Dual Wield vs. 2h parses from current PTS.

  • Daus
    Daus
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    LiquidPony wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    I also believe that 1H bleed damage should be cut in half; only matching the 2H axe bleed when you have 2 equipped.

    Do you ever stop asking for nerfs?

    I ask for buffs too, but a lot of people like to look over that and only focus on the negative.
  • TheNightflame
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    i agree with your comment^ 1handed things need their enchant and trait cut in half, but 2h should get their weapon passive buffed to twice what 1h is currently
  • daedemrwb17_ESO
    Wrecking Blow: Reduce enemy physical resistance by 1000 for 5 seconds. Can stack up to 3 times. (Enemy debuff)

    Yes please. I hated the change to NMG and Sunderflame meant that Stam DPS couldn't optimize for the group. We all just switched to the lover and built selfishly.

    3k resists is just about the bonus from the lover. I could see swapping back to the warrior or the thief (for 2H builds who need the crit) and just putting a few more points into piercing.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    Nothing on this in the new pts. Would be nice to get acknowledgement of this.
  • Elsterchen
    Elsterchen
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    From latest PTS ...
    Item Sets

    Arms of Relequen: Fixed an issue where the damage over time effect from this Item Set could proc other abilities and Item Sets that trigger on melee damage.

    ... guess its fixed now.
    Well, I suppose I wasn't the only one wondering why 2 trial sets and master weapons are "necessary" to conduct a balancing experiment that aims at changing combat balance for whole weapon lines. For exemplary use rather stick to sets that give flat stats -> its much easier to follow argument when one doesn't need to extrapolate (player-)skill * stacking damage +/- lag/system performance. ... and in effect results may just be less severe
  • Kanar
    Kanar
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    Elsterchen wrote: »
    From latest PTS ...
    Item Sets

    Arms of Relequen: Fixed an issue where the damage over time effect from this Item Set could proc other abilities and Item Sets that trigger on melee damage.

    ... guess its fixed now.
    Well, I suppose I wasn't the only one wondering why 2 trial sets and master weapons are "necessary" to conduct a balancing experiment that aims at changing combat balance for whole weapon lines. For exemplary use rather stick to sets that give flat stats -> its much easier to follow argument when one doesn't need to extrapolate (player-)skill * stacking damage +/- lag/system performance. ... and in effect results may just be less severe

    I must be missing something because your post makes zero sense in the context of DW vs 2h DPS.
  • Sevn
    Sevn
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    katorga wrote: »
    How about it is not supposed to be 100% balanced? DW is the dps weapon, 2H, the burst weapon, 1HS the tanking weapon. This is like complaining that fire staff is unbalanced because it does more single target damage than lightning or ice.

    Buff bow.

    This is my opinion also. Nobody questions that you MUST have a bow back barred on a stam build to produce effective DPS. If DW/Bow and 2H/Bow should be equal, why not 2H/DW as well? The problem is not that these weapons don't all produce identical DPS output in every combination, but that ZOS does not inform players from the outset what each weapon excels at and consequently people become attached to their weapon of choice before learning whether or not it is effective in the content they enjoy playing.

    My issue is that I'm tired of being a sheep amongst the herd, running the same setup as every other stam dps, regardless of the class it's dw/bow or go home. Fine for others, but I'd rather not be forced to follow the crowd while still being more than viable running all content.

    That's just a terrible design for combat.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
    -Hemingway
  • Facefister
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    It has nothing to do with being a sheep, DW+vMA will deliver better results. Especially the vMA bow with hail on AoE trash is literally a nuke. I also wished there would be more options like DW+2H, with 2H bar being a buffer+debuffer and DW bar your main source of damage. But hey, our main source of damage is hail and relequen...
  • ccmedaddy
    ccmedaddy
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    Now that FM has been nerfed I really hope ZOS takes a look at balancing 2H and DW in terms of DPS.

    Mostly cuz I already have an Advancing Yokeda 2H sword and I can't really be bothered to farm the 1h daggers. :bawling:
    dunmer magblade - flawless conquerer
    argonian mag/stam warden - flawless conquerer
    argonian templar - flawless conquerer
    dunmer magdk - flawless conquerer
    altmer magsorc - flawless conquerer
    orc werewolf stamsorc - flawless conquerer
    orc stamplar - flawless conquerer
    redguard stamblade - flawless conquerer
    argonian stamdk - lvl 3, lost forever in coldharbor
  • usmcjdking
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Call me old fashioned but I'm of the opinion that 2H PVE should be balanced around the strength of Wrecking Blow and not weapon passives or enchants.


