The Dual wielding meta problem

Khivas_Carrick · January 2019

I actually had a big ass write up too updating the rest of the passives and such to make them better and actually more viable fir pve, lemme see if I can find it

rafaelcsmaia · January 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Easy fix, make 1h weapons have enchants halved.

Make one of the SnB passives double enchantment power so tanks and the pve crowd wont cry.

Or just leave one handed halved and you give more incentive to run an ice staff.

Good point, ice staves need some love

Khivas_Carrick · January 2019

Here we go, found it. Note that the discussion had in that thread made it so that certain things would not be feasible, such as buffing Carve and what not.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5708298/#Comment_5708298

However, changing up the passives and Wrecking Blow would make 2H different to play while also being as powerful as DW, just with a different feel, a Speed VS Power difference, if you will.

Thoughts?

SodanTok · January 2019

I have more to say about 2h (or well bows) when it comes to 'DW meta problem' but 2H is different (than bows or DW or staves). It is AoE beast but ZoS rarely makes content where it can shine. Blackrose prison, vDSA and trial trashpacks are the only places for 2H. I always feel 2H should be the AoE melee weapon and ZoS should make AoE more relevant in endgame. 2H doesnt need to be as good as DW in single target.

But it does need some QoL fixes and changes. Like having instant cast (and preferably AoE) spammable. Like not having passive based on heavy attack, like having the best possible weapon bonus for AoE after penetration - crit. And so on...

Zelos · January 2019

killmove wrote: »

I think the biggest issue comes from the enchant bonus that is too OP for DW builds.
A good way to balance this and in order to make 2H builds more viable, I think ZOS should reduce the enchant bonus the way it's applied to small and big pieces in armors.
maybe 50% of the enchant bonus
to be discussed...

The problem isnt dual wield it's a power creep. CP is so high you no longer have to choose between burst damage or sustained damage you can have both along with survival:)

Thorstienn · January 2019

SodanTok wrote: »

I have more to say about 2h (or well bows) when it comes to 'DW meta problem' but 2H is different (than bows or DW or staves). It is AoE beast but ZoS rarely makes content where it can shine. Blackrose prison, vDSA and trial trashpacks are the only places for 2H. I always feel 2H should be the AoE melee weapon and ZoS should make AoE more relevant in endgame. 2H doesnt need to be as good as DW in single target.

But it does need some QoL fixes and changes. Like having instant cast (and preferably AoE) spammable. Like not having passive based on heavy attack, like having the best possible weapon bonus for AoE after penetration - crit. And so on...

I pretty much agree with this.
Besides content though, they also went all wierd and gave DW steel tornado and shrouded daggers, which ruins it anyway.

IonicKai · January 2019

El_Borracho wrote: »

IonicKai wrote: »

I think the OP means that there isn't an option that can beat out duel wield because of this and that is a problem because it hinders build diversity.

Except, as usual with these boards, the "diversity" is to make everything perform the same. That is not diversity, that's cosmetics.

DW is only en vogue because people complained about the lack of diversity when 2H heavy attack builds were the meta. This is what happens when people constantly complain about meta and variety. They get a new meta and more variety, then demand that everything go back to the way it was.

I was not stating my stance but clarifying the OP to someone who suggested it wasn't an issue.

My stance on it is more along the lines of there shouldn't be only one way that gives up nothing to be the end game high damage. I think 2H should get a buff for PvE content by maybe adjusting some of the morphs and passives not a nerf to dual wield. I have actually been quite frustrated with ZOS stance of just nerf things to fix the issue instead of assessing how to bring other options into a more usful state. The only time they achieved this was Summerset and they followed that with most a massive nerf in Murkmire.

Edit: I think 2H should at least be better at something that is useful in PvE when compared to dual wield but it loses in pretty much every category right now except maybe execute against a single target but even that is debatable.

idk · January 2019

usmcjdking wrote: »

If you cut down the effectiveness of enchants then they need to be able to be stacked, or cut the effectiveness of S&B to match.

