Waffennacht wrote: »I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form
Strife:
- SImilar damage and same cost as force pulse.
- Provides a weak HOT in PVP. - the HoT is far from weak.
- (Passive) Gives 8% max magicka to have at least one ability slotted from this tree line. (so not necessarily strife) - not insignificant. Depending on how you set up your bars, this can be very important.
- (Passive) Gives 3% healing done on bar slotted.
- (Passive) Generates 2 ultimate every 4 second for activating an ability from this tree. (so not necessarily strife) - what other siphon skill are you gonna be using as often as strife?
Force Pulse:
- Similar damage and same cost as strife. - lower damage/burst/pressure/whatever potential, at least in pvp, due to being split into three different damage components. Three different things you need to crit.
- Has a chance to proc all three status effects (fire, ice, shock). - fair
- (Passive) Gives 8% single target damage while having at least one ability slotted from tree line. (so not necessarily force pulse, also assuming person is using inferno staff) - Strife can also benefit from the dmg increase if the NB is using a destro staff. This isn't something /only/ Pulse can benefit from
- (Passive) Has 10% spell penetration. - fair
- (Passive) Gives 3600 magicka if a desto ability kills target. - negligible. You won't be killing anyone with any destro staff ability unless for whatever reason you've chosen to forgo an execute.
- UNREFLECTABLE
Waffennacht wrote: »I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form
Strife:
- SImilar damage and same cost as force pulse.
- Provides a weak HOT in PVP. - the HoT is far from weak.
- (Passive) Gives 8% max magicka to have at least one ability slotted from this tree line. (so not necessarily strife) - not insignificant. Depending on how you set up your bars, this can be very important.
- (Passive) Gives 3% healing done on bar slotted.
- (Passive) Generates 2 ultimate every 4 second for activating an ability from this tree. (so not necessarily strife) - what other siphon skill are you gonna be using as often as strife?
Force Pulse:
- Similar damage and same cost as strife. - lower damage/burst/pressure/whatever potential, at least in pvp, due to being split into three different damage components. Three different things you need to crit.
- Has a chance to proc all three status effects (fire, ice, shock). - fair
- (Passive) Gives 8% single target damage while having at least one ability slotted from tree line. (so not necessarily force pulse, also assuming person is using inferno staff) - Strife can also benefit from the dmg increase if the NB is using a destro staff. This isn't something /only/ Pulse can benefit from
- (Passive) Has 10% spell penetration. - fair
- (Passive) Gives 3600 magicka if a desto ability kills target. - negligible. You won't be killing anyone with any destro staff ability unless for whatever reason you've chosen to forgo an execute.
- UNREFLECTABLE
Magicka nightblades definitely need some help in regards to being near totally shut down against reflects, but I don't think strife is the way to do it. One could almost say they need some mechanical changes similar to the way shields needed to be changed - not nerfed or buffed, but changed.
Waffennacht wrote: »I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form
Waffennacht wrote: »I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form
Magblade is nowhere near top tier in any PVP mode aside from dueling. It's easier to 1vX on literally any stam class than a magblade currently. I rarely see any magblades in BG's or open world in general, stam has been meta in PVP for a long while now.
That aside, can you elaborate why you think strife should not be unreflectable while force pulse is? Making strife unreflectable is not so much a buff (since FP exists), rather it's more about adding flavor to class ability.
Waffennacht wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form
Magblade is nowhere near top tier in any PVP mode aside from dueling. It's easier to 1vX on literally any stam class than a magblade currently. I rarely see any magblades in BG's or open world in general, stam has been meta in PVP for a long while now.
That aside, can you elaborate why you think strife should not be unreflectable while force pulse is? Making strife unreflectable is not so much a buff (since FP exists), rather it's more about adding flavor to class ability.
Not looking at mag NB alone, but the class:
Because NB has the most access to anything than any other class. It really doesn't deserve another ability that is just plain better than the weapon line version
No class has a ranged unreflectable spammable (not pigeons any more) why should NB?
It already has access to major evasion outside of a weapon tree (does any other class)
Access Hots outside of weapon lines, passive resistance, uncomparable mitigation via cloak
Access to major fracture outside of a weapon line.
NB has a weakness to reflect, why give NB class access to a complete uncounterable armada?
All classes have weak points, NB just has the least
Cause its a projectile. Do us a favor and play DK to see how far wings really gets you. Tiny cap, large cost and so so many unreflectables. Adding another exception is stupid. I do see how it is OP in certain situations being one of those limited hard counter abilities, but until they revamp it completely, its a no.
You can have unreflectable strife the second all our dots go through your overpowered cloak which makes you invisible, untargetable by any ST whilst in it, forcemisses/stops any en route and suppresses all dots.
