A comprehensive guide on damage dealing in Elder Scrolls Online

Masel

myskyrim26 wrote: »

I've got 2 thoughts now...
1. This is an amazing guide. Thank you ever so much! At last I truly understand a lot of spects!
2. This game is a total crap in terms of combat. Games are made for fun, not for a damn scientific research.

Well I work as a ecomonical scientist at a university, so the game is what we make of it

myskyrim26

Masel wrote: »

myskyrim26 wrote: »

I've got 2 thoughts now...
1. This is an amazing guide. Thank you ever so much! At last I truly understand a lot of spects!
2. This game is a total crap in terms of combat. Games are made for fun, not for a damn scientific research.

Well I work as a ecomonical scientist at a university, so the game is what we make of it

So you have fun than! Great that it is both fun for you ans so useful for all us!

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Masel wrote: »

myskyrim26 wrote: »

I've got 2 thoughts now...
1. This is an amazing guide. Thank you ever so much! At last I truly understand a lot of spects!
2. This game is a total crap in terms of combat. Games are made for fun, not for a damn scientific research.

Well I work as a ecomonical scientist at a university, so the game is what we make of it

i really want to thank you for your hard work here, so much good, well researched and sourced material, in an easy to understand format, bravo.

Solinur

Thx @Masel. Great work, as always.

Temeraire507

Thanks, keep up the great work @Masel but have you considered that all of the regeneration buffs might be a bit stronger than they look like on paper due to the fact that most players are going to use potions, CP, armor passives and class passives to increase them further while the altmer, argonian, orc and redguard sustain passives don't benefit from those at all? It would make the race for the best race even closer, wouldn't it? In case of bosmer vs. redguard, bosmer might actually be the better choice in some cases due to that

Masel

Temeraire507 wrote: »

Thanks, keep up the great work @Masel but have you considered that all of the regeneration buffs might be a bit stronger than they look like on paper due to the fact that most players are going to use potions, CP, armor passives and class passives to increase them further while the altmer, argonian, orc and redguard sustain passives don't benefit from those at all? It would make the race for the best race even closer, wouldn't it? In case of bosmer vs. redguard, bosmer might actually be the better choice in some cases due to that

Yes, that is why people generally underestimate bosmer. Recovery is a stat that is boosted a LOT.

Skullstachio

Masel wrote: »

Temeraire507 wrote: »

Thanks, keep up the great work @Masel but have you considered that all of the regeneration buffs might be a bit stronger than they look like on paper due to the fact that most players are going to use potions, CP, armor passives and class passives to increase them further while the altmer, argonian, orc and redguard sustain passives don't benefit from those at all? It would make the race for the best race even closer, wouldn't it? In case of bosmer vs. redguard, bosmer might actually be the better choice in some cases due to that

Yes, that is why people generally underestimate bosmer. Recovery is a stat that is boosted a LOT.

Really, each race is designed not only to fulfill some form of hybridability when choosing a specific class (what with the upcoming racial improvements) but to be able to provide a unique playstyle that is complimented by the chosen class as well as provide a unique flavour of lore not seen when playing through with another.

Davadin

so, uh... as StamDK, with Spriggan and a 7th legion and a 2H Nirnhoned MACE, I'm around 14% penetration already....

....what happen if i use Oblivion damage? I'm currently using the Wep damage enchant which procs fairly often?

Ciovala

Great post, shame it isn’t stickied.

rothtwinsdad

Awesome job !! Thank you for the time and effort involved in sharing this.

Masel

Updated a few sections to clarify additional things, notably cp interactions and why defensive fps are stronger than their offensive counterparts l.

Solinur

Masel wrote: »

The damage they would do against you would be 120% is you had 0% less damage taken. However, since the game calculates damage taken after damage done, it yields 120%*80%=96% instesd of 100%.

I'm certainly nitpicking here, but the reason why this is smaller than 100% is not because of the calculation order but the fact that this is done multiplicatively instead of additively:

• 100% + x - x= 100%
• (100% + x) * (100% - x) = (100% - x^2)

Masel

Solinur wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

The damage they would do against you would be 120% is you had 0% less damage taken. However, since the game calculates damage taken after damage done, it yields 120%*80%=96% instesd of 100%.

