End the BiS Discrimination

Mojmir

Never heard of this any run ive done, only time someones asked to change something in my raids is because someone else is running the same thing and they dont stack.

Soella

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Racial passives are the only element of a build that can’t be changed after character creation. The fact that spreadsheet toting power gamers use that to boot people from groups is enough to warrant the removal of racial passives, imo.

The problem are not the racial passives. The problem are the players, and yu won't change that by removing racial passives. If you do that, they will find other ways to be total tools. (Like, we've seen quite a few "I've been kicked for low CP" threads where "low" was way over 160.)

Other things can be changed. CP, gear, skills, etc. No, people won’t ever stop being tools, but racial passives are the only thing that people cannot modify after character creation. Removing them would help by eliminating that element of the almighty meta. Any other aspect of a build can be adapted except that. They need to go because they’re too restrictive thanks to power gamer stupidity.

Racial passives are fine for single player games. They’re not good for multiplayer games - anything that might affect combat effectiveness in ESO that can’t be changed after character creation shouldn’t be a factor and should probably go.

Difference caused by racial passives is negligible compared to difference caused by personal skills. If you are putting together team to top leaderboards you probably should care about it, otherwise it does not matter at all.

DuskMarine

ArchMikem wrote: »

I'm pretty sure i was booted from my pug solely due to my Khajiit committing the crime of holding a staff, because there's no other logical reason i can think of other than the other DPS looking at me and going "oh great its a mag cat he can't do anything".

The PSA is classes can be played just fine on ANY Race, no matter the content. My Khajiit just so happens to hold several vet trial titles as a MagSorc as a testament to that. So please when you see a High Elf Stamblade or a Nord Magplar or a Khajiit Magsorc, just give them a chance and see what happens. No one wants to be thrown from the dungeon without a word.

a khajit can play any role but if i saw you playing a race that doesnt fit the class your playing itd give me a chuckle but id still get you through the content cause im capable in my abilities so id just let anyone play what they want. i got my guild if i ever wanna do serious stuff. but if i see a random its like meh who cares im just here for the exp or pledge lets get this done.

Apache_Kid

Darkstorne wrote: »

And this rep for dungeon groups is precisely why, at almost 300CP, I still haven't tried running a single dungeon. I enjoy weird builds too much, hate the idea of playing builds that are "so hot right now", and threads like this make me cringe at the thought of bringing my MagWarden DPS or StamWarden healer, both wielding 2H main bar and bow back bar, into even a normal mode dungeon...

I would cringe at the thought of you bringing those into a dungeon as well so at least we agree on that.

ezio45

Unfair as it sounds theres a reason players want bis, many reasons. The less members of the group you have on point the harder things get for everyone else. Not everyone, especially in pugs is willing to pick up other players that arnt looking to preform at there best. Some pugs cant even do that and would struggle with a group where everyone is bis for there class and is it really fair to the other group members?

Like yes, a group member in that group maybe pull lower numbers than you but you dont know that instantly and if i saw straight from the start a khajiit with a staff or a highelf with a bow and i had someone who can fill id probably kick them too just because its more likely that you can have a smooth run with them. Even if you are a great player, there are plently of great players and the bis person is going to be better because they have the best set up.

Also think about it like this, if you have all dps as khajiit mag build. That group is obviously going to be lacking in dps. so not everyone that is dps is going to be able to run. Some of the dps is going going to have to be running standard builds. If some of the group members are going to have to play a certain way to complete it, why is it fair that they have to and not everyone?

Not trying to be mean, just giving reasons that people are like this

Trinity_Is_My_Name

I have never run across this specific reason to kick but I am sure it happens. What I have seen lately are Fake Tanks in Vet PUGs. 15K health and no 1H and Shield. Fake Tank got Voted Out fairly quickly.

I don't have any B.I.S. builds either and run all kinds of setups. I Tank, DPS and run Healers and don't think I have ever followed the "META". Heck, one of my Tanks use to be my main DPS, a Dark Elf DK Vampire.

I hear you, I don't know why someone would look at your Race and go "oh, lets kick him because of his Race for his class" but as you posted it does happen. Sigh.

srfrogg23

Royaji wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Racial passives are the only element of a build that can’t be changed after character creation. The fact that spreadsheet toting power gamers use that to boot people from groups is enough to warrant the removal of racial passives, imo.

The problem are not the racial passives. The problem are the players, and yu won't change that by removing racial passives. If you do that, they will find other ways to be total tools. (Like, we've seen quite a few "I've been kicked for low CP" threads where "low" was way over 160.)

Other things can be changed. CP, gear, skills, etc. No, people won’t ever stop being tools, but racial passives are the only thing that people cannot modify after character creation. Removing them would help by eliminating that element of the almighty meta. Any other aspect of a build can be adapted except that. They need to go because they’re too restrictive thanks to power gamer stupidity.

