What makes incap OP?

mr_wazzabi

Irylia wrote: »

I just know that when im fighting outnumbered and a majority of new or worse players are on a nb, it’s the defile that *** me. Just hearing *schwing schwing* of the incap blades and then they don’t do anything after that.also the same class to spam snipe. Two of the most infuriating sources of defile.

Defile just needs to be looked at and moved to more appropriate abilities like nova and kept on shackle. Make large stationary ults play a purpose for major defile and give spammable skills minor defile.

Duroks should be the defensive version of crest. And befoul shouldn’t ramp up so easily for so few points. Or at least be in the blue tree.

Defile is a nb's only shot at taking down templars. But templars can purge it, so templars still have a natural advantage vs nb. You need to think of the big picture.

Kadoin

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I just know that when im fighting outnumbered and a majority of new or worse players are on a nb, it’s the defile that *** me. Just hearing *schwing schwing* of the incap blades and then they don’t do anything after that.also the same class to spam snipe. Two of the most infuriating sources of defile.

Defile just needs to be looked at and moved to more appropriate abilities like nova and kept on shackle. Make large stationary ults play a purpose for major defile and give spammable skills minor defile.

Duroks should be the defensive version of crest. And befoul shouldn’t ramp up so easily for so few points. Or at least be in the blue tree.

Defile is a nb's only shot at taking down templars. But templars can purge it, so templars still have a natural advantage vs nb. You need to think of the big picture.

This might be the funniest thing I have ever read on the forums. No one has a natural advantage over an NB, especially a cloaked one, not even another NB.

Amdar_Godkiller

The cost

I have no problem with the stun, and am really surprised that its leading the way. I'd rank the issues in this order

1. The Cost - Costs next to nothing in a class where ultimate generation is stupidly easy, so a good NB only has to have enough survivability to be able to make it to their next incap.

It should cost probably 175 Ultimate at least for everything it does.

2. Major Defile - I can CC break from it and recover, but if my healing has also been cut in half, after a stun, that hits big, that's when counterplay becomes an issue.

3. The damage - I ain't never had a dawnbreaker nor a meteor do to me in 2 seconds what Incap does with the initial hit. It's on par with dragon leap in terms of damage, and then it does a lot more as well in terms of utility, and for much cheaper.

4. The damage buff - This is what makes the skill laughably OP, but if it hit for 3K, didn't defile, and wasn't practically a spammable, I wouldn't really care. Nobody's complaining about reaper's mark or the DK standard.

5. The stun - All good PVP ultimates are CCs. All of them are sometimes hard to break free from. No issue here.

Amdar_Godkiller

The cost

thankyourat wrote: »

It's the stun. If you think about it the only difference between incap and soul harvest is the stun. Most people think incap is broken and soul harvest is fine, and the stun is the only difference between those two abilities

That's because Soul Harvest is also too OP. LOL

Amdar_Godkiller

The cost

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Turn Major Defile into Minor Defile and be done with it. The stun change won't change anything of importance.

That would make it more OP because Minor defile is super rare in this game.

Amdar_Godkiller

The cost

Maryal wrote: »

Why do people not block Incapacitating Strike?

[] Not enough experience in the game to know when they should block
[] Not knowing it can be blocked
[] Not having enough stamina to block
[] Not wanting to survive Incapacitating Strike (for people who prefer following the crowd)

[] Because they are stuck in their ballista, stunned by the surprise attack ability that you did while cloaked, and are already trying to break free.

mr_wazzabi

Kadoin wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I just know that when im fighting outnumbered and a majority of new or worse players are on a nb, it’s the defile that *** me. Just hearing *schwing schwing* of the incap blades and then they don’t do anything after that.also the same class to spam snipe. Two of the most infuriating sources of defile.

Defile just needs to be looked at and moved to more appropriate abilities like nova and kept on shackle. Make large stationary ults play a purpose for major defile and give spammable skills minor defile.

Duroks should be the defensive version of crest. And befoul shouldn’t ramp up so easily for so few points. Or at least be in the blue tree.

Defile is a nb's only shot at taking down templars. But templars can purge it, so templars still have a natural advantage vs nb. You need to think of the big picture.

This might be the funniest thing I have ever read on the forums. No one has a natural advantage over an NB, especially a cloaked one, not even another NB.

