Selling crowns for gold is a SCAM and RIPOFF!

Peekachu99

200g/c minimum or tell them to fly a kite. Price is going up, too, not down.

Turelus

@swippy @S1ipperyJim these are the quotes you're looking for.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

heaven13 wrote: »

But the question is...is a Crown Store item considered an in-game item (since it is found in-game) or a out-of-game since it's purchased with crowns ie real money? That seems to be where all the confusion is.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

A Crown Store item is considered an in-game item.

Beardimus

Is this thread for real?

Someone legit moaning about the cosy of buying gold.

Damn I've seen it all now. This tops the mindless Nerf sorc threads

S1ipperyJim

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

You have no idea what P2W is. There is no competitive advantage attatched to anything in the the Crown Store. Just saying that something is P2W doesn't make it so.

Friend, 'you don't know what P2W means' is the standard response from people like you whenever the term P2W is mentioned. Let me assure you, I have been playing games for over 30 years and I know EXACTLY what P2W means, both from first hand experience, observation, and familiarity with the actual origins and definitions of P2W. So don't come on her and patronise me that I don't know what P2W means, OK?

One definition will suffice:

"Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary

The crown store was supposedly only for items that were for 'cosmetic and convenience' purposes. Now that you can pay real cash for crowns to launder for gold you can now buy any item in the game available for trade, including items 99.9 percent of persons playing the game would never see, such as aetheric ciphers, as well as other valuable items like legendary upgrade items, rare BoE weapons, all of which have a real in game advantage over other players, whether through performance r XP gain, versus other players who have to grind months or years to get small quantities of these (also known as 'playing the game as intended') or may never get access to them at all. Never mind the flow on effect this has on other factors such as the regular market eg guild trading in game.

It is assuredly P2W.

Ask yourself this - would you be OK with ZOS putting everything in the game into a cash shop for sale for real money, such as specific BoE weapons sets, upgrade items, achievement skins, etc? I mean, they have already drifted a fair way down that path already. Because it happens over a long time and small increments people gradually get comfortable with it.

There is literally no material difference between buying gold for cash from gold traders and trading crowns for gold except ZOS makes all the profit.

Runs

Colecovision wrote: »

How much gold is a mundus stone?

I've paid as low as 640k per and as high as 800k per mundus. I have all got all 13 this way through 4 different people. 3 of whom were complete strangers I met in a discord group, the 4th being an in game friend.

Beardimus

Turelus wrote: »

@swippy @S1ipperyJim these are the quotes you're looking for.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To clarify, trading an in-game item for other in-game items is allowed; trading in-game items for real-world money or other out-of-game items is strictly prohibited.

heaven13 wrote: »

But the question is...is a Crown Store item considered an in-game item (since it is found in-game) or a out-of-game since it's purchased with crowns ie real money? That seems to be where all the confusion is.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

A Crown Store item is considered an in-game item.

How miserable. I missed this.

Well there goes the neighbourhood.

What on earth....

Turelus

@S1ipperyJim if your belief is the one from urban dictionary, then ESO was P2W since launch and nothing has changed by allowing players to trade Crown Store items for gold.

"Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary

Imperial Race, Rings of Mara, XP Scrolls, Research Scrolls, Horse Riding Lessons, Warden, Jewellery Crafting.
All of the above grant situational or grind skipping bonuses for real life money.

Runs

The other thing about this is people have been buying gold with crowns for almost 2 years now. Since they introduced crown store exclusive motifs people have been buying mimic stones making gear deconstructing it then selling the style items. Yes, that required a bit of work... but several people have been doing it.

S1ipperyJim

Turelus wrote: »

@S1ipperyJim if your belief is the one from urban dictionary, then ESO was P2W since launch and nothing has changed by allowing players to trade Crown Store items for gold.

"Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary

Imperial Race, Rings of Mara, XP Scrolls, Research Scrolls, Horse Riding Lessons, Warden, Jewellery Crafting.
All of the above grant situational or grind skipping bonuses for real life money.

