Don't forget to adjust speed potions :)

Solariken

I just wanted to toss up another reminder that the Major Expedition uptime from speed potions needs some attention.

Even with 3 potion effects, the uptime on Major Expedition is 100%. Full uptime is fine if only one potion effect, but it overperforms significantly when combined.

The biggest issue with speed pots is that it gives the most powerful buff in PvP with full uptime and zero explicit cost. This eliminates the primary drawback that some builds are supposed to have - namely super high weapon damage heavy armor snare-immune builds.

It also marginalizes the active skills that grant this powerful buff but which cost actual resources to maintain.

I would advocate for ~50% uptime after Medicinal Use passive, but it doesn't even have to be that drastic if you have good reasons why it should be longer.

CyrusArya

First let every class natively have access to major expedition without having to slot specific weapons, then we can even begin to have this conversation. Speed pots promote build variety and have a trade off in the opportunity cost of using other powerful potions.

It’s funny you say there is 0 cost when they actually have the most obvious cost of all...they are expensive. Speed pots are the number one gold sink in the game for many end game pvpers, and I highly doubt zos is just gonna remove that. If anything, the only change that needs to happen is the introduction of magicka speed immov potions.

Royaji

CyrusArya wrote: »

First let every class natively have access to major expedition without having to slot specific weapons, then we can even begin to have this conversation. Speed pots promote build variety and have a trade off in the opportunity cost of using other powerful potions.

It’s funny you say there is 0 cost when they actually have the most obvious cost of all...they are expensive. Speed pots are the number one gold sink in the game for many end game pvpers, and I highly doubt zos is just gonna remove that. If anything, the only change that needs to happen is the introduction of magicka speed immov potions.

Not arguing any other points but... Gold sink makes currency disappear from the game. Since pots are bought from other players and not from NPCs they can not be a goldsink.

PickleRick

CyrusArya wrote: »

First let every class natively have access to major expedition without having to slot specific weapons, then we can even begin to have this conversation. Speed pots promote build variety and have a trade off in the opportunity cost of using other powerful potions.

It’s funny you say there is 0 cost when they actually have the most obvious cost of all...they are expensive. Speed pots are the number one gold sink in the game for many end game pvpers, and I highly doubt zos is just gonna remove that. If anything, the only change that needs to happen is the introduction of magicka speed immov potions.

You also lose out on other potion options.

Its not as if Vitality+Lingering pots don't exist and work about as well as a defensive ultimate for keeping you alive. You also sacrifice Crit buffs, which is a pretty large damage loss or requires a skill slot to replace that buff.

The only adjustment that needs to happen is Speed+Mag+Immov(or crit) potions. Saying they don't have a cost when they've got a large opportunity cost is blatantly false

Minno

Won't matter since race against time with a swift trait is arguably much better than any speed pot (with exception to the immovable speed variant, but that's due to the immovable). Mostly because it frees up your pot use for things like mag/health immovable, tri pot, crit/mag/health, etc.

Stamina would be the only ones that could use the lingering speed pots, but you do lose out on that stam regen.

The pots are fine. The speed is fine. The Lag is not.

Rukzadlithau

Should be adjusted in a way, so that only 3x infused jewelery with „Glyph of Potion Boost“ warrants a 100% uptime after Medicinal Use. This makes Skills/Morphs providing Major Expedition worthwhile again.

Solariken

PickleRick wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

First let every class natively have access to major expedition without having to slot specific weapons, then we can even begin to have this conversation. Speed pots promote build variety and have a trade off in the opportunity cost of using other powerful potions.

It’s funny you say there is 0 cost when they actually have the most obvious cost of all...they are expensive. Speed pots are the number one gold sink in the game for many end game pvpers, and I highly doubt zos is just gonna remove that. If anything, the only change that needs to happen is the introduction of magicka speed immov potions.

You also lose out on other potion options.

Its not as if Vitality+Lingering pots don't exist and work about as well as a defensive ultimate for keeping you alive. You also sacrifice Crit buffs, which is a pretty large damage loss or requires a skill slot to replace that buff.

The only adjustment that needs to happen is Speed+Mag+Immov(or crit) potions. Saying they don't have a cost when they've got a large opportunity cost is blatantly false

Please learn the difference between explicit cost and opportunity cost. What I wrote is blatantly true, you just didn't read. Opportunity cost is not on the same level as explicit cost. You drink a potion and you only gain, nothing is spent.

