Shield comparison for upcoming changes. Whats the problem?

The_Camper

So the conjured ward and annulment shields got instant cast back and will be capped at 40% of players health. We still do not know whether battle spirit would affect the 40% condition in PVP, so assuming the condition is applied after the battle spirit and they are still capped at 40%, lets take a look at how they compare against other shields. As it is always good to compare changes with numbers and statistics and NOT based on your feelings towards the changes.

Player: 20k HP. wearing 5 light armor pieces

Annulment - 8k shield pve/pvp ---- Cost: 3.9k mag
---- chance of getting 3k mag back with Harness
---- 25% shield increase with Dampen (yet to see in pts whether this will override 40% condition or not)

Conjured Ward - 8k shield in pve/pvp --- Cost: 2.7k / 2.9k mag
---- 10% magicka rec for 10 sec with Empowered ward
---- 23% shield increase with Hardened ward (yet to see in pts whether this will override 40% condition or not)

DK Igneous shield - 6k shield in pve/ 3k in pvp --- Cost: 3.6k mag
---- Major mending for 3 seconds

Templar Sun shield - 6.4k shield in pve/ 3.2k in pvp --- Cost: 3.7k mag
---- Ability to damage enemies upon activation
---- Ability to damage enemies nearby upon expiry.

Bone shield - 6.4k shield in pve/ 3.2k in pvp ---Cost: 3.6k stamina
---- allies nearby can activate synergy for a shield of 109%/ 54% of their HP
---- Bone surge: Major vitality for allies for 5 seconds /Spiked : deals part of direct damage absorbed to enemies nearby upon expiry.

With these conditions alone, the current change to ward and annulment seems VERY balanced and in par with other shields and Sorcerer shield has the lowest cost compared to the others. So why all the nagging from sorcs even after the 1 sec cast time was removed? Now half of them wants 1 second cast time back instead of these shields. Most of the Magblades/ LA Magplars/ LA Magdks use annulment and none of them seem to be flooding forums with threads saying their class is unplayable. Yet, what's the problem with above shield values that specially and only magsorcs seem to have? Is it the lack of two shields on you that amounts to 35k in total while you can put all your focus into Spell damage and max magicka?

The_Camper

Note: Didn't include Shimmering shield for obvious reasons

Bergzorn

We should wait for how it is implemented exactly.

I'm happy the cast time is gone. There will be A LOT to test with the shield cap + resistances + crit changes.

Overall, still, light armor got hit very hard for PvP (and PvE but I don't know much about that).

The_Camper

Bergzorn wrote: »

We should wait for how it is implemented exactly.

I'm happy the cast time is gone. There will be A LOT to test with the shield cap + resistances + crit changes.

Overall, still, light armor got hit very hard for PvP (and PvE but I don't know much about that).

True and much more testing is needed when it drops in PTS to see how they actually perform. But in paper, these changes are actually much better than a cast time and addresses the issue of people stacking multiple shields and have 30k shields on them at all times.

What i don't understand is, the people who cry that these changes being so bad that they can't even play their class anymore are... Sorcerers! when other light armor mag classes are seemingly contempt with these changes.

Odovacar

Wish us console scrubs could test these changes for ourselves.

Thanks for the breakdown @The_Camper

grannas211

The_Camper wrote: »

So the conjured ward and annulment shields got instant cast back and will be capped at 40% of players health. We still do not know whether battle spirit would affect the 40% condition in PVP, so assuming the condition is applied after the battle spirit and they are still capped at 40%, lets take a look at how they compare against other shields. As it is always good to compare changes with numbers and statistics and NOT based on your feelings towards the changes.

Player: 20k HP. wearing 5 light armor pieces

Annulment - 8k shield pve/pvp ---- Cost: 3.9k mag
---- chance of getting 3k mag back with Harness
---- 25% shield increase with Dampen (yet to see in pts whether this will override 40% condition or not)

Conjured Ward - 8k shield in pve/pvp --- Cost: 2.7k / 2.9k mag
---- 10% magicka rec for 10 sec with Empowered ward
---- 23% shield increase with Hardened ward (yet to see in pts whether this will override 40% condition or not)

DK Igneous shield - 6k shield in pve/ 3k in pvp --- Cost: 3.6k mag
---- Major mending for 3 seconds

Templar Sun shield - 6.4k shield in pve/ 3.2k in pvp --- Cost: 3.7k mag
---- Ability to damage enemies upon activation
---- Ability to damage enemies nearby upon expiry.

