Low Pop Bonus? Vivec PC NA

Anazasi

So roughly 3 days into the new campaign and EP has already taken a 1000pt lead over AD? The game is suffering enough with the bugs and other broken mechanics why is the EP faction destroying the only 30 day CP enable "competitive' campaign? I've often argued over the factional mechanics and have gained no ground on this issue. So to all those groups and players who think this campaign is about good fights. you are sadly selling or buying a lame horse. The faction that holds the biggest lead is EP with the strongest native groups if you can call them that. The will always favor an EP win over another faction. Just like we all witnessed last campaign. The will play EP till the campaign is so far out of balance on score and then flop over to another faction for the fights. DC is no better at this point because we have all seen specific groups log on 1 faction 1 night and another faction the other. This is why faction locks are necessary.

It's 3pm EST time. EP is 1000 pts ahead of AD with a locked population. AD has 2 bars. EP is gainly 131 pts per eval AD 24 and DC 44. Why are we not getting the bonus? Oh yeah EP players are logged in on AD so the bonus doesn't kick in? Awesome mechanics ZOS.

I wonder if ZOS is holding back on fixing the bugs in Cyrodiil in order to encourage more players to go to Battlegrounds? I know that was an interesting comment made in zone chat.

VaranisArano

I'd be fine with faction locks...since I have played EP on Vivec since Vivec started and don't intend to change that, win or lose.

But on the other hand, we have limited campaigns, and faction locks aren't likely to happen while that's the case. Ultimately, players decide for themselves whether to be faction loyal or not, or whether they want to fight for the winners or the underdogs. For myself, I fight for EP, win or lose, but I certainly understand why others make different choices.

Agrippa_Invisus

Well, to be fair, a large part of that lead is -- for once -- AD's own fault.

Last night around 11-12 central a couple of AD guilds took Bleakers from DC while Chalman was blue and EP was pushed back to just its Trikeeps and BRK.

EP takes back Chalman. DC retakes Ash. AD numbers at Bleakers increase. EP takes back Sej and Drake. DC takes Brin and Nik.

AD numbers at Bleakers remain high, including the organized guilds.

Alessia goes Red. Roe goes blue. The Bleakers farce continues. Easily half or more of the AD population is at Bleakers by this point.

Black Boot lights up. EP hits Faregyl. Fewer than 10 defenders at Fare from what I could count. DOZENS of AD at Bleakers still, including organized guilds -- yes, plural.

Bloodmayne lights while we're flipping Faregyl and flips shortly after. Both scrolls get pulled and we don't see an AD guild until climbing the steps of BRK with the scroll (and every keep south of it being red). The knightly guild gets wiped flat by an EP scroll raid and that's that. DC takes the other scroll.

I'll post a pic of the map later, when I'm not at work, but seriously -- this was a self inflicted wound. Those two guilds could easily have defended the majority of the AD home keeps (along with all the other AD at Bleakers) with little trouble and at the very least would have been almost impossible to dislodge from Faregyl.

Instead, by giving away both scrolls for a farming opportunity, the late evening AD gave away any chance at keeping the early points close.

It was so bad at one point the potential points for eval were +110 points for both EP and DC and +1 for AD. That point being Bleakers.

redspecter23

I want to see a low pop bonus and low score bonus so insane that players can be losing the campaign but be so excited to log in and play that they could still lose but love every second of it. Basically, I want a campaign bonus structure set up so that the losing side feels like they're winning.

VaranisArano

redspecter23 wrote: »

I want to see a low pop bonus and low score bonus so insane that players can be losing the campaign but be so excited to log in and play that they could still lose but love every second of it. Basically, I want a campaign bonus structure set up so that the losing side feels like they're winning.

See, all I need to be excited to log on and play is knowing that I'll be playing the map with my friends in guild, win or lose. That's honestly what's kept me excited about PVP in Haderus, in Trueflame, and in Vivec despite all the lag, all the bugs, the wins and the losses. Others might need rewards and incentives, but of that was what I looked for in PVP, I'd have been long gone. Fun with likeminded friends happy to play hard for EP win or lose - that's why I've kept playing PVP for over a year and a half.

Dreyloch

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Well, to be fair, a large part of that lead is -- for once -- AD's own fault.

Last night around 11-12 central a couple of AD guilds took Bleakers from DC while Chalman was blue and EP was pushed back to just its Trikeeps and BRK.

EP takes back Chalman. DC retakes Ash. AD numbers at Bleakers increase. EP takes back Sej and Drake. DC takes Brin and Nik.

AD numbers at Bleakers remain high, including the organized guilds.