Racial passives are fine for single player games. They’re not good for multiplayer games - anything that might affect combat effectiveness in ESO that can’t be changed after character creation shouldn’t be a factor and should probably go.

Actually there is another thing people can't modify after character creation screen. Classes. Should we also get rid of those?

Not the same thing. No need to be obtuse about it. Classes exist to create variety, not limit it.

srfrogg23

Soella wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Racial passives are the only element of a build that can’t be changed after character creation. The fact that spreadsheet toting power gamers use that to boot people from groups is enough to warrant the removal of racial passives, imo.

The problem are not the racial passives. The problem are the players, and yu won't change that by removing racial passives. If you do that, they will find other ways to be total tools. (Like, we've seen quite a few "I've been kicked for low CP" threads where "low" was way over 160.)

Other things can be changed. CP, gear, skills, etc. No, people won’t ever stop being tools, but racial passives are the only thing that people cannot modify after character creation. Removing them would help by eliminating that element of the almighty meta. Any other aspect of a build can be adapted except that. They need to go because they’re too restrictive thanks to power gamer stupidity.

Racial passives are fine for single player games. They’re not good for multiplayer games - anything that might affect combat effectiveness in ESO that can’t be changed after character creation shouldn’t be a factor and should probably go.

Difference caused by racial passives is negligible compared to difference caused by personal skills. If you are putting together team to top leaderboards you probably should care about it, otherwise it does not matter at all.

Well, yeah. Except they shouldn’t even factor into topping the leaderboards. Those passives are so negligible that they’re borderline worthless, but dweebs with delusions of grandeur and lemming style need to follow whatever YouTubers proclaim to be BiS meta uber-leet builds insist on trying to boot other players from other types of group content over these negligible passives. It’s silly, dumb, and obnoxious.

Make racial choices a purely aesthetic choice and be done with it. Remove that one point of contention and make things just a little more fluid for grouping purposes. The rest can stay.

karekiz

red_emu wrote: »

There is a big difference between ignoring BiS builds and healing with a bow

Did I just hear tank 3 DPS group with vigor?

Inarre

Any player who kicks before even fighting anything in the dungeon should not be PUGing dungeons.

Just my two cents.

I would love it if ZOS implemented an instant kick for the person who initiates vote kick in a dungeon before a mob has been aggroed, and make sure they get the queue timer. If they are going to waste everyone else's time they should be ready to sacrifice their own.

Nifty2g

ArchMikem wrote: »

I'm pretty sure i was booted from my pug solely due to my Khajiit committing the crime of holding a staff, because there's no other logical reason i can think of other than the other DPS looking at me and going "oh great its a mag cat he can't do anything".

The PSA is classes can be played just fine on ANY Race, no matter the content. My Khajiit just so happens to hold several vet trial titles as a MagSorc as a testament to that. So please when you see a High Elf Stamblade or a Nord Magplar or a Khajiit Magsorc, just give them a chance and see what happens. No one wants to be thrown from the dungeon without a word.

Maybe accept that there are people who care and then there are people like you who don't care all that much about BiS builds etc.

And then see each others point of view and perspective and then you can come to conclusion that coming on the forums complaining will do nothing to anyone. You're not a fit for their group and they probably don't want to play with you and you likely don't want to be friends with them.

So if players have different needs and wants what is the issue why can't you just move on to a different group that is more to your liking

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

would not listen to them, most have no idea how to do builds, they just follow cookie cutter builds, my healer and tank builds are non meta and don't use trad sets, i do have peeps have a go who dont run dungeons with and peeps who know me just say run the dungeon, then u will see and i soon get a soz, my healer for example does not wear trad sets but pumps out up 300k hps and can do up to 30k dps and no one dies, after the lastest update, peeps who cant look after there own builds, and rely on other peeps builds should no longer be playing the game, ie: again my healers mag regen is just short of 5k fully buffed

mocap

same story with my s&b/ice destro tank. Though i got it once, probably same as OP.
So if you saw just one toxic player, this is not the reason go to forum and complain about it, imo.

DuskMarine

mocap wrote: »

same story with my s&b/ice destro tank. Though i got it once, probably same as OP.
So if you saw just one toxic player, this is not the reason go to forum and complain about it, imo.

frost tanks are fairly funny to watch in dungeons but will make you cringe in trials though.

DenMoria

The META is God. The META is your ruler. The META control the game. The META... should drop dead.