Now consider whichever type of "cost" you like when comparing sources of Major Expedition. Nobody can say with a straight face that the costs between something like Hasty Retreat or Quick Cloak versus a Speed Pot are even remotely similar in cost.

I expect to see some of the same names showing up to naysay this thread that did the same for 100% uptime on Vitality potions before those were nerfed. Because I guess people will try to protect whatever broken advantage they are currently abusing.

CyrusArya

Royaji wrote: »

Not arguing any other points but... Gold sink makes currency disappear from the game. Since pots are bought from other players and not from NPCs they can not be a goldsink.

Well in my view it does not have disappear from the game to be considered a goldsink, just disappear from accounts so that individual player wealth doesn’t stagnate. Between the mats and actual potions themselves, it keeps the in game economy flowing all around. For PvPers, besides occasionally buying gear and upgrade mats, potions are the number one expenditure.

Royaji

CyrusArya wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

Not arguing any other points but... Gold sink makes currency disappear from the game. Since pots are bought from other players and not from NPCs they can not be a goldsink.

Well in my view it does not have disappear from the game to be considered a goldsink, just disappear from accounts so that individual player wealth doesn’t stagnate. Between the mats and actual potions themselves, it keeps the in game economy flowing all around. For PvPers, besides occasionally buying gear and upgrade mats, potions are the number one expenditure.

I do agree about the gold flow but it's still not a gold sink. Gold sink is a well defined term in MMOs. Since gold in games appears from literal "nothing" (drops from mobs, undaunted plunder and so on) it also has to disappear into "nothing" to prevent massive infaltion. Trade between players does not make gold disappear thus can not be a gold sink.

PickleRick

Solariken wrote: »

PickleRick wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

First let every class natively have access to major expedition without having to slot specific weapons, then we can even begin to have this conversation. Speed pots promote build variety and have a trade off in the opportunity cost of using other powerful potions.

It’s funny you say there is 0 cost when they actually have the most obvious cost of all...they are expensive. Speed pots are the number one gold sink in the game for many end game pvpers, and I highly doubt zos is just gonna remove that. If anything, the only change that needs to happen is the introduction of magicka speed immov potions.

You also lose out on other potion options.

Its not as if Vitality+Lingering pots don't exist and work about as well as a defensive ultimate for keeping you alive. You also sacrifice Crit buffs, which is a pretty large damage loss or requires a skill slot to replace that buff.

The only adjustment that needs to happen is Speed+Mag+Immov(or crit) potions. Saying they don't have a cost when they've got a large opportunity cost is blatantly false

Please learn the difference between explicit cost and opportunity cost. What I wrote is blatantly true, you just didn't read. Opportunity cost is not on the same level as explicit cost. You drink a potion and you only gain, nothing is spent.

Now consider whichever type of "cost" you like when comparing sources of Major Expedition. Nobody can say with a straight face that the costs between something like Hasty Retreat or Quick Cloak versus a Speed Pot are even remotely similar in cost.

I expect to see some of the same names showing up to naysay this thread that did the same for 100% uptime on Vitality potions before those were nerfed. Because I guess people will try to protect whatever broken advantage they are currently abusing.

A cost is a cost, just because you want to argue semantics doesn’t disprove anything that I said. In fact, it really shows you don’t have a solid counter argument. That’s further demonstrated by you lashing out and assuming that I or anyone else needs a crutch, if they nerf speed pots I’ll just run Spell power pots(Vitality+lingering on stam) and slot race against time, which gives higher mobility than a speed pot anyway.

There’s no need to get all aggravated with me for pointing out that your argument is based upon this logical fallacy you’ve created where speed pots have no cost. They in fact do have a monetary and opportunity cost, the second of which is what keeps them balanced.

Since you mention hasty retreat, it has 0 cost, if you’re running a bow already then it rewards you for taking defensive actions on your bow bar at 0 cost. It doesn’t increase dodge roll cost to proc it and it doesn’t reduce effectiveness.

Maybe you should consider that slow moving combat is very boring and will get you zerged down whereas being able to move quickly, reposition, and strike fast allows for engaging alternatives to the fight until a Zerg shows up gameplay we have had for so long. I don’t need a crutch, I just want to have fun engaging fights and have the mobility to disengage zergs and you come in here insulting me lol.