Alessia goes Red. Roe goes blue. The Bleakers farce continues. Easily half or more of the AD population is at Bleakers by this point.

Black Boot lights up. EP hits Faregyl. Fewer than 10 defenders at Fare from what I could count. DOZENS of AD at Bleakers still, including organized guilds -- yes, plural.

Bloodmayne lights while we're flipping Faregyl and flips shortly after. Both scrolls get pulled and we don't see an AD guild until climbing the steps of BRK with the scroll (and every keep south of it being red). The knightly guild gets wiped flat by an EP scroll raid and that's that. DC takes the other scroll.

I'll post a pic of the map later, when I'm not at work, but seriously -- this was a self inflicted wound. Those two guilds could easily have defended the majority of the AD home keeps (along with all the other AD at Bleakers) with little trouble and at the very least would have been almost impossible to dislodge from Faregyl.

Instead, by giving away both scrolls for a farming opportunity, the late evening AD gave away any chance at keeping the early points close.

It was so bad at one point the potential points for eval were +110 points for both EP and DC and +1 for AD. That point being Bleakers.

With all respect Sir Agrippa, this isn't just a one night thing. This thread will get locked, but I'm gonna post anyway. EP has pretty much 24-7 coverage on Vivec. Even Shor has 3 bars or locked on weekends when the lag gets too heavy on Vivec. One guild I know of, really does play both EP and AD. 2 other guilds moved off DC to try and balance out a losing AD side in the last couple months. Which isn't helping very much so far. So we have one completely dominate faction, one that can't muster much at all, and another that's kind of in the middle, but losing ground weekly (outside of primetime weekdays, and thats ONLY for a couple hours) Then it's back to domination red.

For all those guilds who say they just want good fights, that's hard to believe when your running a ball group against a loose (albeit alot) of un-organized pugs in the pugs' tri-keep. Rather than searching out the other ball groups to fight. Call it what it is... AP farming pugs. It's NOT competition, it's NOT honorable, and it's NOT fun for anyone on the receiving end.

At first the pugs will like the thrill of trying to put this ball group down. But after awhile it gets old, and they stop coming to Cyrodiil, knowing there's little to no good leaders to run with, and getting run over by ball groups isn't fun anymore. Guilds used to look for other guilds to fight and many times bring the fight away from the keeps out in the open terrain. Or they take a keep in order to get a response from one of the other competitive guilds. I just don't see that anymore.

So in closing, until ZoS or EP makes a change, we're going to end up with a lopsided campaign that isn't fun for anyone.

frozywozy

What AD and DC needs is to git gud and stop relying on numbers to overcome their opponents, sad truth.

Dreyloch

frozywozy wrote: »

What AD and DC needs is to git gud and stop relying on numbers to overcome their opponents, sad truth.

It's not about getting gud, it's about having dedicated leaders that are good...and know what they're doing. Too few of those around, so all the loose pugs just herd up in numbers. Only thing they can do.

Psilent

I came back to the game to PvP with Summerset release and noticed a lot of former AD players running with me in the EP zergball. Figured they gave up on wanting good fights and got tired of being zerged by EP, so if you can't beat em, join em! One of the guys I used to fight everyday when he was AD is now running beside me whipping up on poor AD players. Was shocked to see him in the top 5 for EP on the leader boards. There was another guy who I remember playing a Stamsorc on AD that was a rather great player, but my gf said in TS "Hey isn't that so-so.. wasn't he AD?" I looked over and was like "Yep, played a AD Stamsorc.."

Seems like people just want to play with the winning faction only nowadays..

zyk

frozywozy wrote: »

What AD and DC needs is to git gud and stop relying on numbers to overcome their opponents, sad truth.

This is a pretty heavy load and you know it. AD and DC have produced as many "gud" players as EP. The problem is that because of the social dynamics in the game, many have decided to join EP.

Casual players aren't going to suddenly become hardcore because you tell them to git gud. What they're going to do, as they have been, is stop playing. Not everyone has the ability, time and/or inclination to become more enthusiastic. It is not the fault of the casual player that experienced enthusiasts on Vivec have stacked on EP.

What's necessary here is for experienced EP players to show leadership and even the teams at a competitive level. Stop playing for easy wins and start playing for good fights. Actually good fights that is, which are competitive. Unfortunately, too many players in this game consider organized, competitive players in optimal builds vs disorganized randoms to be a good fight. Or maybe that's a gud fight?

Sadly, the PVP players in this game have a very PVE mentality and want to farm less capable players effortlessly as if they're NPCs. Players like this don't want good fights, they want to feel like more capable gamers than they actually are.

Kudos to the AD and DC who have stuck it out through the tough times.

