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After Strife cost increase, there is no reason why it's still reflectable

likecats
likecats
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Six or so odd patches ago force pulse was made unreflectable while strife was not. One of the big reason for this decision was that strife was almost half the cost of force pulse so it was a reasonable trade-off. But over the PTS iteration cycles, ZOS increased the cost for strife multiple times that it is now exactly the same cost force pulse.
I'd appreciate if ZOS would rebalance strife to be unreflectable this DLC.

I would just like to list the pros of both abilities to demonstrate that strife doesn't have much going for it so that's its reflectable while force pulse is not.
Considering the fact reflectability is overwhelmingly pvp related, I'd appreciate if commentators do not try to use PVE reasons to derail this thread.

Strife:
- SImilar damage and same cost as force pulse.
- Provides a weak HOT in PVP.
- (Passive) Gives 8% max magicka to have at least one ability slotted from this tree line. (so not necessarily strife)
- (Passive) Gives 3% healing done on bar slotted.
- (Passive) Generates 2 ultimate every 4 second for activating an ability from this tree. (so not necessarily strife)

Force Pulse:
- Similar damage and same cost as strife.
- Has a chance to proc all three status effects (fire, ice, shock).
- (Passive) Gives 8% single target damage while having at least one ability slotted from tree line. (so not necessarily force pulse, also assuming person is using inferno staff)
- (Passive) Has 10% spell penetration.
- (Passive) Gives 3600 magicka if a desto ability kills target.
- UNREFLECTABLE

Comparing the passives, both strife and force pulse give similar stat bonuses, expect for the outlier that Force Pulse is unreflectable. Before the cost increase this difference was justified because strife was significantly cheaper than force pulse (almost half the cost).

So why not just use force pulse?

I for one appreciate different classes using different skills and think homogenising classes is the wrong way for this game to go. On my magblade I like the feeling of playing a blood mage, and strife is the best skill to symbolise that. There is no reason for it to have a major disadvantage over no perceivable reason. Once again, I hope ZOS makes this skill unreflectable to be more consistent with force pulse this PTS cycle.
  • Tonturri
    Tonturri
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    Strife:
    - SImilar damage and same cost as force pulse.
    - Provides a weak HOT in PVP. - the HoT is far from weak.
    - (Passive) Gives 8% max magicka to have at least one ability slotted from this tree line. (so not necessarily strife) - not insignificant. Depending on how you set up your bars, this can be very important.
    - (Passive) Gives 3% healing done on bar slotted.
    - (Passive) Generates 2 ultimate every 4 second for activating an ability from this tree. (so not necessarily strife) - what other siphon skill are you gonna be using as often as strife?

    Force Pulse:
    - Similar damage and same cost as strife. - lower damage/burst/pressure/whatever potential, at least in pvp, due to being split into three different damage components. Three different things you need to crit.
    - Has a chance to proc all three status effects (fire, ice, shock). - fair
    - (Passive) Gives 8% single target damage while having at least one ability slotted from tree line. (so not necessarily force pulse, also assuming person is using inferno staff) - Strife can also benefit from the dmg increase if the NB is using a destro staff. This isn't something /only/ Pulse can benefit from
    - (Passive) Has 10% spell penetration. - fair
    - (Passive) Gives 3600 magicka if a desto ability kills target. - negligible. You won't be killing anyone with any destro staff ability unless for whatever reason you've chosen to forgo an execute.
    - UNREFLECTABLE

    Magicka nightblades definitely need some help in regards to being near totally shut down against reflects, but I don't think strife is the way to do it. One could almost say they need some mechanical changes similar to the way shields needed to be changed - not nerfed or buffed, but changed.
    Edited by Tonturri on September 30, 2018 11:35PM
  • likecats
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    Tonturri wrote: »
    Strife:
    - SImilar damage and same cost as force pulse.
    - Provides a weak HOT in PVP. - the HoT is far from weak.
    - (Passive) Gives 8% max magicka to have at least one ability slotted from this tree line. (so not necessarily strife) - not insignificant. Depending on how you set up your bars, this can be very important.
    - (Passive) Gives 3% healing done on bar slotted.
    - (Passive) Generates 2 ultimate every 4 second for activating an ability from this tree. (so not necessarily strife) - what other siphon skill are you gonna be using as often as strife?