PickleRick

@Solariken wait, I think you’re saying that the cost for Hasty retreat is running a bow. But if you run bow just to get Hasty Retreat passive then we’ve gone over into the land of terrible build decisions. You run bow so you can engage from range, proc glyphs from range, or get the masters bow bonus(or snipe spam or some crazy bow build like @DDuke runs). Hasty retreat is just something you get for free when capitalizing on the things bow offers

Minno

PickleRick wrote: »

@Solariken wait, I think you’re saying that the cost for Hasty retreat is running a bow. But if you run bow just to get Hasty Retreat passive then we’ve gone over into the land of terrible build decisions. You run bow so you can engage from range, proc glyphs from range, or get the masters bow bonus(or snipe spam or some crazy bow build like @DDuke runs). Hasty retreat is just something you get for free when capitalizing on the things bow offers

And when you dodge roll, to bar swap from the non-bow bar to the bow bar to obtain the hastry retreat buff.

Otherwise it is only there to get speed outside of combat so you can save pots or other speed buffs during combat.

idk

I agree with the other posted that via some class skills and weapon skills one can already have full uptime.

Besides, I had thought the speed boost from a pot didn’t last 45 seconds.

Defilted

Speed pots need a nerf becasue you can keep speed up 100%??

Everyone has access to this. This is not class specific, No one person has it over another. This is Alchemy that we all have access to.

You are either playing on a class that has major expedition or you use a pot. There is no need to nerf something we all have access to.

PickleRick

Defilted wrote: »

Speed pots need a nerf becasue you can keep speed up 100%??

Everyone has access to this. This is not class specific, No one person has it over another. This is Alchemy that we all have access to.

You are either playing on a class that has major expedition or you use a pot. There is no need to nerf something we all have access to.

He is(was?) a Magplar main.

Magplar is actually superb in the current meta since it finally has the tools to be mobile. It’s offense works best when you can funnel enemies into a choke and get big time damage off on them without them being able to avoid it because of restrictive LoS and now it can engage in a fight then lure emotionally invested opponents into bad situations where their win probability decreases to almost 0

SodanTok

Defilted wrote: »

Speed pots need a nerf becasue you can keep speed up 100%??

Everyone has access to this. This is not class specific, No one person has it over another. This is Alchemy that we all have access to.

You are either playing on a class that has major expedition or you use a pot. There is no need to nerf something we all have access to.

thats not how balance works, making overpowered tools and giving them to everyone doesnt keep the balance intact when everyone benefits differently. Slow tanky builds with little stamina benefit from speed much more than the opposite of that. Bow backbar (or even frontbar) advantage in having speed passive is nearly negated and most skills that grant this boost are not as valuable.

KingExecration

Buzo wrote: »

Should be adjusted in a way, so that only 3x infused jewelery with „Glyph of Potion Boost“ warrants a 100% uptime after Medicinal Use. This makes Skills/Morphs providing Major Expedition worthwhile again.

I had to read that a few times because I couldn’t believe it. That’s one of the craziest things I’ve seen on here. All of that for speed uptime. I don’t think you guys understand the strength of vitality compared to expedition. Vitality 100% uptime was busted. Unkillable glass cannons build 1v1 if they cycled vigor right. 100% major expedition uptime? Maybe a guy will make it to a tree faster to live .04 seconds longer from a group, but a nerf? Really?

Solariken

KingExecration wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

Should be adjusted in a way, so that only 3x infused jewelery with „Glyph of Potion Boost“ warrants a 100% uptime after Medicinal Use. This makes Skills/Morphs providing Major Expedition worthwhile again.

I had to read that a few times because I couldn’t believe it. That’s one of the craziest things I’ve seen on here. All of that for speed uptime. I don’t think you guys understand the strength of vitality compared to expedition. Vitality 100% uptime was busted. Unkillable glass cannons build 1v1 if they cycled vigor right. 100% major expedition uptime? Maybe a guy will make it to a tree faster to live .04 seconds longer from a group, but a nerf? Really?

An experiment for you @KingExecration and others - play a melee build and fight another melee who is running 2-3x Swift with a speed pot running.

When you're done failing at target whack-a-mole and you understand why 100% uptime on Major Expedition without GCD expenditure is a huge problem you should come back and bring me your insightful clicks.

