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After Strife cost increase, there is no reason why it's still reflectable

  • Waffennacht
    Waffennacht
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    likecats wrote: »
    likecats wrote: »
    likecats wrote: »
    I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form

    Magblade is nowhere near top tier in any PVP mode aside from dueling. It's easier to 1vX on literally any stam class than a magblade currently. I rarely see any magblades in BG's or open world in general, stam has been meta in PVP for a long while now.

    That aside, can you elaborate why you think strife should not be unreflectable while force pulse is? Making strife unreflectable is not so much a buff (since FP exists), rather it's more about adding flavor to class ability.

    Not looking at mag NB alone, but the class:

    Because NB has the most access to anything than any other class. It really doesn't deserve another ability that is just plain better than the weapon line version

    No class has a ranged unreflectable spammable (not pigeons any more) why should NB?

    It already has access to major evasion outside of a weapon tree (does any other class)

    Access Hots outside of weapon lines, passive resistance, uncomparable mitigation via cloak

    Access to major fracture outside of a weapon line.

    NB has a weakness to reflect, why give NB class access to a complete uncounterable armada?

    All classes have weak points, NB just has the least

    I am not sure what any of that to do with the specific arguments are I provided.
    It's pointless to look at a class a whole, when ZOS has designed the magicka and stamina variant of each class to function very differently in every gamemode.
    For instance, it's perfectly possible for stamwardens to be OP while magwardens to be underpowered, and it is that way in PVP rn.

    Magicka nightblade likewise, plays out very differently in PVE and PVP. And it plays out very differently to stamblade in PVP.
    Making generalized statements of very specific instances where nightblade plays well is ridiculous. Magwardens also have access to very strong buffs if you look at them individually in very specific instances, but as a whole the class is underwhelming. This is a discussion focusing on Magblades in PVP, so you have to make just those points.

    Unless you think magblades are OP in pvp, I'll reask the question you quoted in your reply. You haven't addressed any of my arguments so far, but have randomly ranted on about nightblades in general.

    I do think mNB is above all but 3 builds - Stam NB, Stamden, and Stam sorc - and the sorc depends on up coming changes.

    As for mag builds, yeah NB is top, though has a very high skill ceiling.

    No, NBs of any variety do not need a buff.

    Your argument specifically? I dunno just got off of work and don't really recall what reasons you gave for buffs, I just know every mag class deserves buffs before NBs

    Find it wholistically laughable if you think Nightblade is in top 5 for PVP rn. (excluding dueling ofcourse).
    Show me any magNightblade 1vX vdeo, and I'll show you a better StamPlar and StamDK 1vX video. I've seen the best nightblades I know play, like Kena, Zendran, Vita Belial, and non of them ever came anywhere close to the effectiveness of any Stam-class in openworld PVP or Battlegrounds. These guys literally know magblade inside out, if they can't make it work as well as stam-classes for 1vXing, then it's not because they are bad, it's because magblade is bad in 1vXing.

    Compared to Magplars, Magblades come no where near the group utility magplars provide to a pvp group, much more useful to have a magplar than magblade in a small group or anygroup.

    The only classes I'd agree that magblade is kind of equivalently useless to in group PVP is magDK, they both perform well if they get paired against specific opponents. MagDK's get rekt if the enemy team has too many bleeds, magblades get rekt if the enemy team has too many DK's and Warden's.

    Magwarden trails a bit behind as usual.

    But yeah, laughable if you think magblade is anywhere in top 5 for PVP content right now.

    I find the idea of Stam DK or Stam Templar in BGs laughable.

    Wut mobility?

    And this of course is only my opinion
    Edited by Waffennacht on October 1, 2018 12:52PM
    Gamer tag: DasPanzerKat NA Xbox One
    1300+ CP
    Battleground PvP'er

    Waffennacht' Builds
  • BigBadVolk
    BigBadVolk
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    likecats wrote: »
    likecats wrote: »
    likecats wrote: »
    I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form

    Magblade is nowhere near top tier in any PVP mode aside from dueling. It's easier to 1vX on literally any stam class than a magblade currently. I rarely see any magblades in BG's or open world in general, stam has been meta in PVP for a long while now.

    That aside, can you elaborate why you think strife should not be unreflectable while force pulse is? Making strife unreflectable is not so much a buff (since FP exists), rather it's more about adding flavor to class ability.

