End the BiS Discrimination

ArchMikem

I'm pretty sure i was booted from my pug solely due to my Khajiit committing the crime of holding a staff, because there's no other logical reason i can think of other than the other DPS looking at me and going "oh great its a mag cat he can't do anything".

The PSA is classes can be played just fine on ANY Race, no matter the content. My Khajiit just so happens to hold several vet trial titles as a MagSorc as a testament to that. So please when you see a High Elf Stamblade or a Nord Magplar or a Khajiit Magsorc, just give them a chance and see what happens. No one wants to be thrown from the dungeon without a word.

starkerealm

Yeah. Part of the reason why I don't like going into random vets... and when I do I'm pretty cagey about my builds.

It's also more significant than that, because at some tiers you'll see players spouting off garbage like, "this class can't be used," or "you can't use stam builds in that fight."

Ugh.

Darkstorne

And this rep for dungeon groups is precisely why, at almost 300CP, I still haven't tried running a single dungeon. I enjoy weird builds too much, hate the idea of playing builds that are "so hot right now", and threads like this make me cringe at the thought of bringing my MagWarden DPS or StamWarden healer, both wielding 2H main bar and bow back bar, into even a normal mode dungeon...

Sparr0w

Bet they got a BiS chaser pulling 5k dps in return #Karma

Merlin13KAGL

First pull will generally tell the tale.

If people are not interested in giving that opportunity before making a decision, the weakness is on their end, not yours.

If gear and race were not such a large factor in builds, this would be less of an issue.

Vapirko

Darkstorne wrote: »

And this rep for dungeon groups is precisely why, at almost 300CP, I still haven't tried running a single dungeon. I enjoy weird builds too much, hate the idea of playing builds that are "so hot right now", and threads like this make me cringe at the thought of bringing my MagWarden DPS or StamWarden healer, both wielding 2H main bar and bow back bar, into even a normal mode dungeon...

I mean you can still use a variety of sets and races and achieve decent to good dps numbers or be able to heal or tank. You won't be part of any progression guilds but thats fine. However, you have to at least adhere to some of the rules if you want to be effective. You simply can't be an effective stam healer with a 2h and bow. In the end there are just some basic ground rules that you have to follow, and honestly I don't think you can really have any kind of structure or balance in the game without that. If you tank you need a taunt which means ice staff or really preferably sword and shield at least on one bar. If you heal you need to have a resto staff on one bar and enough magicka and the correct stats to keep your team mates alive which means light armor and speccing most of your point into magicka. And if you want to dps you can do so on a mag warden, but using a 2h and a bow leaves you very few magicka based aoe and you cant use any of the weapon skills because they won't scale off of magicka or spell damage. Additionally most of the weapon line passives won't benefit you in anyway. So yes you can play however you want, but its probably a smart idea to stay out of dungeons unless you're willing to adhere to some of the rules needed to be effective in your role, or you have your own group of like minded players.

Thalmor-Nordmaster

ArchMikem does your Khajiit have a bounty? Solid, Striped or Spotted Coat? Could it be allergies? Catphobia?Fleas?Maybe they are superstitious.

Asardes

People in PuGs rarely manage to pull 20K DPS ST. In that range racial passives, CP allocation and consumable used make literally no difference. Yea, a Khajiit Magicka player won't do more than let's say 32K DPS while a High Elf will manage 37K with same gear, rotation, CP but unless talking about trial score board runs that won't matter either.

To kick players before you actually see them play, based on race or CP is downright dumb. I've seen plenty high CP players with theoretically BiS race struggling to clear normal dungeons or even overland trash mobs (I can one-shot those with a LA in most cases). So I rest my case.

HappyLittleTree

Run whatever you like as long as it perform decent.
I appreciate people in my group that run different builds as long as it is build for the role you queue for

starkerealm

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If gear and race were not such a large factor in builds, this would be less of an issue.

If builds were borderline relevant to participation in endgame content, this might bit might have more weight.