This is a good observation. The shield is the largest piece of armor we can equip. To reduce the the effectiveness of DW enchants would require an impact with S&B.

El_Borracho · January 2019

@IonicKai That makes a bit more sense. I've had enough of these boards calling for others builds to be brought down to some artificial level with every patch, DLC, etc. So maybe a little knee-jerk in my response.

Relequen wasn't necessarily the cause for the DW takeover, but it cemented it. 2 daggers, or dagger/axe, plus Selene's (at the time) was amazingly easy to put out tons of damage for stamina builds. Then AY was rediscovered and that was the end of whatever hope 2H had. Even though, on paper, 2H should work with a Relequen/AY setup.

If you want to bring 2H back to viability in PVE, the easiest way to do so is not nerfing DW or reworking enchantments. It would be for ZOS make a armor set akin to Relequen that is 2H melee specific. Maybe something that has splash damage PROC to make up for the lack of a decent AoE. It wouldn't ruin DW and it keeps 2H a separate style of play, without making it a Skyrim button masher.

Qbiken · January 2019

Zelos wrote: »

killmove wrote: »

I think the biggest issue comes from the enchant bonus that is too OP for DW builds.
A good way to balance this and in order to make 2H builds more viable, I think ZOS should reduce the enchant bonus the way it's applied to small and big pieces in armors.
maybe 50% of the enchant bonus
to be discussed...

The problem isnt dual wield it's a power creep. CP is so high you no longer have to choose between burst damage or sustained damage you can have both along with survival:)

You can easily have that in no cp as well. CP has little to do with the so called power creep you see.

Jabbs_Giggity · January 2019

CompM4s wrote: »

I still see plenty of really good players that run 2h over dw...

The reasons that I see 2H being used over DW is purely speculative upon Class. Using DW over 2H means you are dropping Major Brutality because you can get it from Class Skill > Sorc, DK and Warden. Also, using DW over 2H means you are dropping the spammable 2H option > Dizzy Swing because you can get it from Class Skills > DK Venomous Claw, NB Surprise Attack and Warden Cliff Racer or Sub Assault.
This given you are running the Meta Bow back bar. You cannot optimally run DW/Bow or SNB on a Stamina Templar or Stamina NB because you are giving too much up by dropping skills from 2H line that you cannot make up for with Class skills.

Sure you can run Major Brutality pots, but this can severely limit a player by tracking the downtime on a potion versus slotting a skill that can provide 100% up-time. I would like to see DW get Major Brutality in the form of a self-buff versus having to have a target in range (Same goes for Major Sorcery given from limited options outside specific Class Skills > Entropy)

With 2H you also have access to a Gap Closer (Not available on all classes or DW line) and an Execute (Not available on all classes *Stamina Morphs, but available on DW that no one uses, or uses rarely for lack of build diversity)

Khivas_Carrick · January 2019

Again, the best bet for fixing any slights 2H has is to buff 2H, not nerf DW. Best way to buff 2H is to fix it's passives. I say fix as opposed to buff because as of right now, they literally do not work with how this game has been changed to.

Forceful: Keep the initial part where 3 nearby enemies take 25/50% of the primary target's damage from Light and Heavy attacks, but lower it to 15/30%. Add in a second part where Critical Strikes with a 2H have a 10/20% chance to cause an enemy to bleed for X Damage over Y Seconds. This will work closely with the next passive change suggestion.

Heavy Weapons: Minor yet huge reworks based on the previous change. Note these changes would also affect DW as well. Only fair, right?

- Swords increased Damage and Attack Speed by 2.5/5% <---This would be for Light and Heavy Attacks only.

- Axes Increase Critical Strike Chance by 5/10% <--- Idk what the rate is with daggers, but the idea is to competitively match it. Yes I am aware axes and daggers for DW would also have to change. My idea is to have Daggers increase Crit Damage instead, that way you get to weigh what you want; more crit chance, or more crit damage.

- Maces ignore 10/20% of an enemy's armor and have a 2.5/5% chance to knock an enemy off balance with light and heavy attacks.<--- Legit could not think of anything else for this tbh lol

Follow Up: Time to make it a bit more friendly to current meta and content.