    Some quick fixes to 2H that, IMO, would bring it in line with DW.

    Reverse Slash: Logarithmic function instead of standard scaling function. It needs to cap earlier at it's maximum (cap damage at 12-15%) or have a higher total multiplier to accommodate.

    Wrecking Blow: Reduce enemy physical resistance by 1000 for 5 seconds. Can stack up to 3 times. (Enemy debuff)
    OR
    Wrecking Blow: Increase all damage from 2H skills by 10% for 5 seconds. Can stack up to 3 times. (Self buff)

    Option 1 on Wrecking Blow gives it a place in raids where it gains significant raid utility. Option 2 vastly increases the damage burst with execute combos.

    0331
    0602
  • Sevn
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    Facefister wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with being a sheep, DW+vMA will deliver better results. Especially the vMA bow with hail on AoE trash is literally a nuke. I also wished there would be more options like DW+2H, with 2H bar being a buffer+debuffer and DW bar your main source of damage. But hey, our main source of damage is hail and relequen...

    If you are forced to run the exact same set up as every other stam dps you are part of the herd and a black sheep if you decide to buck the system using a 2h. You seem to have taken a general statement as a direct insult to the players which it was not. This is all on Zos.
    Edited by Sevn on October 9, 2018 12:58AM
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
    -Hemingway
  • Marshall1289
    Marshall1289
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    Always with nerfs, how come staves are fine then?

    They need to figure out a way to target 2h and bows pve dps to make them on par and the easiest way is tweaking some of the passives, skills and light attack/heavy attack DMG. NOT nerfing how DW enchants behave or how well the traits are. DW just has better skills and passives.

    Also in your parse, it looks like using the 2h execute was equal to just simply using more biting jabs, maybe that slot could of been filled with a fighters guild skill for 3% more weapon dmg and a simpler rotation. The execute is too weak too.
  • Facefister
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    Sevn wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with being a sheep, DW+vMA will deliver better results. Especially the vMA bow with hail on AoE trash is literally a nuke. I also wished there would be more options like DW+2H, with 2H bar being a buffer+debuffer and DW bar your main source of damage. But hey, our main source of damage is hail and relequen...

    If you are forced to run the exact same set up as every other stam dps you are part of the herd and a black sheep if you decide to buck the system using a 2h. You seem to have taken a general statement as a direct insult to the players which it was not. This is all on Zos.
    We could discuss about who is a sheep and who is not but sadly, dw+bow is the best option and will straight up deliver the best results. Believe me when I say that I would love to play bow+bow or dw+2h with similiar performance. As long as ZoS is cozy about the current meta, we have to play it if we want to have good results.
  • Sevn
    Sevn
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    Facefister wrote: »
    Sevn wrote: »
    Facefister wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with being a sheep, DW+vMA will deliver better results. Especially the vMA bow with hail on AoE trash is literally a nuke. I also wished there would be more options like DW+2H, with 2H bar being a buffer+debuffer and DW bar your main source of damage. But hey, our main source of damage is hail and relequen...

    If you are forced to run the exact same set up as every other stam dps you are part of the herd and a black sheep if you decide to buck the system using a 2h. You seem to have taken a general statement as a direct insult to the players which it was not. This is all on Zos.
    We could discuss about who is a sheep and who is not but sadly, dw+bow is the best option and will straight up deliver the best results. Believe me when I say that I would love to play bow+bow or dw+2h with similiar performance. As long as ZoS is cozy about the current meta, we have to play it if we want to have good results.

    Though it was meant as no insult to the players for having their hands forced you seem really stuck on that sheep comment so I'll rephrase my post. I believe the point of this thread is to balance out the two so those of us who'd rather not play like everyone else can still complete the same content with similar but not better results.

    My sentiments are as long as we accept that Dw/bow is the only way to play nothing will ever change. I'm sick of dw/bow after 3years. Don't really understand how anyone could just be happy doing the same ole same, year after year. If I played my mag toons more regularly I'd be pushing for a new magical item like a one handed rune or one handed wand as something as simple as seeing a new combat animation would go a long way versus the same Fire/lightning staff combo, but I guess most mag players are content with it.
    There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man, true nobility is being superior to your former self
    -Hemingway
  • EpicRekkoning
    EpicRekkoning
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    Facefister wrote: »
    We could discuss about who is a sheep and who is not but sadly, dw+bow is the best option and will straight up deliver the best results. Believe me when I say that I would love to play bow+bow or dw+2h with similiar performance. As long as ZoS is cozy about the current meta, we have to play it if we want to have good results.