Play a nb and try to gank a heavy armour sword and board magicka templar with incap. You won't kill him unless he's on siege. When you stun him, once he breaks free, he'll dodge roll, purifying ritual to cleanse major defile away, then breath of life. 100% full health. Now the nb is screwed

Asardes

Stun

The stun was unbalanced since it worked even when blocking and the ability is hard to see coming so it can't be easily dodged. For a magicka char especially it's hard to break free and dodging isn't much cheaper. The change they are making is an interesting one though I'm waiting to see what happens when it goes live.

Zer0oo

the whole package makes the skills so good:

1. makes high damage it is good as opener
2. it CCs the target so you can easy land your next attack and nb have one of the hardest hitting skills
3. it gives 20% more damage makes it even harder for the target to recover and allows extrem high burst
4. to make it even harder to recover you also getting defiled
5. if you fail this combo just wait a little and repeat

Bonus points for buggy cc, sliding on the floor and the combat clue is not synchrone with damage, animation and debuff. (Basically you have to dodge before you hear the sound and even then there is a chance to get the debuff)

TheYKcid

Major defile

Stamblade is my most played PvP toon and while I agree that incap really needs a nerf, I just wish it had been something other than the stun.

The 20% damage amp is out of the question, since deleting it would affect PvE immensely. And one can't really complain about the upfront damage when it only scales 5.4% higher than a DBoS.

That really just leaves the stun, cost, and defile.

I feel like having a stun integrated into a burst combo is too crucial to dispense. NB being the only class without layered burst, you rely on landing the incap > bow sequentially to secure a kill on a good opponent. Even on live, targets with good reflexes and/or ping can break the incap and roll before the bow connects (assuming CC mechanics don't glitch-out, of course). Adding a full extra GCD to the combo to accommodate fear effectively doubles the response window for the target to mitigate it.

For sure in some current cases I'd fear before incap anyway, such as versus highly rolling/blocking targets to open up their defenses. But as far as possible, letting incap apply its CC makes for the most reliable kills.

The alternatives?

Taking away the defile instead would force NBs to explore different build options (and therefore make sacrifices) to re-obtain it, such as S&B or a charged diseased glyph, which promotes build diversity. On the other hand, increasing the cost to ~120-ish would make incap more equitable to DBoS, and give the user a more compelling choice between single-target lethality vs. group utility.

Taking away the stun makes NB less OP, for sure, but still equally one-dimensional, offensively. It's just incap>fear>bow (or any order of the 3) instead of incap>bow.

TheYKcid

Major defile

Asardes wrote: »

The stun was unbalanced since it worked even when blocking...

This is objectively false.

On your client's side, it looks like incap hit you while block was up, but that's purely because incap has a very long animation when not cancelled. Server-side, incap hit you the moment your opponents button-press was registered, as with all instant-cast abilities.

Pressing block in the middle of the incap animation doesn't work because the server has already registered you as being hit (and CC'd) at that point. Any asynchrony is purely visual on your client's end.

Incap is blockable, period.

@Asardes

Kadoin

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I just know that when im fighting outnumbered and a majority of new or worse players are on a nb, it’s the defile that *** me. Just hearing *schwing schwing* of the incap blades and then they don’t do anything after that.also the same class to spam snipe. Two of the most infuriating sources of defile.

Defile just needs to be looked at and moved to more appropriate abilities like nova and kept on shackle. Make large stationary ults play a purpose for major defile and give spammable skills minor defile.

Duroks should be the defensive version of crest. And befoul shouldn’t ramp up so easily for so few points. Or at least be in the blue tree.

Defile is a nb's only shot at taking down templars. But templars can purge it, so templars still have a natural advantage vs nb. You need to think of the big picture.

This might be the funniest thing I have ever read on the forums. No one has a natural advantage over an NB, especially a cloaked one, not even another NB.

Play a nb and try to gank a heavy armour sword and board magicka templar with incap. You won't kill him unless he's on siege. When you stun him, once he breaks free, he'll dodge roll, purifying ritual to cleanse major defile away, then breath of life. 100% full health. Now the nb is screwed

How does one spec imply that it's a "natural advantage" over anyone else? Any tank build could pull of the same exact feat with or without purifying ritual and without BoL, otherwise they aren't a tank at all. "Now the NB is screwed" because what? They couldn't kill a tank alone and don't want to cloak and leave OR have to actually fight instead of relying on massive burst damage to kill people in seconds?

The only one with the advantage is and will always be the NB because they are deciding when to fight and whether or not to. There is nothing in this game that comes close to the advantage of cloak and nothing that gives a "natural advantage" over an NB. Nothing.

As for "you won't kill him unless he's on siege" that sounds like a skill problem with the NB, considering they can apparently kill him after all.

Gprime31

Other: crybaby players!