Cause its a projectile. Do us a favor and play DK to see how far wings really gets you. Tiny cap, large cost and so so many unreflectables. Adding another exception is stupid. I do see how it is OP in certain situations being one of those limited hard counter abilities, but until they revamp it completely, its a no.
You can have unreflectable strife the second all our dots go through your overpowered cloak which makes you invisible, untargetable by any ST whilst in it, forcemisses/stops any en route and suppresses all dots.
I already rode that train of playing PVP with DK wings. I played stamDK last year from Feb-Aug, and I could easily neutralize if not defeat the best magblades I know. Wings have received multiple buffs since then, and virtually every DK runs wings in BG's, so don't try to imply that they are weak, because they are not.
That aside, I don't think you addressed any of my points, precisely, why do you think strife should be unreflectable when force pulse is not?
Cause its a projectile. Do us a favor and play DK to see how far wings really gets you. Tiny cap, large cost and so so many unreflectables. Adding another exception is stupid. I do see how it is OP in certain situations being one of those limited hard counter abilities, but until they revamp it completely, its a no.
You can have unreflectable strife the second all our dots go through your overpowered cloak which makes you invisible, untargetable by any ST whilst in it, forcemisses/stops any en route and suppresses all dots.
Cause its a projectile. Do us a favor and play DK to see how far wings really gets you. Tiny cap, large cost and so so many unreflectables. Adding another exception is stupid. I do see how it is OP in certain situations being one of those limited hard counter abilities, but until they revamp it completely, its a no.
You can have unreflectable strife the second all our dots go through your overpowered cloak which makes you invisible, untargetable by any ST whilst in it, forcemisses/stops any en route and suppresses all dots.
I already rode that train of playing PVP with DK wings. I played stamDK last year from Feb-Aug, and I could easily neutralize if not defeat the best magblades I know. Wings have received multiple buffs since then, and virtually every DK runs wings in BG's, so don't try to imply that they are weak, because they are not.
That aside, I don't think you addressed any of my points, precisely, why do you think strife should be unreflectable when force pulse is not?
Yeah, in a 1v1. On any NB 1v1 I could easily cloak away too. Or, god forbid, shade+cloak. Bam, neutralized. And you can do that to very nearly every class. Next patch, even other NBs. Shade out of range and disappear. Try using wings to good effect vs the meta magplar, magden, magDK, stamDK, Stamsorc, stamblade, stamden, stamplar. Have fun dropping 4k to reflect a light attack, maybe one dot if you time it well.
Bonus round: Any non projectile, and even many actual projectiles. Sload, valkyn (cloakable ironically) pulse, ("beam") birb, pet abilities, ballista, meteor.
Also god forbid you go against multiple players with reflectable abilities, because wings will go down near instantly protecting you from very little.
As for force pulse. It shouldn't be reflectable either. Its a band aid fix justified by calling it a beam. Strife actually has a little ball that is sent before, though its harder to see after the weave buff, so not a beam or a pull, but a full projectile. Can't make that excuse for it.
Anyhow, If pulse is better, use it. But for the most part, NBs don't, so there must be some reason to use it. I can't say I like the changes they have done to strife either. Changing the cost was stupid, and now you don't get vitality from the damage morph, which sucks. But this isn't trickle down nerfonomics.
As I said, I don't like wings. Its a feast or famine terribly balanced skill, but instead of band aiding it. I'd rather a complete revamp. Until then, no more exceptions. Now answer my questions. How would you like it if whip ignored cloak?
Strife:
- SImilar damage and same cost as force pulse.
- Provides a weak HOT in PVP. - the HoT is far from weak.
- (Passive) Gives 8% max magicka to have at least one ability slotted from this tree line. (so not necessarily strife) - not insignificant. Depending on how you set up your bars, this can be very important.
- (Passive) Gives 3% healing done on bar slotted.
- (Passive) Generates 2 ultimate every 4 second for activating an ability from this tree. (so not necessarily strife) - what other siphon skill are you gonna be using as often as strife?
Force Pulse:
- Similar damage and same cost as strife. - lower damage/burst/pressure/whatever potential, at least in pvp, due to being split into three different damage components. Three different things you need to crit.
- Has a chance to proc all three status effects (fire, ice, shock). - fair
- (Passive) Gives 8% single target damage while having at least one ability slotted from tree line. (so not necessarily force pulse, also assuming person is using inferno staff) - Strife can also benefit from the dmg increase if the NB is using a destro staff. This isn't something /only/ Pulse can benefit from
- (Passive) Has 10% spell penetration. - fair
- (Passive) Gives 3600 magicka if a desto ability kills target. - negligible. You won't be killing anyone with any destro staff ability unless for whatever reason you've chosen to forgo an execute.
- UNREFLECTABLE
Magicka nightblades definitely need some help in regards to being near totally shut down against reflects, but I don't think strife is the way to do it. One could almost say they need some mechanical changes similar to the way shields needed to be changed - not nerfed or buffed, but changed.
