Low Pop Bonus? Vivec PC NA

zyk

Elong wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zyk, you've admitted yourself in many posts that you don't play often or group often these days, yet you post a lot on here as some sort of AD figurehead. I think you're very out of touch and giving a very poor reflection on what actually occurs in this game anymore.

No, I post as someone who knows the history of PC NA and who has an opinion. It's pretty obvious that a *significant* competitive imbalance continues to exist.

What exactly am I failing to describe accurately?

Last week there was a time just after prime time where EP had 2 bars to AD and DC's 3 bars. We pushed past Ales and Alessia.

If a competition imbalance exists, perhaps try to get your faction's level to our ability. Some of us, players like Xylena, Agrippa, Frozn amongst others, have worked bloody hard at getting our faction to where it is.

You're failing to describe where the issue really is and how to address it. Look at your own ranks, and fix it.

No, actually, I'm describing the problem exactly as it is. While others are focusing on population, I am saying it has more to to with the overall aptitude of the players. You basically just confirmed what I've been saying.

While you want to paint an idealistic picture about why it is the way it is, the fact is, as others have noted in this thread, there are a huge number of ex-AD playing for strong EP groups. This has been a problem for a very long time.

This is reflected directly in the GvG and small scale scenes in which AD has a minuscule presence. In these communities, everyone knows AD territory is where you go to farm casuals.

The problem isn't that AD hasn't developed good players. It's RNG. I would guess all three factions have developed approximately the same number of bad, mediocre, decent and good players. The problem lies in where those decent and good players currently choose to play.

Elong

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zyk, you've admitted yourself in many posts that you don't play often or group often these days, yet you post a lot on here as some sort of AD figurehead. I think you're very out of touch and giving a very poor reflection on what actually occurs in this game anymore.

No, I post as someone who knows the history of PC NA and who has an opinion. It's pretty obvious that a *significant* competitive imbalance continues to exist.

What exactly am I failing to describe accurately?

Last week there was a time just after prime time where EP had 2 bars to AD and DC's 3 bars. We pushed past Ales and Alessia.

If a competition imbalance exists, perhaps try to get your faction's level to our ability. Some of us, players like Xylena, Agrippa, Frozn amongst others, have worked bloody hard at getting our faction to where it is.

You're failing to describe where the issue really is and how to address it. Look at your own ranks, and fix it.

No, actually, I'm describing the problem exactly as it is. While others are focusing on population, I am saying it has more to to with the aptitude of the players. While you want to paint an idealistic picture about why it is the way it is, the fact is, as others have noted in this thread, there are a huge number of ex-AD playing for strong EP guilds. This has been a problem for a very long time.

This is reflected directly in the GvG and small scale scenes in which AD has a minuscule presence. In these communities, everyone knows AD is where you go to farm casuals.

The problem isn't that AD hasn't developed good players. It's RNG. I would guess all three factions have developed approximately the same number of bad, mediocre, decent and good players. The problem lies in where those decent and good players currently choose to play.

There's just nothing correct about any of this. I don't even see that many ex AD players in my faction. In fact, quite a few of ours have gone to AD! With Ni moving over too, the population isn't the issue. The quality isn't an issue as I have stated man for man there is no quality difference between all 3 factions.

It's ATTITUDE. And a post like this which basically laments everything but doesn't try to fix the issue cements this attitude. Get out there and help fix it.

Kartalin

Meanwhile we had multiple (3+) AD pugs giving us hate because we dared to run an organized group and happen to be waiting for our group to assemble on the bridge before moving forward. Never mind the significant role we played in keeping EP from pushing across that bridge. How fitting that they lost control of it when we weren’t there and started crying for help. Still no acknowledgement by the pugs.

Elong

Kartalin wrote: »

Meanwhile we had multiple (3+) AD pugs giving us hate because we dared to run an organized group and happen to be waiting for our group to assemble on the bridge before moving forward. Never mind the significant role we played in keeping EP from pushing across that bridge. How fitting that they lost control of it when we weren’t there and started crying for help. Still no acknowledgement by the pugs.

See, this is the example of toxicity I'm talking about. Pugs need your help, and they need to listen. I wish your faction well, because it is better for the map if you're competitive.

zyk

Elong wrote: »

There's just nothing correct about any of this. I don't even see that many ex AD players in my faction. In fact, quite a few of ours have gone to AD! With Ni moving over too, the population isn't the issue. The quality isn't an issue as I have stated man for man there is no quality difference between all 3 factions.

It's ATTITUDE. And a post like this which basically laments everything but doesn't try to fix the issue cements this attitude. Get out there and help fix it.

Sure, attitude of individuals plays a large factor in what determines the kind of gamer someone is. It's not everything though, and it's completely unrealistic to change the collective or individual attitudes of what is essentially a random group of people. In part, what AD needs is players with better attitudes to switch over. That's included with overall aptitude.

If you don't see the ex-AD running with EP, you have either deluded yourself, aren't paying attention or you just don't remember. I'm not the only one who has noted it. If all the players who started with AD and are currently playing with EP switched back to AD, I think that would solve many of the competitive balance issues noted in this thread.

But please, continue with the populist platitudes. With only better ATTITUDES, we can MAKE CYRODIIL GREAT AGAIN!

Vilestride

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

There's just nothing correct about any of this. I don't even see that many ex AD players in my faction. In fact, quite a few of ours have gone to AD! With Ni moving over too, the population isn't the issue. The quality isn't an issue as I have stated man for man there is no quality difference between all 3 factions.

It's ATTITUDE. And a post like this which basically laments everything but doesn't try to fix the issue cements this attitude. Get out there and help fix it.