    Not looking at mag NB alone, but the class:

    Because NB has the most access to anything than any other class. It really doesn't deserve another ability that is just plain better than the weapon line version

    No class has a ranged unreflectable spammable (not pigeons any more) why should NB?

    It already has access to major evasion outside of a weapon tree (does any other class)

    Access Hots outside of weapon lines, passive resistance, uncomparable mitigation via cloak

    Access to major fracture outside of a weapon line.

    NB has a weakness to reflect, why give NB class access to a complete uncounterable armada?

    All classes have weak points, NB just has the least

    I am not sure what any of that to do with the specific arguments are I provided.
    It's pointless to look at a class a whole, when ZOS has designed the magicka and stamina variant of each class to function very differently in every gamemode.
    For instance, it's perfectly possible for stamwardens to be OP while magwardens to be underpowered, and it is that way in PVP rn.

    Magicka nightblade likewise, plays out very differently in PVE and PVP. And it plays out very differently to stamblade in PVP.
    Making generalized statements of very specific instances where nightblade plays well is ridiculous. Magwardens also have access to very strong buffs if you look at them individually in very specific instances, but as a whole the class is underwhelming. This is a discussion focusing on Magblades in PVP, so you have to make just those points.

    Unless you think magblades are OP in pvp, I'll reask the question you quoted in your reply. You haven't addressed any of my arguments so far, but have randomly ranted on about nightblades in general.

    I do think mNB is above all but 3 builds - Stam NB, Stamden, and Stam sorc - and the sorc depends on up coming changes.

    As for mag builds, yeah NB is top, though has a very high skill ceiling.

    No, NBs of any variety do not need a buff.

    Your argument specifically? I dunno just got off of work and don't really recall what reasons you gave for buffs, I just know every mag class deserves buffs before NBs

    Find it wholistically laughable if you think Nightblade is in top 5 for PVP rn. (excluding dueling ofcourse).
    Show me any magNightblade 1vX vdeo, and I'll show you a better StamPlar and StamDK 1vX video. I've seen the best nightblades I know play, like Kena, Zendran, Vita Belial, and non of them ever came anywhere close to the effectiveness of any Stam-class in openworld PVP or Battlegrounds. These guys literally know magblade inside out, if they can't make it work as well as stam-classes for 1vXing, then it's not because they are bad, it's because magblade is bad in 1vXing.

    Compared to Magplars, Magblades come no where near the group utility magplars provide to a pvp group, much more useful to have a magplar than magblade in a small group or anygroup.

    The only classes I'd agree that magblade is kind of equivalently useless to in group PVP is magDK, they both perform well if they get paired against specific opponents. MagDK's get rekt if the enemy team has too many bleeds, magblades get rekt if the enemy team has too many DK's and Warden's.

    Magwarden trails a bit behind as usual.

    But yeah, laughable if you think magblade is anywhere in top 5 for PVP content right now.

    I find the idea of Stam DK or Stam Templar in BGs laughable.

    Wut mobility?

    And this of course is only my opinion

    tbh magblades are just as much trash in BGs maybe even more :dizzy:
    but tbh I'd prefer crippling to be unreflectable, you can counter wings pretty much with block casting (at least in heavy in light its prob a death sentence)
    "The ass is similar to the opinion: Everyone has it, but no one cares about the others!"
    I'm 120 years old
  • thankyourat
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    Strife is more than fine still. I don't know how many times I killed gankblades yesterday with Strife healing me constantly to the point that I could just go on on a braindead assault on gankblades. I cannot afford to do that on any other magicka classes I play. I have to put shield up if I have any first and then try to kill gankers if they haven't Cloak'd already. With mNB, I constantly get healed with Strife and apply pressure at the same time. Strife may not be Vigor, but it is still strong enough to support you defensively while doing the offense. Yes, Strife heal after Mirkmire will be less potent due to the loss of Minor Vitality but I am still going to use it. Still will be decent support for myself while doing the damage. Literally kept me alive while the ganker got so thirsty on my low HP that they don't even realize I am killing them. Fun skill.

    Also, this skill can still be spammed as I said. mDKs reflecting it cannot sustain against my spam though. Even though I also do time my kill combo properly so that wings aren't going to give me any issues at all. Probably mNB is the only magicka class that can basically 2 shot anyone nowadays.