    Force Pulse:
    - Similar damage and same cost as strife. - lower damage/burst/pressure/whatever potential, at least in pvp, due to being split into three different damage components. Three different things you need to crit.
    - Has a chance to proc all three status effects (fire, ice, shock). - fair
    - (Passive) Gives 8% single target damage while having at least one ability slotted from tree line. (so not necessarily force pulse, also assuming person is using inferno staff) - Strife can also benefit from the dmg increase if the NB is using a destro staff. This isn't something /only/ Pulse can benefit from
    - (Passive) Has 10% spell penetration. - fair
    - (Passive) Gives 3600 magicka if a desto ability kills target. - negligible. You won't be killing anyone with any destro staff ability unless for whatever reason you've chosen to forgo an execute.
    - UNREFLECTABLE

    Magicka nightblades definitely need some help in regards to being near totally shut down against reflects, but I don't think strife is the way to do it. One could almost say they need some mechanical changes similar to the way shields needed to be changed - not nerfed or buffed, but changed.

    I'm not sure what you would classify the hot if not weak, it's not irrelevant, but you can never count on it as a reasonable heal like you could on say vigor, mutagen or troll king (even tho that's health recovery). It's on par with momentum ticks at best, which I would also consider a weak hot. In PVE, i'd agree the strife hot is quite strong, but reflects are a pvp discussion.

    The point is even if you are spamming strife, you would never get significant ulti from that passive if you are doing a standard pvp rotation. At best you will get 4 ultimate over 8 seconds if you time everthing perfectly. If you are constantly spamming strife for 8 seconds straight without using other useful siphoning abilities, you're doing something wrong.

    Fair point about the burst potential, but I'd say in general strife is not a very bursty so I'd say the difference is meh, especially considering you have a higher chance on getting some crits on force pulse. I've used both abilities, they feel more or less the same damage wise.

    Strife can benefit from destro staff skill line, but so can force pulse benefit from having a siphoning ability present. I liked how you commented differently for the two pros when exactly same points were made for both.

    I'm not sure why we are nit-picking minute details about either ability which don't make a huge difference overall. They have their small trade-offs and that is good. In short, strife gives slightly more ulti regen, and a weak hot, whereas force pulse gives slightly more damage, and small chance to apply status effects from ice, fire and shock. They both have a similar passive that buffs you when you have one ability from the tree line which you can bypass by adjusting your bars. They both have the same cost. So for what reason should strife not be unreflectable but force pulse should?
    Edited by likecats on October 1, 2018 12:36AM
  • likecats
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    likecats wrote: »
    I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form

    Magblade is nowhere near top tier in any PVP mode aside from dueling. It's easier to 1vX on literally any stam class than a magblade currently. I rarely see any magblades in BG's or open world in general, stam has been meta in PVP for a long while now.

    That aside, can you elaborate why you think strife should not be unreflectable while force pulse is? Making strife unreflectable is not so much a buff (since FP exists), rather it's more about adding flavor to class ability.

    Not looking at mag NB alone, but the class:

    Because NB has the most access to anything than any other class. It really doesn't deserve another ability that is just plain better than the weapon line version

    No class has a ranged unreflectable spammable (not pigeons any more) why should NB?

    It already has access to major evasion outside of a weapon tree (does any other class)

    Access Hots outside of weapon lines, passive resistance, uncomparable mitigation via cloak

    Access to major fracture outside of a weapon line.

    NB has a weakness to reflect, why give NB class access to a complete uncounterable armada?

    All classes have weak points, NB just has the least

    I am not sure what any of that to do with the specific arguments are I provided.
    It's pointless to look at a class a whole, when ZOS has designed the magicka and stamina variant of each class to function very differently in every gamemode.
    For instance, it's perfectly possible for stamwardens to be OP while magwardens to be underpowered, and it is that way in PVP rn.

    Magicka nightblade likewise, plays out very differently in PVE and PVP. And it plays out very differently to stamblade in PVP.
    Making generalized statements of very specific instances where nightblade plays well is ridiculous. Magwardens also have access to very strong buffs if you look at them individually in very specific instances, but as a whole the class is underwhelming. This is a discussion focusing on Magblades in PVP, so you have to make just those points.

    Unless you think magblades are OP in pvp, I'll reask the question you quoted in your reply. You haven't addressed any of my arguments so far, but have randomly ranted on about nightblades in general.
    Edited by likecats on October 1, 2018 12:58AM
  • likecats
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Cause its a projectile. Do us a favor and play DK to see how far wings really gets you. Tiny cap, large cost and so so many unreflectables. Adding another exception is stupid. I do see how it is OP in certain situations being one of those limited hard counter abilities, but until they revamp it completely, its a no.