Sure, attitude of individuals plays a large factor in what determines the kind of gamer someone is. It's not everything though, and it's completely unrealistic to change the collective or individual attitudes of what is essentially a random group of people. In part, what AD needs is players with better attitudes to switch over. That's included with overall aptitude.

If you don't see the ex-AD running with EP, you have either deluded yourself, aren't paying attention or you just don't remember. I'm not the only one who has noted it. If all the players who started with AD and are currently playing with EP switched back to AD, I think that would solve many of the competitive balance issues noted in this thread.

But please, continue with the populist platitudes. With only better ATTITUDES, we can MAKE CYRODIIL GREAT AGAIN!

Well no you can't just put this responsibility on the players. The AD faction as a whole has a responsibility to create environments that these top tier players would want to be in, with regard to any goup size.

I can only speak from my own experience so i will. You noted before how many ex AD players Drac has and you are correct. Infact, we recently just gained another. But this is no wrong doing of any of these players. AD, as a whole, simply failed to provide them with the kind of gameplay they want. That is your factions responsibility, not individuals. I will use elongs analogy. If madrid is an appealing team for a player to aspire playing with, a player is not in the wrong for going to play with them. It is the responsibility of the opponents to step up. Nothing else.

GlorphNoldorin

Elong, I mean no disrespect, but this is a very simplistic point of view.

You cant really say that pvp is a growth industry. There isn't a lot of new blood, new players. If you were a new player which faction would you choose?

For the most part, pvp'ers have been playing for some time. Some swap factions but alot are one faction for life. In reality it is a fixed and dwindling pool of players. The games many short comings have a part to play. The other factor is why play on the side that is getting faction stacked and gated? (in off peak I saw this alot last campaign) Many are leaving to EP or taking a break or for good.

In a way you are right, who can blame people for being fair weathered?
Also point taken as well that people have to step up and try and make guilds, lead the pugs , educate. Sadly I dont see any will in DC for this to happen.

However, and I tried to hint at this in posts several campaigns ago, there are deep rooted problems that are affecting the health/competitiveness of Vivec NA.

EP will dominate but who will you dominate, when many like me, have had enough of pvp?

PenguinInACan

Vilestride wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

There's just nothing correct about any of this. I don't even see that many ex AD players in my faction. In fact, quite a few of ours have gone to AD! With Ni moving over too, the population isn't the issue. The quality isn't an issue as I have stated man for man there is no quality difference between all 3 factions.

It's ATTITUDE. And a post like this which basically laments everything but doesn't try to fix the issue cements this attitude. Get out there and help fix it.

Sure, attitude of individuals plays a large factor in what determines the kind of gamer someone is. It's not everything though, and it's completely unrealistic to change the collective or individual attitudes of what is essentially a random group of people. In part, what AD needs is players with better attitudes to switch over. That's included with overall aptitude.

If you don't see the ex-AD running with EP, you have either deluded yourself, aren't paying attention or you just don't remember. I'm not the only one who has noted it. If all the players who started with AD and are currently playing with EP switched back to AD, I think that would solve many of the competitive balance issues noted in this thread.

But please, continue with the populist platitudes. With only better ATTITUDES, we can MAKE CYRODIIL GREAT AGAIN!

Well no you can't just this responsibility on the players. The AD faction as a whole has a responsibility to create environments that these top teir players would want to be in, with regard to any geoup size.

I can only speak from my own experience so i will. You noted before how many ex AD players Drac has and you are correct. Infact, we recently just gained another. But this is no wrong doing of any of these players. AD, as a whole, simple failed to provide them with the kind of gameplay they want. That is your factions responsibility, not individuals. I will use elongs analogy. If madrid is an appealing team for a player to aspire playing with, a player is not in the wrong for going to play with them. It is the responsibility of the opponents to step up. Nothing else.

AD has been attempting to "step up" for awhile now. I don't see these ex AD players hopping back to their homes. AD is the convenient faction. Convenient to farm and convenient to play on when their EP raids are done. The population is way too small to try and argue competitive rosters. It's not a "madrid is appealing" analogy. It's a "madrid is the only team in the league" analogy. Now other teams are working their way around the league but nobody wants to take a chance on going back because we just don't have enough people running around Cyro to shuffle players like that anymore.

zyk

Vilestride wrote: »

Well no you can't just this responsibility on the players. The AD faction as a whole has a responsibility to create environments that these top teir players would want to be in, with regard to any geoup size.

I can only speak from my own experience so i will. You noted before how many ex AD players Drac has and you are correct. Infact, we recently just gained another. But this is no wrong doing of any of these players. AD, as a whole, simple failed to provide them with the kind of gameplay they want. That is your factions responsibility, not individuals. I will use elongs analogy. If madrid is an appealing team for a player to aspire playing with, a player is not in the wrong for going to play with them. It is the responsibility of the opponents to step up. Nothing else.

Thank you for recognizing that the team players choose to play on is a key issue. I am sure you also recognize it goes far beyond Drac.

Who is this AD you speak of? AD isn't a sentient entity of any kind. It's not a collective. AD is the name of a team. AD can't make itself more or less appealing because it doesn't have that capability. No faction does. AD doesn't have an owner that can hire a new general manager who can hire a new coach and sign better players.

I have noted many times that the ultimate problem is that EP is the most attractive destination for competitive-minded players -- and even casuals who can't stand losing. Again, we basically agree here.

AD isn't unattractive because of a fault inherent to the faction. It's just the way the game evolved socially based on countless factors like who became friends, who became enemies, who quit and who stayed.

