PTS Update 19 - Feedback Thread for March of Sacrifices

ZOS_GinaBruno

This is the official feedback thread for March of Sacrifices. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• Did you enjoy this new dungeon?
• How did the difficulty compare to existing dungeons on Normal and Veteran versions?
• Did you complete Normal or Veteran (or both)?
• Which was your favorite boss in this dungeon, and why?
• What level and build was the character you used?
• Do you have any other general feedback?

code65536

Did you enjoy this new dungeon?
Kinda.

How did the difficulty compare to existing dungeons on Normal and Veteran versions?
Veteran seems to be comparable with the other DLC dungeons.

Did you complete Normal or Veteran (or both)?
Did not attempt Normal. Completed Veteran. Best attempt on Vet HM was... LOL.

What level and build was the character you used?
Group composition was DK tank, magplar DD/healer, 2x magblade DD. I was a magblade DD.

Boss-specific feedback:

Boss 1, the wyrd women: Not entirely sure what the mechanics were. We killed one when the other two were still at around half health, and the in-game dialog seemed to suggest that her death would somehow empower the other two, but nothing happened. The only mechanic we noticed was the in-game hint to keep them apart. We just did damage, they died, and the fight seemed rather unremarkable.

Boss 2, that spriggan thing: The mechanic here seemed interesting and cool. And easy to figure out--we got it on our first attempt, and nobody died.

Interlude: Someone in our group veered off the path and said, "hey, what's that cave?" We went to investigate and just kept dying to fall damage with no clue what to do about it. We couldn't even escape the area after rezzing--we eventually had to wayshrine after dying and take the portal back. This was before we had encountered the 4th boss, so at this point, we had no idea about the sneak mechanic. But for people doing this dungeon for the first time, blind, without any prior knowledge, I can see them falling to the same trap that we did (no pun intended). I think this cave should've been placed after the 4th boss, so that people will be familiar with the mechanic. Or there should be some kind of hint. Adding a hint would probably be much easier than redesigning the map, so I should've suggested that first.

Boss 3, the angry nord: This boss seemed fine. The tank was dying a lot to things that we didn't quite understand, but we killed the boss before we had a chance to understand it better. Oh well.

Boss 4, sneakers: This boss was polarizing. Some of us liked it. Some of us (myself included) absolutely hated it. Sneaking around isn't exactly something one would expect from a boss fight. The amount of constant movement, particularly during the final sneak phase, meant that I was running out of stamina. I had to put in 4 skill points into that improved sneak legerdemain passive that I had previously never ever used.

We also wiped a few times on this boss, and the difficulty of this fight is a substantial step higher than the previous ones. I think that this is definitely the most difficult non-final boss fight of the two dungeons. The spectral stags that the boss shoots out of its rear give you no time to react if you're somewhat close to the boss. And the boss's Z'Maja head lasers are pretty painful and can be difficult to avoid--the boss would teleport away and then immediately do the Z'Maja head laser thing, before the tank even has a chance to get there to turn the boss away from us.

Boss 5: We tried a handful of vet HM pulls, but it was late, I was fighting to stay awake, so we just cleared it on vet. But even clearing it on vet was a bit of a struggle.

We didn't get very far in vet HM, so we're not sure how the mechanics are different. That fire attack is what wiped us each time, so the wipes were early and we couldn't see what happens deeper in the fight. The poor telegraphing and lack of hints didn't help things. I think we figured out how we might avoid it, but didn't give it more attempts.

We wiped a couple of times in vet figuring things out. For example, what the hell the trap was. It wasn't immediately clear that the blue glow in the fog was a trap. Because, you know, faint blue glow doesn't exactly scream, "It's a trap!" But once we figured out what the trap was and what it looked like, that mechanic was fine.

The pack of wolves that spawn after each trap mechanic seemed pretty crazy. Each wolf with 200K health and there were so many of them. At the end, it seemed like the trap mechanic was happening faster, and we were getting the trap thing (and more wolf spawns) before the previous wave could be fully dealt with (having one of our DDs dead didn't help; also, it was nigh impossible for me to get a rez off with that many wolves ganged up on us and pushing me around). We eventually killed the boss with a giant swarm of the little wolves alive, with me kiting the small wolves around as I executed the boss.

Oh, and the small wolves remained alive even after the boss died and the NPCs were doing their end-of-the-story spiel. I'm guessing that this is a bug.

One the whole, vet non-HM seemed pretty manageable.

Aliyavana

Design specific feedback:
I really wish that these plants were obtainable ingame in these vibrant shades of color Currently it seems the only obtainable variant is by purchasing the new hircine home but those flowers are not as beautiful as the one I posted above and are duller.

edwiges

Did you enjoy this new dungeon?
Yes, it was very fun! The only part I didn't like was the golden indrik hunts, where you just keep falling. I tried all the three indriks, ice, fire and lightning, but besides aproaching the area sneaking, I kept falling when I runned out of stamina after some time and didn't find any of the bosses. After 3 or 4 deaths for fall damage in each one my group gave up.

How did the difficulty compare to existing dungeons on Normal and Veteran versions?
I have done the normal dungeon in a party in only two people, me playing as templar healer/dd and my husband playng as DK tank. So I believe it is easier with a full party. That being said, I also have done the Dragon Bones dungeons in the pts in the same setup and this one felt a bit harder in normal than the ones of the previous dlc. Maybe that is because the mechanics were more difficult to understand to me.

Did you complete Normal or Veteran (or both)?
Normal in a party of 2 people.

Which was your favorite boss in this dungeon, and why?
My favorite boss was the Springan! I like how the mechanic was easy to figure out, but still required some group coordination.

What level and build was the character you used?
Templar healer/dd 750 CP and DK tank 750 CP.