    Strife is a great skill but if you were killing gankblades it wasn't because of strife because someone with real damage will still burst you down even when the HoT is ticking because it's a small heal now if you combine it with healing ward and another HoT it starts to become strong but strife alone is not enough to protect your health while you go offensive anymore. As for killing a mag dk it doesn't matter if you perform your combo properly what matters is the dk giving you the opportunity to even get to his health pool.

    those magblade two shots are coming from high damage low recovery builds that only work for duels. In duels most Magicka builds have the damage to two shot people. Curse, frag, meteor or leap, power lash hit just as hard as harvest, bow. Although they aren't up as frequently. My open world build can't build enough damage to 2 shot a good build because I have to build for so much other stuff before I can think about damage to try and cover up all the magblade open world weaknesses. Also on Xbox right now there are about 4 mag dks for every one magblade.
    Edited by thankyourat on October 1, 2018 2:53PM
  • thankyourat
    thankyourat
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    likecats wrote: »
    likecats wrote: »
    likecats wrote: »
    I can't see any reason to buff NB in anyway, shape, or form

    Magblade is nowhere near top tier in any PVP mode aside from dueling. It's easier to 1vX on literally any stam class than a magblade currently. I rarely see any magblades in BG's or open world in general, stam has been meta in PVP for a long while now.

    That aside, can you elaborate why you think strife should not be unreflectable while force pulse is? Making strife unreflectable is not so much a buff (since FP exists), rather it's more about adding flavor to class ability.

    Not looking at mag NB alone, but the class:

    Because NB has the most access to anything than any other class. It really doesn't deserve another ability that is just plain better than the weapon line version

    No class has a ranged unreflectable spammable (not pigeons any more) why should NB?

    It already has access to major evasion outside of a weapon tree (does any other class)

    Access Hots outside of weapon lines, passive resistance, uncomparable mitigation via cloak

    Access to major fracture outside of a weapon line.

    NB has a weakness to reflect, why give NB class access to a complete uncounterable armada?

    All classes have weak points, NB just has the least

    I am not sure what any of that to do with the specific arguments are I provided.
    It's pointless to look at a class a whole, when ZOS has designed the magicka and stamina variant of each class to function very differently in every gamemode.
    For instance, it's perfectly possible for stamwardens to be OP while magwardens to be underpowered, and it is that way in PVP rn.

    Magicka nightblade likewise, plays out very differently in PVE and PVP. And it plays out very differently to stamblade in PVP.
    Making generalized statements of very specific instances where nightblade plays well is ridiculous. Magwardens also have access to very strong buffs if you look at them individually in very specific instances, but as a whole the class is underwhelming. This is a discussion focusing on Magblades in PVP, so you have to make just those points.

    Unless you think magblades are OP in pvp, I'll reask the question you quoted in your reply. You haven't addressed any of my arguments so far, but have randomly ranted on about nightblades in general.

    I do think mNB is above all but 3 builds - Stam NB, Stamden, and Stam sorc - and the sorc depends on up coming changes.

    As for mag builds, yeah NB is top, though has a very high skill ceiling.

    No, NBs of any variety do not need a buff.

    Your argument specifically? I dunno just got off of work and don't really recall what reasons you gave for buffs, I just know every mag class deserves buffs before NBs

    Find it wholistically laughable if you think Nightblade is in top 5 for PVP rn. (excluding dueling ofcourse).
    Show me any magNightblade 1vX vdeo, and I'll show you a better StamPlar and StamDK 1vX video. I've seen the best nightblades I know play, like Kena, Zendran, Vita Belial, and non of them ever came anywhere close to the effectiveness of any Stam-class in openworld PVP or Battlegrounds. These guys literally know magblade inside out, if they can't make it work as well as stam-classes for 1vXing, then it's not because they are bad, it's because magblade is bad in 1vXing.

    Compared to Magplars, Magblades come no where near the group utility magplars provide to a pvp group, much more useful to have a magplar than magblade in a small group or anygroup.

    The only classes I'd agree that magblade is kind of equivalently useless to in group PVP is magDK, they both perform well if they get paired against specific opponents. MagDK's get rekt if the enemy team has too many bleeds, magblades get rekt if the enemy team has too many DK's and Warden's.

    Magwarden trails a bit behind as usual.