I'm certainly nitpicking here, but the reason why this is smaller than 100% is not because of the calculation order but the fact that this is done multiplicatively instead of additively:

• 100% + x - x= 100%
• (100% + x) * (100% - x) = (100% - x^2)

Yeah I noticed it after I posted it, it is simple commutative multiplication.

linoge63

This has to be the best guide I have read in all of gaming (and beyond) and there's many great gems out there.

Thanks!!

Gilvoth

.

Malkaran

First, thank you for the guide this is some great info! So recently I have been trying to compare, on paper, a set that offers penetration (spinners) vs. sets that offer magicka and/or spell damage. I have been playing around with UESP calculator and as I was studying the formulas on there and my subsequent google search lead me to your guide. Anyway, read through it and in section "3.1.1. Set comparison" you mentioned you pulled your numbers out of the combat metrics addon, to plug in there. So my question is, is there a way I can get a ball park comparison, on paper, of a set with penetration vs a set that offers magicka and'or spell damage without having to physically test it?

EDIT: So reread everything again and I guess I am getting lost between the mitigation formula and how that factored in to your numbers in the "3.1.1. Set comparison" section. So say for example, you want to compare that set scenario I posted above, on paper, and get a ball park number on which will give you more damage in non cp campaign/bg. What resistance number are you using for the enemy player? And also what resistance number is UESP using in their "Effective Spell Power" category?

KillahBrew

Are you certain your diminishing returns may is correct at the beginning?
I may not have Done my math right, please look it over.
You say that approximately that the increase from 3000 to 3250 is 8.33 percent.
But my likely flawed math returned 17.2 percent increase.
I realize I might look dumb here but I had to ask.
Is that correct?

Also, I was looking at status effects from PvE mobs and I noticed no till to for some of them. For instance, "Laceration" not the skill, but the effect that pops up on your character that looks like a blue square in is corner, red blood dripping with blood.
Thanks

BlackMadara

Malkaran wrote: »

First, thank you for the guide this is some great info! So recently I have been trying to compare, on paper, a set that offers penetration (spinners) vs. sets that offer magicka and/or spell damage. I have been playing around with UESP calculator and as I was studying the formulas on there and my subsequent google search lead me to your guide. Anyway, read through it and in section "3.1.1. Set comparison" you mentioned you pulled your numbers out of the combat metrics addon, to plug in there. So my question is, is there a way I can get a ball park comparison, on paper, of a set with penetration vs a set that offers magicka and'or spell damage without having to physically test it?

EDIT: So reread everything again and I guess I am getting lost between the mitigation formula and how that factored in to your numbers in the "3.1.1. Set comparison" section. So say for example, you want to compare that set scenario I posted above, on paper, and get a ball park number on which will give you more damage in non cp campaign/bg. What resistance number are you using for the enemy player? And also what resistance number is UESP using in their "Effective Spell Power" category?

I made a calculator in excel that uses the skill coefficients of spells, stats, damage buffs and target resistance stats and buffs to compare for my mDK. I plug in stats shown through the build editor and have formulas in place for a theoretical combo to compare. I do this with a estimated resistances of classic LA, MA, and HA builds.

For you Effective Spell Power question, on the General Tab in the build editor, you will see a "target" section at the bottom with a resistance field. This is set at 18200 by default. EFP is calculated with that and the other defensive bonuses that can be inputted in mind

thomas1970b16_ESO

KillahBrew wrote: »

Are you certain your diminishing returns may is correct at the beginning?
I may not have Done my math right, please look it over.
You say that approximately that the increase from 3000 to 3250 is 8.33 percent.
But my likely flawed math returned 17.2 percent increase.
I realize I might look dumb here but I had to ask.
Is that correct?