Do you have any other general feedback?
I didn't fully understood some of the mechanics of the dungeon. For the Wyrd sisters I understood I have to keep them apart and avoid the blue silence area and interrupt attacks when necessary. But it wasn't clear to me what the green area meant, for example. Also after one sister dies, its animal spirit appears, but again I didn't notice any significant diference in combat when that happened.
The golden indrik hunt wasn't clear at all. it was easy to find their spots, but I could'nt find any of the bosses. In the beggining I thought that was because the lack of the wisp, so I proceeded to the second area of the dungeon and got the wisp, but the fire and lightining indrik areas didn't seem to be affected by that, so I got really confused.
The final boss was very interesting. It took me some time to understand the trap mechanism in the fog, and manage the wolves. Also it felt a pain to run from the boss with wolves appling slow, as templar with few mobility, so I had to rely in the acceleration skill from psijic order to help me with that. At some point, however, I noticed that if I stopped DPS 2% before the mechanic startes, the boss wouldn't target me the things got easier. I let the tank dk do this mechanics while I was handling the wolves in the process and the fight was much more enjoyable.

ZOS_Finn

Awesome feedback. Thanks!

jypcy

Did you enjoy this new dungeon?

Dungeon was cool. The dungeon itself made it somewhat unclear where we were supposed to go, but pulling open the map always made it easy. Bosses were cool and visuals were great throughout. The werewolf vibe isn’t really my thing, but I can definitely appreciate that this would be awesome for aficionados.

How did the difficulty compare to existing dungeons on Normal and Veteran versions?
Difficulty seemed about on par for DLC dungeons. I cleared with the same group I tried out the DB dungeons with and we had pretty much the exact same reactions throughout.

Did you complete Normal or Veteran (or both)?
Didn’t try normal, cleared regular vet with a few attempts at vet hm.

Which was your favorite boss in this dungeon, and why?
I think once we figure out the mechanics better for Balorgh this might be my favorite fight, but based on first impressions I think I have to go with Tarcyr. Different, but engaging.

Mechanics for the wyrd sisters either weren’t clear or weren’t threatening enough to make respecting them matter. I kept ranged taunt on the owl and stag and planted myself at the bear. Ursus’ heavy attacks started to hit for more as the fight wore on but other than that I didn’t notice any changes based on how close or far the bosses were.

Same for the spriggan. We noticed the synergies, but never used them. I just taunted the lurchers and stacked them with the main boss. Again, we didn’t really respect mechanics here and nobody felt threatened by not doing so (like you would if you didn’t free an ally during the Doylemish fight or skeletal zoo fight).

Tarcyr’s thralls seems like a manageable fight. The first few times the group just tried to straight burn him but got overwhelmed by the adds. If there was a way to avoid the seeking aoes, we didn’t figure it out. Eventually just had two dps stay on the boss the entire time and the third went to kill the adds as they appeared.

Tarcyr fight was good. Only complaint would be how unpredictable the boss seems to be. As Code mentioned, there were a number of attacks that just seemed to come out of nowhere, especially with how much the boss decides to move around (regardless of taunt as far as I could tell). But perhaps this is meant to be flavorful for the great wild hunt.

Balorgh has cool mechanics. We’re not sure yet whether sneaking is supposed to be employed during this hunt as well, which would likely be confusing for less experienced players as well (if it is the case that it’s “do sneak in this fight” “now don’t sneak in this fight!”). We’re also not exactly sure if there’s an intended way to counteract the burning embers, but that alone didn’t often kill dps so probably not a big deal. We had the same presumed bug where after the boss died, all of the direwolves remained alive during the ending dialogue. It makes me wonder whether there’s a specific mechanic to kill them during the hunt, or if it’s just a bug. Also, during that last hunt, there’s almost a comical number of them that show up.

For hard mode, the main differences we found were the stranglers and the hunt. We never made it past the first hunt here. I managed to trap all four shades once but died before we could see what the boss does next. The amount of distractions (large quantities of direwolves, death trap stranglers, poison AND lightning, plus enormous werewolves shooting fireballs while chasing you) seems overwhelming atm. Imo it might need to be dialed down a bit, but we’ll try it more and see how it goes. If there’s just a mechanic we’re missing, it’s probably fine.

What level and build was the character you used?
Group comp was 1 stam sorc, 1 stamblade, 1 magblade, 1 DK tank (me). Pretty standard setup using 2 pc mighty chudan, 5 pc ebon, 5 pc alkosh (no I didn’t have any synergies but I was too lazy to change ), and 2 pc rampaging slash. All max CP. The stam sorc swapped to a Templar healer after a few pulls in hm.

Do you have any other general feedback?
Agreed that the Golden hunts are a little weird. Probably something we’re missing here as well (something needs to be done to activate the hunt? We all snuck around in there for probably 5 minutes without any sign of a golden indrik), but I could understand this being a real frustration to some players who walk into these places to only continually fall and die.

Aliyavana

The main indrik boss in vet is a bit annoying in that it really kills time for speed runs. Can you cut down the sneak/detection sequence or cut down the amount of health this boss has?

FENGRUSH

Here is a video looking at the hard mode issues I had here. Pretty sure something is not right. Other dungeon all seemed reasonable even though it gets hectic at the end on HM.

https://twitch.tv/videos/283781330

Oh and WWs can't sneak so they couldn't sneak through the one boss fight and I had to break my immersion at that point from werewolf form. Not sure if intended WW cannot sneak, but then how can they truly hunt in the forest?