An example of this is when the EU players in Drac arrived to NA. They decided to play on EP, in part I think, because EP needed help at the time.

What responsibility do we have as players to correct the current imbalance? We have total responsibility because we can reasonably presume ZOS will not provide a solution. If we don't fix it, then who will?

It's also not realistic to expect an attractive community for competitive gamers to spontaneously develop on its own on AD. if it was a growing game, this could happen, but it seems in decline. Sure, you could look at me or another AD and ask why we don't do it. Well, like I said before, the factors that shape us as players go far beyond than the game itself. Without going into detail, I am not able to do that. It can be also be presumed no one on AD currently has both the ability and inclination to do so.

I think we basically agree on most points, but we disagree about how it can be solved. I don't think a hero is going to rise from AD's ranks to light our darkest hour. I think it is far beyond the ability of one player or guild to do at this point.

I think the current competitive dynamic hurts the game and makes it worse for all of us. I think it's accelerating it's decline. If left unabated, the cycle will continue to cause many competitive AD to either quit or join EP. Eventually, there will be no good fights left to be had.

So I would say everyone who has the ability to look past their individual self-interest and who can see the larger picture, such as yourself, needs to try their best to correct it or the downward spiral will likely continue until eventually there isn't a game worth playing left. From an AD POV, we might be there now.

kpittsniperb14_ESO

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

So far I believe DC is the only faction to have recieved Low population bonus on Vivec? Kinda says enough to me that AD doesn't really struggle so much.

I think if you are unhappy with your factions results (as @Agrippa_Invisus commented 2 of your faction's guilds were at bleakers) you should start with your own guilds contribution. Some of your guild members were at bleakers instead of defending the map too.

The majority of the time most of AD can be found pushing either in a straight line to BRK or to Ash.

The guilds which push backline keeps for AD are normally the ones who leave straight away afterwards. AD doesn't spread out and defend keeps often. Either they will be there in force or not at all.

I understand you are frustrated but its much more beneficial to actually make a difference and improve this problem in game then it is to come and complain about players supposedly preventing you from getting a low pop bonus by playing PVP for your faction.

GlorphNoldorin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

What AD and DC needs is to git gud and stop relying on numbers to overcome their opponents, sad truth.

You and your mentality is at the root of the problem. EP stacks guilds (VV PM Kush) in prime time and runs around as a faction stack. Until guilds come on, nothing about 'get gud' will counter this. When DC and AD guilds come on, for a period, Prime time is relatively even fought.

EP already has a guild advantage. DC guilds are leaving either temporarily or permanently. Add to that a population imbalance through out all of the off peak day. Can you seriously just say "get good.' The score reflects this. 8k win and 11k to third in last campaign. It will be much the same this campaign.

The scroll score has made the scoring worse but what you are seeing is AD and DC losing population as they get tired of a) the lag bugs and general performance {emp keep takes are one of the worst performance sin this game)
and b) getting out numbered, faction stacked, for large portions of the day.

Where are these AD and DC going? Maybe to EP given the pop difference or just out of pvp until something changes.

I believe what Frozn is referring to is the fact that DC is in need of more guilds which can go and engage large amounts of players and split them up at backline keeps being hardcore enough to hold them there for long enough for an effective push. Where as AD need to spread out more when their guilds are doing so to maximise their effectiveness.

Have you played daytime early/late afternoon NA lately? 3-4 bars EP running around against 1-2 bars of DC/AD swarming the map and taking everything in sight like locusts while gaining a massive campaign lead....which is what this thread is about. It's a shame that the pvp population is in such an unhealthy state that it cannot even support 1 competitive campaign anymore. When was the last time any faction won this campaign (Vivec, Thornblade, Wabba) by such a huge margin? Given this, is it really that surprising that organized AD groups aren't really playing the map anymore and are just looking for fights?

Pchela

IA was MIA today when we awaited their normal pvdoor of back keeps. That really threw the map for a loop lol

Elong

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

There's just nothing correct about any of this. I don't even see that many ex AD players in my faction. In fact, quite a few of ours have gone to AD! With Ni moving over too, the population isn't the issue. The quality isn't an issue as I have stated man for man there is no quality difference between all 3 factions.

It's ATTITUDE. And a post like this which basically laments everything but doesn't try to fix the issue cements this attitude. Get out there and help fix it.

Sure, attitude of individuals plays a large factor in what determines the kind of gamer someone is. It's not everything though, and it's completely unrealistic to change the collective or individual attitudes of what is essentially a random group of people. In part, what AD needs is players with better attitudes to switch over. That's included with overall aptitude.

If you don't see the ex-AD running with EP, you have either deluded yourself, aren't paying attention or you just don't remember. I'm not the only one who has noted it. If all the players who started with AD and are currently playing with EP switched back to AD, I think that would solve many of the competitive balance issues noted in this thread.

But please, continue with the populist platitudes. With only better ATTITUDES, we can MAKE CYRODIIL GREAT AGAIN!

I've noticed many players playing many factions. I've also noted many AD loyalists who play year after year. They should step up.

I'm not really going to reply any further if you're going to use rhetoric from that badly haired orange man. You can make it better for yourselves by starting to work harder for your faction and stop asking for hand outs and help. Instead of crying about losing a couple of skilled players, and not having the leadership, Why don't you fill the void Zyk? Instead of all the pointing and yelling, Why don't YOU do something?

TheNorthernDragon

Elong wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

What AD and DC needs is to git gud and stop relying on numbers to overcome their opponents, sad truth.

He's right. I'm sorry, but he's right.

You can't keep blaming your own faction's failings on our superiority.