LioraValkyrie

Background passives would make for a much more flexible and lore-appropriate experience in my opinion, and do away with these silly judgements based on race alone. They could make race offer only the basic flavour passive, e.g. swim speed, reduced fall damage, whilst the others which have an effect on combat effectiveness are chosen separately at character creation. For example:

Khajiit -> Outlaw: in your younger years, you spent much time cavorting in back alleys and associating with thieves and cutthroats. As a result, you are more nimble, stealthy and able to land critical blows.

Altmer -> Apprentice: in your younger years, you spent much of your time studying the arcane arts and often kept the company of mages. As a result, your reserves of magicka have become larger and replenish themselves more quickly.

... And so on, and so forth. But you could also have a Khajiit Apprentice and an Altmer Outlaw, allowing either race to perform optimally in magicka or stamina roles whilst adding an extra dimension of RP immersiveness. Seems like a win/win to me.

bloodthirstyvampire

Was it a pathetic mortal that kicked you, or are you the mortal if so I can see why, mortals are only good for livestock and nothing more.

Shantu

End the BiS Discrimination? This is just plain silly. As long as you have human beings making judgments toward your net value, you're going to experience discrimination. Either live with it or stop using PUG's and find a good guild. These PUG rants accomplish nothing.

DenMoria

And there's the rub. Always has to be a "Human Being" some stupid, unevolved ape is going to make the "decision", some knuckle dragging Cretan is going to make the "decision".
https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.EGWvvq1g5b9u7seoNPkjqAHaFj&w=278&h=205&c=7&o=5&pid=1.7
Then Tamriel will the paradise we Altmer, Bosmer, and Dunmer know it can be. Okay... the Orsimer can stay too. Good for fighting. And the Khajiit are good for rugs and sugar. And the Argonians... okay... what are Argonians good for again? Slave labor?

Shantu wrote: »

End the BiS Discrimination? This is just plain silly. As long as you have human beings making judgments toward your net value, you're going to experience discrimination. Either live with it or stop using PUG's and find a good guild. These PUG rants accomplish nothing.

Asardes

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

People in PuGs rarely manage to pull 20K DPS ST. In that range racial passives, CP allocation and consumable used make literally no difference. Yea, a Khajiit Magicka player won't do more than let's say 32K DPS while a High Elf will manage 37K with same gear, rotation, CP but unless talking about trial score board runs that won't matter either.

To kick players before you actually see them play, based on race or CP is downright dumb. I've seen plenty high CP players with theoretically BiS race struggling to clear normal dungeons or even overland trash mobs (I can one-shot those with a LA in most cases). So I rest my case.

Ppl in pugs often pull low 20s, I generally kick about dd in the bottom quartile, so i know. And I guess op was kicked for being way below average.

That's quite optimistic. I did PuG some dungeons on normal to fill the gaps in some sets I had. I queued as Tank/DD or Healer/DD and ran Inner Rage on my bar. My average DPS was 30-35K while holding aggro and block casting some skills. According to CM addon I was doing around 60% of group DPS in most cases. That means that the other 3 players pulled 20-30K together. And 2 of them had queued as DDs. So those people were 8-10K on average.

And I've went as high as 85%. Surprisingly they weren't lowbies. In that particular run 2 of the other players were CP 200-350 and the 3rd was slightly under 50. Those people didn't even pull 5K, about as much as I pull on my trial tank with Cinder Storm, Choking Talons, and Pierce Armor & Heroic Slash w HA weave.

P.S. I once got kicked out of a group because I was "ruining the experience"

Beardimus

ArchMikem wrote: »

I'm pretty sure i was booted from my pug solely due to my Khajiit committing the crime of holding a staff, because there's no other logical reason i can think of other than the other DPS looking at me and going "oh great its a mag cat he can't do anything".

The PSA is classes can be played just fine on ANY Race, no matter the content. My Khajiit just so happens to hold several vet trial titles as a MagSorc as a testament to that. So please when you see a High Elf Stamblade or a Nord Magplar or a Khajiit Magsorc, just give them a chance and see what happens. No one wants to be thrown from the dungeon without a word.

Go PvP, everyone is chilled, run what ya brung.

Trials crews are cold as ice.

KraziJoe

Or you came in complaining you had no food and your gear was all broken.
Or you queued as a healer
or a tank
Or they were in a guild and a friend wanted to join...

Kalante

BiS could had ended but ZOS decided to revert the proposed buffs to the mundus stone changes in horns of the reach patch. It was looking extremely promising but then they said " OH NO!, we can not have a good game with choices that will affect our race change crown store printing press, lets not buff them, revert the changes and then nerf them even more" the build diversity that could of had happened was insane and it was something everyone wanted to try but instead it got worse than already was. All i gotta say is that zos since then have been nothing but trolls and everything they say i take it with a grain of salt.

Nyladreas

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

First pull will generally tell the tale.

If people are not interested in giving that opportunity before making a decision, the weakness is on their end, not yours.