@ZOS_Finn

Aliyavana

^ wws can't sneak indeed. Would be a nice pvp buff as well if we could sneak but if we cant sneak during the boss sequence then we lose out on dps because we need to regen

andy_s

What @FENGRUSH said. As a dd it's impossible to survive Fire Blast unless you make 30k hp and spam shield. Got this boss to like 17% in hardmode, but then died to Fire Blast (20k tick) + some random damage from water or poison (~5k tick). Everything else is more or less managable for a normal setup (not 4 tanky hybrid builds to survive the fire )

code65536

I just finished watch @LZH's video of their clear of HM. It was surprising to see that, in addition to having a full healer, he was also running a PvPesque setup--amber/shackle/destro/resto. Plus lingering health pots. Judging from that video, that fight in HM looks pretty insane. And probably overtuned.

Aliyavana

code65536 wrote: »

I just finished watch @LZH's video of their clear of HM. It was surprising to see that, in addition to having a full healer, he was also running a PvPesque setup--amber/shackle/destro/resto. Plus lingering health pots. Judging from that video, that fight in HM looks pretty insane. And probably overtuned.

That sounds fun in a sadistic way

Czekoludek

I haven't been three yet but I have a question, is this dung stamina friendly? We, stamina players, get so much only magicka friendly vet content in last few patches that I'm just worried now for my stam main

jypcy

Czekoludek wrote: »

I haven't been three yet but I have a question, is this dung stamina friendly? We, stamina players, get so much only magicka friendly vet content in last few patches that I'm just worried now for my stam main

Check the discussions above about damage in hard mode, which would be the main limiting factor for stam. Other than that, it’s the same as pretty much anywhere: you can complete it on stam, but that often requires a lot more awareness of mechanics.

With mag and stam affording pretty equal dps nowadays, this often results in players just using mag, as it offers more or less just as much without requiring so much added dancing.

TheNightflame

honestly, im ok with there being a dungeon hardmode that forces you out of your min max setup and has a difficulty comparable to a difficult trial (im not saying this is like that though). it's a lot easier to get a consistent group of 4 to do stuff with, and some 4 man content should have credit for being as difficult as some 12 man.

code65536

We gave the HM of this dungeon another try today.

The things that were killing us:

• The DoT from the boss's fire attack. Hits for about 10K per tick. We had a dedicated healer and I even swapped to a resto back bar, and surviving that DoT was still hit-or-miss. This DoT is just insanely punishing, and I survive it only with the help of multiple HoTs and a shield. I can't imagine how on earth a stamina character is supposed to deal with it.
  • The 4.1.1 patch notes also said, "The Perfect Hunt Achievement now requires you to defeat Balorgh after desecrating the Moon Hunter Pack's banner, and without being hit by his fiery remnant ability for the duration of the encounter in Veteran March of Sacrifices." ... we tried dodging the boss's fire attack to avoid the DoT, and that didn't seem to work. Not sure how you expect us to avoid being hit by that fire attack.
• The dire wolves during the hunt. Individually, they hit for a mere 2-3K. But 2-3K hits add up to a lot when there's a pack of them are on you and when you're also dealing with all the other sources of incoming damage. We tried thinning out the pack, but they have just too much health, esp. considering that it's hard to do damage to them when you and the wolves are constantly moving. Their health should be low enough that if someone drops their destro on it, it should kill them. Their current level of health just seems inappropriate given everything else that we have to contend with during the hunt.
• Fire attack during the hunt. Your camera isn't looking at the boss because you're trying to find the trap and then navigate to it. And then, out of the blue, you get whacked by a fireball and have to deal with the subsequent DoT. And even when your camera is in the direction of the boss (or rather, pack of bosses), the fog of the hunt makes it so that half the time I can't see this attack coming.
• Boss shade cone during the hunt. Same concerns as above. Really hard to see it coming, and the way the boss shades don't render until they get really close makes it that much harder to see and anticipate this.
• Mechanics switch from electrified water to poisoned ground. During the normal phase, this is fine. During the hunt, you can't see the visual cues of this mechanics switch. Generally, I don't notice that the water's been electrified until I take a couple of damage ticks, and I don't notice that the ground is poisoned until aoes have already spawned. This means that we are taking more initial ticks from these mechanics. And normally, this would be a non-issue, but during the hunt, it just adds to what has become a grotesque pile of stacked mechanics.

All of these mechanics are manageable on their own. But when they're all stacked together, during a phase when much of your attention is focused on finding and navigating to traps, when there is a fog that limits your ability to see warnings and tells, all the while dealing with the possibility that that you'll get violated by strangler tentacles... it's all just too much. The gap between non-HM and HM is the largest that I've ever seen in a dungeon. You didn't add just a few new mechanics to HM--you added and stacked everything plus the kitchen sink.

Non-HM is fairly easy. On the other hand, HM is, frankly, an overtuned mess that is not enjoyable at all. It makes the Scalecaller, Fang Lair, and Moon Hunter Keep HMs look like leisurely walks in the park in comparison.

Aliyavana

code65536 wrote: »

We gave the HM of this dungeon another try today.

