[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - September 25

Quantum_V

ManDraKE wrote: »

So people is finally getting away with nerfing forward momentum? The argument that foward momentum makes heavy armor more mobile than medium is absurd, the problem is not heavy armor or forward momentum, the problem is that medium armor SUCKS. The passives are medicore, shuffle is ***, the lack of resistences&healing&health compared to heavy doesn't work in the current burst meta, the only effective medium builds atm are with impregnable, and the only reason they work is because impregnable is broken af. The solution is not a nerf to forward momentum, is a buff to medium armor, starting with shuffle and with that useless stealth passive that is a waste of skill points.

Stamblades being more effective as brawler now is the result of the change of meta. Old nighblade playstyle doesn't work, medium is ***, the game is full of undoggeable things, people is hitting really hard, etc. Also there is nothing wrong with being able to play an effective brawler, i'm not interested in being forced to run a roly poly build again, specially on this meta.

Dimishh returns for stacking movement speed bonuses is something i've suggested since the whole swift drama started. Is the logical choice for solving this. Nerfing major expedition would be really dumb.

I couldn't avoid laughting when i read the magDK part, they can't deal with bleads and defiles? lol. The self healing of the magDKs is insane, is absurd how much healing you can get on a magDK even while going full ofensive. Get real, if the magDKs lacks healing then i will make a post saying that stamblades lacks damage lol.

Hey @ManDraKE!

I would highly encourage you to read the post again.

No one said that mdks healing is bad, it was said that they have an unproportional hard time dealing with defiles - that’s a completely different argument. Careful to not fall into the scarecrow fallacy. Taking the most common playstyles into consideration:

-Both templars possess purge.
- Magsorcs have shields, so basically ignore defiles.
- Nightblades can cloak to mitigate damage and partially heal while clocked, as defiles aren’t an issue in a vacuum.
-Most of the stamina classes are mobile enough to avoid a lot of damage, specially with swift currently. Yet they are obviously also affected by defiles.

That essentially leaves DKs to take defiles entirely. Even though DKs have great healing (which noone is debating against) having them cut by 80% negates that, thus the point being made about defiles.

Everyone is affected by defiles, thats for sure. But defiles were buffed to the point to where they are right now to essentially nerf tanks, which have common defense mechanisms as those as dk. So it is reasonable to assume that they arguably get affected the hardest by that change.

Hopefully I was able to clarify some points!

Have a good one!

DorianDragonRaze

These are good news! Any chance we don't loose the overload 3rd bar?

Savos_Saren

While I'm glad that my Sorc's shields aren't nerfed as much anymore- can we revert the changes to DK blocking and Templar healing? That has happened in the past?

Because, quite honestly, this is mother [snip]ing bull[snip]. ZOS is effectively catering to one class after neutering two.

Dashmatt

Solariken wrote: »

Good stuff here. A few thoughts:

4 seconds of immunity on Forward Momentum would be more appropriate and more in line with Shuffle. Shuffle also needs a decrease in cost and Major Evasion duration.

Swift. It needs toned down but not straight up nerfed. I've suggested it be changed to +5% movement speed AND +5% sprint speed. This retains the maximum benefit but slows people down when they are actually in combat and casting skills.

The Major Expedition speed amount is balanced in my opinion, the only problem is uptime in some cases (*cough* speed pots).

Agree with all this. Thanks for not making me type it.

ruikkarikun

And about 40% HP shield cap, maybe you can increase it a little bit too...

starkerealm

UrQuan wrote: »

arasysb14_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

They acknowledged this and did more than insinuate that sorcerer offense is going to be reformed in the future (at one point, a dev asked out loud if they could be specific. They could not). We told them without these offensive changes it was asking too much to hit the sorcerers with a nerf to their defense first and make them wait for this vague promise in the future. We also mentioned, numerous times, that the mechanic of cast-times is something that is disliked by many people because it breaks the flow of the fluid and ast paced combat that defines ESO. We also went through a bunch of other various reasons that folks on the forums and discords brought up. In short, we pressed and that’s why it lasted over 30 minutes.

With the changes to resistances, having instant cast damage shields is even going to make them even stronger in PvE. We acknowledged this as a potential issue and agreed some adjustment was going to be needed.

Can we keep our ward instant till we at least hear about how sorcerer's offensive skills are going to be reformed? Just make shields unstackable, and without applied resistance? So far it sounded like "you'll be playing a broken class for awhile".