    But yeah, laughable if you think magblade is anywhere in top 5 for PVP content right now.

    I find the idea of Stam DK or Stam Templar in BGs laughable.

    Wut mobility?

    And this of course is only my opinion

    Stamplar is amazing though with group support Like in battle grounds. But I think the mobility he is talking about is heavy armor and Swift combined with either purge, wings, or FM. Any stamina build using the tools available will be better than magblade in PvP. even better if they use master dual wield and steel tornado. I also think magblade has dropped a little bit in wolf Hunter I now believe it to be behind both mag sorc and mag dk for Magicka classes and all Magicka classes are falling behind stamina. It will only get worse next patch.
  • Rex-Umbra
    Rex-Umbra
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    Agree with OP.
    Xbox GT: Rex Umbra IX
  • Rex-Umbra
    Rex-Umbra
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    As a NB Tank I gotta say its pretty unfair that DK abilities cost half a much and they can reflect all our abilities back at us.
    Xbox GT: Rex Umbra IX
  • Dojohoda
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    My input:

    STRIFE being reflectable is a bad joke.

    I have more to say but would rather stay on topic.
    Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
    Might be joking in comments.
  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    Strife isn't a projectile. I'm not shooting stuff at you I'm pulling stuff out of you. No reason it should be reflectable
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Alliance Warlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA
    I record things for fun and for info
    https://youtube.com/channel/UC0WuLVnsW177WKkKcvNuuYA
  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    technohic wrote: »
    I'd rather they look at concealed weapon as the spammable. That's your counter. I dont see any reason to make magblade capable of going completely ranged as well as sorc AND still be able to cloak away, well out of detect pot range

    Enjoy being a discount stamblade. TBH melee just feels like such a bad spec now
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Alliance Warlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA
    I record things for fun and for info
    https://youtube.com/channel/UC0WuLVnsW177WKkKcvNuuYA
  • Nicko_Lps
    Nicko_Lps
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    Yess!!!

    BUFF NIGHTBLADES!!!

    NOBODY MUST COUNTER THEM!!!
  • mr_wazzabi
    mr_wazzabi
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    NyassaV wrote: »
    Strife isn't a projectile. I'm not shooting stuff at you I'm pulling stuff out of you. No reason it should be reflectable

    Exactly. It actually has no travel time.
    Bosmer Stamina NB
    Altmer Magicka TEMP
    Dunmer DK both stam/mag (depends what I feel like)
    Altmer Magicka NB
    Breton Magicka Sorc
    Redguard Stam Sorc
    Max CP
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    At this point I wish they just buff NB even more through the roof, to the level of absolute hilarity. Then we can finally all just play NB, and the forum will be a lot more quiet.
    Edited by Feanor on October 1, 2018 4:32PM
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1100+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    Feanor wrote: »
    At this point I wish they just buff NB even more through the roof, to the level of absolute hilarity. Then we can finally all just play NB, and the forum will be a lot more quiet.

    TBH I'd call it a change for lore not a buff
    Flawless Conqueror ~ Alliance Warlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA
    I record things for fun and for info
    https://youtube.com/channel/UC0WuLVnsW177WKkKcvNuuYA
  • sly007
    sly007
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    likecats wrote: »
    Six or so odd patches ago force pulse was made unreflectable while strife was not. One of the big reason for this decision was that strife was almost half the cost of force pulse so it was a reasonable trade-off. But over the PTS iteration cycles, ZOS increased the cost for strife multiple times that it is now exactly the same cost force pulse.
    I'd appreciate if ZOS would rebalance strife to be unreflectable this DLC.

    I would just like to list the pros of both abilities to demonstrate that strife doesn't have much going for it so that's its reflectable while force pulse is not.
    Considering the fact reflectability is overwhelmingly pvp related, I'd appreciate if commentators do not try to use PVE reasons to derail this thread.