A player who knows what they're doing, and understands how to put a build together will fare far better than some random that wandered onto a build site, and came away with the idea that Acuity/Sorrow was the way to go without even learning a rotation.

starkerealm

Thalmor-Nordmaster wrote: »

ArchMikem does your Khajiit have a bounty?

Darkstorne

Vapirko wrote: »

However, you have to at least adhere to some of the rules if you want to be effective. You simply can't be an effective stam healer with a 2h and bow.

That's exactly the attitude that keeps me out of dungeons

You can! I based it on this build, which the guy used to successfully heal trials with. The bow works insanely well with Green Lotus because of it's fast light attack speed, and the range keeps you out of harm's way. The 2H bar is mostly for solo play, but I'd use it to keep minor heroism up where I can too for more Healing Thicket uptime. Though I'm sure I might be asked to swap the 2H bar out for a Destro staff exclusively for Elemental Drain, which would probably be fair.

starkerealm

Darkstorne wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

However, you have to at least adhere to some of the rules if you want to be effective. You simply can't be an effective stam healer with a 2h and bow.

That's exactly the attitude that keeps me out of dungeons

You can! I based it on this build, which the guy used to successfully heal trials with. The bow works insanely well with Green Lotus because of it's fast light attack speed, and the range keeps you out of harm's way. The 2H bar is mostly for solo play, but I'd use it to keep minor heroism up where I can too for more Healing Thicket uptime. Though I'm sure I might be asked to swap the 2H bar out for a Destro staff exclusively for Elemental Drain, which would probably be fair.

Yeah, I've said it before, but Warden Stam Healers are a thing. I do prefer that build to the one I was rocking. Might have to dig up the PA pieces, but, that's snazzy.

red_emu

There is a big difference between ignoring BiS builds and healing with a bow

Merlin13KAGL

starkerealm wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

If gear and race were not such a large factor in builds, this would be less of an issue.

If builds were borderline relevant to participation in endgame content, this might bit might have more weight.

A player who knows what they're doing, and understands how to put a build together will fare far better than some random that wandered onto a build site, and came away with the idea that Acuity/Sorrow was the way to go without even learning a rotation.

Agree. I'm not saying you should be able to throw whatever you want on a build and expect to be even half as effective as a well thought out and understood build. (The last part being why a lot of the cookie cutter builds don't fare half as well as they do in the original hands that made them.)

Player skill is still the biggest factor, but some don't take the time to gauge that part.

Without knowing the specific content involved, we're all guessing.

Ragged_Claw

It's this sort of attitude that makes a game stale and monotonous. Also I think some players believe if they slap on the FoM set and follow an online guide they'll be a top-class player. None of that takes into account experience in the game, knowledge of mechanics, team-work etc. I enjoyed the dungeon event so much because everyone was using their bank and low level characters with crappy gear and no real builds, not once did we fail a dungeon and we had a right laugh. Players like these suck all the fun out of the game, to kick a cat just because it has a staff shows an overall ignorance of the game, skills and builds. Miserable sods.

Darkstorne

red_emu wrote: »

There is a big difference between ignoring BiS builds and healing with a bow

There is! And yet healing with a bow is also completely legit if built right, to the point it's viable in trials. And that's why this game has such a huge issue with people judging builds instantly based on race and equipped weapon. This isn't World of Warcraft. It's ESO. Almost anything can work in this game.

If you're the kind of player who builds BiS classes, you're not playing the game "wrong" but you're definitely missing out on what makes this game unique. There's rarely a wrong way to play at all. We just need players to stop pretending there is.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

So many times I've met ridicolous DPS who claimed they had Alcast's build, just like that makes them great all by itself.

People have no idea what they are doing and blindly follow what Alcast or Deltia say (just to mention a couple). Just look at the psychocis for th eAdvancing Yokeda set. Suddenly everyone wanna go HR and TFS/VO are sheet.

Magsorc Khajiit? Not BiS. Permaban. That's what you get to play with that kind of people.

srfrogg23

Racial passives are the only element of a build that can’t be changed after character creation. The fact that spreadsheet toting power gamers use that to boot people from groups is enough to warrant the removal of racial passives, imo.