Also, I was looking at status effects from PvE mobs and I noticed no till to for some of them. For instance, "Laceration" not the skill, but the effect that pops up on your character that looks like a blue square in is corner, red blood dripping with blood.
Thanks

250/3000=0,0833333..... etc

A_Divine_Sin

Hixtory wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

As far as I know, secondary status effects were removed in Dragon Bones patch. In order to proc these, you would have to deal damage against target that is weak to a specific type of damage. In this case, Deep Freeze, requires the enemy to be weak against Frost damage, meaning they have to have 0 resistance against Frost.

With the removal of Weaknesses and Immunity against certain types of damage, secondary effects should be removed too.

Feel free to correct me ^^

Yeah that's true. I haven't seen any vulnerability effects since then.

I saw your post about stamina sets. What amazes me is that hunding come in top of sets like relequen meaning that if I have the normal version of relequen I would be losing dps.

I apologize in advance, but maybe you already did it:

As you mentioned advancing yokeda coming in top, is Levi a loss of more than 3%


Advancing

(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(3 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage

(4 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(5 items) When you deal melee damage, your Critical Strike rating is increased by 400 for 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times.

3660 weap crit+129 weap damage

Leviathan

(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Stamina

(3 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(4 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical

(5 items) Adds 1924 Weapon Critical


3590 Weap crit + 1096 Stamina (roughly 110 weap damage if I recall correctly). Also, you can easily get levi daggers that can make up for the crit loss. Although HRC is not hard to run, the farm is insane, I spent about a year to get 2 VO daggers, and that was running AA, SO and HRC

Any thoughts?

While flat out loss to dps is only minor what this test misses out is "prok control" as a example on prok sets you gain the buff and keep it even if you switch to a bar without 5 peices of the set equipped, which you cant do with non prok sets like hundings rage, so for example levi + reli will underperform compared to advancing + reli + maelstrom bow as you gain crit through prok and keep the bonus crit on the back (bow) bar which does more damage as its the maelstrom bow

Bobby_V_Rockit

Is there any point where weapon damage equates to physical penetration? For example choosing between the Warrior and the Lover. With Lover my, my wd is 3060 but pen is 6.5k, with Warrior my wd is 3450 but pen is 2.4k, is there a point of equilibrium I’m not seeing?

Gnortranermara

@Masel , if you are able, could you please update the Oblivion enchant damage section with the new mechanics? I'm trying to figure out a few things like what effect Infused and Torug's have on them now.

ola.wilhelmssonb16_ESO

@Masel : Great piece of research, thank you. Unfortunately, it's a bit too comprehensive for my intellectual capacity. (I have ADD and numbers are my weak spot.)

I play mostly pvp and I am searching for a decent balance between max magicka/stamina, spell/weapon damage and penetration. If someone could post a rough summary on that, or a link to a calculator of some sort, I would be grateful. I am basically looking for something like "Damage Dealing in ESO for dummies, abbreviated edition". It does not have to be super accurate, just some rough guide lines regarding scaling and diminishing returns.

The following may be a little too specific for this thread, and if so I apologize:
My main source of inspiration for pvp-builds is Dottzgaming, although I don't follow their builds blindly. In many of their builds they seem very keen on stacking spell or weapon damage, at the expense of resource regeneration and max magicka/stamina. Why is that? They quite often recommend sets that proc weapon damage in their stamina builds, for instance. Is Warrior's Fury and Seventh Legion really that good in pvp? (My main issue with Warrior's Fury is that you have to take and survive 20 hits in just under a 100 seconds to reap it's full 5 piece benefit. For 10 measly seconds. Wouldn't a heavy version of Hunding's Rage work almost as well?)

aetherial_heavenn

Thank you so much for this thread. I send guildies here when they want to understand a bit more about why things work, rather than following blindly the latest 'go-to' build.

Understanding this stuff lets us compensate for lag and high ping, arthritis and other issues that make doing an Alcast type perfect LA weave every .6 /sec rotation impossible.

I built a one bar sorc for dps using this knowledge which can get 40k plus without having to LA weave perfectly if you have decent ping and a good steady rotation. So it's adequate for most vet trials. In my case, with no LA weaving and 400 plus ping and aged fingers i can still get 25k on a bad day, without suffering pain...which is more than enough for most content I want to dps in. (I main healers for a reason ).