We have good pugs, good veteran players who tell people to go to the right places at the right time, faction pride, a unified faction and an ability to work together.

Our playerbase is no more skilled than the others. We simply want to win. The other faction's play the "we don't play the map" card, because they can't beat us.

Real Madrid have won the Champions League 3 times in a row. Are they destroying football? Are they hell. It's up to the other teams to compete.

^^^ This.

Elong

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

There's just nothing correct about any of this. I don't even see that many ex AD players in my faction. In fact, quite a few of ours have gone to AD! With Ni moving over too, the population isn't the issue. The quality isn't an issue as I have stated man for man there is no quality difference between all 3 factions.

It's ATTITUDE. And a post like this which basically laments everything but doesn't try to fix the issue cements this attitude. Get out there and help fix it.

Sure, attitude of individuals plays a large factor in what determines the kind of gamer someone is. It's not everything though, and it's completely unrealistic to change the collective or individual attitudes of what is essentially a random group of people. In part, what AD needs is players with better attitudes to switch over. That's included with overall aptitude.

If you don't see the ex-AD running with EP, you have either deluded yourself, aren't paying attention or you just don't remember. I'm not the only one who has noted it. If all the players who started with AD and are currently playing with EP switched back to AD, I think that would solve many of the competitive balance issues noted in this thread.

But please, continue with the populist platitudes. With only better ATTITUDES, we can MAKE CYRODIIL GREAT AGAIN!

Well no you can't just this responsibility on the players. The AD faction as a whole has a responsibility to create environments that these top teir players would want to be in, with regard to any geoup size.

I can only speak from my own experience so i will. You noted before how many ex AD players Drac has and you are correct. Infact, we recently just gained another. But this is no wrong doing of any of these players. AD, as a whole, simple failed to provide them with the kind of gameplay they want. That is your factions responsibility, not individuals. I will use elongs analogy. If madrid is an appealing team for a player to aspire playing with, a player is not in the wrong for going to play with them. It is the responsibility of the opponents to step up. Nothing else.

AD has been attempting to "step up" for awhile now. I don't see these ex AD players hopping back to their homes. AD is the convenient faction. Convenient to farm and convenient to play on when their EP raids are done. The population is way too small to try and argue competitive rosters. It's not a "madrid is appealing" analogy. It's a "madrid is the only team in the league" analogy. Now other teams are working their way around the league but nobody wants to take a chance on going back because we just don't have enough people running around Cyro to shuffle players like that anymore.

Madrid is the only team in the league. 3 consecutive champ league victories (sorry for the football metaphors, it's world cup time yo!!!) . EP have only won the last 2 camps. And yet, football is well and truly alive. It's not an exact comparison so forgive me but the analogy shows that there are peaks and troughs and it will turn again through EPs laziness and AD and DC getting better. Is that EPs issue to address? No!

zyk

Elong wrote: »

I'm not really going to reply any further if you're going to use rhetoric from that badly haired orange man. You can make it better for yourselves by starting to work harder for your faction and stop asking for hand outs and help. Instead of crying about losing a couple of skilled players, and not having the leadership, Why don't you fill the void Zyk? Instead of all the pointing and yelling, Why don't YOU do something?

Yelling? I don't see how you can get that from my posts. I'm articulating the issue. It cannot be solved if it is not discussed. Look at your own post in the quoted text. It is you who is submitting simplifications akin to MAGA. "AD just needs a kick in the a ss!"

Why don't I do anything about it? I've touched on that already. Did you actually read my posts before disagreeing with me? That would not surprise me. As I said, who we are as players is shaped by factors that go far beyond the game. I did everything I am able to do by sticking with AD. I could have chosen to take the easy way out as easily as anyone else when I first recognized the issue over a year ago.

It goes far beyond a couple of skilled players. Furthermore, I am not only talking about skilled players. It is also mediocre players who have chosen to leave AD.

What you're suggesting is that the Brooklyn Nets could have competed with the Golden State Warriors for the NBA title with only a better attitude which is a simplistic pipe dream.

But these aren't professional sports teams. No one person is responsible for AD, DC or EP except Brian Wheeler. Vivec is a public server and most players have the ability to play for whichever faction they prefer because it is so easy to level characters. We are essentially a giant pick-up game in which a disproportionate number of the most capable players have chosen to play primarily on one team.

Regardless of who started where and what the true root of the issue is, it's clear a competitive disparity exists and is growing. ZOS will not solve it. If it is to be solved, only we as a community can do so through our individual choices.

So again I say, I think more strong small and medium scale players who consider themselves to skilled should come fight for AD. Not to benefit AD directly and definitely not for my benefit, but for the sake of the game and actually good fights.

Agrippa_Invisus

Here's that screenshot I mentioned. This was not even 1am, so not even into night cap territory. Only a touch beyond prime time.

SirDopey

But in all seriousness, didn't AD win the campaign before last?

Dreyloch

Just tossing in here the false similarities of Pro sports teams (at least in the U.S.)

Many championship teams lose players over salary caps by the next season. Some are lost in drafts because of free agency or trades. Sometimes a whole team moves to a different city!

Problem here is, there are no over-arching systems in this game to spread the love around like real Pro sports.There are no contracts binding players to any faction or guild. So the Madrid comparison falls a bit short. Soccer as a league won't allow them to be champs forever.But then again, I live in the U.S. where we really could care less about any sport unless there's bodies being thrown at each other rofl. (aka U.S. football and Hockey) So I don't know how Soccer works in this regard.

I know it might seem derailing, but I think we can see the imagery/comparisons here clear enough?