TL;DR: EP Vivec is a circle j rk and has been for a long time.

GlorphNoldorin

frozywozy wrote: »

What AD and DC needs is to git gud and stop relying on numbers to overcome their opponents, sad truth.

You and your mentality is at the root of the problem. EP stacks guilds (VV PM Kush) in prime time and runs around as a faction stack. Until guilds come on, nothing about 'get gud' will counter this. When DC and AD guilds come on, for a period, Prime time is relatively even fought.

EP already has a guild advantage. DC guilds are leaving either temporarily or permanently. Add to that a population imbalance through out all of the off peak day. Can you seriously just say "get good.' The score reflects this. 8k win and 11k to third in last campaign. It will be much the same this campaign.

The scroll score has made the scoring worse but what you are seeing is AD and DC losing population as they get tired of a) the lag bugs and general performance {emp keep takes are one of the worst performance sin this game)
and b) getting out numbered, faction stacked, for large portions of the day.

Where are these AD and DC going? Maybe to EP given the pop difference or just out of pvp until something changes.

Agrippa_Invisus

Dreyloch wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Well, to be fair, a large part of that lead is -- for once -- AD's own fault.

Last night around 11-12 central a couple of AD guilds took Bleakers from DC while Chalman was blue and EP was pushed back to just its Trikeeps and BRK.

EP takes back Chalman. DC retakes Ash. AD numbers at Bleakers increase. EP takes back Sej and Drake. DC takes Brin and Nik.

AD numbers at Bleakers remain high, including the organized guilds.

Alessia goes Red. Roe goes blue. The Bleakers farce continues. Easily half or more of the AD population is at Bleakers by this point.

Black Boot lights up. EP hits Faregyl. Fewer than 10 defenders at Fare from what I could count. DOZENS of AD at Bleakers still, including organized guilds -- yes, plural.

Bloodmayne lights while we're flipping Faregyl and flips shortly after. Both scrolls get pulled and we don't see an AD guild until climbing the steps of BRK with the scroll (and every keep south of it being red). The knightly guild gets wiped flat by an EP scroll raid and that's that. DC takes the other scroll.

I'll post a pic of the map later, when I'm not at work, but seriously -- this was a self inflicted wound. Those two guilds could easily have defended the majority of the AD home keeps (along with all the other AD at Bleakers) with little trouble and at the very least would have been almost impossible to dislodge from Faregyl.

Instead, by giving away both scrolls for a farming opportunity, the late evening AD gave away any chance at keeping the early points close.

It was so bad at one point the potential points for eval were +110 points for both EP and DC and +1 for AD. That point being Bleakers.

With all respect Sir Agrippa, this isn't just a one night thing. This thread will get locked, but I'm gonna post anyway. EP has pretty much 24-7 coverage on Vivec. Even Shor has 3 bars or locked on weekends when the lag gets too heavy on Vivec. One guild I know of, really does play both EP and AD. 2 other guilds moved off DC to try and balance out a losing AD side in the last couple months. Which isn't helping very much so far. So we have one completely dominate faction, one that can't muster much at all, and another that's kind of in the middle, but losing ground weekly (outside of primetime weekdays, and thats ONLY for a couple hours) Then it's back to domination red.

For all those guilds who say they just want good fights, that's hard to believe when your running a ball group against a loose (albeit alot) of un-organized pugs in the pugs' tri-keep. Rather than searching out the other ball groups to fight. Call it what it is... AP farming pugs. It's NOT competition, it's NOT honorable, and it's NOT fun for anyone on the receiving end.

At first the pugs will like the thrill of trying to put this ball group down. But after awhile it gets old, and they stop coming to Cyrodiil, knowing there's little to no good leaders to run with, and getting run over by ball groups isn't fun anymore. Guilds used to look for other guilds to fight and many times bring the fight away from the keeps out in the open terrain. Or they take a keep in order to get a response from one of the other competitive guilds. I just don't see that anymore.

So in closing, until ZoS or EP makes a change, we're going to end up with a lopsided campaign that isn't fun for anyone.

Oh, I'm fully aware of the population disparity. There's nothing AD can do about that at the moment. This is why I said it was only 'for once' that AD even had a little blame in this.

When the opportunity does arise to try to reverse course or fortune, AD stumbles over itself to not do anything helpful. That was more the point I was getting across.

One good night or one good day wouldn't turn things around, but it would help, and sitting half the faction at Bleakers is giving up before the fight even starts.

Ultimately, though, time and time again it's been proven the playerbase can't be counted on to properly balance the population scales. ZOS /must/ step in and enforce something drastic like dynamic population locks or this campaign is doomed to follow previous patterns.