The things that were killing us:

• The DoT from the boss's fire attack. Hits for about 10K per tick. We had a dedicated healer and I even swapped to a resto back bar, and surviving that DoT was still hit-or-miss. This DoT is just insanely punishing, and I survive it only with the help of multiple HoTs and a shield. I can't imagine how on earth a stamina character is supposed to deal with it.
  • The 4.1.1 patch notes also said, "The Perfect Hunt Achievement now requires you to defeat Balorgh after desecrating the Moon Hunter Pack's banner, and without being hit by his fiery remnant ability for the duration of the encounter in Veteran March of Sacrifices." ... we tried dodging the boss's fire attack to avoid the DoT, and that didn't seem to work. Not sure how you expect us to avoid being hit by that fire attack.
• The dire wolves during the hunt. Individually, they hit for a mere 2-3K. But 2-3K hits add up to a lot when there's a pack of them are on you and when you're also dealing with all the other sources of incoming damage. We tried thinning out the pack, but they have just too much health, esp. considering that it's hard to do damage to them when you and the wolves are constantly moving. Their health should be low enough that if someone drops their destro on it, it should kill them. Their current level of health just seems inappropriate given everything else that we have to contend with during the hunt.
• Fire attack during the hunt. Your camera isn't looking at the boss because you're trying to find the trap and then navigate to it. And then, out of the blue, you get whacked by a fireball and have to deal with the subsequent DoT. And even when your camera is in the direction of the boss (or rather, pack of bosses), the fog of the hunt makes it so that half the time I can't see this attack coming.
• Boss shade cone during the hunt. Same concerns as above. Really hard to see it coming, and the way the boss shades don't render until they get really close makes it that much harder to see and anticipate this.
• Mechanics switch from electrified water to poisoned ground. During the normal phase, this is fine. During the hunt, you can't see the visual cues of this mechanics switch. Generally, I don't notice that the water's been electrified until I take a couple of damage ticks, and I don't notice that the ground is poisoned until aoes have already spawned. This means that we are taking more initial ticks from these mechanics. And normally, this would be a non-issue, but during the hunt, it just adds to what has become a grotesque pile of stacked mechanics.

All of these mechanics are manageable on their own. But when they're all stacked together, during a phase when much of your attention is focused on finding and navigating to traps, when there is a fog that limits your ability to see warnings and tells, all the while dealing with the possibility that that you'll get violated by strangler tentacles... it's all just too much. The gap between non-HM and HM is the largest that I've ever seen in a dungeon. You didn't add just a few new mechanics to HM--you added and stacked everything plus the kitchen sink.

Non-HM is fairly easy. On the other hand, HM is, frankly, an overtuned mess that is not enjoyable at all. It makes the Scalecaller, Fang Lair, and Moon Hunter Keep HMs look like leisurely walks in the park in comparison.

Another dungeon that favors magika? Ugh

JPcrazysquirrel3

How does anyone get the dungeons done on NA server? No one ever wants to do them. Like in Dragon Bones PTS, nobody wanted to try the dungeons, they just dueled the whole time in Evermore.

code65536

JPcrazysquirrel3 wrote: »

How does anyone get the dungeons done on NA server? No one ever wants to do them. Like in Dragon Bones PTS, nobody wanted to try the dungeons, they just dueled the whole time in Evermore.

Dueling is a good way for PvP-centric players to test out combat balance and item set changes.

As for the dungeons, I go in with a pre-formed group of friends and guildmates, and we pre-schedule a block of time for it. It's new content that you're figuring out as you go, without any existing guides to work from, so it's necessary to have a group that's all in voice comms, familiar with each other, and ready to spend the hours needed to figure things out through a lot of trial and error. Because of this, people generally don't PUG on the PTS.

TheNightflame

(*whispers* please let there be a 4 man hardmode, with some sort of reward, that has a difficulty to rival trials)

code65536

TheNightflame wrote: »

(*whispers* please let there be a 4 man hardmode, with some sort of reward, that has a difficulty to rival trials)

Um. Have you actually tried this dungeon's HM? In its current state, I'd say it's harder than the HM of any trial.

TheNightflame

im on console else i'd love to. i did see a group clear it though with a non-meta setup and the one clear is enough hope for me (they got it way faster than hm cloudrest was cleared on pts). i don't want it to be a to-do list challenger achievement that is assumed achievable in a night. but yeah, im not on pts so can't speak from experience, all im going by is the fact that it's possible. edit: it shouldnt be so wrong for there to be one 4 man thing to have the status of being as hard as you described.

profundidob16_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

We gave the HM of this dungeon another try today.

The things that were killing us:

• The DoT from the boss's fire attack. Hits for about 10K per tick. We had a dedicated healer and I even swapped to a resto back bar, and surviving that DoT was still hit-or-miss. This DoT is just insanely punishing, and I survive it only with the help of multiple HoTs and a shield. I can't imagine how on earth a stamina character is supposed to deal with it.
  • The 4.1.1 patch notes also said, "The Perfect Hunt Achievement now requires you to defeat Balorgh after desecrating the Moon Hunter Pack's banner, and without being hit by his fiery remnant ability for the duration of the encounter in Veteran March of Sacrifices." ... we tried dodging the boss's fire attack to avoid the DoT, and that didn't seem to work. Not sure how you expect us to avoid being hit by that fire attack.
• The dire wolves during the hunt. Individually, they hit for a mere 2-3K. But 2-3K hits add up to a lot when there's a pack of them are on you and when you're also dealing with all the other sources of incoming damage. We tried thinning out the pack, but they have just too much health, esp. considering that it's hard to do damage to them when you and the wolves are constantly moving. Their health should be low enough that if someone drops their destro on it, it should kill them. Their current level of health just seems inappropriate given everything else that we have to contend with during the hunt.
• Fire attack during the hunt. Your camera isn't looking at the boss because you're trying to find the trap and then navigate to it. And then, out of the blue, you get whacked by a fireball and have to deal with the subsequent DoT. And even when your camera is in the direction of the boss (or rather, pack of bosses), the fog of the hunt makes it so that half the time I can't see this attack coming.
• Boss shade cone during the hunt. Same concerns as above. Really hard to see it coming, and the way the boss shades don't render until they get really close makes it that much harder to see and anticipate this.
• Mechanics switch from electrified water to poisoned ground. During the normal phase, this is fine. During the hunt, you can't see the visual cues of this mechanics switch. Generally, I don't notice that the water's been electrified until I take a couple of damage ticks, and I don't notice that the ground is poisoned until aoes have already spawned. This means that we are taking more initial ticks from these mechanics. And normally, this would be a non-issue, but during the hunt, it just adds to what has become a grotesque pile of stacked mechanics.