    You can have unreflectable strife the second all our dots go through your overpowered cloak which makes you invisible, untargetable by any ST whilst in it, forcemisses/stops any en route and suppresses all dots.

    I already rode that train of playing PVP with DK wings. I played stamDK last year from Feb-Aug, and I could easily neutralize if not defeat the best magblades I know. Wings have received multiple buffs since then, and virtually every DK runs wings in BG's, so don't try to imply that they are weak, because they are not.

    That aside, I don't think you addressed any of my points, precisely, why do you think strife should be unreflectable when force pulse is not?
    Edited by likecats on October 1, 2018 1:08AM
  • brandonv516
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Cause its a projectile. Do us a favor and play DK to see how far wings really gets you. Tiny cap, large cost and so so many unreflectables. Adding another exception is stupid. I do see how it is OP in certain situations being one of those limited hard counter abilities, but until they revamp it completely, its a no.

    You can have unreflectable strife the second all our dots go through your overpowered cloak which makes you invisible, untargetable by any ST whilst in it, forcemisses/stops any en route and suppresses all dots.

    Cripple should definitely not be reflected. DKs were given a 2s snare removal with Wings. Cripple a DK, they get immobilized and snared for 4s but they can neutralize it completely. But in it's current state as it's reflected, a MagNB has no snare removal.

    I have a MagDK and I play it in BGs. I backbar Wings and use them in conjunction with Absorb Magic. This allows me to shut down 1 additional projectile. And the cost is not as egregious as you make it out to be. For a StamDK I would say yes.

    I don't see DKs complaining about Templars being able to cast a skill that heals and removes all DoTs. NBs just do it differently (and not even that well against DKs).
  • likecats
    likecats
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    likecats wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Cause its a projectile. Do us a favor and play DK to see how far wings really gets you. Tiny cap, large cost and so so many unreflectables. Adding another exception is stupid. I do see how it is OP in certain situations being one of those limited hard counter abilities, but until they revamp it completely, its a no.

    You can have unreflectable strife the second all our dots go through your overpowered cloak which makes you invisible, untargetable by any ST whilst in it, forcemisses/stops any en route and suppresses all dots.

    I already rode that train of playing PVP with DK wings. I played stamDK last year from Feb-Aug, and I could easily neutralize if not defeat the best magblades I know. Wings have received multiple buffs since then, and virtually every DK runs wings in BG's, so don't try to imply that they are weak, because they are not.

    That aside, I don't think you addressed any of my points, precisely, why do you think strife should be unreflectable when force pulse is not?

    Yeah, in a 1v1. On any NB 1v1 I could easily cloak away too. Or, god forbid, shade+cloak. Bam, neutralized. And you can do that to very nearly every class. Next patch, even other NBs. Shade out of range and disappear. Try using wings to good effect vs the meta magplar, magden, magDK, stamDK, Stamsorc, stamblade, stamden, stamplar. Have fun dropping 4k to reflect a light attack, maybe one dot if you time it well.
    Bonus round: Any non projectile, and even many actual projectiles. Sload, valkyn (cloakable ironically) pulse, ("beam") birb, pet abilities, ballista, meteor.
    Also god forbid you go against multiple players with reflectable abilities, because wings will go down near instantly protecting you from very little.

    As for force pulse. It shouldn't be reflectable either. Its a band aid fix justified by calling it a beam. Strife actually has a little ball that is sent before, though its harder to see after the weave buff, so not a beam or a pull, but a full projectile. Can't make that excuse for it.

    Anyhow, If pulse is better, use it. But for the most part, NBs don't, so there must be some reason to use it. I can't say I like the changes they have done to strife either. Changing the cost was stupid, and now you don't get vitality from the damage morph, which sucks. But this isn't trickle down nerfonomics.

    As I said, I don't like wings. Its a feast or famine terribly balanced skill, but instead of band aiding it. I'd rather a complete revamp. Until then, no more exceptions. Now answer my questions. How would you like it if whip ignored cloak?

    Thank you for a sincere response. At least you clarified with your point that both FP or strife should both be either reflectable or unreflectable.

    I addressed the point about "why not use force pulse" in my OP.