Elong

Dreyloch wrote: »

Just tossing in here the false similarities of Pro sports teams (at least in the U.S.)

Many championship teams lose players over salary caps by the next season. Some are lost in drafts because of free agency or trades. Sometimes a whole team moves to a different city!

Problem here is, there are no over-arching systems in this game to spread the love around like real Pro sports.There are no contracts binding players to any faction or guild. So the Madrid comparison falls a bit short. Soccer as a league won't allow them to be champs forever.But then again, I live in the U.S. where we really could care less about any sport unless there's bodies being thrown at each other rofl. (aka U.S. football and Hockey) So I don't know how Soccer works in this regard.

I know it might seem derailing, but I think we can see the imagery/comparisons here clear enough?

The main point I was alluding to was that because one team is currently strong doesn't mean they stay strong forever. (It's football not soccer by the way!!! XD )

So far tonight, it looks like AD and DC have upped their game, hopefully it continues!

Gprime31

Cause we #1 deal with it

Ghostbane

Vilestride

zyk wrote: »

Who is this AD you speak of? AD isn't a sentient entity of any kind. It's not a collective. AD is the name of a team. AD can't make itself more or less appealing because it doesn't have that capability. No faction does. AD doesn't have an owner that can hire a new general manager who can hire a new coach and sign better players.

I have noted many times that the ultimate problem is that EP is the most attractive destination for competitive-minded players -- and even casuals who can't stand losing. Again, we basically agree here.

AD isn't unattractive because of a fault inherent to the faction. It's just the way the game evolved socially based on countless factors like who became friends, who became enemies, who quit and who stayed.

Yes, it is a collective, it's exactly that. AD IS its major guilds, its active and prominent players, its loud voices (on the forums and in game). AD is you, the OP, Iskra, Fantasia, Omni, DiG, Ruin, DomK so on so forth. As is the same for the other factions.

zyk wrote: »

What responsibility do we have as players to correct the current imbalance? We have total responsibility because we can reasonably presume ZOS will not provide a solution. If we don't fix it, then who will?

No, players, by definition, have 0 responsibility here because we have no duty to, nor control over other players. The only party here that does have responsibility is ZoS. Is it reasonable to presume they will provide a solution? No, you're right, we can derive this from past action (or lack of). Is it reasonable to have expected them to? yes, because it's part of the service we pay for. The distinction is subtle but it's there.

Look man, I agree with everything I read from you about what a truly competitive environment would/should look like but at this point in the games lifespan if you or the OP wanna talk about competitive imbalance we have to apply some reality and manage some expectations.

Let's take this thread for example, The OP is someone who is openly transparent about how casual their guild and gameplay is, how they're not looking or pretending to be a top guild ect ect, and yet, then comes in here as if surprised that his faction is noncompetitive.....it begs the question, well what do you expect?

I'm going to be really blunt here so sorry in advance but if you have a faction where the majority (not all) of the prominent guilds don't take themselves seriously you are obviously going to have an environment that will haemorrhage it's best players.
People can enjoy this game however they want, like I said about 0 responsibility, but no one get's to be complacent in their mediocrity and then complain about competitive imbalance without looking a little silly.

I'm sorry but I gotta agree with the general consensus here in that the current campaign blow-outs are primarily due to population levels, particularly during the off-peak hours. Implementing a system that mitigates the effect of a faction simply outnumbering another is something that should be done. Second to this if AD wants to talk about competitive campaigns it needs to get competitive.
My advise would be, be more like DC. DC currently has only 2 major guilds in Vivec both of whom are relatively new (compared to the rest of us), and both are actively trying to improve, and it shows. For starters they acknowledge that they aren't at the level they want to be. Then, rather than actively and repeatedly accusing the guilds that beat them day to day of cheating, they approach them respectfully and ask for advice and some help (which in turn is gladly given. I know Omni have worked with them, we've worked with them and I am sure there are others to.)

The result of this? I can guarantee you if this game is still being played by anyone 6 months from now these guilds will be up there with the best of them and that DC will be a faction that competent players want to migrate to (ohh and I have no doubt their 'discord guild theory crafting discussion : Making complaint threads on the forums' ratio is a bit healthier to :P). If DC can manage all this whilst having waaaaaay less organised presence than AD then I am sure with the right motivation and self-analysis AD can dig themselves out of their hole. Hell they might even convince a few players they're worth playing for again.

Rin_Senya

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you played daytime early/late afternoon NA lately? 3-4 bars EP running around against 1-2 bars of DC/AD swarming the map and taking everything in sight like locusts while gaining a massive campaign lead....which is what this thread is about. It's a shame that the pvp population is in such an unhealthy state that it cannot even support 1 competitive campaign anymore. When was the last time any faction won this campaign (Vivec, Thornblade, Wabba) by such a huge margin? Given this, is it really that surprising that organized AD groups aren't really playing the map anymore and are just looking for fights?

Well to be fair in the situation that Agrippa brought up (Bleakers last night) these AD guilds that were farming DC and EP pugs could have EASILY defended at least 1 side of the map and saved one of the scrolls especially with the help of their AD pugs.
At the time there were no DC guilds running, only pug groups. During the times you mention there isn’t much competition whatsoever and AD have at least 2 (now when Venatus are playing even 3) late night/aussie guilds/groups so it shouldn't be a problem at all to defend against 'pug zergs'. Organized groups will always be > than pug zergs if done right.