Rukzadlithau

KingExecration wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

Should be adjusted in a way, so that only 3x infused jewelery with „Glyph of Potion Boost“ warrants a 100% uptime after Medicinal Use. This makes Skills/Morphs providing Major Expedition worthwhile again.

I had to read that a few times because I couldn’t believe it. That’s one of the craziest things I’ve seen on here. All of that for speed uptime. I don’t think you guys understand the strength of vitality compared to expedition. Vitality 100% uptime was busted. Unkillable glass cannons build 1v1 if they cycled vigor right. 100% major expedition uptime? Maybe a guy will make it to a tree faster to live .04 seconds longer from a group, but a nerf? Really?

To be clear, the value we talk about here is 17 seconds (less than @Solariken ‘s proposal) on gold quality trait/enchant.
By 100% uptime I mean when potions are used on cooldown, which is the standart in todays pve/pvp.
I think you don‘t realize how the Major Expedition part on potions is used on almost all pvp stamina builds and the currently craftable Major Expedition potions mainly favour stamina builds. This overshadows Major Expedition gained from actual skills/passives and has yet again direct influence on build/playstyle diversity.

@SodanTok explained it simple and clean, so if you read it again it may not be the „craziest thing you‘ve seen on here“ anymore.

WrathOfInnos

Speed potions are fine. And I’m not sure what you mean by “even with 3 potion effects”, potions do not become weaker when more effects are added, that rule applies only to poisons.

I don’t understand the desire to nerf mobility. There are too many snares in the game, Major Expedition is one counter to this. There have been multiple recent threads about Swift as well. Some people won’t be happy until we’re playing Elder Snails Online, with RP walking speed to get from place to place. Other players are not meant to be stationary Target Dummies, learn how to target them while moving.

NobleX35

No to nerfing major expedition potions. They are fine as is.

Crixus8000

I think speed is fine in pvp. If speed get's nerfed then I think it's only fair to allow for better stand your ground type builds, but atm with the stupidly high damage, and very bad designed ways to deal damage it's basically impossible to have a stand your ground type build without being a full tank. Sure you can feel tanky against pve players but when you meet decent players stacking bleeds that ignore everything or multiple proc sets like calurrions, zaan, getting hit wtih snipes when outnumbered ect then your health will just drop. Solo is already hard enough right now, having to walk away from enemies when being xv1d by proc hordes would make the make even worse.

PickleRick

@Solariken I’ve been playing Stamblade and Stam warden and have no issue fighting people with multiple swift and speed pots.

If you’re struggling to land sweeps, ranged Magplar is actually pretty strong

Nevasca

CyrusArya wrote: »

First let every class natively have access to major expedition without having to slot specific weapons, then we can even begin to have this conversation. Speed pots promote build variety and have a trade off in the opportunity cost of using other powerful potions.

It’s funny you say there is 0 cost when they actually have the most obvious cost of all...they are expensive. Speed pots are the number one gold sink in the game for many end game pvpers, and I highly doubt zos is just gonna remove that. If anything, the only change that needs to happen is the introduction of magicka speed immov potions.

What would you prefer?

a) Waste a skill slot to have Major Expedition for a few seconds, while also adding another buff for you to track and keep up.

b) Having permanent Major Expedition by using pots on CD, with no drawbacks. The same pots will also restore your stamina and give you CC immunity. Best of all worlds for Stamina builds.

No, it's not build variety for Stamboys. At this point Speed pots are so powerful, that not using them is gimping yourself. You could argue that builds that use bow don't need it, but then you need to keep wasting stamina roll dodging to keep it up and etc, it's much easier to just use speed pots and save your stamina. Major Expedition is a very powerful buff, it's one of the most powerful buffs in the game for PvP because of how easy it is to have access permanently to it.

It's not even comparable. Also, your AP rewards can sustain your pots costs, so no, not even gold is an argument.

Crixus8000

Solariken wrote: »

KingExecration wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

Should be adjusted in a way, so that only 3x infused jewelery with „Glyph of Potion Boost“ warrants a 100% uptime after Medicinal Use. This makes Skills/Morphs providing Major Expedition worthwhile again.

I had to read that a few times because I couldn’t believe it. That’s one of the craziest things I’ve seen on here. All of that for speed uptime. I don’t think you guys understand the strength of vitality compared to expedition. Vitality 100% uptime was busted. Unkillable glass cannons build 1v1 if they cycled vigor right. 100% major expedition uptime? Maybe a guy will make it to a tree faster to live .04 seconds longer from a group, but a nerf? Really?