All of these mechanics are manageable on their own. But when they're all stacked together, during a phase when much of your attention is focused on finding and navigating to traps, when there is a fog that limits your ability to see warnings and tells, all the while dealing with the possibility that that you'll get violated by strangler tentacles... it's all just too much. The gap between non-HM and HM is the largest that I've ever seen in a dungeon. You didn't add just a few new mechanics to HM--you added and stacked everything plus the kitchen sink.

Non-HM is fairly easy. On the other hand, HM is, frankly, an overtuned mess that is not enjoyable at all. It makes the Scalecaller, Fang Lair, and Moon Hunter Keep HMs look like leisurely walks in the park in comparison.

Follow the logic. If a dot ticks for 10K a tick on a serious prepped character it's meant to be prevented or avoided through mechanics that you are currently not aware of yet. Like for instance stay close enough to the boss so he never uses it (like last boss 'tempest island' for example where she only does the chuck norris roundkick if you go out of melee range)

This mechanic would force you to all be close at certain times and spread out to avoid land or water at other times

code65536

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

We gave the HM of this dungeon another try today.

The things that were killing us:

• The DoT from the boss's fire attack. Hits for about 10K per tick. We had a dedicated healer and I even swapped to a resto back bar, and surviving that DoT was still hit-or-miss. This DoT is just insanely punishing, and I survive it only with the help of multiple HoTs and a shield. I can't imagine how on earth a stamina character is supposed to deal with it.
  • The 4.1.1 patch notes also said, "The Perfect Hunt Achievement now requires you to defeat Balorgh after desecrating the Moon Hunter Pack's banner, and without being hit by his fiery remnant ability for the duration of the encounter in Veteran March of Sacrifices." ... we tried dodging the boss's fire attack to avoid the DoT, and that didn't seem to work. Not sure how you expect us to avoid being hit by that fire attack.
• The dire wolves during the hunt. Individually, they hit for a mere 2-3K. But 2-3K hits add up to a lot when there's a pack of them are on you and when you're also dealing with all the other sources of incoming damage. We tried thinning out the pack, but they have just too much health, esp. considering that it's hard to do damage to them when you and the wolves are constantly moving. Their health should be low enough that if someone drops their destro on it, it should kill them. Their current level of health just seems inappropriate given everything else that we have to contend with during the hunt.
• Fire attack during the hunt. Your camera isn't looking at the boss because you're trying to find the trap and then navigate to it. And then, out of the blue, you get whacked by a fireball and have to deal with the subsequent DoT. And even when your camera is in the direction of the boss (or rather, pack of bosses), the fog of the hunt makes it so that half the time I can't see this attack coming.
• Boss shade cone during the hunt. Same concerns as above. Really hard to see it coming, and the way the boss shades don't render until they get really close makes it that much harder to see and anticipate this.
• Mechanics switch from electrified water to poisoned ground. During the normal phase, this is fine. During the hunt, you can't see the visual cues of this mechanics switch. Generally, I don't notice that the water's been electrified until I take a couple of damage ticks, and I don't notice that the ground is poisoned until aoes have already spawned. This means that we are taking more initial ticks from these mechanics. And normally, this would be a non-issue, but during the hunt, it just adds to what has become a grotesque pile of stacked mechanics.

All of these mechanics are manageable on their own. But when they're all stacked together, during a phase when much of your attention is focused on finding and navigating to traps, when there is a fog that limits your ability to see warnings and tells, all the while dealing with the possibility that that you'll get violated by strangler tentacles... it's all just too much. The gap between non-HM and HM is the largest that I've ever seen in a dungeon. You didn't add just a few new mechanics to HM--you added and stacked everything plus the kitchen sink.

Non-HM is fairly easy. On the other hand, HM is, frankly, an overtuned mess that is not enjoyable at all. It makes the Scalecaller, Fang Lair, and Moon Hunter Keep HMs look like leisurely walks in the park in comparison.

Follow the logic. If a dot ticks for 10K a tick on a serious prepped character it's meant to be prevented or avoided through mechanics that you are currently not aware of yet. Like for instance stay close enough to the boss so he never uses it (like last boss 'tempest island' for example where she only does the chuck norris roundkick if you go out of melee range)

This mechanic would force you to all be close at certain times and spread out to avoid land or water at other times

Of course. There is a deliberate reason why, in my post, I mentioned the existence of an achievement that seemingly requires the avoidance of that fire. Yes, we tried dodging (maybe we mistimed it?). And yes, we tried engaging the boss at various ranges, and it hit us regardless of whether we were standing far back or whether we were so close to the boss that we were just outside of the 1-shot AoE from the boss when he does do the fire attack.

The only thing that had worked was when someone engaged their invisibility cloak right when the fireball launched, which caused it to miss (because cloak causes all in-flight projectiles to miss, as most people who have fought a nightblade in PvP will have noticed), but we assume that is not what ZOS intended.

So either the DoT needs to be tuned down, or there is a bug that is making avoidance too difficult, or the means to avoid it are so obscure and non-obvious that we (and, AFAIK, other groups) have not figured it out (MC's clear of HM involved them just brute-force healing through the DoT). Either way, something needs to be adjusted.

profundidob16_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

We gave the HM of this dungeon another try today.