Bone shield - 6.4k shield in pve/ 3.2k in pvp ---Cost: 3.6k stamina
---- allies nearby can activate synergy for a shield of 109%/ 54% of their HP
---- Bone surge: Major mending for allies for 5 seconds /Spiked : deals part of direct damage absorbed to enemies nearby upon expiry.

With these conditions alone, the current change to ward and annulment seems VERY balanced and in par with other shields and Sorcerer shield has the lowest cost compared to the others. So why all the nagging from sorcs even after the 1 sec cast time was removed? Now half of them wants 1 second cast time back instead of these shields. Most of the Magblades/ LA Magplars/ LA Magdks use annulment and none of them seem to be flooding forums with threads saying their class is unplayable. Yet, what's the problem with above shield values that specially and only magsorcs seem to have? Is it the lack of two shields on you that amounts to 35k in total while you can put all your focus into Spell damage and max magicka?

Totally. Because Dks and Templars rely on shields as their only form of defense. Oh wait..

caperon

What about Barrier and Leap shields?

The_Camper

grannas211 wrote: »

Totally. Because Dks and Templars rely on shields as their only form of defense. Oh wait..

apart from shields,

Magdks use wings to reflect incoming damage and has increased healing to compensate their lack of mobility.

Magplars have cleanse and increased healing to compensate their lack of mobility.

Magsorcs have streak and mines to use in order to LOS and defend from heavy melee damage.

Whats your point?

Danksta

Spiked Bone Shield gives Major Vitality, not Major Mending.

The_Camper

caperon wrote: »

What about Barrier and Leap shields?

Ultimates and I didn't include them because they are not spammable and not always available on demand

The_Camper

Danksta wrote: »

Spiked Bone Shield gives Major Vitality, not Major Mending.

fixed. thanks

Perwulf

Spoon feeding is the problem, they've got spoiled too much on easy mode. What's the point on wearing heavy and be magicka when light armor sorc does it better? On the contrary, light armor shouldn't be able to tank effectively whilst doing insane amount of damage because logically, you shouldn't have both.

Mayrael

ravenarc wrote: »

Spoon feeding is the problem, they've got spoiled too much on easy mode. What's the point on wearing heavy and be magicka when light armor sorc does it better? On the contrary, light armor shouldn't be able to tank effectively whilst doing insane amount of damage because logically, you shouldn't have both.

On contrary heavy armored dude shouldn't be able to pull out damage as high as LA user, also shouldn't be able to sustain as long.

carlos424

The_Camper wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

We should wait for how it is implemented exactly.

I'm happy the cast time is gone. There will be A LOT to test with the shield cap + resistances + crit changes.

Overall, still, light armor got hit very hard for PvP (and PvE but I don't know much about that).

True and much more testing is needed when it drops in PTS to see how they actually perform. But in paper, these changes are actually much better than a cast time and addresses the issue of people stacking multiple shields and have 30k shields on them at all times.

What i don't understand is, the people who cry that these changes being so bad that they can't even play their class anymore are... Sorcerers! when other light armor mag classes are seemingly contempt with these changes.

Actually, as a magplar, the changes to annulment do suck. And if the goal was to address shield stacking, then why not stop shields from stacking. Lol. Too easy I guess. So now I’m going to have to sacrifice some dps, on an already average dps character, for survivability. Oh, and I’m seriously considering stacking annulment and blazing shield, and Ive never stacked shields before. Lol. So much for addressing shield stacking.

Apherius

I wonder if it work like that. They said it still scall off our maximum magicka but cap the total shield amount to 40% of your character’s maximum health.

Let's imagine a player with 40K HP:

= 16K shield max, do you need a magicka pool superior or equal to " X " ? Or you will get 16K shield no matter how much magicka you have ?

Then with 22K HP:

= 8K8 shield max, do you need a magicka pool superior or equal to " Y " ? I believe Y would be inferior to X ( Y<X)

i'm right ?

What about bastion ? Will the bonus reduce the magicka pool size needed for maximum shield strength ?

carlos424

I would imagine that they would not allow a tank with 40+k health and no magicka to also have a larger shield than anyone else. So, yes I think you would also have to have a large magicka pool to get a 16k shield with 40k health. I hope : )

Jhalin

It was made fairly clear that there's meant to be a balance between how much offensive stat you're stacking and your ability to negate damage. From the wording used, shields maximum possible value will scale with mag, as before, but only a certain amount can be applied based on your max hp.