IZZEFlameLash

The 20% dmg buff

No other skills offer this much increased damage taken. 20% increase is just huge on top of Major Defile. So you just cannot recover properly afterwards unless the NB misses all the timings in the world.

IZZEFlameLash

The 20% dmg buff

Maryal wrote: »

Why do people not block Incapacitating Strike?

[] Not enough experience in the game to know when they should block
[] Not knowing it can be blocked
[] Not having enough stamina to block
[] Not wanting to survive Incapacitating Strike (for people who prefer following the crowd)

Or here comes the right answer: no one knows when it is coming when it comes from stealth.

kadar

Irylia wrote: »

Lol knew all the nightblades would come in.
“ItS nOt Op”

I'll go make a run cage thread so that you can come in with the clutch "it's not OP" and get lots of agrees

In all seriousness I think the planned change is a good move. A single target ult like incap could easily get "toned down" into the garbage. DBoS already reigns supreme on every class for group play and most for solo/small scale. Make the ability take more finesse to use so that skilled players can achieve the same level of performance if offers now, and 6k wpn dmg gank-potatoes don't get more than they should be.

*edited for actual input

mr_wazzabi

Kadoin wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I just know that when im fighting outnumbered and a majority of new or worse players are on a nb, it’s the defile that *** me. Just hearing *schwing schwing* of the incap blades and then they don’t do anything after that.also the same class to spam snipe. Two of the most infuriating sources of defile.

Defile just needs to be looked at and moved to more appropriate abilities like nova and kept on shackle. Make large stationary ults play a purpose for major defile and give spammable skills minor defile.

Duroks should be the defensive version of crest. And befoul shouldn’t ramp up so easily for so few points. Or at least be in the blue tree.

Defile is a nb's only shot at taking down templars. But templars can purge it, so templars still have a natural advantage vs nb. You need to think of the big picture.

This might be the funniest thing I have ever read on the forums. No one has a natural advantage over an NB, especially a cloaked one, not even another NB.

Play a nb and try to gank a heavy armour sword and board magicka templar with incap. You won't kill him unless he's on siege. When you stun him, once he breaks free, he'll dodge roll, purifying ritual to cleanse major defile away, then breath of life. 100% full health. Now the nb is screwed

How does one spec imply that it's a "natural advantage" over anyone else? Any tank build could pull of the same exact feat with or without purifying ritual and without BoL, otherwise they aren't a tank at all. "Now the NB is screwed" because what? They couldn't kill a tank alone and don't want to cloak and leave OR have to actually fight instead of relying on massive burst damage to kill people in seconds?

The only one with the advantage is and will always be the NB because they are deciding when to fight and whether or not to. There is nothing in this game that comes close to the advantage of cloak and nothing that gives a "natural advantage" over an NB. Nothing.

As for "you won't kill him unless he's on siege" that sounds like a skill problem with the NB, considering they can apparently kill him after all.

Not a tank. A healer or dps in heavy armour with snb. But you know what? A sorc could kill him. With the meteor, curse, rune cage, fury cheese combo.

ImNotKevinBacon

Its not OP, you can miss an Incap all the time. Its essential to the NB burst in the way that it works.

IZZEFlameLash

The 20% dmg buff

ImNotKevinBacon wrote: »

Its not OP, you can miss an Incap all the time. Its essential to the NB burst in the way that it works.

If you miss your Incap all the time, you got some issues to work on.

ImNotKevinBacon

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

ImNotKevinBacon wrote: »

Its not OP, you can miss an Incap all the time. Its essential to the NB burst in the way that it works.

If you miss your Incap all the time, you got some issues to work on.

Im not saying I do, im saying its Possible.

Joy_Division

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I just know that when im fighting outnumbered and a majority of new or worse players are on a nb, it’s the defile that *** me. Just hearing *schwing schwing* of the incap blades and then they don’t do anything after that.also the same class to spam snipe. Two of the most infuriating sources of defile.

Defile just needs to be looked at and moved to more appropriate abilities like nova and kept on shackle. Make large stationary ults play a purpose for major defile and give spammable skills minor defile.

Duroks should be the defensive version of crest. And befoul shouldn’t ramp up so easily for so few points. Or at least be in the blue tree.

Defile is a nb's only shot at taking down templars. But templars can purge it, so templars still have a natural advantage vs nb. You need to think of the big picture.

This might be the funniest thing I have ever read on the forums. No one has a natural advantage over an NB, especially a cloaked one, not even another NB.