Vilestride

Enlighten us zyk. How would not playing for EP suddenly lead to 'good fights' by your definition?

When there are only maybe 3 competitive guilds in the game statements like "top guilds mostly fight PUGs" only warrant the response "no sh#t"

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

So far I believe DC is the only faction to have recieved Low population bonus on Vivec? Kinda says enough to me that AD doesn't really struggle so much.

I think if you are unhappy with your factions results (as @Agrippa_Invisus commented 2 of your faction's guilds were at bleakers) you should start with your own guilds contribution. Some of your guild members were at bleakers instead of defending the map too.

The majority of the time most of AD can be found pushing either in a straight line to BRK or to Ash.

The guilds which push backline keeps for AD are normally the ones who leave straight away afterwards. AD doesn't spread out and defend keeps often. Either they will be there in force or not at all.

I understand you are frustrated but its much more beneficial to actually make a difference and improve this problem in game then it is to come and complain about players supposedly preventing you from getting a low pop bonus by playing PVP for your faction.

GlorphNoldorin wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

What AD and DC needs is to git gud and stop relying on numbers to overcome their opponents, sad truth.

You and your mentality is at the root of the problem. EP stacks guilds (VV PM Kush) in prime time and runs around as a faction stack. Until guilds come on, nothing about 'get gud' will counter this. When DC and AD guilds come on, for a period, Prime time is relatively even fought.

EP already has a guild advantage. DC guilds are leaving either temporarily or permanently. Add to that a population imbalance through out all of the off peak day. Can you seriously just say "get good.' The score reflects this. 8k win and 11k to third in last campaign. It will be much the same this campaign.

The scroll score has made the scoring worse but what you are seeing is AD and DC losing population as they get tired of a) the lag bugs and general performance {emp keep takes are one of the worst performance sin this game)
and b) getting out numbered, faction stacked, for large portions of the day.

Where are these AD and DC going? Maybe to EP given the pop difference or just out of pvp until something changes.

I believe what Frozn is referring to is the fact that DC is in need of more guilds which can go and engage large amounts of players and split them up at backline keeps being hardcore enough to hold them there for long enough for an effective push. Where as AD need to spread out more when their guilds are doing so to maximise their effectiveness.

Agrippa_Invisus

Vilestride wrote: »

Enlighten us zyk. How would not playing for EP suddenly lead to 'good fights' by your definition?

When there are only maybe 3 competitive guilds in the game statements like "top guilds mostly fight PUGs" only warrant the response "no sh#t"

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a lot of the forum complaining about how AD (or any other faction) needs better leadership, more people, whatever... just doesn't fly for the prime time guilds like Drac, IVS, or Omni.

We play where there's triple pop locked. Everything's fair in that regard. EP typically gets its hat handed to it in a heavy double team and the map evens out.

The problem has always been and always will be the swinging pendulum that is off hour dominance. No amount of faction swapping of the prime time guilds is going to fix that and berating any of said guilds for not stepping in to fix a particular faction's problem is a fallacious argument. Even if all the best guilds and players swap (and many have to AD already!), that off hour problem is the issue behind who wins the campaign.

It's four years into this game's lifespan and it's been proven, conclusively IMO, that players CAN NOT fix this problem. They have failed repeatedly through many good faith efforts (and a few bad ones) to try to make things better. Either it's too far in one direction or not enough. We don't have access to reports and stats telling us where the perfect point is.

ZOS needs to step in and implement some sort of dynamic pop cap to correct the off hours population issues. ZOS fixing the problem they created in the first place is the way to handle this. Not screaming at EP players and guilds and telling them they're destroying the game.

zyk

Vilestride wrote: »

Enlighten us zyk. How would not playing for EP suddenly lead to 'good fights' by your definition?

When there are only maybe 3 competitive guilds in the game statements like "top guilds mostly fight PUGs" only warrents the response "no sh#t"

I'm not only talking about big ball groups. As I have said many times before, the larger problems are EP's small-medium groups and surfers. The EP randoms who surf each other down to Alessia are far better geared and have a much better understanding of the game than the AD they fight.

It does exist at a large guild level too. The last I saw, Drac carried more than a few players who started with AD.

I mean, I guess you could play with blinders on. When I zerged in ball groups, I pretty much ignored the map most of the time too. But I'm really surprised you don't recognize that a huge competitive advantage exists in the favor of EP. It's existed for more than a year and keeps feeding itself as more players from DC or AD either quit or switch over to EP as well.

Nemesismimz

Dreyloch wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

What AD and DC needs is to git gud and stop relying on numbers to overcome their opponents, sad truth.