So big hp pool, smaller max shield value, higher cap (that will not be reachable due to lack of mag)

big mag pool, larger max shield value, smaller cap (that will be hit due to mag pools)

deLioncourt

Jhalin wrote: »

It was made fairly clear that there's meant to be a balance between how much offensive stat you're stacking and your ability to negate damage. From the wording used, shields maximum possible value will scale with mag, as before, but only a certain amount can be applied based on your max hp.

So big hp pool, smaller max shield value, higher cap (that will not be reachable due to lack of mag)

big mag pool, larger max shield value, smaller cap (that will be hit due to mag pools)

Sounds like it was designed by a couple of monkeys smashing their poop on a keyboard.

Rex-Umbra

So 16k shield stacking still possible?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

What you leave out is the other defense mechanisms that are inherent to classes.

First, let’s talk Sorcs ward vs annulment. Every light armor user has access to the later. On live, harness magic in cyro gets me within about 500 points of the projected cap and ward takes me over it. Going over is meaningless so it’s wasted. Harness also ends up being nearly free assuming you are getting hit. So, why use ward? The mitigation difference is negligible, and one ends up being significantly cheaper most of the time.

So now, let’s compare a light armor Sorc to any other magic class. Let’s assume they all use annulment or one of the morphs. A DK has wings and GDB. Then can pop a shield while reflect projectiles and if they get low, they can pop a quick heal. Wardens are similar, alhough their healing frankly better. They can stack annulment and shimmering shield. Templars have breath of life and a cheap purge and various other heals if they chose to use them. NBs have evasion and oh by they way, they can vanish at basically any time.

Historically, what Sorcs could do was stack a shield or 2 on top of that. Now that is gone and what are they left with? A heal tied to a cast time/double barred pet that might get killed? Boundless storm that gives they same buffs every other class is already running? Surge? A very low HOT that requires sustain pressure from burst class to be effective. Dark Conversion? A channel skill which is nearly impossible to use when under pressure? Streak? A mobility tool that is nullified by Gap closers and laughable compared to the Swift meta? A resto staff? Again available to everyone?

With a 40% cap, Sorcs will be far and away the squishiest LA class in the game. Even on live, they are middle of the pack at best for defense assuming you are playing a competent opponent. In out numbered scenarios (not talking fighting a Zerg, talking 1v 2-4), they are already in dead Last on live.

And the worst part is, they put this under the guise of wanting healers to feel useful in PVE. Well, a 40% shield is plenty for any PVE content. Nothing is going to change there.

carlos424

Ya. The problem is that other classes, as well as sorcs, will have to start slotting heals and other skills to stay alive. With slots already at a premium this will result in either sacrificing survivability or dps. While already strong stam classes will have to make no changes. The rich get richer.

Hurtfan

carlos424 wrote: »

Ya. The problem is that other classes, as well as sorcs, will have to start slotting heals and other skills to stay alive. With slots already at a premium this will result in either sacrificing survivability or dps. While already strong stam classes will have to make no changes. The rich get richer.

You can slot heals on the overload bar...problem sol...errrrr

Sennecca

it could also be due to the fact that many other classes have more debuffs and other forms of damage mitigation that sorcerers do not have. if playing a pet, 2 slots are taken up on each bar. that leaves 3 slots one of which is would have to be your shield. that leaves 2 slots on one bar, 3 on the other. now if a sorc wants a heal, they have to slot dark exchange (which is also getting a nerf) if they heal themselves with dark exchange, they now have no stamina to roll dodge out of an attack. ( Or rely on crit hits healing them from power surge. I can't remember if that also is being nerfed.) Sincelthey are not a stamina class, if they decide to try to not heal and instead roll dodge they can they can't do it more than once or twice and by then won't have enough stamina left to use dark exchange to heal)

there is a nice comparison of the classes with each classes debuffs listed.
the warden can apply 5, nightblade 4, dragonknight 3, templar 5, sorcerer 0.

I am a casual player and am very far from a top tier player, but my magicka dragon knight and magicka nightblade both very rarely played, in mediocre gear can out dps my sorc in legendary gear.

The stats on the debuffs came from a nice you tube from TeAlry called "in depth review of sorc nerf/buffs... "
in which the history of the buffs to the sorc then all the nerfs are reviewed update by update. (1:09 into the video).