I'm not sure what you would classify the hot if not weak, it's not irrelevant, but you can never count on it as a reasonable heal like you could on say vigor, mutagen or troll king (even tho that's health recovery). It's on par with momentum ticks at best, which I would also consider a weak hot. In PVE, i'd agree the strife hot is quite strong, but reflects are a pvp discussion.
The point is even if you are spamming strife, you would never get significant ulti from that passive if you are doing a standard pvp rotation. At best you will get 4 ultimate over 8 seconds if you time everthing perfectly. If you are constantly spamming strife for 8 seconds straight without using other useful siphoning abilities, you're doing something wrong.
Fair point about the burst potential, but I'd say in general strife is not a very bursty so I'd say the difference is meh, especially considering you have a higher chance on getting some crits on force pulse. I've used both abilities, they feel more or less the same damage wise.
Strife can benefit from destro staff skill line, but so can force pulse benefit from having a siphoning ability present. I liked how you commented differently for the two pros when exactly same points were made for both.
I'm not sure why we are nit-picking minute details about either ability which don't make a huge difference overall. They have their small trade-offs and that is good. In short, strife gives slightly more ulti regen, and a weak hot, whereas force pulse gives slightly more damage, and small chance to apply status effects from ice, fire and shock. They both have a similar passive that buffs you when you have one ability from the tree line which you can bypass by adjusting your bars. They both have the same cost. So for what reason should strife not be unreflectable but force pulse should?
Tbh I think you're vastly underestimating how useful the HoT is, especially since it's basically easy 100% uptime and attached to your main sustained damage ability. It's like a slower Vigor.
Troll King, Vigor, etc all the other stuff - you had to actually slot those. Troll King has an opportunity cost of other monster sets. Vigor is an entire skill on its own. Sure, Swallow Soul isn't as strong as Vigor, but it's be ridiculously overpowered if it was. Just because it's weaker than Vigor/TK/whatever doesn't mean it isn't pretty darn good.
Waffennacht wrote: »I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form
Tbh I think you're vastly underestimating how useful the HoT is, especially since it's basically easy 100% uptime and attached to your main sustained damage ability. It's like a slower Vigor.
Troll King, Vigor, etc all the other stuff - you had to actually slot those. Troll King has an opportunity cost of other monster sets. Vigor is an entire skill on its own. Sure, Swallow Soul isn't as strong as Vigor, but it's be ridiculously overpowered if it was. Just because it's weaker than Vigor/TK/whatever doesn't mean it isn't pretty darn good.
I'm not disputing the usefulness of the HOT, it is primarily what differentiates it from force pulse. But strictly in terms of classifcation, it's still a weak HOT none the less.
All that being said, I honestly thought I'd get more agreements than disagreements in this thread considering the fact that Magblades are nowhere near top tier in PVP (outside of dueling). I don't think this small buff to Strife would have made Magblade OP anyhow, especially since this is more of a QoL buff rather than an absolute buff (since FP exists).
Never the less, I respect your views that strife should not be made unreflectable, you made much better points than some of the other commentators who got a knee-jerk reaction to the word "nightblade".
Waffennacht wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form
Magblade is nowhere near top tier in any PVP mode aside from dueling. It's easier to 1vX on literally any stam class than a magblade currently. I rarely see any magblades in BG's or open world in general, stam has been meta in PVP for a long while now.
That aside, can you elaborate why you think strife should not be unreflectable while force pulse is? Making strife unreflectable is not so much a buff (since FP exists), rather it's more about adding flavor to class ability.
Not looking at mag NB alone, but the class:
Because NB has the most access to anything than any other class. It really doesn't deserve another ability that is just plain better than the weapon line version
No class has a ranged unreflectable spammable (not pigeons any more) why should NB?
It already has access to major evasion outside of a weapon tree (does any other class)
Access Hots outside of weapon lines, passive resistance, uncomparable mitigation via cloak
Access to major fracture outside of a weapon line.
NB has a weakness to reflect, why give NB class access to a complete uncounterable armada?
All classes have weak points, NB just has the least
I am not sure what any of that to do with the specific arguments are I provided.
It's pointless to look at a class a whole, when ZOS has designed the magicka and stamina variant of each class to function very differently in every gamemode.
For instance, it's perfectly possible for stamwardens to be OP while magwardens to be underpowered, and it is that way in PVP rn.
Magicka nightblade likewise, plays out very differently in PVE and PVP. And it plays out very differently to stamblade in PVP.
Making generalized statements of very specific instances where nightblade plays well is ridiculous. Magwardens also have access to very strong buffs if you look at them individually in very specific instances, but as a whole the class is underwhelming. This is a discussion focusing on Magblades in PVP, so you have to make just those points.