Those passives should not ever be factored into the “meta” or be considered “BiS”, the game isn’t balanced around those passives, but lo and behold, people latch onto them like they can actually make or break a build. It’s silly.

I say get rid of racial passives altogether. They’re such a minuscule part of a build and the only thing they seem to accomplish is fueling stupid ideas about funneling people into specific play styles in group play.

Quite frankly, racial passives do too much harm to the “play as you want” philosophy of the game because players just aren’t responsible enough to play nice with each other when dealing with an element of a build that is locked in after character creation.

griffkhalifa

Darkstorne wrote: »

And this rep for dungeon groups is precisely why, at almost 300CP, I still haven't tried running a single dungeon. I enjoy weird builds too much, hate the idea of playing builds that are "so hot right now", and threads like this make me cringe at the thought of bringing my MagWarden DPS or StamWarden healer, both wielding 2H main bar and bow back bar, into even a normal mode dungeon...

Your chances of getting kicked from a normal mode dungeon are pretty slim...it's the Vet dungeons where the toxicity usually comes out.

LeagueTroll

Asardes wrote: »

People in PuGs rarely manage to pull 20K DPS ST. In that range racial passives, CP allocation and consumable used make literally no difference. Yea, a Khajiit Magicka player won't do more than let's say 32K DPS while a High Elf will manage 37K with same gear, rotation, CP but unless talking about trial score board runs that won't matter either.

To kick players before you actually see them play, based on race or CP is downright dumb. I've seen plenty high CP players with theoretically BiS race struggling to clear normal dungeons or even overland trash mobs (I can one-shot those with a LA in most cases). So I rest my case.

Ppl in pugs often pull low 20s, I generally kick about dd in the bottom quartile, so i know. And I guess op was kicked for being way below average.

Kuramas9tails

@ArchMikem Totally agree. I have BIS gear and my boyfriend could have what is not considered BIS and he could out DPS me because he simply understands the method to the madness. I call it that because he knows the mathematic bullcrap behind the scenes of each and every skill and passive. He can calculate what your max mag, stam, and health, spell damage, weapon damage, ect. would be with any build before it's complete. Plus he has his animation canceling and rotation down. But he's been looked at weird in trials recently because he is on a MagDen which he can hit 40K+ DPS. Not sure why people are iffy about MagDens.

I have learned not to judge a book by their cover. I am 100% certain my boyfriend could run a mageblade khajiit and have a tighter rotation and higher dps than me as a high elf mageblade. It's not just the build, it's the player.

Cpt_Teemo

They jealous of the kitty

Mondini

I'd agree, you can run nearly any build as long as the player isn't ***. Although the problem comes from most players just being ***.

Darkstorne wrote: »

That's exactly the attitude that keeps me out of dungeons

You can!

Perhaps you keep getting kicked because the healing is slacking. Just because they can doesn't mean you can hmmmk

zaria

griffkhalifa wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

And this rep for dungeon groups is precisely why, at almost 300CP, I still haven't tried running a single dungeon. I enjoy weird builds too much, hate the idea of playing builds that are "so hot right now", and threads like this make me cringe at the thought of bringing my MagWarden DPS or StamWarden healer, both wielding 2H main bar and bow back bar, into even a normal mode dungeon...

Your chances of getting kicked from a normal mode dungeon are pretty slim...it's the Vet dungeons where the toxicity usually comes out.

True normal are easy.
, on the other hand I have never I have never ran into "racism" in the game non seen it used against other in group.
Mostly heal has an templar and sorc healer both khajiits.
Note that this includes groups wiping over and over then fall apart.

And the classes are worthless stuff is forum only, in game its player skill who matter as here dps can be between 5 and +40k

Thorstienn

Darkstorne wrote: »

And this rep for dungeon groups is precisely why, at almost 300CP, I still haven't tried running a single dungeon. I enjoy weird builds too much, hate the idea of playing builds that are "so hot right now", and threads like this make me cringe at the thought of bringing my MagWarden DPS or StamWarden healer, both wielding 2H main bar and bow back bar, into even a normal mode dungeon...