WhipSmartMcoy

I LOVE the idea of a cap. Especially that it's tied to health and not magic. Your damage shields will still scale off max magic, it's just that they won't be higher than 40% max health. Like OP says, no idea what that means for skills like Annulment and hardened ward, but we'll see.

On live my mag sorc has 23k health and a 10k empowered ward. After the update it will be a 9.2k shield that you can crit. As far as shield strength goes I lose almost nothing BUT the points in Bastion are now being wasted. If the cap is 40% max health then bastion becomes useless after a certain amount depending on your build. Now I can safely change a mag enchantment to health, AND move some cp around in my defensive trees while still having a big fat shield. It won't be impossible to have a lot of health, and resistances, and shield strength.
Trading some magic (damage) for health so that you have more survivability feels balanced to me. Can't wait to see how it plays out.

And before anyone says anything about how weak sorc damage already is, I agree. However despite the needs to damage, I still make it work and will keep making it work till they throw us an offensive bone.

BigBadVolk

Mayrael wrote: »

ravenarc wrote: »

Spoon feeding is the problem, they've got spoiled too much on easy mode. What's the point on wearing heavy and be magicka when light armor sorc does it better? On the contrary, light armor shouldn't be able to tank effectively whilst doing insane amount of damage because logically, you shouldn't have both.

On contrary heavy armored dude shouldn't be able to pull out damage as high as LA user, also shouldn't be able to sustain as long.

and shouldnt be faster

starkerealm

Odovacar wrote: »

Wish us console scrubs could test these changes for ourselves.

Thanks for the breakdown @The_Camper

Emigrate.

Since the consoles require certification before they'll push a patch to their platforms (without devkits), if you want to test this stuff out, the answer is to get a PC account.

caperon wrote: »

What about Barrier and Leap shields?

Those are unaffected. The only shields that the 40% cap applies to are Annulment and Ward. Everything else is business as usual, with the resistance buff and crit nerf.

DeadlyRecluse

It's all very ad hoc until the proposed changes actually hit PTS, but these numbers are ignoring the fact that many magsorcs (and magNBs, and to a lesser extent other magicka specs) run less than 20K HP in light armor, and have significantly larger shields than 8k.

Kel

The complaint comes from needing to sacrifice damage for anything. You'll see the same complaining when mobility on a sorc is brought up and the suggestion of swift jewelry is put out there.
They want it all with no risk to the damage they do.
It's as simple as that.

MLGProPlayer

As a magicka main, I'm fine with these changes on paper (I haven't tested them in any content yet though).

I think it not only brings these shields in line with other shields, as you mention, but also stamina damage mitigation. Weaker (but not useless, as a cast time would have made them) shields allow room for stamina characters in PvE content. Prior to these changes, shields were unquestionably superior to dodging/blocking.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

As a magicka main, I'm fine with these changes on paper (I haven't tested them in any content yet though).

I think it not only brings these shields in line with other shields, as you mention, but also stamina damage mitigation. Weaker (but not useless, as a cast time would have made them) shields allow room for stamina characters in PvE content. Prior to these changes, shields were unquestionably superior to dodging/blocking.

40% of health is plenty of shield for PVE. Stam is going to be exactly where it is next patch (they have leveled the DPS pretty well on PTS among Stam classses). You will stack as many as possible in the first 5 trials, and nightblades will dominate VCR and VAS. Stam is just fine in all 4 man content currently, perhaps a bit trickier to play, but at the reward of significantly more damage. It’s a reasonable trade off.

The only thing this cap is going to do is severely nerf Sorcs in PvP as they are the only class that is dependent on stacking shields.

If they are dead set on preventing shield stacking, then PLEASE replace hardened ward with something else for defense because as it stand right now, annulment is just as good (and available to all). Sorcs will have no class defining defense once this goes live.

carlos424

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

As a magicka main, I'm fine with these changes on paper (I haven't tested them in any content yet though).

I think it not only brings these shields in line with other shields, as you mention, but also stamina damage mitigation. Weaker (but not useless, as a cast time would have made them) shields allow room for stamina characters in PvE content. Prior to these changes, shields were unquestionably superior to dodging/blocking.

Yes, and shields should be superior to dodging and blocking as magicka players have such a small pool of stamina, not to mention having to use light armor to even use annulment and for all meaningful magicka passives. I’m fine with nerfing shields but what seems to amount to about a 70% nerf seems a bit extreme imo.