PenguinInACan

Rin_Senya wrote: »

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you played daytime early/late afternoon NA lately? 3-4 bars EP running around against 1-2 bars of DC/AD swarming the map and taking everything in sight like locusts while gaining a massive campaign lead....which is what this thread is about. It's a shame that the pvp population is in such an unhealthy state that it cannot even support 1 competitive campaign anymore. When was the last time any faction won this campaign (Vivec, Thornblade, Wabba) by such a huge margin? Given this, is it really that surprising that organized AD groups aren't really playing the map anymore and are just looking for fights?

Well to be fair in the situation that Agrippa brought up (Bleakers last night) these AD guilds that were farming DC and EP pugs could have EASILY defended at least 1 side of the map and saved one of the scrolls especially with the help of their AD pugs.
At the time there were no DC guilds running, only pug groups. During the times you mention there isn’t much competition whatsoever and AD have at least 2 (now when Venatus are playing even 3) late night/aussie guilds/groups so it shouldn't be a problem at all to defend against 'pug zergs'. Organized groups will always be > than pug zergs if done right.

The "bleakers situation" is a pretty bad example of AD's "late night" guild presence. There were probably two 8-12 man guild groups and a bunch of solos that stayed at bleakers. I was in one of the groups that was there when the farming was getting started and we left after seeing EP and DC start ignoring each other and pushing south. leaving 16-24 people (when we left) up north fighting however many EP/DC stayed. One 11 man group is not going to be able to defend against the "pug zerg" that was running south that night. I don't care who you are, 11 people (with 5-8 pugs/VD procs) vs 30-40 people (50% of which are fresh off of guild raids) and scattershot stacks isn't going to work. All of this happened in less than 20 minutes.

If you know of a way to fight 11v30 in the current meta please share. I would love to see some footage of complete keep defenses in under 12 man raids/hear some tips on how to counter 10 time stops and 5 scattershot stacks with a limited comp/not stacking with 20 pugs or another guild and not defaulting to retreating to a resource to camp/string out to attempt to farm AP while losing the keep.

Rin_Senya

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you played daytime early/late afternoon NA lately? 3-4 bars EP running around against 1-2 bars of DC/AD swarming the map and taking everything in sight like locusts while gaining a massive campaign lead....which is what this thread is about. It's a shame that the pvp population is in such an unhealthy state that it cannot even support 1 competitive campaign anymore. When was the last time any faction won this campaign (Vivec, Thornblade, Wabba) by such a huge margin? Given this, is it really that surprising that organized AD groups aren't really playing the map anymore and are just looking for fights?

Well to be fair in the situation that Agrippa brought up (Bleakers last night) these AD guilds that were farming DC and EP pugs could have EASILY defended at least 1 side of the map and saved one of the scrolls especially with the help of their AD pugs.
At the time there were no DC guilds running, only pug groups. During the times you mention there isn’t much competition whatsoever and AD have at least 2 (now when Venatus are playing even 3) late night/aussie guilds/groups so it shouldn't be a problem at all to defend against 'pug zergs'. Organized groups will always be > than pug zergs if done right.

The "bleakers situation" is a pretty bad example of AD's "late night" guild presence. There were probably two 8-12 man guild groups and a bunch of solos that stayed at bleakers. I was in one of the groups that was there when the farming was getting started and we left after seeing EP and DC start ignoring each other and pushing south. leaving 16-24 people (when we left) up north fighting however many EP/DC stayed. One 11 man group is not going to be able to defend against the "pug zerg" that was running south that night. I don't care who you are, 11 people (with 5-8 pugs/VD procs) vs 30-40 people (50% of which are fresh off of guild raids) and scattershot stacks isn't going to work. All of this happened in less than 20 minutes.

If you know of a way to fight 11v30 in the current meta please share. I would love to see some footage of complete keep defenses in under 12 man raids/hear some tips on how to counter 10 time stops and 5 scattershot stacks with a limited comp/not stacking with 20 pugs or another guild and not defaulting to retreating to a resource to camp/string out to attempt to farm AP while losing the keep.

Defending is by far easier than attacking. Enemies self funnel into a choke point allowing you to hit them at their weakest whilst under friendly siege. Its a perfect situation.
Scattershots and meatbags can be used not just by enemy factions.. and timestops are easily counterable.
Also pugs only proc VD on you if you stay in them. In a keep defense they normally stay upstairs so it isn't really a problem.

I guess the point is that whilst you were at bleakers (using your numbers) there were around 30+ AD there 2 of which were groups. You said that EP had 30-40. Seems like even numbers taking into account that the majority of those AD were in organised groups.

I haven't got clips from this patch because both my guilds haven't started to upload yet (but we will).
This was made a month ago: https://youtu.be/H_Gq8RClMEc

I was playing in a 10 man literally last night during primetime (EU) and it was completely fine fighting zergs as we would normally do (away from our faction btw). All it requires is the right group comp and leader and its not really a problem to fight those numbers of pugs. Especially in defense situations. Sieging and taking a keep with all the counter siege is really difficult currently.

PenguinInACan

Rin_Senya wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you played daytime early/late afternoon NA lately? 3-4 bars EP running around against 1-2 bars of DC/AD swarming the map and taking everything in sight like locusts while gaining a massive campaign lead....which is what this thread is about. It's a shame that the pvp population is in such an unhealthy state that it cannot even support 1 competitive campaign anymore. When was the last time any faction won this campaign (Vivec, Thornblade, Wabba) by such a huge margin? Given this, is it really that surprising that organized AD groups aren't really playing the map anymore and are just looking for fights?