Play a nb and try to gank a heavy armour sword and board magicka templar with incap. You won't kill him unless he's on siege. When you stun him, once he breaks free, he'll dodge roll, purifying ritual to cleanse major defile away, then breath of life. 100% full health. Now the nb is screwed

You should put a band-aid on where the templar touched you.

Irylia

Major defile

The_Outsider wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Lol knew all the nightblades would come in.
“ItS nOt Op”

I'll go make a run cage thread so that you can come in with the clutch "it's not OP" and get lots of agrees

In all seriousness I think the planned change is a good move. A single target ult like incap could easily get "toned down" into the garbage. DBoS already reigns supreme on every class for group play and most for solo/small scale. Make the ability take more finesse to use so that skilled players can achieve the same level of performance if offers now, and 6k wpn dmg gank-potatoes don't get more than they should be.

*edited for actual input

You can check my comment history on rune cage posts. The skill is op and makes the class extremely easy to play. Rinse repeat rc meteor combo because you don’t know how to kill without it, is essentially every sorc now days.

I want old frag stun + dmg

JobooAGS

Stun

Joshlenoir wrote: »

Lots of people misunderstanding PvP mechanics in this thread

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

If it's really op, why can templars survive my ganks by healing through major defile to full health?

Op means nobody survives.

Nobody survives curse + meteor + rune cage + fury, hence why sorcs are op

OP means overpowered, or overperforming. Sloads is both overpowered and overperforming but the vast majority of people getting carried by it won't kill me on their own merits. Templars don't die to your incaps because most of them are in heavy armor, have shields, or use sword and board, or all three. Also they can cleanse all of the incap debuffs(20% DMG, defile, etc.) with one cast of ritual. I'm honestly very surprised at how you missed that.

Maryal wrote: »

Why do people not block Incapacitating Strike?

[] Not enough experience in the game to know when they should block
[] Not knowing it can be blocked
[] Not having enough stamina to block
[] Not wanting to survive Incapacitating Strike (for people who prefer following the crowd)

"Just block it" easy thing to say when you're never in a position where you're the one getting ganked, and never have to fight a nightblade, or multiple at once.

"Not enough experience", I can guarantee the majority of the people voting on this thread have a deeper more nuanced understanding of PvP / nightblade mechanics than you do and play multiple classes, so they can actually see things from different perspectives.

And the rest of your options are just irrelevant.
Incap is OP because it's the lowest cost ultimate in the game with the highest damage output, damage potential, and CC. it doesn't matter if it's single target. The nerfs to incap will only greatly negatively affect gankers or brand new nightblades. Based on what you've been saying it seems like you fall under one of those categories.
It's easy to say something isn't OP when it's on the only class you play and you're rarely on the receiving end of it. All classes have had appropriate changes / nerfs and it's time nightblades do as well. If you think a 20% damage buff, on top of a 30%+ defile (CP increases this), on top of a CC while only costing 75 ultimate isn't overpowered, on a class that gets 20 ultimate simply for drinking a potion, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe try to play other classes and fight nightblades alone and see what the difference is.

People always reference the 20 ult on potion, but it comes out to be about .45 ult a second on cooldown, which is right in line with other classes. (Warden Animal companions 4 ult every 8 seconds, DK earthern heart 3 ult every 6 seconds, Templar dawns wrath 3 ult every 6 seconds, sorc has a huge ult cost reduction) And no, the 2 ult every 4 seconds from siphoning is irrelevant, what pvp stamblade build uses a siphoning ability every 4 seconds? Though for magblade you may have a point. The nerf on incap was needed, though the cc as a whole can go too.

Zelos

Stun

Irylia wrote: »

Lol knew all the nightblades would come in.
“ItS nOt Op”

Lol it's not any different then reverb, reverb deals damage a 10 second defile and stuns, Incap is also a ultimate it should have something unique its definitely powerful as a ult should be. Lacks team support, single target, can be dodged, stun can be broken instantly( unlike some other skills like well let's say.... rune cage) only thing that is unique about it is the 20% uncategorized damage buff.

kadar

Irylia wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

Lol knew all the nightblades would come in.
“ItS nOt Op”

I'll go make a run cage thread so that you can come in with the clutch "it's not OP" and get lots of agrees

In all seriousness I think the planned change is a good move. A single target ult like incap could easily get "toned down" into the garbage. DBoS already reigns supreme on every class for group play and most for solo/small scale. Make the ability take more finesse to use so that skilled players can achieve the same level of performance if offers now, and 6k wpn dmg gank-potatoes don't get more than they should be.