    I agree with almost everything you said in this response especially about wings, it is a one of the worst designed abilities from a balance point of view.
    Edited by likecats on October 1, 2018 1:33AM
  • Tonturri
    Tonturri
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    likecats wrote: »
    Tonturri wrote: »
    Strife:
    - SImilar damage and same cost as force pulse.
    - Provides a weak HOT in PVP. - the HoT is far from weak.
    - (Passive) Gives 8% max magicka to have at least one ability slotted from this tree line. (so not necessarily strife) - not insignificant. Depending on how you set up your bars, this can be very important.
    - (Passive) Gives 3% healing done on bar slotted.
    - (Passive) Generates 2 ultimate every 4 second for activating an ability from this tree. (so not necessarily strife) - what other siphon skill are you gonna be using as often as strife?

    Force Pulse:
    - Similar damage and same cost as strife. - lower damage/burst/pressure/whatever potential, at least in pvp, due to being split into three different damage components. Three different things you need to crit.
    - Has a chance to proc all three status effects (fire, ice, shock). - fair
    - (Passive) Gives 8% single target damage while having at least one ability slotted from tree line. (so not necessarily force pulse, also assuming person is using inferno staff) - Strife can also benefit from the dmg increase if the NB is using a destro staff. This isn't something /only/ Pulse can benefit from
    - (Passive) Has 10% spell penetration. - fair
    - (Passive) Gives 3600 magicka if a desto ability kills target. - negligible. You won't be killing anyone with any destro staff ability unless for whatever reason you've chosen to forgo an execute.
    - UNREFLECTABLE

    Magicka nightblades definitely need some help in regards to being near totally shut down against reflects, but I don't think strife is the way to do it. One could almost say they need some mechanical changes similar to the way shields needed to be changed - not nerfed or buffed, but changed.

    I'm not sure what you would classify the hot if not weak, it's not irrelevant, but you can never count on it as a reasonable heal like you could on say vigor, mutagen or troll king (even tho that's health recovery). It's on par with momentum ticks at best, which I would also consider a weak hot. In PVE, i'd agree the strife hot is quite strong, but reflects are a pvp discussion.

    The point is even if you are spamming strife, you would never get significant ulti from that passive if you are doing a standard pvp rotation. At best you will get 4 ultimate over 8 seconds if you time everthing perfectly. If you are constantly spamming strife for 8 seconds straight without using other useful siphoning abilities, you're doing something wrong.

    Fair point about the burst potential, but I'd say in general strife is not a very bursty so I'd say the difference is meh, especially considering you have a higher chance on getting some crits on force pulse. I've used both abilities, they feel more or less the same damage wise.

    Strife can benefit from destro staff skill line, but so can force pulse benefit from having a siphoning ability present. I liked how you commented differently for the two pros when exactly same points were made for both.

    I'm not sure why we are nit-picking minute details about either ability which don't make a huge difference overall. They have their small trade-offs and that is good. In short, strife gives slightly more ulti regen, and a weak hot, whereas force pulse gives slightly more damage, and small chance to apply status effects from ice, fire and shock. They both have a similar passive that buffs you when you have one ability from the tree line which you can bypass by adjusting your bars. They both have the same cost. So for what reason should strife not be unreflectable but force pulse should?

    Tbh I think you're vastly underestimating how useful the HoT is, especially since it's basically easy 100% uptime and attached to your main sustained damage ability. It's like a slower Vigor.

    Troll King, Vigor, etc all the other stuff - you had to actually slot those. Troll King has an opportunity cost of other monster sets. Vigor is an entire skill on its own. Sure, Swallow Soul isn't as strong as Vigor, but it'd be ridiculously overpowered if it was. Just because it's weaker than Vigor/TK/whatever doesn't mean it isn't pretty darn good.
    Edited by Tonturri on October 1, 2018 1:36AM
  • likecats
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    Tonturri wrote: »
    Tbh I think you're vastly underestimating how useful the HoT is, especially since it's basically easy 100% uptime and attached to your main sustained damage ability. It's like a slower Vigor.

    Troll King, Vigor, etc all the other stuff - you had to actually slot those. Troll King has an opportunity cost of other monster sets. Vigor is an entire skill on its own. Sure, Swallow Soul isn't as strong as Vigor, but it's be ridiculously overpowered if it was. Just because it's weaker than Vigor/TK/whatever doesn't mean it isn't pretty darn good.

    I'm not disputing the usefulness of the HOT, it is primarily what differentiates it from force pulse. But strictly in terms of classifcation, it's still a weak HOT none the less.

    All that being said, I honestly thought I'd get more agreements than disagreements in this thread considering the fact that Magblades are nowhere near top tier in PVP (outside of dueling). I don't think this small buff to Strife would have made Magblade OP anyhow, especially since this is more of a QoL buff rather than an absolute buff (since FP exists).