Do those things match the broadly accepted, objective definition of P2W? Then they are P2W. Those are the facts based on the accepted definition - not my 'belief', a word you used which implies subjectivity. Thanks for pointing it out.

I think you'll find people raised alarmed over these things for the same reason when they came out. As I said, ZOS have been going down this path for years, it is just getting even more blatant now they allow players to sell crowns for gold.

Sparr0w

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Selling Crowns for Gold makes the game P2W.

It's tragic that people like the OP want to come on the official forums and whine about not receiving enough in game gold for your crowns.

How? The only thing you get with crowns that you can't get with gold are houses, mundus, costumes, mounts and other cosmetics none of which will help you 'win' at the game.

Plus you don't need gold to have a BiS character, you can literally fully kit out a character with 0 gold in a week (if you need transmute crystals) otherwise shorter.

Edit: Also Urban dictionary isn't a reliable source of information...
Here's a better definition of P2W:

"P2W = Buying something with real money that IS NOT obtainable in game that offers a significant power advantage over others. Pay to Progress Faster is not Pay to win, It's not that simple."

Turelus

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

S1ipperyJim if your belief is the one from urban dictionary, then ESO was P2W since launch and nothing has changed by allowing players to trade Crown Store items for gold.

"Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary

Imperial Race, Rings of Mara, XP Scrolls, Research Scrolls, Horse Riding Lessons, Warden, Jewellery Crafting.
All of the above grant situational or grind skipping bonuses for real life money.

Do those things match the broadly accepted, objective definition of P2W? Then they are P2W. Those are the facts based on the accepted definition - not my 'belief', a word you used which implies subjectivity. Thanks for pointing it out.

I think you'll find people raised alarmed over these things for the same reason when they came out. As I said, ZOS have been going down this path for years, it is just getting even more blatant now they allow players to sell crowns for gold.

If that's the definition or broad definition used then yes, that's P2W and ESO has been P2W since launch.

However most people are accepting that P2W isn't in effect until something which is stronger/unobtainable via normal means is sold. Things like weapons, armour, buff potions etc.

World of Tanks and the gold ammo which did more damage than base ammo but was only available for real money is a good example of this.

idrankyourbeer

havent looked into the new gifting system yet, not sure how it all works. can you actually gift crowns, im assuming which is how people are selling crowns for gold? and wouldnt there be a scam factor involved?

is this even within the ToS?

S1ipperyJim

Turelus wrote: »

most people are accepting that P2W isn't in effect until something which is stronger/unobtainable via normal means is sold

"Most people"?

Really? You base this on what? Some sort of survey?

S1ipperyJim

Sparr0w wrote: »

Edit: Also Urban dictionary isn't a reliable source of information...
Here's a better definition of P2W:

"P2W = Buying something with real money that IS NOT obtainable in game that offers a significant power advantage over others. Pay to Progress Faster is not Pay to win, It's not that simple."

After posting a comment clearly showing you didn't understand the basic issue we're discussing here, you say the Urban Dictionary is not a reliable source of information, then you quote as gospel some rando forum post from a junior member on the fortnite forums as if he was an authority! Did you even read the replies he got after that comment?!

Turelus

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

most people are accepting that P2W isn't in effect until something which is stronger/unobtainable via normal means is sold

"Most people"?

Really? You base this on what? Some sort of survey?

The fact the game has millions of players and not millions of posts about how it's P2W would be my rational on that.

Start a poll asking if you think ESO is P2W and using the forums as your sample size, I am pretty sure No would come out as the winner.

If you think the game is P2W and it's effecting your ability to play it then your never going to have fun here, because things are not going to change.

Sparr0w

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Edit: Also Urban dictionary isn't a reliable source of information...
Here's a better definition of P2W:

"P2W = Buying something with real money that IS NOT obtainable in game that offers a significant power advantage over others. Pay to Progress Faster is not Pay to win, It's not that simple."