- Follow Up: Increases Heavy Attack Damage by 15/30%, and it's old effect now works for the next skill used (as opposed to next direct damage done). Makes using a Heavy Attack as a 2H user feel like it's worth something other than simply regaining stamina, and would add a different way to play to the game. Or it might be ass, idk, literally almost anything is better than what it currently is though.

Battle Rush: Great idea, terrible way to get to it. In overland it's great, in literally anything else, it's kinda garbage. You're not promised adds to kill in most encounters, and frankly more often than not you need that Stam recovery a whole lot sooner than after you killed the enemy lol

To that end, I suggest:

- Battle Rush: Critically Striking an enemy grants you 20% increased Stamina Recovery and Minor Expedition for 10 sec. Can occur once every 20 Seconds.

The entire idea behind these reworks is to basically make a player feel like Guts from Berserk.

While also feeling like Elder Scrolls and being fair.

Weps · January 2019

There is no DW meta issue imho, there is only a brainless-AoE-execute-with-huge-range-spam issue.
If we're talking about PvP.

If we're talking about PvE then it's more complex and it shouldn't be an issue because, even if you can play however you want, you shouldn't be able to perform as well with any kind of setup you want. Otherwise why are we not looking at how underperforming the S&B + Resto combo is

Vapirko · January 2019

It’s not a DW meta problem. It’s a 2H isn’t very good problem. DW is fine as it is. Why do you want it nerfed, I can’t put it lightly that’s jsut stupid.

Azurya · January 2019

killmove wrote: »

I think the biggest issue comes from the enchant bonus that is too OP for DW builds.
A good way to balance this and in order to make 2H builds more viable, I think ZOS should reduce the enchant bonus the way it's applied to small and big pieces in armors.
maybe 50% of the enchant bonus
to be discussed...

really doesn´t have any records on ever being killed by DW-abilities in the last 3 years or so in cyrodil. And I don´t see anybody running DW in any Vet-Raid I am in. I see lots of magicka stuff, that are players with staffs in all content.
And running few builds myself with stamina and DW, I can say it is a pain to bring them up to be a highlight in PvP as well as in PVE. So instead of bringing up the question of a NERF to DW, I would like to plea for a rework on dmg output for stamina users.
Get me right, using magicka as your main resource is so easy(I run multiple chars using magicka), the dmg-output is insane and easy to accomplish. Therefor as you look at stamina, it is a harddays-work all the time.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2019

Azurya wrote: »

killmove wrote: »

I think the biggest issue comes from the enchant bonus that is too OP for DW builds.
A good way to balance this and in order to make 2H builds more viable, I think ZOS should reduce the enchant bonus the way it's applied to small and big pieces in armors.
maybe 50% of the enchant bonus
to be discussed...

really doesn´t have any records on ever being killed by DW-abilities in the last 3 years or so in cyrodil. And I don´t see anybody running DW in any Vet-Raid I am in. I see lots of magicka stuff, that are players with staffs in all content.
And running few builds myself with stamina and DW, I can say it is a pain to bring them up to be a highlight in PvP as well as in PVE. So instead of bringing up the question of a NERF to DW, I would like to plea for a rework on dmg output for stamina users.
Get me right, using magicka as your main resource is so easy(I run multiple chars using magicka), the dmg-output is insane and easy to accomplish. Therefor as you look at stamina, it is a harddays-work all the time.

what kind of palyera are you playing against/with then? dw gets plenty of use see-

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/449781/steel-tornado/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/441068/please-nerf-steel-tornado-and-associated-passive-slaughter-and-rework-bleeds

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/449801/no-one-should-have-this-much-power

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av4RyEvWVsk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bOrcApplWA

Khivas_Carrick · January 2019

Azurya wrote: »

killmove wrote: »

I think the biggest issue comes from the enchant bonus that is too OP for DW builds.
A good way to balance this and in order to make 2H builds more viable, I think ZOS should reduce the enchant bonus the way it's applied to small and big pieces in armors.
maybe 50% of the enchant bonus
to be discussed...