Unless you think magblades are OP in pvp, I'll reask the question you quoted in your reply. You haven't addressed any of my arguments so far, but have randomly ranted on about nightblades in general.
A nightblade can choose to disengage from a DK at will with very little the DK can do to catch your shade/cloak/concealed + major expedition in stealth. A NB doesn't have to fight the DK... the DK has to fight the NB if the NB chooses.
Wings is the ONE proactive defense mechanism mDKs have. StamDKs get to dodge more, cast a few wings... that's it. Wings has been nibbled to death by exceptions. It's expensive and does very little. It doesn't need to be nerfed any more.
IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Strife is more than fine still. I don't know how many times I killed gankblades yesterday with Strife healing me constantly to the point that I could just go on on a braindead assault on gankblades. I cannot afford to do that on any other magicka classes I play. I have to put shield up if I have any first and then try to kill gankers if they haven't Cloak'd already. With mNB, I constantly get healed with Strife and apply pressure at the same time. Strife may not be Vigor, but it is still strong enough to support you defensively while doing the offense. Yes, Strife heal after Mirkmire will be less potent due to the loss of Minor Vitality but I am still going to use it. Still will be decent support for myself while doing the damage. Literally kept me alive while the ganker got so thirsty on my low HP that they don't even realize I am killing them. Fun skill.
Also, this skill can still be spammed as I said. mDKs reflecting it cannot sustain against my spam though. Even though I also do time my kill combo properly so that wings aren't going to give me any issues at all. Probably mNB is the only magicka class that can basically 2 shot anyone nowadays.
IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Strife is more than fine still. I don't know how many times I killed gankblades yesterday with Strife healing me constantly to the point that I could just go on on a braindead assault on gankblades. I cannot afford to do that on any other magicka classes I play. I have to put shield up if I have any first and then try to kill gankers if they haven't Cloak'd already. With mNB, I constantly get healed with Strife and apply pressure at the same time. Strife may not be Vigor, but it is still strong enough to support you defensively while doing the offense. Yes, Strife heal after Mirkmire will be less potent due to the loss of Minor Vitality but I am still going to use it. Still will be decent support for myself while doing the damage. Literally kept me alive while the ganker got so thirsty on my low HP that they don't even realize I am killing them. Fun skill.
Also, this skill can still be spammed as I said. mDKs reflecting it cannot sustain against my spam though. Even though I also do time my kill combo properly so that wings aren't going to give me any issues at all. Probably mNB is the only magicka class that can basically 2 shot anyone nowadays.
IIRC the Minor Vitality was baked into the %heal-on-dmg of the skill. The skill itself heals for about(?) the same amount, you just don't get the benefit from any other incoming heals. A dumb change tbh as it mostly harms NB tanks, but even so.
Waffennacht wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form
Magblade is nowhere near top tier in any PVP mode aside from dueling. It's easier to 1vX on literally any stam class than a magblade currently. I rarely see any magblades in BG's or open world in general, stam has been meta in PVP for a long while now.
That aside, can you elaborate why you think strife should not be unreflectable while force pulse is? Making strife unreflectable is not so much a buff (since FP exists), rather it's more about adding flavor to class ability.
Not looking at mag NB alone, but the class:
Because NB has the most access to anything than any other class. It really doesn't deserve another ability that is just plain better than the weapon line version
No class has a ranged unreflectable spammable (not pigeons any more) why should NB?
It already has access to major evasion outside of a weapon tree (does any other class)
Access Hots outside of weapon lines, passive resistance, uncomparable mitigation via cloak
Access to major fracture outside of a weapon line.
NB has a weakness to reflect, why give NB class access to a complete uncounterable armada?
All classes have weak points, NB just has the least
I am not sure what any of that to do with the specific arguments are I provided.
It's pointless to look at a class a whole, when ZOS has designed the magicka and stamina variant of each class to function very differently in every gamemode.
For instance, it's perfectly possible for stamwardens to be OP while magwardens to be underpowered, and it is that way in PVP rn.
Magicka nightblade likewise, plays out very differently in PVE and PVP. And it plays out very differently to stamblade in PVP.
Making generalized statements of very specific instances where nightblade plays well is ridiculous. Magwardens also have access to very strong buffs if you look at them individually in very specific instances, but as a whole the class is underwhelming. This is a discussion focusing on Magblades in PVP, so you have to make just those points.
Unless you think magblades are OP in pvp, I'll reask the question you quoted in your reply. You haven't addressed any of my arguments so far, but have randomly ranted on about nightblades in general.
I do think mNB is above all but 3 builds - Stam NB, Stamden, and Stam sorc - and the sorc depends on up coming changes.
As for mag builds, yeah NB is top, though has a very high skill ceiling.
No, NBs of any variety do not need a buff.
Your argument specifically? I dunno just got off of work and don't really recall what reasons you gave for buffs, I just know every mag class deserves buffs before NBs