I think you missed this part, especially the bold:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Yesterday afternoon, we met with our Class Reps to discuss the changes currently on the PTS. But first, before we get to the meeting notes - we know everyone feels strongly about the changes made to Annulment and Conjured Ward in last week’s PTS patch, and we’ve been reading everyone’s feedback both in-game and across various forums and chats. As we mentioned during our meeting with the Class Reps yesterday, we are open to making adjustments as long as we are still meeting our original goals.

We’ve had a lot of discussions over the past week, and after digesting everything we’ve seen and read, in addition to talking with the Class Reps, we’re making the decision to revert the cast time for both of these shield abilities. In one of the upcoming PTS patches, Annulment and Conjured Ward will now be instant-cast abilities that scale off your maximum Magicka (as they do on live currently), but cap the total shield amount to 40% of your character’s maximum health. Our goal with the damage shield changes has been to address the fact that you can create builds that maximize damage while ignoring defense. We think it’s great some players want to play like a glass cannon, but those builds should have tradeoffs in reduced survivability. By limiting damage shield strength on max health, it makes the health stat much more attractive than it was previously for damage shield users.

Yeah, I like this, actually.

Minno

Dashmatt wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Good stuff here. A few thoughts:

4 seconds of immunity on Forward Momentum would be more appropriate and more in line with Shuffle. Shuffle also needs a decrease in cost and Major Evasion duration.

Swift. It needs toned down but not straight up nerfed. I've suggested it be changed to +5% movement speed AND +5% sprint speed. This retains the maximum benefit but slows people down when they are actually in combat and casting skills.

The Major Expedition speed amount is balanced in my opinion, the only problem is uptime in some cases (*cough* speed pots).

Agree with all this. Thanks for not making me type it.

I agree. That change would be decent.

AlienatedGoat

Instant cast is required in this fast paced combat.

40% of max hp is pretty freaking low considering most DPS only run ~17k.

A 7k shield isn't worth anything, even my DK Tank's Igneous shield is more than that.

Irylia

let's not kid ourselves.
It was the 46k views and 1k+ comments on the sorc thread that got the ward cast reverted.

Minno

ruikkarikun wrote: »

And about 40% HP shield cap, maybe you can increase it a little bit too...

5% more than what Templars currently get in PvP and 10% more in pve lol

AlienatedGoat

Also consider this ZOS: if you're trying to even the survivability between mag and stam, that contradicts every change you've made in the past 3 years when you said you wanted mag to have higher survivability but stam to have higher damage.

If you nerf mag survivability to bring it in line with stam, you also need to buff mag damage to bring in line with stam. It's only fair.

Dymence

Phage wrote: »

Instant cast is required in this fast paced combat.

40% of max hp is pretty freaking low considering most DPS only run ~17k.

A 7k shield isn't worth anything, even my DK Tank's Igneous shield is more than that.

Yeah this actually may or may not be worse than a cast time for PVE...

AlienatedGoat

Dymence wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Instant cast is required in this fast paced combat.

40% of max hp is pretty freaking low considering most DPS only run ~17k.

A 7k shield isn't worth anything, even my DK Tank's Igneous shield is more than that.

Yeah this actually may or may not be worse than a cast time for PVE...

It's better and worse at the same time. They reverted one nerf and gave us another.

Jim_Pipp

Nice. This well-written report shows why the class rep program was a great idea. It does sound like player issues are being put forward.

If I could give some suggestions to both zos and the reps.

Zos - reading these notes it is clear that there was not enough time to discuss everything that should have been discussed. I'm sure you are busy, but the class reps are a resource only if you use them.

Class reps - you alude to ideas you have (e.g. how to balance CP), and say you will email details to zos. Would it be possible to post those emails on the forums and include a link to them? It would be nice to know about everything zos gets informed of during your meetings.

Thanks again for doing this!

RedRook

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hi everyone,
We’ve had a lot of discussions over the past week, and after digesting everything we’ve seen and read, in addition to talking with the Class Reps, we’re making the decision to revert the cast time for both of these shield abilities. In one of the upcoming PTS patches, Annulment and Conjured Ward will now be instant-cast abilities that scale off your maximum Magicka (as they do on live currently), but cap the total shield amount to 40% of your character’s maximum health. Our goal with the damage shield changes has been to address the fact that you can create builds that maximize damage while ignoring defense. We think it’s great some players want to play like a glass cannon, but those builds should have tradeoffs in reduced survivability. By limiting damage shield strength on max health, it makes the health stat much more attractive than it was previously for damage shield users.