    I came across this thread the other day and it got me thinking of a 2H/Dual wield build (I know it's not the intent of the thread, but my testing shows underperformance of the 2H compared to vMA endless hail). I also recently came up with a bow/bow build on my stam sorc that hits for 27k without relequen or a puncture, but you have to play it like a melee class (up close and personal).

    I wanted to do some testing to see how much more powerful vMA bow with endless hail is compared to a Master battleaxe with brawler. Why a master weapon? I knew the bow would more than like out perform the 2H weapon, brawler is the only dot on the 2H tree, and I felt like the initial damage bonus from the master weapon and bleed damage would give the best opportunity to compete.

    For the test, I removed my monster set, reset all CP, took the poison enchant off my bow (stam recovery enchant on both), maxed the passives for both 2H and bow, and kept all other skills on the bar the same (reduce as many variables as possible without being completely naked and resetting all of my skills). I took a screenshot of the character sheet for both the bow and the 2H. Long story short, endless hail with the vMA bow does about 2-3k more dps on average than brawler with a master weapon (only hitting one target) per cast. This would be different if multiple targets are present, but when fighting bosses, most of the time, you're only attacking a single target.

    Before the stats, some of you may be asking, "why bother with this?" My idea is based in the rotation that you will see below. Essentially, you start with your backbar as a 2H and front bar dual wield. Apply your dots and use crushing weapon/light attack as your spammable (dual wield bar). Once you're at 25%, your front bar "switches" and instead of spamming crushing/la, you spam executioner/la. The concept would give classes without an execution a spammable one, while maintaining the damage output of the dual wield weapons for 75% of the bosses health (this will probably work better on a stam dk than stam sorc). I haven't dps tested this yet because I first wanted to see what I'm losing with the vMA bow and this just goes to show how much stronger this one bow is in PvE.

    With Bow:
    (Once I figure out how to attach my screenshots, I'll drop them in here)

    With 2H:
    (Once I figure out how to attach my screenshots, I'll drop them in here)

    Body: Relequen
    Jewelry: Agility
    Monster: Stormfist
    Weapon 1: Dual Wield Master
    Weapon 2: VMA 2h
    I'm thinking dagger/axe and battleaxe for the added bleed damage, but I want to look at swords too. I'm going Master/VMA because I want to see the damage output with these weapons.

    Dual wield: Dawnbreaker
    Bound armaments, hurricane, crushing weapon, rending slash, (dark deal/ beast trap for weapon damage/ deadly cloak for damage mitigation)

    2H: Atro
    Bound armaments, caltrops, beast trap, brawler, executioner,

    The rotation is where its at:

    Barkbar starts with the 2H:
    Caltrops, la, beast trap, la, brawler, bar swap

    Dual wield
    Hurricane, la, rending slash, la, 5 x (crushing weapon, la), bar swap

    Keep doing this until the boss is at 25% health. When that happens, dont fo the 5 x crushing weapon, la. Instead, bar swap and do 5 x executioner, la.

    So basically, you start with the 2h as your backbar and dual wield your front bar, but when the boss hits 25%, the 2h becomes your front bar and dual wield your backbar. This allows you to keep the damage of the dual wield setup and gives stam sorcs a spammable execution skill.
  • Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
    Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
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    @EpicRekkoning try dual wield as the back bar, you get 2 dots from it, cloak and blood craze. Cloak will proc the enchantments from the front bar as well. Using the master dual wield, you get a stronger bleed, this will give you more DPS then the master 2h. So have the regular set up, something like this, on a sorc-

    Front bar, nirn 2h ax weapon damage enchantment-

    Bound armaments, hurricane, reverse slice, brawler, crushing weapon, ulti Dawnbreaker.

    Dual axes infused axes, one poison one aborb Stam. Daul axes to maximize the axe bleed chance from the back bar.

    Surge, Trap, clatrops, deadly cloak, blood craze, ulti atro.

    Something like that seems like it would be better.
    Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on December 31, 2018 4:58AM
  • EpicRekkoning
    EpicRekkoning
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    @EpicRekkoning try dual wield as the back bar, you get 2 dots from it, cloak and blood craze. Cloak will proc the enchantments from the front bar as well. Using the master dual wield, you get a stronger bleed, this will give you more DPS then the master 2h. So have the regular set up, something like this, on a sorc-

    Front bar, nirn 2h ax-

    Bound armaments, hurricane, reverse slice, brawler, crushing weapon, ulti Dawnbreaker

    Surge, Trap, clatrops, deadly cloak, blood craze, ulti atro.

    Something like that seems like it would be better.