If gear and race were not such a large factor in builds, this would be less of an issue.

What?! This is NOT an issue from how the game works, for F's sake. The only problem is PEOPLE who have issues in real life and can't open their minds to other possibilities.

People who need that ingame ego more than oxygen. That's the problem. It's NOT the game's design. It's ALWAYS JUST AND ONLY the people who play it.

SquareSausage

From most people's experience of pugging if they see a DD khajit with a stave it's an indicator that they don't know much about the game and therefor will not be any good. It's rare to see a decent player in this set up so I'm not surprised a vote kick was initiated.

Cloudless

jaschacasadiob16_ESO wrote: »

So many times I've met ridicolous DPS who claimed they had Alcast's build, just like that makes them great all by itself.

People have no idea what they are doing and blindly follow what Alcast or Deltia say (just to mention a couple). Just look at the psychocis for th eAdvancing Yokeda set. Suddenly everyone wanna go HR and TFS/VO are sheet.

Magsorc Khajiit? Not BiS. Permaban. That's what you get to play with that kind of people.

So much of all of this.

Vahrokh

I could understand (not too much) if this had been a DLC vet trial.

But 4 men! Non DLC ones can be actually soloed!

Anyway, if you are given the chance, drop them 40k DPS on your "anomaly race" character, while they struggle doing 20k on their min maxed, fully golded gear Altmer with Alcast build. This usually humbles them to silence.

LiquidPony

Beardimus wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

I'm pretty sure i was booted from my pug solely due to my Khajiit committing the crime of holding a staff, because there's no other logical reason i can think of other than the other DPS looking at me and going "oh great its a mag cat he can't do anything".

The PSA is classes can be played just fine on ANY Race, no matter the content. My Khajiit just so happens to hold several vet trial titles as a MagSorc as a testament to that. So please when you see a High Elf Stamblade or a Nord Magplar or a Khajiit Magsorc, just give them a chance and see what happens. No one wants to be thrown from the dungeon without a word.

Go PvP, everyone is chilled, run what ya brung.

Trials crews are cold as ice.

Funny how everyone has different experiences.

I only PvP casually, so when I PvP (whether that's Cyrodiil or IC or BGs), I PUG. And by far the most toxicity I've encountered in ESO is in PvP. I've never had anyone insult me with racial epithets, or claim to have fornicated with my mother, or make statements about my sexual preferences in a PvE group.

But of course I PvE with my friends and guildmates, and I PvP with randoms, so that's kind of what I expect. If it were the other way 'round, I'd probably expect to encounter more nonsense in PvE.

JumpmanLane

Darkstorne wrote: »

And this rep for dungeon groups is precisely why, at almost 300CP, I still haven't tried running a single dungeon. I enjoy weird builds too much, hate the idea of playing builds that are "so hot right now", and threads like this make me cringe at the thought of bringing my MagWarden DPS or StamWarden healer, both wielding 2H main bar and bow back bar, into even a normal mode dungeon...

Just run dungeons especially vet with your friends. Only pug to pick up enough people to actually get a random que then kick the random lil extra puggy immediately. Your life will go smoother lol.

LeagueTroll

Asardes wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

People in PuGs rarely manage to pull 20K DPS ST. In that range racial passives, CP allocation and consumable used make literally no difference. Yea, a Khajiit Magicka player won't do more than let's say 32K DPS while a High Elf will manage 37K with same gear, rotation, CP but unless talking about trial score board runs that won't matter either.

To kick players before you actually see them play, based on race or CP is downright dumb. I've seen plenty high CP players with theoretically BiS race struggling to clear normal dungeons or even overland trash mobs (I can one-shot those with a LA in most cases). So I rest my case.

Ppl in pugs often pull low 20s, I generally kick about dd in the bottom quartile, so i know. And I guess op was kicked for being way below average.

That's quite optimistic. I did PuG some dungeons on normal to fill the gaps in some sets I had. I queued as Tank/DD or Healer/DD and ran Inner Rage on my bar. My average DPS was 30-35K while holding aggro and block casting some skills. According to CM addon I was doing around 60% of group DPS in most cases. That means that the other 3 players pulled 20-30K together. And 2 of them had queued as DDs. So those people were 8-10K on average.

And I've went as high as 85%. Surprisingly they weren't lowbies. In that particular run 2 of the other players were CP 200-350 and the 3rd was slightly under 50. Those people didn't even pull 5K, about as much as I pull on my trial tank with Cinder Storm, Choking Talons, and Pierce Armor & Heroic Slash w HA weave.

P.S. I once got kicked out of a group because I was "ruining the experience"

Oh ofc the average of ppl que normal is lower. My exp 2/3 to 3/4 dd who que vet is 20k+, I generally just vote kick ppl below that.