Good for you. + 5 respect for not sticking to your guns on this.

Haven't a clue what this new change will look like on the field, but it looks a hell of a lot better from here than a cast time.

Agree there should be a meaningful tradeoff to go full damage. And I'll just stop right there.

Dymence

Phage wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Phage wrote: »

Instant cast is required in this fast paced combat.

40% of max hp is pretty freaking low considering most DPS only run ~17k.

A 7k shield isn't worth anything, even my DK Tank's Igneous shield is more than that.

Yeah this actually may or may not be worse than a cast time for PVE...

It's better and worse at the same time. They reverted one nerf and gave us another.

With a cast time you get to watch yourself die while casting

With this new 40% hp instant cast shield you get to watch yourself die at a slightly slower but still too fast rate than if you wouldn't have any shield at all, or so I would think

eso_lags

@ZOS_GinaBruno So does that change to shields occur before or after battle spirit. Because shields are cut in half in pvp. So if a sorc has like 20-24k health, as most do, then they can expect an 8k - 12k shield? (not the best a math). But if you cut it in half because of battle spirit then a sorc with that amount of health is looking at a very small shield. Can someone clarify?

And again, @ZOS_GinaBruno , It is amazing that you guys want to give stam sorc a stamina based ultimate. Thats cool. As far as i can tell an air atro will not help with most pvp stam sorcs play styles (unless it offers a significant damage buff to the player or deals some insane damage) but im defiantly happy to see that you want to give something else to stam sorc..

However.. This is still the same issue. We are the most gimped class in the game when it comes to skills and passives. We have so little to work with. The things we do have are solid but every other class in the game has more abilities that are just as good. So again, please do not nerf a class that is almost never buffed and is already at the bottom. Please.

Again, we need the overload bar (in pvp) to compensate for what we dont have. Stam sorc has great mobility, which has been nerfed because everyone has mobility now if they want it with swift. Great sustain with dark deal, which is now nerfed and other classes have better sustain tools (or just as good). And a third bar to let us buff our damage since we dont have self buffs like nightblade or warden, but that too is now being threatened. Dont take away the little identity the class has.

If you want to buff the class then great. Tbh it blew my mind that you guys buffed stamplar like you did while stam sorc is the way that it is. I love my stamplar. Its already so good. But if you want to buff stam sorc then give us some stuff to put us on par with everyone else, then make adjustments. A real, useful, damage ult. Some damage skills. Maybe some buffs. Maybe even a spam-able. You can always adjust it later.

Or just leave us alone like youve been doing and let us work it out like weve been doing. But at least dont touch the class unless you want to improve it, not make things more difficult for us...

Krymzonbladez

40% Hp shield? That's ridiculous and nearly pointless, almost as bad as leaving the cast time. You're ignoring the fact that dps have low HP, it's not a Choice of wanting to be a glass cannon, it's having to be a glass cannon to meet the dps requirements for vet and trials content. Without the proper dps you can't get past certain dmg thresholds needed to actually FOLLOW the mechanics properly. IT's not about the top 5-10% it's about everyone you're ignoring that as a whole. Not everyone has perfect parses or knows how to parse properly. Doing these of testing dummies is also pointless as it's static, you should be doing these in trials and vets and pvp instances then go from there, not going by static target dummies that have no mechanics to follow. It's not just about Sorcs either, all magicka based dps classes use light armor for the passives gained to sustain and crit and so forth, they are essential to keep your sustain up and your dps constant. With this I'll have to use more than one shield on my bars, taking away a scarce ability slot, that's already hard to fill properly due to skills to increase dps because of their passives such as inner light and so forth. These idiots need to actually PLAY the game and content rather than just come up with stuff off the top of their heads they THINK is causing an issue.

Jhalin

Annulment shouldn’t be attached to a class skill as if they’re the same skill. Sorcs should excel in their class’ primary defense tool.

Ward should not have its effectiveness capped, it’s a class skill.

Annulment base skill should be instant, up to 50% max hp

Dampen Magicka should be instant and uncapped (added strength)

Harness Magicka should be instant, up to 50% max hp, return mag when hit by elemental/magic damage (added sustain)

ccfeeling

Will DK tank shield bigger than pure magicka Pet Sorc shield ?

DarcyMardin

Great job, class reps, and thanks very much for listening, devs.

ezio45

I dont know how I feel about this. I have disagreement with alot of the view point zos has on this.