After posting a comment clearly showing you didn't understand the basic issue we're discussing here, you say the Urban Dictionary is not a reliable source of information, then you quote as gospel some rando forum post from a junior member on the fortnite forums as if he was an authority! Did you even read the replies he got after that comment?!

Nah just a quick google search for a quote with similar reliability that matched my views, similar to your quote

EDIT: actually most of the replies agreed, just stated that it's a bit deeper, e.g. saving your self "literally 10 years".
"P2W is by definition the gain of power in-game through means of spending real life currency, which cannot be obtained otherwise."

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

There are so many kids in-game (yea, that's a violation of the ToS) that do nothing in their life but spending the day in ESO and on adult sites (again violating several laws). The money comes from their dad so it's an easy way to convert it into gold.

Those are the same selling Skyreach runs for like 1 or 2k. You must have really a lot of free time and zero social life.

Anyway, is this the strategy ZOS planned to reduce bots? Essentially you can now legitimately buy in-game gold for real money. Why not offering it directly, anyway.

lakaisl

I always thought selling Crowns for gold was prohibited?

I have more then enough Crowns and i'm always broke in the gold department.

Sparr0w

lakaisl wrote: »

I always thought selling Crowns for gold was prohibited?

I have more then enough Crowns and i'm always broke in the gold department.

Crowns for gold yes, crown store items no.

Sparr0w

OP charge what you want, same with trading items for gold. It's up to the buyer to take it, negotiate or look elsewhere.

lakaisl

Sparr0w wrote: »

lakaisl wrote: »

I always thought selling Crowns for gold was prohibited?

I have more then enough Crowns and i'm always broke in the gold department.

Crowns for gold yes, crown store items no.

Ah, you mean with the 'Gifting' system?

kargen27

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

most people are accepting that P2W isn't in effect until something which is stronger/unobtainable via normal means is sold

"Most people"?

Really? You base this on what? Some sort of survey?

Not a survey but read any thread on the topic in these forums and it is really one sided towards this definition being correct and yours being wrong.

Getting back to the OP some have mentioned you have to consider some people have a larger expendable income real world and less in game time. Also some people that have plenty of expendable income and plenty of game time. I sometimes help a guild that is almost exclusively retired people by filling in when they can't get a trial group together. Some of them invested really well and don't mind spending a lot of money in the game. I don't know if they are selling crowns for gold or not but you need to be aware that there are quite a few players out there that easily could.

S1ipperyJim

Sparr0w wrote: »

Nah just a quick google search for a quote with similar reliability that matched my views, similar to your quote

ha ha! at least you're honest!

But seriously, the dictionary definition of P2W is not 'my view' any more than it is 'my view' that cheese is "a food made from the pressed curds of milk, firm and elastic or soft and semi-liquid in texture." This is the established definition, regardless of what a person might prefer to think or vaguely imply that 'most people believe' otherwise.

I mean, you could probably google some random wacko quote on the internet that "proves' cheese is defined as 'the substance which makes up the surface of the moon" if you wanted but it wouldn't change the actual facts.

Sparr0w

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

Nah just a quick google search for a quote with similar reliability that matched my views, similar to your quote

ha ha! at least you're honest!

But seriously, the dictionary definition of P2W is not 'my view' any more than it is 'my view' that cheese is "a food made from the pressed curds of milk, firm and elastic or soft and semi-liquid in texture." This is the established definition, regardless of what a person might prefer to think or vaguely imply that 'most people believe' otherwise.

I mean, you could probably google some random wacko quote on the internet that "proves' cheese is defined as 'the substance which makes up the surface of the moon" if you wanted but it wouldn't change the actual facts.

@S1ipperyJim There'll always be arguments for both sides since 'winning' is different by everyone's definition. Personally I'd say P2W is only when someone paying would receive a significant power boost over someone not paying (since I mainly run trials), however some would see P2W as someone saving time & skipping a grind by paying if they go for achievements (same with DLC's).

p.s. Urban dictionary isn't an actual dictionary, you can literally post whatever you like on there.