The things that were killing us:

• The DoT from the boss's fire attack. Hits for about 10K per tick. We had a dedicated healer and I even swapped to a resto back bar, and surviving that DoT was still hit-or-miss. This DoT is just insanely punishing, and I survive it only with the help of multiple HoTs and a shield. I can't imagine how on earth a stamina character is supposed to deal with it.
  • The 4.1.1 patch notes also said, "The Perfect Hunt Achievement now requires you to defeat Balorgh after desecrating the Moon Hunter Pack's banner, and without being hit by his fiery remnant ability for the duration of the encounter in Veteran March of Sacrifices." ... we tried dodging the boss's fire attack to avoid the DoT, and that didn't seem to work. Not sure how you expect us to avoid being hit by that fire attack.
• The dire wolves during the hunt. Individually, they hit for a mere 2-3K. But 2-3K hits add up to a lot when there's a pack of them are on you and when you're also dealing with all the other sources of incoming damage. We tried thinning out the pack, but they have just too much health, esp. considering that it's hard to do damage to them when you and the wolves are constantly moving. Their health should be low enough that if someone drops their destro on it, it should kill them. Their current level of health just seems inappropriate given everything else that we have to contend with during the hunt.
• Fire attack during the hunt. Your camera isn't looking at the boss because you're trying to find the trap and then navigate to it. And then, out of the blue, you get whacked by a fireball and have to deal with the subsequent DoT. And even when your camera is in the direction of the boss (or rather, pack of bosses), the fog of the hunt makes it so that half the time I can't see this attack coming.
• Boss shade cone during the hunt. Same concerns as above. Really hard to see it coming, and the way the boss shades don't render until they get really close makes it that much harder to see and anticipate this.
• Mechanics switch from electrified water to poisoned ground. During the normal phase, this is fine. During the hunt, you can't see the visual cues of this mechanics switch. Generally, I don't notice that the water's been electrified until I take a couple of damage ticks, and I don't notice that the ground is poisoned until aoes have already spawned. This means that we are taking more initial ticks from these mechanics. And normally, this would be a non-issue, but during the hunt, it just adds to what has become a grotesque pile of stacked mechanics.

All of these mechanics are manageable on their own. But when they're all stacked together, during a phase when much of your attention is focused on finding and navigating to traps, when there is a fog that limits your ability to see warnings and tells, all the while dealing with the possibility that that you'll get violated by strangler tentacles... it's all just too much. The gap between non-HM and HM is the largest that I've ever seen in a dungeon. You didn't add just a few new mechanics to HM--you added and stacked everything plus the kitchen sink.

Non-HM is fairly easy. On the other hand, HM is, frankly, an overtuned mess that is not enjoyable at all. It makes the Scalecaller, Fang Lair, and Moon Hunter Keep HMs look like leisurely walks in the park in comparison.

Follow the logic. If a dot ticks for 10K a tick on a serious prepped character it's meant to be prevented or avoided through mechanics that you are currently not aware of yet. Like for instance stay close enough to the boss so he never uses it (like last boss 'tempest island' for example where she only does the chuck norris roundkick if you go out of melee range)

This mechanic would force you to all be close at certain times and spread out to avoid land or water at other times

Of course. There is a deliberate reason why, in my post, I mentioned the existence of an achievement that seemingly requires the avoidance of that fire. Yes, we tried dodging (maybe we mistimed it?). And yes, we tried engaging the boss at various ranges, and it hit us regardless of whether we were standing far back or whether we were so close to the boss that we were just outside of the 1-shot AoE from the boss when he does do the fire attack.

The only thing that had worked was when someone engaged their invisibility cloak right when the fireball launched, which caused it to miss (because cloak causes all in-flight projectiles to miss, as most people who have fought a nightblade in PvP will have noticed), but we assume that is not what ZOS intended.

So either the DoT needs to be tuned down, or there is a bug that is making avoidance too difficult, or the means to avoid it are so obscure and non-obvious that we (and, AFAIK, other groups) have not figured it out (MC's clear of HM involved them just brute-force healing through the DoT). Either way, something needs to be adjusted.

I see. You tried several things already yes. I'll try it too if I get the chance soon. In the meanwhile something else to try: could you lose the fire dot by entering the water ? Then by staying on the edges of water/land you could always react fast and reduce the dot ticking to only 1 solo hit. Also Purge dispelling or practiced incantation cleansing did not work I suppose ?

code65536

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

We gave the HM of this dungeon another try today.

The things that were killing us:

• The DoT from the boss's fire attack. Hits for about 10K per tick. We had a dedicated healer and I even swapped to a resto back bar, and surviving that DoT was still hit-or-miss. This DoT is just insanely punishing, and I survive it only with the help of multiple HoTs and a shield. I can't imagine how on earth a stamina character is supposed to deal with it.
  • The 4.1.1 patch notes also said, "The Perfect Hunt Achievement now requires you to defeat Balorgh after desecrating the Moon Hunter Pack's banner, and without being hit by his fiery remnant ability for the duration of the encounter in Veteran March of Sacrifices." ... we tried dodging the boss's fire attack to avoid the DoT, and that didn't seem to work. Not sure how you expect us to avoid being hit by that fire attack.
• The dire wolves during the hunt. Individually, they hit for a mere 2-3K. But 2-3K hits add up to a lot when there's a pack of them are on you and when you're also dealing with all the other sources of incoming damage. We tried thinning out the pack, but they have just too much health, esp. considering that it's hard to do damage to them when you and the wolves are constantly moving. Their health should be low enough that if someone drops their destro on it, it should kill them. Their current level of health just seems inappropriate given everything else that we have to contend with during the hunt.
• Fire attack during the hunt. Your camera isn't looking at the boss because you're trying to find the trap and then navigate to it. And then, out of the blue, you get whacked by a fireball and have to deal with the subsequent DoT. And even when your camera is in the direction of the boss (or rather, pack of bosses), the fog of the hunt makes it so that half the time I can't see this attack coming.
• Boss shade cone during the hunt. Same concerns as above. Really hard to see it coming, and the way the boss shades don't render until they get really close makes it that much harder to see and anticipate this.
• Mechanics switch from electrified water to poisoned ground. During the normal phase, this is fine. During the hunt, you can't see the visual cues of this mechanics switch. Generally, I don't notice that the water's been electrified until I take a couple of damage ticks, and I don't notice that the ground is poisoned until aoes have already spawned. This means that we are taking more initial ticks from these mechanics. And normally, this would be a non-issue, but during the hunt, it just adds to what has become a grotesque pile of stacked mechanics.