    Never the less, I respect your views that strife should not be made unreflectable, you made much better points than some of the other commentators who got a knee-jerk reaction to the word "nightblade".
    Edited by likecats on October 1, 2018 1:44AM
  • Koolio
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    I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form

    Melee MNB aren’t really in a great spot.
  • Tonturri
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    likecats wrote: »
    Tonturri wrote: »
    Tbh I think you're vastly underestimating how useful the HoT is, especially since it's basically easy 100% uptime and attached to your main sustained damage ability. It's like a slower Vigor.

    Troll King, Vigor, etc all the other stuff - you had to actually slot those. Troll King has an opportunity cost of other monster sets. Vigor is an entire skill on its own. Sure, Swallow Soul isn't as strong as Vigor, but it's be ridiculously overpowered if it was. Just because it's weaker than Vigor/TK/whatever doesn't mean it isn't pretty darn good.

    I'm not disputing the usefulness of the HOT, it is primarily what differentiates it from force pulse. But strictly in terms of classifcation, it's still a weak HOT none the less.

    All that being said, I honestly thought I'd get more agreements than disagreements in this thread considering the fact that Magblades are nowhere near top tier in PVP (outside of dueling). I don't think this small buff to Strife would have made Magblade OP anyhow, especially since this is more of a QoL buff rather than an absolute buff (since FP exists).

    Never the less, I respect your views that strife should not be made unreflectable, you made much better points than some of the other commentators who got a knee-jerk reaction to the word "nightblade".

    That's fair. To better explain - the HoT on its own is weak as heck, yes. Compared in a vacuum, it might be slightly inferior to FP, but in this case I assume that you're running a 'full' mnb build and thus some of the points have crossover
    (such as the 8% single target dmg from a destro skill - FP does indeed give that, but you can also get it from Clench, which is something I'd expect to see when fighting a mnb. It's relatively easy to get Swallow Soul to benefit form the 8% dmg, whereas it's a bit more difficult to get FP to benefit from the 8% max magicka - you could get it from several other siphoning skills, but there is no chance of you slotting Swallow Soul and FP on the same bar. Furthermore, 8% ST damage far outweighs 8% magicka, especially considering most of MNB's kit is single target - so there aren't very many (if any) things that the 8% ST dmg won't benefit but the 8% mag will.
    . But it's extremely easy availability in addition to how well it interacts with the tree's passives (everybody else WISHES they had a spammable skill that activated that many actually decent passives) and how it's attached to mnb's main sustained damage ranged skill.

    And don't get me wrong, I definitely think mNB needs some help against being near totally shut down against ranged reflects/absorbs, but changing mNB without changing how the reflects function at the same time is...not a really good path go down. Wings in particular are already on the weak side (especially when compared to, say, warden's version).

    Furthermore, NBs have the - imo quite viable option - of running Veiled Strike, which while it has its own downsides, isn't reflectable and has a nice additional bonus with cloak, providing the NB a way to both CC and deal damage to the DK without any of it being reflected (compared to Clench being reflectable).

    Lastly...look at Wings' cost compared to strife. It's the most expensive, doesn't really contribute passive wise, and so forth. Imo, Shield needs a nerf and mechanical change (tad more useful against stuff it was weak against, tad less useful against things it's OP against - like mNBs). mNBs interaction with wings and shield could also use some help, though I'm not entirely sure how one might go about that. I already disagree with making Swallow the one to 'deal' with it...Making Bow go through would be absolutely ridiculous because you can combo it with Soul Harvest -> Bow, and that's just agonizing.

    However, I'd like to make a suggestion. Ignore if you've already asked for matchup help elsewhere. I did actually do some duels against DKs some time ago because I had issues with this exact thing.
    Wings is far too expensive to keep up regularily, especially for a heavy armor DK. I'm not entirely sure how light armor DKs fare, but...I'm sure they have other weaknesses, and due to the relatively high base cost I'm reasonably certain they'll be hesitant about aiming for 100% wings uptime against a mNB, and the good ones will try to optimize usage. Have you tried playing mind games with the DK, and waiting until they drop wings to nail them with a Crippling Grasp? I'm pretty sure your Shade plink attacks also go through the wings, though I only ever used it for kiting. It's really quite an interesting match up that made me think. You can force the DK to either waste magicka keeping wings up (and your sustain is generally better than theirs), or drop it to conserve magicka, which then lets you get some attacks in.