Don't be afraid. Get in there (more so BEFORE you get too high CP). What OP describes is not the norm from my experience.
I have been kicked once before the 1st mob pull; asked why, they said they were a group of 3 friends that just wanted the XP bonus, and I was on a HE Magsorc.
Meanwhile I have run my SnB DPS, my Bow/bow DPS, my Ice Staff tank etc. through all (character dependent) Vet dungeons, and 90%through group finder (I play at irregular times for my guild).
Also I have never witnessed someone get kicked for race or weapons, before at least 2 group wipes. Only seen low CP "asked" if we can kick them for Vet DLC: though now they don't show up.
99/100 do your role, and dungeons will be fine.
If you're PC-NA shoot me a mail and I'll take you through some to get feel for it.

Enslaved

Nord magplar? Well, it can be some sort of a tank I guess.

Varana

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Racial passives are the only element of a build that can’t be changed after character creation. The fact that spreadsheet toting power gamers use that to boot people from groups is enough to warrant the removal of racial passives, imo.

The problem are not the racial passives. The problem are the players, and yu won't change that by removing racial passives. If you do that, they will find other ways to be total tools. (Like, we've seen quite a few "I've been kicked for low CP" threads where "low" was way over 160.)

Soella

Darkstorne wrote: »

You can! I based it on this build, which the guy used to successfully heal trials with. The bow works insanely well with Green Lotus because of it's fast light attack speed, and the range keeps you out of harm's way. The 2H bar is mostly for solo play, but I'd use it to keep minor heroism up where I can too for more Healing Thicket uptime. Though I'm sure I might be asked to swap the 2H bar out for a Destro staff exclusively for Elemental Drain, which would probably be fair.

Interesting. But keep in mind, that build was most probably tested in guild runs, where all players know what they do. Healer in pugs should be able to deal with higher amount of heal needed plus most probably need more burst healing which your build is not good for. So - yeah, I would be glad to give it a try for friend, but spend time wiping in simple pug pledge - very different story. Find a guild - it is a solid base for all experiments.

srfrogg23

Varana wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Racial passives are the only element of a build that can’t be changed after character creation. The fact that spreadsheet toting power gamers use that to boot people from groups is enough to warrant the removal of racial passives, imo.

The problem are not the racial passives. The problem are the players, and yu won't change that by removing racial passives. If you do that, they will find other ways to be total tools. (Like, we've seen quite a few "I've been kicked for low CP" threads where "low" was way over 160.)

Other things can be changed. CP, gear, skills, etc. No, people won’t ever stop being tools, but racial passives are the only thing that people cannot modify after character creation. Removing them would help by eliminating that element of the almighty meta. Any other aspect of a build can be adapted except that. They need to go because they’re too restrictive thanks to power gamer stupidity.

Racial passives are fine for single player games. They’re not good for multiplayer games - anything that might affect combat effectiveness in ESO that can’t be changed after character creation shouldn’t be a factor and should probably go.

Royaji

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Varana wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Racial passives are the only element of a build that can’t be changed after character creation. The fact that spreadsheet toting power gamers use that to boot people from groups is enough to warrant the removal of racial passives, imo.

The problem are not the racial passives. The problem are the players, and yu won't change that by removing racial passives. If you do that, they will find other ways to be total tools. (Like, we've seen quite a few "I've been kicked for low CP" threads where "low" was way over 160.)

Other things can be changed. CP, gear, skills, etc. No, people won’t ever stop being tools, but racial passives are the only thing that people cannot modify after character creation. Removing them would help by eliminating that element of the almighty meta. Any other aspect of a build can be adapted except that. They need to go because they’re too restrictive thanks to power gamer stupidity.

Racial passives are fine for single player games. They’re not good for multiplayer games - anything that might affect combat effectiveness in ESO that can’t be changed after character creation shouldn’t be a factor and should probably go.

Actually there is another thing people can't modify after character creation screen. Classes. Should we also get rid of those?