    Strife:
    - SImilar damage and same cost as force pulse.
    - Provides a weak HOT in PVP.
    - (Passive) Gives 8% max magicka to have at least one ability slotted from this tree line. (so not necessarily strife)
    - (Passive) Gives 3% healing done on bar slotted.
    - (Passive) Generates 2 ultimate every 4 second for activating an ability from this tree. (so not necessarily strife)

    Force Pulse:
    - Similar damage and same cost as strife.
    - Has a chance to proc all three status effects (fire, ice, shock).
    - (Passive) Gives 8% single target damage while having at least one ability slotted from tree line. (so not necessarily force pulse, also assuming person is using inferno staff)
    - (Passive) Has 10% spell penetration.
    - (Passive) Gives 3600 magicka if a desto ability kills target.
    - UNREFLECTABLE

    Comparing the passives, both strife and force pulse give similar stat bonuses, expect for the outlier that Force Pulse is unreflectable. Before the cost increase this difference was justified because strife was significantly cheaper than force pulse (almost half the cost).

    So why not just use force pulse?

    I for one appreciate different classes using different skills and think homogenising classes is the wrong way for this game to go. On my magblade I like the feeling of playing a blood mage, and strife is the best skill to symbolise that. There is no reason for it to have a major disadvantage over no perceivable reason. Once again, I hope ZOS makes this skill unreflectable to be more consistent with force pulse this PTS cycle.

    Because nb have a melee spammable. Because other class abilities can be reflected due to being ranged with the exception of birds which still needs to be able to be reflected.
  • technohic
    technohic
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    NyassaV wrote: »
    technohic wrote: »
    I'd rather they look at concealed weapon as the spammable. That's your counter. I dont see any reason to make magblade capable of going completely ranged as well as sorc AND still be able to cloak away, well out of detect pot range

    Enjoy being a discount stamblade. TBH melee just feels like such a bad spec now

    Still can cloak a lot more and be extremely fast while doing so. But if we compare almost anything to stamblade right now, we're all going to be disappointed.
  • Cronopoly
    Cronopoly
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    Back several patches ago it made sense. Now it still makes sense for different reasons as the NB continues to be pretty damn strong with Merciless proc, Concealed , Gap[ closes, Stealth...Choosing when to engage or disengage which I consider a Class Skill....

    If it was not reflectable how would any DK survive the weaving of Strife w ForcePulse / CrushingShock. NB's could laugh in the DK's face...

    Unless i'm wrong... :|
  • Nicko_Lps
    Nicko_Lps
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    Cronopoly wrote: »
    Back several patches ago it made sense. Now it still makes sense for different reasons as the NB continues to be pretty damn strong with Merciless proc, Concealed , Gap[ closes, Stealth...Choosing when to engage or disengage which I consider a Class Skill....

    If it was not reflectable how would any DK survive the weaving of Strife w ForcePulse / CrushingShock. NB's could laugh in the DK's face...

    Unless i'm wrong... :|

    DK's laugh flip flopping their wings on: Reach Magsorcs+Bowmen to that typical zergling templar that spams spears to melee that try to burst him down while he deals a massive consistent damage and heal like a ******, i find 0 reasons that DK should NOT laugh in the face of magblades.

    I know nightblades are this game special spoiled people, but at least its nice to see a class taking a GOOD care of them once in a while.
  • NyassaV
    NyassaV
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    Cronopoly wrote: »
    Back several patches ago it made sense. Now it still makes sense for different reasons as the NB continues to be pretty damn strong with Merciless proc, Concealed , Gap[ closes, Stealth...Choosing when to engage or disengage which I consider a Class Skill....

    If it was not reflectable how would any DK survive the weaving of Strife w ForcePulse / CrushingShock. NB's could laugh in the DK's face...

    Unless i'm wrong... :|

    I mean I've used force pulse against DKs and they still negate a lot of damage due to light attacks or cripple. It's not a giant loss for the DK. If you die from strife spam then you probably deserve to die anyways

    Flawless Conqueror ~ Alliance Warlord
    She/Her ~ PC/NA
    I record things for fun and for info
    https://youtube.com/channel/UC0WuLVnsW177WKkKcvNuuYA
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    NyassaV wrote: »
    Strife isn't a projectile. I'm not shooting stuff at you I'm pulling stuff out of you. No reason it should be reflectable

    Nope, its a ball of life drain that goes to the enemy and pulls energy out of them. You can see it if you look close, though its a bit harder now its animation was sped up. With your reasoning it should be unblockable, unreflectable and undodgable too.
    Can't say I am a fan of wings in any light, its the stupid RPS style that I hate, but flat nerfing instead of a re-balance it is stupid and very ZOS like.
    Edited by ak_pvp on October 2, 2018 4:11PM
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
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