An experiment for you @KingExecration and others - play a melee build and fight another melee who is running 2-3x Swift with a speed pot running.

When you're done failing at target whack-a-mole and you understand why 100% uptime on Major Expedition without GCD expenditure is a huge problem you should come back and bring me your insightful clicks.

Yes I have met some people who stack speed, with 3 swift and I can't even land a dizzy when they just running through me every second. Very annoying to fight since I can't even hit them. But this isn't even an issue with speed imo, it's how skills work combined with lag.

But, that is very rare, just major expedition alone is fine, even with some extra speed.

Also I have tried without major expedition and guess what, I then couldn't land a dizzy on anyone, I was so slow I could't avoid any attacks, land any attacks or escape anything. Major expedition is needed. If it didn't have a 100% uptime then whenever it ended I would just be useless.

leepalmer95

Solariken wrote: »

KingExecration wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

Should be adjusted in a way, so that only 3x infused jewelery with „Glyph of Potion Boost“ warrants a 100% uptime after Medicinal Use. This makes Skills/Morphs providing Major Expedition worthwhile again.

I had to read that a few times because I couldn’t believe it. That’s one of the craziest things I’ve seen on here. All of that for speed uptime. I don’t think you guys understand the strength of vitality compared to expedition. Vitality 100% uptime was busted. Unkillable glass cannons build 1v1 if they cycled vigor right. 100% major expedition uptime? Maybe a guy will make it to a tree faster to live .04 seconds longer from a group, but a nerf? Really?

An experiment for you @KingExecration and others - play a melee build and fight another melee who is running 2-3x Swift with a speed pot running.

When you're done failing at target whack-a-mole and you understand why 100% uptime on Major Expedition without GCD expenditure is a huge problem you should come back and bring me your insightful clicks.

What would that achieve? Mobility as always been important. Its like dueling when 1 person has snare immunity and 1 doesn't. If people choose not to run it it's on them.

If 1 person is using a speed pot why can't the other?

it's the swift that'll make a difference.

Also there is a big tradeoff on using speed pots, there are other strong pots in the game

Tri pots, heal is strong and useful, then you get the extra 20% resource regen which is important on builds who use their off stat a lot/

Lingering/ vitality pots are very strong.

etc..

Mobility is the only thing that lets me actually have a chance of not getting zerged down. Can you not?

Rikumaru

Major exp isn't really the strongest buff at all, but I agree it shouldn't have a 100% uptime. Should be more like 60-70% uptime instead. The major exp skills should also be buffed (Major exp duration) so people actually slot and use them instead of running speed pots.

PickleRick

Rikumaru wrote: »

Major exp isn't really the strongest buff at all, but I agree it shouldn't have a 100% uptime. Should be more like 60-70% uptime instead. The major exp skills should also be buffed (Major exp duration) so people actually slot and use them instead of running speed pots.

It’s not even top 3 strongest.

KingExecration

Fair enough but the guys running 3 swift and the speed pots dont have the damage to burst me back, they're like tanks so I ignore them. And most of them is gonna be running fury expecting to get pounded on. I still never wouldve believed speed pots warrants a nerf. I'd advocate for a swift readjustment honestly. They are already trading a lot from not using tri pots because the heal and magicka sustain is huge on a lot of builds.

code65536

Only poisons have diminishing duration if you stack effects. That has never been a feature of potions. I have no idea why you would even bring that up--ignorance of game mechanics?

Beamer_Miasma

code65536 wrote: »

Only poisons have diminishing duration if you stack effects. That has never been a feature of potions. I have no idea why you would even bring that up--ignorance of game mechanics?

Namira's Rot + Blessed Thistle = 47.6 seconds
Namira's Rot + Blessed Thistle + Scrib Jelly = 52.8 seconds

It's the same with tri-stat pots, Lady's Smock + Columbine + Mountain Flower or Dragonthorn + Columbine + Bugloss gives 47.6 seconds Maj Fortitude whereas Mountain Flower + Columbine + Bugloss gives 52.8.

Mentioned times are assuming you have Medicinal Use 3/3. Been that way for as long as I've been brewing potions (around a year or so).