    Alternatively, harness and then LA + Swallow. It'll take two rounds of that and their wings are down. It probably won't break your shield and you'll get magicka back. This'll force them to either recast wings every 4 seconds instead of every 6, or there'll be a gap in their defense.

    I went from losing the duel rather quickly to winning by kiting with shade and Crippling Grasp when their shield went down (and resto heavies xD).

    I defienitely think this is a rock-paper-scissors issue though that should've been avoided, and here's to hoping ZOS takes a look at both skills.
    Just a random thought. Wings could easily last MUCH longer, but reflect less. That way, there's some real protection against getting burst down by (for example) NB's bow, sorc's frag, meteor, and other hard hitting projectiles, but it doesn't shut down the smaller ones as easily. They could also really punish people for hitting a DK who has wings up with a hard hitting skill - double or even triple the morph that reflects a skill and adds additional damage, so you can Swallow the DK (Heh) but you'd HAVE to be careful about fragging randomly, or bow-ing/etcetc.

    Currently, using the skill is more concerned with 'uptime' as opposed to using it when you need it, sort of like how dodge roll was - people might never have seen your attacks coming, but by god they'll dodge anyway just in case.

    And then throw on some additional stuff that DK needs - idk, snare cleanse, some extra armor, who knows. I'm not particularly up to date on DK these days.
  • Waffennacht
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    likecats wrote: »
    likecats wrote: »
    I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form

    Magblade is nowhere near top tier in any PVP mode aside from dueling. It's easier to 1vX on literally any stam class than a magblade currently. I rarely see any magblades in BG's or open world in general, stam has been meta in PVP for a long while now.

    That aside, can you elaborate why you think strife should not be unreflectable while force pulse is? Making strife unreflectable is not so much a buff (since FP exists), rather it's more about adding flavor to class ability.

    Not looking at mag NB alone, but the class:

    Because NB has the most access to anything than any other class. It really doesn't deserve another ability that is just plain better than the weapon line version

    No class has a ranged unreflectable spammable (not pigeons any more) why should NB?

    It already has access to major evasion outside of a weapon tree (does any other class)

    Access Hots outside of weapon lines, passive resistance, uncomparable mitigation via cloak

    Access to major fracture outside of a weapon line.

    NB has a weakness to reflect, why give NB class access to a complete uncounterable armada?

    All classes have weak points, NB just has the least

    I am not sure what any of that to do with the specific arguments are I provided.
    It's pointless to look at a class a whole, when ZOS has designed the magicka and stamina variant of each class to function very differently in every gamemode.
    For instance, it's perfectly possible for stamwardens to be OP while magwardens to be underpowered, and it is that way in PVP rn.

    Magicka nightblade likewise, plays out very differently in PVE and PVP. And it plays out very differently to stamblade in PVP.
    Making generalized statements of very specific instances where nightblade plays well is ridiculous. Magwardens also have access to very strong buffs if you look at them individually in very specific instances, but as a whole the class is underwhelming. This is a discussion focusing on Magblades in PVP, so you have to make just those points.

    Unless you think magblades are OP in pvp, I'll reask the question you quoted in your reply. You haven't addressed any of my arguments so far, but have randomly ranted on about nightblades in general.

    I do think mNB is above all but 3 builds - Stam NB, Stamden, and Stam sorc - and the sorc depends on up coming changes.

    As for mag builds, yeah NB is top, though has a very high skill ceiling.

    No, NBs of any variety do not need a buff.

    Your argument specifically? I dunno just got off of work and don't really recall what reasons you gave for buffs, I just know every mag class deserves buffs before NBs
    Edited by Waffennacht on October 1, 2018 3:09AM
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
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  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    Strife is more than fine still. I don't know how many times I killed gankblades yesterday with Strife healing me constantly to the point that I could just go on on a braindead assault on gankblades. I cannot afford to do that on any other magicka classes I play. I have to put shield up if I have any first and then try to kill gankers if they haven't Cloak'd already. With mNB, I constantly get healed with Strife and apply pressure at the same time. Strife may not be Vigor, but it is still strong enough to support you defensively while doing the offense. Yes, Strife heal after Mirkmire will be less potent due to the loss of Minor Vitality but I am still going to use it. Still will be decent support for myself while doing the damage. Literally kept me alive while the ganker got so thirsty on my low HP that they don't even realize I am killing them. Fun skill.