I wish they would consolidate quality posts like yours @Masel and @paulsimonps https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1 in a special section. Or sticky/pin them

LuckyLuke

aetherial_heavenn wrote: »

I wish they would consolidate quality posts like yours @Masel and @paulsimonps https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-15-07-2019/p1 in a special section. Or sticky/pin them

You can bookmark these type of threads on your forum profile to help you find them again, and to see if there has been any recent activity to catch-up on.

Having them pinned somewhere suitable within the forum categories would also be of great benefit.

tsaescishoeshiner

ola.wilhelmssonb16_ESO wrote: »

@Masel : Great piece of research, thank you. Unfortunately, it's a bit too comprehensive for my intellectual capacity. (I have ADD and numbers are my weak spot.)

I play mostly pvp and I am searching for a decent balance between max magicka/stamina, spell/weapon damage and penetration. If someone could post a rough summary on that, or a link to a calculator of some sort, I would be grateful. I am basically looking for something like "Damage Dealing in ESO for dummies, abbreviated edition". It does not have to be super accurate, just some rough guide lines regarding scaling and diminishing returns.

The following may be a little too specific for this thread, and if so I apologize:
My main source of inspiration for pvp-builds is Dottzgaming, although I don't follow their builds blindly. In many of their builds they seem very keen on stacking spell or weapon damage, at the expense of resource regeneration and max magicka/stamina. Why is that? They quite often recommend sets that proc weapon damage in their stamina builds, for instance. Is Warrior's Fury and Seventh Legion really that good in pvp? (My main issue with Warrior's Fury is that you have to take and survive 20 hits in just under a 100 seconds to reap it's full 5 piece benefit. For 10 measly seconds. Wouldn't a heavy version of Hunding's Rage work almost as well?)

The plain answer is that there are sets that proc extra spell/weapon damage, but none that proc extra stamina or magicka.

Sets that "proc" stat bonuses for a certain period of time typically give higher temporary bonuses than sets that give bonuses all the time. Burst damage is important for PvP

Warrior's Fury can proc every 0.5 seconds, so it only takes minimum of 10 seconds to wind up. The 600 weapon damage (with 20% extra from Major Brutality, 720) is higher than a flat value set like Hunding's (299). Heavy Hunding's is a fine way to learn PvP, but there are other options. Medium Fortified Brass will also give good defense, but probably more total weapon damage than Heavy Hunding's because of the +15% weapon damage from the final medium armor passive

Raideen

Thank you for this guide. Learned some stuff. Its a shame it's not stickied.

Thank you for all your hard work.

Masel

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

@Masel , if you are able, could you please update the Oblivion enchant damage section with the new mechanics? I'm trying to figure out a few things like what effect Infused and Torug's have on them now.

Will do!

Masel

Updated with a new sustain section and renewed oblivion damage section, as well as the status effect section. Also updated the damage taken section to account for the new stagger debuff and major vulnerability.

Ek1

Awesome break down of the formulas. Dozen or so typos that could be fixed but solid math. Great post.

Masel wrote: »

4. Armor Penetration and Mitigation

Then we have the target's resistance, which is 18200 in PvE for all veteran content mobs and target dummies. In PvP, it depends on how much spell or physical resistance your target has. Then we deduct all the debuffs the target has on it. There are multiple debuffs that apply to this category, such as major and minor fracture or breach (5280 and 1320, respectively), the 5- piece of roar of alkosh (3010) and the crusher weapon enchantment (which is amplifiable with torug's pact and infused and yields 1622, 2108 and 2741, respectively).

Mind clearing up this section that what all benefits everyone in the team (armor reductions) and what only benefit you (penetration). To my understanding its only three that benefit whole group, both fractures and crushing (boosted or not).

Masel wrote: »

3.1. So when do they get applied?

Based what i read, having that oh so popular destro staff as back bar for tank does not really help with the crushing uptime nor trying to keep up two weapon enhancement effects. Did I understand right?