All of these mechanics are manageable on their own. But when they're all stacked together, during a phase when much of your attention is focused on finding and navigating to traps, when there is a fog that limits your ability to see warnings and tells, all the while dealing with the possibility that that you'll get violated by strangler tentacles... it's all just too much. The gap between non-HM and HM is the largest that I've ever seen in a dungeon. You didn't add just a few new mechanics to HM--you added and stacked everything plus the kitchen sink.

Non-HM is fairly easy. On the other hand, HM is, frankly, an overtuned mess that is not enjoyable at all. It makes the Scalecaller, Fang Lair, and Moon Hunter Keep HMs look like leisurely walks in the park in comparison.

Follow the logic. If a dot ticks for 10K a tick on a serious prepped character it's meant to be prevented or avoided through mechanics that you are currently not aware of yet. Like for instance stay close enough to the boss so he never uses it (like last boss 'tempest island' for example where she only does the chuck norris roundkick if you go out of melee range)

This mechanic would force you to all be close at certain times and spread out to avoid land or water at other times

Of course. There is a deliberate reason why, in my post, I mentioned the existence of an achievement that seemingly requires the avoidance of that fire. Yes, we tried dodging (maybe we mistimed it?). And yes, we tried engaging the boss at various ranges, and it hit us regardless of whether we were standing far back or whether we were so close to the boss that we were just outside of the 1-shot AoE from the boss when he does do the fire attack.

The only thing that had worked was when someone engaged their invisibility cloak right when the fireball launched, which caused it to miss (because cloak causes all in-flight projectiles to miss, as most people who have fought a nightblade in PvP will have noticed), but we assume that is not what ZOS intended.

So either the DoT needs to be tuned down, or there is a bug that is making avoidance too difficult, or the means to avoid it are so obscure and non-obvious that we (and, AFAIK, other groups) have not figured it out (MC's clear of HM involved them just brute-force healing through the DoT). Either way, something needs to be adjusted.

I see. You tried several things already yes. I'll try it too if I get the chance soon. In the meanwhile something else to try: could you lose the fire dot by entering the water ? Then by staying on the edges of water/land you could always react fast and reduce the dot ticking to only 1 solo hit. Also Purge dispelling or practiced incantation cleansing did not work I suppose ?

Water does not dispel the fire DoT. Purge does not remove the fire DoT. I have a feeling that ZOS didn't really playtest this mechanic, since it is present only on vet HM.

profundidob16_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

We gave the HM of this dungeon another try today.

The things that were killing us:

• The DoT from the boss's fire attack. Hits for about 10K per tick. We had a dedicated healer and I even swapped to a resto back bar, and surviving that DoT was still hit-or-miss. This DoT is just insanely punishing, and I survive it only with the help of multiple HoTs and a shield. I can't imagine how on earth a stamina character is supposed to deal with it.
  • The 4.1.1 patch notes also said, "The Perfect Hunt Achievement now requires you to defeat Balorgh after desecrating the Moon Hunter Pack's banner, and without being hit by his fiery remnant ability for the duration of the encounter in Veteran March of Sacrifices." ... we tried dodging the boss's fire attack to avoid the DoT, and that didn't seem to work. Not sure how you expect us to avoid being hit by that fire attack.
• The dire wolves during the hunt. Individually, they hit for a mere 2-3K. But 2-3K hits add up to a lot when there's a pack of them are on you and when you're also dealing with all the other sources of incoming damage. We tried thinning out the pack, but they have just too much health, esp. considering that it's hard to do damage to them when you and the wolves are constantly moving. Their health should be low enough that if someone drops their destro on it, it should kill them. Their current level of health just seems inappropriate given everything else that we have to contend with during the hunt.
• Fire attack during the hunt. Your camera isn't looking at the boss because you're trying to find the trap and then navigate to it. And then, out of the blue, you get whacked by a fireball and have to deal with the subsequent DoT. And even when your camera is in the direction of the boss (or rather, pack of bosses), the fog of the hunt makes it so that half the time I can't see this attack coming.
• Boss shade cone during the hunt. Same concerns as above. Really hard to see it coming, and the way the boss shades don't render until they get really close makes it that much harder to see and anticipate this.
• Mechanics switch from electrified water to poisoned ground. During the normal phase, this is fine. During the hunt, you can't see the visual cues of this mechanics switch. Generally, I don't notice that the water's been electrified until I take a couple of damage ticks, and I don't notice that the ground is poisoned until aoes have already spawned. This means that we are taking more initial ticks from these mechanics. And normally, this would be a non-issue, but during the hunt, it just adds to what has become a grotesque pile of stacked mechanics.

All of these mechanics are manageable on their own. But when they're all stacked together, during a phase when much of your attention is focused on finding and navigating to traps, when there is a fog that limits your ability to see warnings and tells, all the while dealing with the possibility that that you'll get violated by strangler tentacles... it's all just too much. The gap between non-HM and HM is the largest that I've ever seen in a dungeon. You didn't add just a few new mechanics to HM--you added and stacked everything plus the kitchen sink.