From a non pet sorc vet trials i dont see myself straight up avoiding mechanics just spamming shields. I dont see how or why sorc should have to make "more difficult choices" with defense, when I dont see anyone else making making these choices in pve. Even stam wears all divs in pve. From my perspective at least with shields it requires more frequent casting and resources were stams is a set duration that is part of a rotation. Shields are more effective but I dont see why because of that the class needs to be forced into something else. The shield itself either needs to be less strong while retaining its usability and function or more preferable stam needs better survivability.

In pvp I already give up alot to survive, shackle breaker for the stam to break cc and sometimes that isnt even enough and thats just a problem with light armor builds ingeneral and a sustain set to just be able to last in a fight. I dont want to build like im playing a stam character, why would i play mag if it it feels the same as stam but doesnt have the advantages that stam has.

This line I take particular issue with "My impression is that ZOS is agreeable to making a different sort of adjustment, but they still want to keep their goals of Stamina Vs. Magicka survivability, want some sort of diversity into how sorcerers defend themselves"

If we did this first we would need a viable method for doing that, sorc has nothing besides shields to do that with. Please, some developer tell me how im suppose to do that. Not trying to be rude or sarcastic with that. I genuinely want to know how zos wants sorcs to build because i dont understand this vision for the future of the game. I dont know how to build like this... for this.... Also I dont see most sorcs wanting to build differently into defense, i dont even know if it would feel like your playing a sorc at that point.

Zos im listening, ill hear you out but I really am not on board with this and I dont know if were gunna be able to find a middle ground to stand on with the vision for the future of the game. That makes me both very sad and very disheartened. I really do enjoy this game and want to keep playing. It just very much feels like im following and loving everything zos is doing with the exception of the combat team and i cant be down with what their aiming for.

Edwin

Instead of nerfing Major Expedition or Swift why not alter the speed cap in PvP via Battle Spirit? Make the cap like 180% in PvP and keep it at 200% for the rest of the game.

If players are too fast it's the speed cap that should be looked at.

There is already a trade-off in resources & damage when you choose Swift over Robust or Arcane.

Nerfing Forward Momentum would make Rally the most used morph, there is a good balance currently between the morphs.

Magicka characters benefit from Swift, nerfing that will nerf magicka aswell.

ezio45

@ZOS_GinaBruno is shield being removed from combat spirit?

Acrolas

I'm more concerned that this sends a message to certain people that you can throw tantrums and bully online until you get what you want.

I don't care what the developers decide on. They're the developers and they get to decide the creative direction the game takes. I have fourteen other characters to fall back on if one's ever not ideal for a certain situation.

Even giving the illusion that it's a community process has left us in worse shape than we were before Update 20 testing. The community needs to dial it back, and the developers need to grow a backbone because even without a lot of face time, it's still a leadership role and it has to feel like leadership. Not a constant push-pull with the social media comment sections.

Lake

With that one issue sucking up most of the oxygen - I hope the next meeting will have more discussion time for the other classes and roles without having to resort to only emails.

ezio45

this is a 68% nerf for my shield.....

efster

I understand that the shield changes took up a lot of time and so other matters couldn't be discussed, and it was a very important discussion to have, and I'm glad to hear that the change is being reversed.

HOWEVER

I hope the devs will actually read the detailed feedback mentioned in the summary and throw NB tanks a bone BEFORE this PTS cycle completes.

ZOS has a long track record of only giving a heck about DPS class diversity and not support role class diversity, so it's a very faint hope.

Put another way, you're about to completely gut NB tanking for a second time, PLZ STOP IT. Don't make us wait another update cycle, you made an already largely useless tank class even more useless for 9 months with Morrowind and YOU ARE ABOUT TO DO IT AGAIN.

Numerikuu

Glad they revoked the cast time on shields. But 40% of max hp?....... If you're going to weaken them that much for light armor/PvE users, make them cheaper to bloody cast.

Drummerx04

So are any of these changes meant to allow sorcs/mag characters to keep themselves alive with shields at all? What is a 7k capped shield going to do for me in pvp (or difficult pve for that matter). If you really don't want mag characters to be able to survive things, then just remove shields outright and stop pretending they'll be useful in their super nerfed forms.

It's not an "exciting" choice to require extra health for slightly more usable shields or full glass cannon with a shield that can't survive a single god damn strike from a stam character.

At this point just turn Annulment into a magicka Vigor and call it a *** day.