S1ipperyJim

kargen27 wrote: »

Not a survey but read any thread on the topic in these forums and it is really one sided towards this definition being correct and yours being wrong.

Not 'my definition'. Once again: The Urban Dictionary. I didn't write it. Don't have shares in them or anything. It's just the actual objective, general usage, accepted definition of P2W.

And once again, where are your statistics and figures on the 'one sided' opinions from all threads on the subject? You don't have any - you haven't actually tallied any up, have you? I know it sounds convincing and everything to just write a vague guess as a solid statement of fact but you should at least make some small effort to be factual.

S1ipperyJim

Sparr0w wrote: »

p.s. Urban dictionary isn't an actual dictionary, you can literally post whatever you like on there.

No you can't, since it's subject to others voting on whether the definition is accurate or not. The crowd sourced definitions are actually a strength of the site because of it's very nature of being an urban or slang dictionary. It may interest you to know that several times the definitions from the Urban Dictionary have been used as legal evidence to arrive at rulings in court cases.

eg;

nytimes.com/2013/05/21/business/media/urban-dictionary-finds-a-place-in-the-courtroom.html

Now if you think a court case has ever been decided based on some rando's idea of a word from the fortnite forums I suspect even a google search couldn't support that one

Turelus

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Sparr0w wrote: »

p.s. Urban dictionary isn't an actual dictionary, you can literally post whatever you like on there.

No you can't, since it's subject to others voting on whether the definition is accurate or not. The crowd sourced definitions are actually a strength of the site because of it's very nature of being an urban or slang dictionary. It may interest you to know that several times the definitions from the Urban Dictionary have been used as legal evidence to arrive at rulings in court cases.

eg;

nytimes.com/2013/05/21/business/media/urban-dictionary-finds-a-place-in-the-courtroom.html

Now if you think a court case has ever been decided based on some rando's idea of a word from the fortnite forums I suspect even a google search couldn't support that one

Here's proof you can post whatever you like and it will remain for years.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=evetard

Someone did this on a training course I was on years ago because I was chatting to his friends about EVE and made them leave WoW for it.

Troneon

Damn so 3000 crowns would be like what? 1+ mill gold?

This game has become so pathetic now.

Hokiewa

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Not a survey but read any thread on the topic in these forums and it is really one sided towards this definition being correct and yours being wrong.

Not 'my definition'. Once again: The Urban Dictionary. I didn't write it. Don't have shares in them or anything. It's just the actual objective, general usage, accepted definition of P2W.

And once again, where are your statistics and figures on the 'one sided' opinions from all threads on the subject? You don't have any - you haven't actually tallied any up, have you? I know it sounds convincing and everything to just write a vague guess as a solid statement of fact but you should at least make some small effort to be factual.

This is laughable. The Urban Dictionary is a user edited and compiled database. It is not an actual dictionary, a concept you seem to miss. It is not peered reviewed by linguists, wordsmiths, or highly educated English professionals. It's not objective, each definition is simply one person's opinion they decided to publicly share. Prove general usage other than a quote from a non-dictionary? You can't, just like I can't. You can literally find dozens of different definitions. Likewise, it is not the accepted definition of P2W. I could literally type a complete opposite definition of pay to win and you would find it listed as a definition. To suggest otherwise as your main argument is just silly.

You may have a 30 year history of playing video games, but you clearly have never played a game that was actually P2W. If you want to experience I highly suggest almost any random highly competitive Korean MMO. ESO's system is pay to skip time, hardly a new concept. One that's existed for at least 15 years in Western MMOs. Regardless, if you find this objectionable, good luck finding a game that doesn't do it.

Turelus

I was going to make a new Urban Dictionary entry which said P2W doesn't include in game currency being sold, but as the only accounts they allow are Facebook or Google+ then... nope, not giving those for a joke.