    Also, this skill can still be spammed as I said. mDKs reflecting it cannot sustain against my spam though. Even though I also do time my kill combo properly so that wings aren't going to give me any issues at all. Probably mNB is the only magicka class that can basically 2 shot anyone nowadays.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • NBrookus
    NBrookus
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    A nightblade can choose to disengage from a DK at will with very little the DK can do to catch your shade/cloak/concealed + major expedition in stealth. A NB doesn't have to fight the DK... the DK has to fight the NB if the NB chooses.

    Wings is the ONE proactive defense mechanism mDKs have. StamDKs get to dodge more, cast a few wings... that's it. Wings has been nibbled to death by exceptions. It's expensive and does very little. It doesn't need to be nerfed any more.
    PC NA
    Breton Magicka Sorcerer, Breton Magicka Templar, Dunmer Magicka DK, Bosmer Stamina NB, Nord Stamina Warden, Redguard Stamina Necro
    Dunmer Magicka DK, Argonian Magicka Templar, Altmer Magicka NB, Breton Magicka Sorcerer, Orc Stamina Warden
    Dunmer Magicka DK, Argonian Magicka Templar, Altmer Magicka Sorcerer
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    NBrookus wrote: »
    A nightblade can choose to disengage from a DK at will with very little the DK can do to catch your shade/cloak/concealed + major expedition in stealth. A NB doesn't have to fight the DK... the DK has to fight the NB if the NB chooses.

    Wings is the ONE proactive defense mechanism mDKs have. StamDKs get to dodge more, cast a few wings... that's it. Wings has been nibbled to death by exceptions. It's expensive and does very little. It doesn't need to be nerfed any more.

    Exactly. Another tactic is to Cloak away from DKs and attack again when wing is about to drop within a second. Works well.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • Tonturri
    Tonturri
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    Strife is more than fine still. I don't know how many times I killed gankblades yesterday with Strife healing me constantly to the point that I could just go on on a braindead assault on gankblades. I cannot afford to do that on any other magicka classes I play. I have to put shield up if I have any first and then try to kill gankers if they haven't Cloak'd already. With mNB, I constantly get healed with Strife and apply pressure at the same time. Strife may not be Vigor, but it is still strong enough to support you defensively while doing the offense. Yes, Strife heal after Mirkmire will be less potent due to the loss of Minor Vitality but I am still going to use it. Still will be decent support for myself while doing the damage. Literally kept me alive while the ganker got so thirsty on my low HP that they don't even realize I am killing them. Fun skill.

    Also, this skill can still be spammed as I said. mDKs reflecting it cannot sustain against my spam though. Even though I also do time my kill combo properly so that wings aren't going to give me any issues at all. Probably mNB is the only magicka class that can basically 2 shot anyone nowadays.

    IIRC the Minor Vitality was baked into the %heal-on-dmg of the skill. The skill itself heals for about(?) the same amount, you just don't get the benefit from any other incoming heals. A dumb change tbh as it mostly harms NB tanks, but even so.
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
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    Tonturri wrote: »
    Strife is more than fine still. I don't know how many times I killed gankblades yesterday with Strife healing me constantly to the point that I could just go on on a braindead assault on gankblades. I cannot afford to do that on any other magicka classes I play. I have to put shield up if I have any first and then try to kill gankers if they haven't Cloak'd already. With mNB, I constantly get healed with Strife and apply pressure at the same time. Strife may not be Vigor, but it is still strong enough to support you defensively while doing the offense. Yes, Strife heal after Mirkmire will be less potent due to the loss of Minor Vitality but I am still going to use it. Still will be decent support for myself while doing the damage. Literally kept me alive while the ganker got so thirsty on my low HP that they don't even realize I am killing them. Fun skill.

    Also, this skill can still be spammed as I said. mDKs reflecting it cannot sustain against my spam though. Even though I also do time my kill combo properly so that wings aren't going to give me any issues at all. Probably mNB is the only magicka class that can basically 2 shot anyone nowadays.

    IIRC the Minor Vitality was baked into the %heal-on-dmg of the skill. The skill itself heals for about(?) the same amount, you just don't get the benefit from any other incoming heals. A dumb change tbh as it mostly harms NB tanks, but even so.

    Yeah, I am not sure why they thought it was a brilliant idea when they could've very well change the mechanics to require healers instead of this band aid fix.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • ezio45
    ezio45
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    hey nb,

    force pulse is reflectable when you use a fire staff, like ya know the one that buffs single target dmg that you would use with say force pulse? also even it its a weak HOT its still a HOT.... be happy you have a heal in pvp. It also is a spammable that gens ulti again be happy you have that.