Non-HM is fairly easy. On the other hand, HM is, frankly, an overtuned mess that is not enjoyable at all. It makes the Scalecaller, Fang Lair, and Moon Hunter Keep HMs look like leisurely walks in the park in comparison.

Follow the logic. If a dot ticks for 10K a tick on a serious prepped character it's meant to be prevented or avoided through mechanics that you are currently not aware of yet. Like for instance stay close enough to the boss so he never uses it (like last boss 'tempest island' for example where she only does the chuck norris roundkick if you go out of melee range)

This mechanic would force you to all be close at certain times and spread out to avoid land or water at other times

Of course. There is a deliberate reason why, in my post, I mentioned the existence of an achievement that seemingly requires the avoidance of that fire. Yes, we tried dodging (maybe we mistimed it?). And yes, we tried engaging the boss at various ranges, and it hit us regardless of whether we were standing far back or whether we were so close to the boss that we were just outside of the 1-shot AoE from the boss when he does do the fire attack.

The only thing that had worked was when someone engaged their invisibility cloak right when the fireball launched, which caused it to miss (because cloak causes all in-flight projectiles to miss, as most people who have fought a nightblade in PvP will have noticed), but we assume that is not what ZOS intended.

So either the DoT needs to be tuned down, or there is a bug that is making avoidance too difficult, or the means to avoid it are so obscure and non-obvious that we (and, AFAIK, other groups) have not figured it out (MC's clear of HM involved them just brute-force healing through the DoT). Either way, something needs to be adjusted.

I see. You tried several things already yes. I'll try it too if I get the chance soon. In the meanwhile something else to try: could you lose the fire dot by entering the water ? Then by staying on the edges of water/land you could always react fast and reduce the dot ticking to only 1 solo hit. Also Purge dispelling or practiced incantation cleansing did not work I suppose ?

Water does not dispel the fire DoT. Purge does not remove the fire DoT. I have a feeling that ZOS didn't really playtest this mechanic, since it is present only on vet HM.

another idea: maybe the dmge by itself is indeed unavoidable but it can be steered so it's always tank that receives it through some mechanic like furthest/closest person or line of fire like lord warden barrage

ZOS releasing mechanics that are not 100% tested ? Naaah, that couldn't be the case, right ? =p =p

jypcy

I’ve tried some positioning myself so that the boss isn’t aimed towards the party but he’ll still spit out fireballs that curve towards the rest of the team. Assuming there is a mechanic to avoid the projectile, my best guess at this point is crouching as it’s coming towards you. But I’d assume it is truly unavoidable.

As for the achievement, I’ll double check, but I think that fiery remnant is something else (presumably the trail of fire he leaves after a charge). Iirc, the projectile itself is fire blast and the dot is burning embers. Not sure what the aoe slam is called offhand.

code65536

jypcy wrote: »

I’ve tried some positioning myself so that the boss isn’t aimed towards the party but he’ll still spit out fireballs that curve towards the rest of the team. Assuming there is a mechanic to avoid the projectile, my best guess at this point is crouching as it’s coming towards you. But I’d assume it is truly unavoidable.

As for the achievement, I’ll double check, but I think that fiery remnant is something else (presumably the trail of fire he leaves after a charge). Iirc, the projectile itself is fire blast and the dot is burning embers. Not sure what the aoe slam is called offhand.

As far as I can tell--and please correct me if I'm wrong--the fireballs are called Fire Blast. When they hit, they apply an effect called Fiery Remnant. And the DoT damage from that effect is called Burning Embers.

profundidob16_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

I’ve tried some positioning myself so that the boss isn’t aimed towards the party but he’ll still spit out fireballs that curve towards the rest of the team. Assuming there is a mechanic to avoid the projectile, my best guess at this point is crouching as it’s coming towards you. But I’d assume it is truly unavoidable.

As for the achievement, I’ll double check, but I think that fiery remnant is something else (presumably the trail of fire he leaves after a charge). Iirc, the projectile itself is fire blast and the dot is burning embers. Not sure what the aoe slam is called offhand.

As far as I can tell--and please correct me if I'm wrong--the fireballs are called Fire Blast. When they hit, they apply an effect called Fiery Remnant. And the DoT damage from that effect is called Burning Embers.

aah that would make sense. The fireblast initial impact dmge has just been reduced in 4.1.1 notes so it means this dmge is intended and rather unavoidable but perhaps the dot that remains after it might be handled or removed in some way

jypcy

code65536 wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

I’ve tried some positioning myself so that the boss isn’t aimed towards the party but he’ll still spit out fireballs that curve towards the rest of the team. Assuming there is a mechanic to avoid the projectile, my best guess at this point is crouching as it’s coming towards you. But I’d assume it is truly unavoidable.

As for the achievement, I’ll double check, but I think that fiery remnant is something else (presumably the trail of fire he leaves after a charge). Iirc, the projectile itself is fire blast and the dot is burning embers. Not sure what the aoe slam is called offhand.

As far as I can tell--and please correct me if I'm wrong--the fireballs are called Fire Blast. When they hit, they apply an effect called Fiery Remnant. And the DoT damage from that effect is called Burning Embers.

That certainly could be the case. I never bothered to look at my active effects, just the damage sources themselves. I’ve also tried dodge rolling the fireballs several times to no avail. If the achievement is entirely avoiding that fire dot, then that probably does mean something somewhere is bugged.

Either way, I agree with your earlier post about the stacked mechanics. Everything right now makes it feel like original fang lair hm where Thurvokun roars tended to fear you into the ghost walls. I think they can keep all the mechanics in the fight, just don’t make them all overlap, or tune them down, not up, when they do all overlap during the hunt phases.