Well to be fair in the situation that Agrippa brought up (Bleakers last night) these AD guilds that were farming DC and EP pugs could have EASILY defended at least 1 side of the map and saved one of the scrolls especially with the help of their AD pugs.
At the time there were no DC guilds running, only pug groups. During the times you mention there isn’t much competition whatsoever and AD have at least 2 (now when Venatus are playing even 3) late night/aussie guilds/groups so it shouldn't be a problem at all to defend against 'pug zergs'. Organized groups will always be > than pug zergs if done right.

The "bleakers situation" is a pretty bad example of AD's "late night" guild presence. There were probably two 8-12 man guild groups and a bunch of solos that stayed at bleakers. I was in one of the groups that was there when the farming was getting started and we left after seeing EP and DC start ignoring each other and pushing south. leaving 16-24 people (when we left) up north fighting however many EP/DC stayed. One 11 man group is not going to be able to defend against the "pug zerg" that was running south that night. I don't care who you are, 11 people (with 5-8 pugs/VD procs) vs 30-40 people (50% of which are fresh off of guild raids) and scattershot stacks isn't going to work. All of this happened in less than 20 minutes.

If you know of a way to fight 11v30 in the current meta please share. I would love to see some footage of complete keep defenses in under 12 man raids/hear some tips on how to counter 10 time stops and 5 scattershot stacks with a limited comp/not stacking with 20 pugs or another guild and not defaulting to retreating to a resource to camp/string out to attempt to farm AP while losing the keep.

Defending is by far easier than attacking. Enemies self funnel into a choke point allowing you to hit them at their weakest whilst under friendly siege. Its a perfect situation.
Scattershots and meatbags can be used not just by enemy factions.. and timestops are easily counterable.
Also pugs only proc VD on you if you stay in them. In a keep defense they normally stay upstairs so it isn't really a problem.

I guess the point is that whilst you were at bleakers (using your numbers) there were around 30+ AD there 2 of which were groups. You said that EP had 30-40. Seems like even numbers taking into account that the majority of those AD were in organised groups.

I haven't got clips from this patch because both my guilds haven't started to upload yet (but we will).
This was made a month ago: https://youtu.be/H_Gq8RClMEc

I was playing in a 10 man literally last night during primetime (EU) and it was completely fine fighting zergs as we would normally do (away from our faction btw). All it requires is the right group comp and leader and its not really a problem to fight those numbers of pugs. Especially in defense situations. Sieging and taking a keep with all the counter siege is really difficult currently.

First, you don't stay in pugs, pugs stay in you, no matter how hard you try shake them in a keep defense. Second, "easily counter-able" is debatable IMO for time stop unless you have optimal group comp support. Third, I have no idea how many EP/DC the AD at bleakers were fighting, so for all I know the "30+" were holding off 30+ EP/DC.

All of these are great suggestions for general group play but don't answer my actual request.

Without the right group comp, in a keep where you don't want the flags to flip (so no upstairs runs for 20 minutes), fighting 10 (in your example) vs 30, after you set down siege on a breach and they inevitably breach anyway because they have basically unlimited respawns/camps with that many people, in the current meta of siege stacking, against 50% pugs and 50% ungrouped decent PvP-ers, what's the play?

I'm not trying to make excuses for losses here. I'm genuinely asking for advice. And I'm getting a little tired of the responses I've been seeing people give. It's like going to the doctor with a broken leg and saying "doc, my leg is really hurting....I fell off a ladder and I don't know what to do..." and the doc responding with "well, i've never fallen off a ladder and my leg is fine so here's a prescription for arrogance and a sample of ego inflation...i've got plenty to give away"

Vilestride

Rin_Senya wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you played daytime early/late afternoon NA lately? 3-4 bars EP running around against 1-2 bars of DC/AD swarming the map and taking everything in sight like locusts while gaining a massive campaign lead....which is what this thread is about. It's a shame that the pvp population is in such an unhealthy state that it cannot even support 1 competitive campaign anymore. When was the last time any faction won this campaign (Vivec, Thornblade, Wabba) by such a huge margin? Given this, is it really that surprising that organized AD groups aren't really playing the map anymore and are just looking for fights?

Well to be fair in the situation that Agrippa brought up (Bleakers last night) these AD guilds that were farming DC and EP pugs could have EASILY defended at least 1 side of the map and saved one of the scrolls especially with the help of their AD pugs.
At the time there were no DC guilds running, only pug groups. During the times you mention there isn’t much competition whatsoever and AD have at least 2 (now when Venatus are playing even 3) late night/aussie guilds/groups so it shouldn't be a problem at all to defend against 'pug zergs'. Organized groups will always be > than pug zergs if done right.

The "bleakers situation" is a pretty bad example of AD's "late night" guild presence. There were probably two 8-12 man guild groups and a bunch of solos that stayed at bleakers. I was in one of the groups that was there when the farming was getting started and we left after seeing EP and DC start ignoring each other and pushing south. leaving 16-24 people (when we left) up north fighting however many EP/DC stayed. One 11 man group is not going to be able to defend against the "pug zerg" that was running south that night. I don't care who you are, 11 people (with 5-8 pugs/VD procs) vs 30-40 people (50% of which are fresh off of guild raids) and scattershot stacks isn't going to work. All of this happened in less than 20 minutes.

If you know of a way to fight 11v30 in the current meta please share. I would love to see some footage of complete keep defenses in under 12 man raids/hear some tips on how to counter 10 time stops and 5 scattershot stacks with a limited comp/not stacking with 20 pugs or another guild and not defaulting to retreating to a resource to camp/string out to attempt to farm AP while losing the keep.

Defending is by far easier than attacking. Enemies self funnel into a choke point allowing you to hit them at their weakest whilst under friendly siege. Its a perfect situation.
Scattershots and meatbags can be used not just by enemy factions.. and timestops are easily counterable.
Also pugs only proc VD on you if you stay in them. In a keep defense they normally stay upstairs so it isn't really a problem.