    Love, sorcs


  • Rikumaru
    Rikumaru
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    There shouldn't be exceptions to reflect otherwise it turns wings into a useless ability. If wings are so much of a problem for you just slot force pulse or concealed weapon as well as strife.
    Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.
  • likecats
    likecats
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    likecats wrote: »
    likecats wrote: »
    I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form

    Magblade is nowhere near top tier in any PVP mode aside from dueling. It's easier to 1vX on literally any stam class than a magblade currently. I rarely see any magblades in BG's or open world in general, stam has been meta in PVP for a long while now.

    That aside, can you elaborate why you think strife should not be unreflectable while force pulse is? Making strife unreflectable is not so much a buff (since FP exists), rather it's more about adding flavor to class ability.

    Not looking at mag NB alone, but the class:

    Because NB has the most access to anything than any other class. It really doesn't deserve another ability that is just plain better than the weapon line version

    No class has a ranged unreflectable spammable (not pigeons any more) why should NB?

    It already has access to major evasion outside of a weapon tree (does any other class)

    Access Hots outside of weapon lines, passive resistance, uncomparable mitigation via cloak

    Access to major fracture outside of a weapon line.

    NB has a weakness to reflect, why give NB class access to a complete uncounterable armada?

    All classes have weak points, NB just has the least

    I am not sure what any of that to do with the specific arguments are I provided.
    It's pointless to look at a class a whole, when ZOS has designed the magicka and stamina variant of each class to function very differently in every gamemode.
    For instance, it's perfectly possible for stamwardens to be OP while magwardens to be underpowered, and it is that way in PVP rn.

    Magicka nightblade likewise, plays out very differently in PVE and PVP. And it plays out very differently to stamblade in PVP.
    Making generalized statements of very specific instances where nightblade plays well is ridiculous. Magwardens also have access to very strong buffs if you look at them individually in very specific instances, but as a whole the class is underwhelming. This is a discussion focusing on Magblades in PVP, so you have to make just those points.

    Unless you think magblades are OP in pvp, I'll reask the question you quoted in your reply. You haven't addressed any of my arguments so far, but have randomly ranted on about nightblades in general.

    I do think mNB is above all but 3 builds - Stam NB, Stamden, and Stam sorc - and the sorc depends on up coming changes.

    As for mag builds, yeah NB is top, though has a very high skill ceiling.

    No, NBs of any variety do not need a buff.

    Your argument specifically? I dunno just got off of work and don't really recall what reasons you gave for buffs, I just know every mag class deserves buffs before NBs

    Find it wholistically laughable if you think Nightblade is in top 5 for PVP rn. (excluding dueling ofcourse).
    Show me any magNightblade 1vX vdeo, and I'll show you a better StamPlar and StamDK 1vX video. I've seen the best nightblades I know play, like Kena, Zendran, Vita Belial, and non of them ever came anywhere close to the effectiveness of any Stam-class in openworld PVP or Battlegrounds. These guys literally know magblade inside out, if they can't make it work as well as stam-classes for 1vXing, then it's not because they are bad, it's because magblade is bad in 1vXing.

    Compared to Magplars, Magblades come no where near the group utility magplars provide to a pvp group, much more useful to have a magplar than magblade in a small group or anygroup.

    The only classes I'd agree that magblade is kind of equivalently useless to in group PVP is magDK, they both perform well if they get paired against specific opponents. MagDK's get rekt if the enemy team has too many bleeds, magblades get rekt if the enemy team has too many DK's and Warden's.

    Magwarden trails a bit behind as usual.

    But yeah, laughable if you think magblade is anywhere in top 5 for PVP content right now.
  • mojomood
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    I agree that magblades should have something in their kit to counter wings but they also have more access to stealth than anyone in the game. I think the spammable being unreflectable may make it very hard for a magDK to combat a magblade considering magDKs don't have great mobility and magBlades do. I would rather see cripple not be a projectile, have travel time or be reflectable. Considering the recent nerf to cripples snare and major expedition, it seems fitting it should not have a travel time, be dodgeable, or reflectable. It's not a spammable, it's a short, soft cc with a DOT.

    There are a lot of things magblades need for open world. Primarily a snare immunity that doesn't involve vampirism, but so does every magicka class right now.
  • technohic
    technohic
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    I'd rather they look at concealed weapon as the spammable. That's your counter. I dont see any reason to make magblade capable of going completely ranged as well as sorc AND still be able to cloak away, well out of detect pot range
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