*edited for actual input

You can check my comment history on rune cage posts. The skill is op and makes the class extremely easy to play. Rinse repeat rc meteor combo because you don’t know how to kill without it, is essentially every sorc now days.

I want old frag stun + dmg

Someone else then lol. Someone who enjoys afk AP harvesting with RC.

You're right tho. Took my mSorc to Cyro just to get tier 1 rewards. He was wearing Juli/Elegant. 100k AP in an hour just walking around, Meteor->RC->Execute. And I'm bad at mSorc.

I'm hopeful the stun change on Incap will make it harder for baddies to 100-0 someone. It could even change to only stun under 50% health in addition to being lower than the opponent.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Stun

LegendaryMage wrote: »

The 20% damage buff is OP, stun + defile + good initial damage is all fine for a dodgeable single target ulty at that cost.

But once you factor in the additional damage modifier it provides, then it's a bit too much. Usually a relentless proc right after incap, and if it crits, gg hf. I'd be totally fine if it always stunned but the 20% damage bonus was removed.

True @LegendaryMage but you cant mess with that without the pve nb crying removing the stun is the best middle way to adjust it a bit without nerfing stamblade in Pve(where the stun really isnt needed and tbh i personally prefer the other morph to have a higher WM uptime for my group)

Sky_WK

The 20% dmg buff

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

I don't think Incapacitating Strike over performs.

If a person wants to use a dodgeable, telegraphed ultimate with the potential to gain a stun, defile, and damage boost against one target and give up team assistance, multi-target, ultimate with less counters, defensive ultimate, or healing ultimate, then they should go for it. That is exactly the point of choosing one ultimate over another. Sacrifice [x] to gain [y].

I would do some low things to have an ultimate as good as incap on any other class. For the low cost of 75 ultimate lol.

Sky_WK

The 20% dmg buff

Daus wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

LegendaryMage wrote: »

The 20% damage buff is OP, stun + defile + good initial damage is all fine for a dodgeable single target ulty at that cost.

But once you factor in the additional damage modifier it provides, then it's a bit too much. Usually a relentless proc right after incap, and if it crits, gg hf. I'd be totally fine if it always stunned but the 20% damage bonus was removed.

This would totally kill Incap as a viable PvE ultimate, because the 20% damage boost is literally the only thing that matters. The damage is paltry and the stun and defile are irrelevant.

Removing the 20% damage bonus is an absolutely awful idea.

To each their own. I find the damage bonus ridiculously OP in PVP when paired with defile and stun.

It really isn't. Against a target dummy if you use Incap followed by 5 LA weaved surprise attacks then compare that to DBoS followed by 5 LA weaved surprise attacks you'll see that the DoT applied provides more damage than the extra 20% via Incap. For me it Out-DPS Incap by 1.4k DPS, and this is with 81 into Master-at-Arms, and 0 into Thaurmaturge. In a non-CP environment, the DoT from Dawnbreaker would be even more powerful, and against a vampire or WW even more so.

Did you just bring a target dummy into this? Target dummies are not an accurate representation of cyrodiil.

whsprwind

As a MagDK i don't think Incap is *that* OP.

Leap is probably a better ult but nobody seems to complain about it (lucky for me). AOE burst damage and stun with huge damage shield. Also low cost.
Turns the fight all the time.

I don't know a DK that doesn't run leap in pvp.

Juhasow

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Irylia wrote: »

I just know that when im fighting outnumbered and a majority of new or worse players are on a nb, it’s the defile that *** me. Just hearing *schwing schwing* of the incap blades and then they don’t do anything after that.also the same class to spam snipe. Two of the most infuriating sources of defile.

Defile just needs to be looked at and moved to more appropriate abilities like nova and kept on shackle. Make large stationary ults play a purpose for major defile and give spammable skills minor defile.

Duroks should be the defensive version of crest. And befoul shouldn’t ramp up so easily for so few points. Or at least be in the blue tree.

Defile is a nb's only shot at taking down templars. But templars can purge it, so templars still have a natural advantage vs nb. You need to think of the big picture.

This might be the funniest thing I have ever read on the forums. No one has a natural advantage over an NB, especially a cloaked one, not even another NB.

Play a nb and try to gank a heavy armour sword and board magicka templar with incap. You won't kill him unless he's on siege. When you stun him, once he breaks free, he'll dodge roll, purifying ritual to cleanse major defile away, then breath of life. 100% full health. Now the nb is screwed

Will that templar destroy You easily though ? Because if not then You're complaining that it's unfair You cant instantly destroy everyone as nightblade and answer fot that is GET REAL.