I guess the point is that whilst you were at bleakers (using your numbers) there were around 30+ AD there 2 of which were groups. You said that EP had 30-40. Seems like even numbers taking into account that the majority of those AD were in organised groups.

I haven't got clips from this patch because both my guilds haven't started to upload yet (but we will).
This was made a month ago: https://youtu.be/H_Gq8RClMEc

I was playing in a 10 man literally last night during primetime (EU) and it was completely fine fighting zergs as we would normally do (away from our faction btw). All it requires is the right group comp and leader and its not really a problem to fight those numbers of pugs. Especially in defense situations. Sieging and taking a keep with all the counter siege is really difficult currently.

That was quite a farm but there were way too many Argonians for my taste. Other than that it was sick.

barshemm

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Rin_Senya wrote: »

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you played daytime early/late afternoon NA lately? 3-4 bars EP running around against 1-2 bars of DC/AD swarming the map and taking everything in sight like locusts while gaining a massive campaign lead....which is what this thread is about. It's a shame that the pvp population is in such an unhealthy state that it cannot even support 1 competitive campaign anymore. When was the last time any faction won this campaign (Vivec, Thornblade, Wabba) by such a huge margin? Given this, is it really that surprising that organized AD groups aren't really playing the map anymore and are just looking for fights?

Well to be fair in the situation that Agrippa brought up (Bleakers last night) these AD guilds that were farming DC and EP pugs could have EASILY defended at least 1 side of the map and saved one of the scrolls especially with the help of their AD pugs.
At the time there were no DC guilds running, only pug groups. During the times you mention there isn’t much competition whatsoever and AD have at least 2 (now when Venatus are playing even 3) late night/aussie guilds/groups so it shouldn't be a problem at all to defend against 'pug zergs'. Organized groups will always be > than pug zergs if done right.

The "bleakers situation" is a pretty bad example of AD's "late night" guild presence. There were probably two 8-12 man guild groups and a bunch of solos that stayed at bleakers. I was in one of the groups that was there when the farming was getting started and we left after seeing EP and DC start ignoring each other and pushing south. leaving 16-24 people (when we left) up north fighting however many EP/DC stayed. One 11 man group is not going to be able to defend against the "pug zerg" that was running south that night. I don't care who you are, 11 people (with 5-8 pugs/VD procs) vs 30-40 people (50% of which are fresh off of guild raids) and scattershot stacks isn't going to work. All of this happened in less than 20 minutes.

If you know of a way to fight 11v30 in the current meta please share. I would love to see some footage of complete keep defenses in under 12 man raids/hear some tips on how to counter 10 time stops and 5 scattershot stacks with a limited comp/not stacking with 20 pugs or another guild and not defaulting to retreating to a resource to camp/string out to attempt to farm AP while losing the keep.

Can't provide video but keep defense is basically oil over flags. Scattershot at back flag to soak doorway/front flag. You need someone running negate who knows how to use it, meaning not only toss it but streak people in it.

Biggest problems I see with keep defense is usually no defense set up inside or defenders try to rely only on siege. You need a few people on top with siege and the rest of you need to stack the flags and fight.

Also try to have someone who can get out and get camps up. I've seen so many defenses lost that could have been saved with a camp.

barshemm

When I chose to leave DC, I tried AD first.

Overall I found it frustrating because of the lack of communication. I saw few callouts until they we're backed up to tri-keeps. Call outs I made for brindle and nikel we're ignored. I ended up just solo ganking most the time because it seemed that's what everyone was doing there. Any attempts I made to try and get help retaking keeps was met with no response.

Several EP players kept telling me to try EP and I finally did. Zone communication is great. I call out and lots of people show. I ended up joining a guild that runs small man group, half the time spread across the map and yet focuses on objectives and accomplishes them usually because the rest of EP responds when we ask for help.

I will say one problem AD has is the resource farmers. No, not the AD ones doing it, there aren't that many. It's the EP and DC that do it. I'm sorry but farming AD is easy, their best players rarely show up to clean up a tower farm so it's just a stream of pugs. If you guys want a challenge go farm EP/DC.

AD needs those zone generals and it also needs people and guilds willing to listen to them.

Maybe next exp event I will try to level an ad Stam sorc and try again. I also realized I just don't like playing night blade.

frozywozy

Rin_Senya wrote: »

kpittsniperb14_ESO wrote: »

Have you played daytime early/late afternoon NA lately? 3-4 bars EP running around against 1-2 bars of DC/AD swarming the map and taking everything in sight like locusts while gaining a massive campaign lead....which is what this thread is about. It's a shame that the pvp population is in such an unhealthy state that it cannot even support 1 competitive campaign anymore. When was the last time any faction won this campaign (Vivec, Thornblade, Wabba) by such a huge margin? Given this, is it really that surprising that organized AD groups aren't really playing the map anymore and are just looking for fights?

Well to be fair in the situation that Agrippa brought up (Bleakers last night) these AD guilds that were farming DC and EP pugs could have EASILY defended at least 1 side of the map and saved one of the scrolls especially with the help of their AD pugs.
At the time there were no DC guilds running, only pug groups. During the times you mention there isn’t much competition whatsoever and AD have at least 2 (now when Venatus are playing even 3) late night/aussie guilds/groups so it shouldn't be a problem at all to defend against 'pug zergs'. Organized groups will always be > than pug zergs if done right.

Venatus, Knights of Ni, Panda Force, Domdom all play late night.