    I'll give it a try. Thanks for the advice!
  • Nolic1
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    Its a whole 3 to 4k in damage and were is the problem its so minor its almost nothing when your talking 44k to 40k in total dps now if it was 10k to 15k difference I would say yeah its bad and need to be looked at. You all are chasing to many numbers to see right in front of you this should not matter.
    Edited by Nolic1 on January 3, 2019 2:46AM
  • EpicRekkoning
    EpicRekkoning
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    Nolic1 wrote: »
    Its a whole 3 to 4k in damage and were is the problem its so minor its almost nothing when your talking 44k to 40k in total dps now if it was 10k to 15k difference I would say yeah its bad and need to be looked at. You all are chasing to many numbers to see right in front of you this should not matter.

    I completely agree. I've been playing around with different builds on my stam sorc lately (my main) because I got sick of the standard dual wield/bow build. At max CP with non trial gear, I've been able to hit ~30k on multiple setups so far (bow/now and multiple 2h/dw setups). There's definitely min/max builds, but I think you can still do a lot with the proper gear and CP.
  • Nolic1
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    Nolic1 wrote: »
    Its a whole 3 to 4k in damage and were is the problem its so minor its almost nothing when your talking 44k to 40k in total dps now if it was 10k to 15k difference I would say yeah its bad and need to be looked at. You all are chasing to many numbers to see right in front of you this should not matter.

    I completely agree. I've been playing around with different builds on my stam sorc lately (my main) because I got sick of the standard dual wield/bow build. At max CP with non trial gear, I've been able to hit ~30k on multiple setups so far (bow/now and multiple 2h/dw setups). There's definitely min/max builds, but I think you can still do a lot with the proper gear and CP.

    Oh I agree with the proper gear and CP you can do alot of things when it comes to builds.
    Edited by Nolic1 on January 5, 2019 2:58AM
  • BrokenGameMechanics
    Masel wrote: »
    Hey!
    I will present this to the devs in hope of getting the weapons more in line.

    Actually you've made a pretty strong case reminding us that DW has yet to be compensated for the huge 5-5-2 nerf it took when a 2-H weapon counts as 2 weapons. Yea, go figure. Basically 2-H got the equivalent of a "free" Automaton, or Hundings, or ??? etc, etc. Which is fine, but DW was never adjusted accordly. So really a massive nerf to the DW line right there.

    Second, if you look at DW line it doesn't have much in the way of "effects". Basically bleed, small and brief slow, a AoE damage mitigation and Major Brutality Buff across the entire skill line. 2H FM alone has as much "effects" as the entire DW line. Plus it has been carefully designed to be a line as whole which is hard to "proc" (dot-ish, non-bursty) the really good melee stuff at any kind of decent rate, if at all. e.g. Selene's or a Ravagers etc.

    You can't just itemize the differences that contribute in DPS and ask for them to be equalized without looking at ALL differences between DW and 2H and asking for ALL of them to be equalized. But then what is the point of having 0 differences?

    So let's think it all the way through together.

    So if you want to make them have the EXACTLY the same DPS (why? for god's sake) then you also _have_ to do the following:
    • Nerf or remove ALL 2-H Buffs/DeBuffs, Stuns and Knockbacks to be EXACTLY the same as the DW line.
    • Ensure the DW line is adjusted to allow it to proc EXACTLY the same kind of melee Monster and Amor Sets at exactly the same rate as 2-H.
    • As folks such as yourself will then complain that "yes, the DPS is the same on a dummy, but in PvP the 2-H is "slower" to hit in PvP, so that needs to be fixed."
    • Etc, etc.

    So mission accomplished the DW line and the 2H line is exactly the same in all respects, so obviously we need just eliminate one. So in effect you are asking the devs to elimate either DW or 2H.

    Basically what we have now is DW -> pure damage, mostly dot-ish and a few modest effects, 2-H slightly less damage, but pure burst, direct melee, procs more "good" stuff, has a rich set of effects, CC's and CC immunities, non of which the DW line have. This is called choice with trade-offs. And is exactly what the Dev's should be offering. If you want higher DPS then you should use DW and not 2H. BUT if you then say, "but now I'll lose ..", well that is the point.

    If you really want to have the damage be EXACTLY the same DPS, you asking for the 2H line to receive a massive overhaul that at a minimum would require a lot of non-damage nerfing. e.g. Bye, bye to that Stun and Knockback, and CC immunity, and FM and ...

    Let me put it this way:

    Drop forward momentum from the 2H line and I for one would happily, happily give you 2.5K DPS in compensation. I would PAY the developer's salaries for that change to occur. So I'm actually on board with your request.


    Edited by BrokenGameMechanics on January 7, 2019 4:31PM
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