really doesn´t have any records on ever being killed by DW-abilities in the last 3 years or so in cyrodil. And I don´t see anybody running DW in any Vet-Raid I am in. I see lots of magicka stuff, that are players with staffs in all content.
And running few builds myself with stamina and DW, I can say it is a pain to bring them up to be a highlight in PvP as well as in PVE. So instead of bringing up the question of a NERF to DW, I would like to plea for a rework on dmg output for stamina users.
Get me right, using magicka as your main resource is so easy(I run multiple chars using magicka), the dmg-output is insane and easy to accomplish. Therefor as you look at stamina, it is a harddays-work all the time.

Bruh, what? DW is like the go to for stamina in Vet Content for most people. It's all most people want because it's all they think can do DPS when you're stamina lol That said, I'm in the "Don't Nerf It" Camp, and in fact in my proposal for fixing 2H passives, DW ones would also be updated and technically buffed.

Weps wrote: »

There is no DW meta issue imho, there is only a brainless-AoE-execute-with-huge-range-spam issue.
If we're talking about PvP.

If we're talking about PvE then it's more complex and it shouldn't be an issue because, even if you can play however you want, you shouldn't be able to perform as well with any kind of setup you want. Otherwise why are we not looking at how underperforming the S&B + Resto combo is

There's always going to be discrepancy between builds and classes and such, and that's more than ok, but the idea isn't to have them be so damn big lol A little behind: good. Way behind: bad.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

There's always going to be discrepancy between builds and classes and such, and that's more than ok, but the idea isn't to have them be so damn big lol A little behind: good. Way behind: bad.

How big is too big? 2H is some 10% behind as of last fall: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438626/dual-wield-vs-2h-parses-from-current-pts/p1 - not a small difference, but not terribly big either. To compensate, 2H has more AoE damage, but I'd agree that current content doesn't emphasize AoE enough for it to matter.

Khivas_Carrick · January 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

There's always going to be discrepancy between builds and classes and such, and that's more than ok, but the idea isn't to have them be so damn big lol A little behind: good. Way behind: bad.

How big is too big? 2H is some 10% behind as of last fall: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438626/dual-wield-vs-2h-parses-from-current-pts/p1 - not a small difference, but not terribly big either. To compensate, 2H has more AoE damage, but I'd agree that current content doesn't emphasize AoE enough for it to matter.

I would call 10% too big, imho, even with our numbers and that translating to roughly 4k. 5% would be way better and personally my maximum distance allowed for the purposes of dealing damage.

Looking at the reasons that guy stated though, I'm still not sure if nerfing DW would be the wisest choice of action, not when you can (as I repeat once again, le sigh) update/buff 2H passive skills and/or simply raise the damage of 2H and watch as most of the problems are suddenly solved lol

Truth be told, I really do wonder why the Devs went with this game design when they all know nobody wants a specific weapon beholden ONLY to a specific part of the game, i.e DW for PvE, 2H for PvP. They want both weapons viable for both arenas this game offers.

It really isn't that hard to grant it to us lol

BUT I will openly admit that I like how 2H grants me way more survivability for the 4man Content I am fond of running while still maintaining passable DPS for said content lol

Like you said, there are strengths to 2H that ZoS does not build much for, but at the same time it's not like DW can't do AoE just as well if not better due to it's own AoE and Class Skills.

For now, if I were both ZoS and the Playerbase, I would put a far larger emphasis on updating/buffing the Passive Skills of 2H and 2H's base damage to be more than DW's, while changing DW's base attack speed to be faster but leaving it's weapon damage the same.

Khivas_Carrick · January 2019

Oh and by the way, 2H's passive cleave isn't actually that strong, and it's skill actually called Cleave is great but not as potent as Steel Tornado, which acts as a true AoE execute on top of receiving the bonus from DW's passives.

Reverse Slice is only better if the grouping is tighter than a prisoner's bootyhole.

Emmagoldman · January 2019

I think if dizzyswing's speed was slighty increased, and i mean slightly, it would be in balance (pvp)