It's not about getting gud, it's about having dedicated leaders that are good...and know what they're doing. Too few of those around, so all the loose pugs just herd up in numbers. Only thing they can do.

IMO we have a lot of folks that talk about leadership, but when the time comes time to lead no one wants to step up. something else to keep in mind is that a leader is only capable of doing what his/her group allows them to do. with the quality of pugs in the game now that is not promising. As a DC leader i know we have some good leaders. they all run guilds and in some cases, to run in those guilds you have to run on their terms. this is a great way to learn and grow in pvp. how do think most of those guilds got started? by running pug groups.

raks200b16_ESO

I play AD, and try to do what I can to help the faction, but ad is usually with 2 bars, and ep pop locked, and once the score gets out of whack. were just gonna do something else. EP is the faction people are leaving other factions to join, making it even more lop sided, it can be any time of the night, and ep are pop locked, and most importantly EP has organized guilds than can clear the map every night from 5 or 6 am till noon or 1 pm, they have alot of nighttime players from oceanic. not blaming anything, its just the way it is.

when the score is close you get some good steady fights. being steamrolled every night, does get old fast.

during primetime all 3 factions are usually poplocked, but its the other times I mean.

zyk

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

It's four years into this game's lifespan and it's been proven, conclusively IMO, that players CAN NOT fix this problem. They have failed repeatedly through many good faith efforts (and a few bad ones) to try to make things better. Either it's too far in one direction or not enough. We don't have access to reports and stats telling us where the perfect point is.

This is incorrect. It's a cop out that history has proven wrong. We were here before in 1.5 and the problem was fixed for a long time by players stepping up to solve it.

The problem was created by choices made by individuals and can be corrected the same way. It may not be realistic to expect it, it may not happen, but it is possible.

It doesn't have to be perfect. Most recognize there is a problem. Now we need people to step up and do something about it. Again, it's not just about big groups like Drac an Omni. The larger issue is the small groups that endlessly torment randoms and the overall aptitude of the average EP player compared to the average AD player.

I say groups because it goes beyond guilds. EP has a large community of experienced players that play with each other in different configurations.

AD has been a running joke in every Discord community I've observed for more than a year. Even decent players who stick with AD make jokes about AD. It has, by far, the lowest representation in small scale and GvG. Everyone knows there's a problem but few want to do anything about it. Kudos to all those who have stepped up and tried.

Agrippa_Invisus

zyk wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

It's four years into this game's lifespan and it's been proven, conclusively IMO, that players CAN NOT fix this problem. They have failed repeatedly through many good faith efforts (and a few bad ones) to try to make things better. Either it's too far in one direction or not enough. We don't have access to reports and stats telling us where the perfect point is.

This is incorrect. It's a cop out that history has proven wrong. We were here before in 1.5 and the problem was fixed for a long time by players stepping up to solve it.

The problem was created by choices made by individuals and can be corrected the same way. It may not be realistic to expect it, it may not happen, but it is possible.

It doesn't have to be perfect. Most recognize there is a problem. Now we need people to step up and do something about it. Again, it's not just about big groups like Drac an Omni. The larger issue is the small groups that endlessly torment randoms and the overall aptitude of the average EP player compared to the average AD player.

I say groups because it goes beyond guilds. EP has a large community of experienced players that play with each other in different configurations.

AD has been a running joke in every Discord community I've observed for more than a year. Even decent players who stick with AD make jokes about AD. It has, by far, the lowest representation in small scale and GvG. Everyone knows there's a problem but few want to do anything about it. Kudos to all those who have stepped up and tried.

I have no faith in the playerbase to do what you suggest.

I don't remember that 1.5 was anywhere near as perfect as you remember, and I know for a fact that player off hour overpopulation problems on campaigns has been an issue since Auriel's Bow, Bloodthorn, and other servers existed.

In this entire game's history it has been a struggle to get players to do the right thing when the right thing was for ZOS to administratively force equality amongst the factions. The only way to make sure it is done and guarantee it is done is for the game code to force it to happen.

At this stage in the game, there isn't enough lifespan in the ESO PVP community left for anything more than drastic measures such as that.

SirDopey

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Enlighten us zyk. How would not playing for EP suddenly lead to 'good fights' by your definition?

When there are only maybe 3 competitive guilds in the game statements like "top guilds mostly fight PUGs" only warrant the response "no sh#t"

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a lot of the forum complaining about how AD (or any other faction) needs better leadership, more people, whatever... just doesn't fly for the prime time guilds like Drac, IVS, or Omni.

We play where there's triple pop locked. Everything's fair in that regard. EP typically gets its hat handed to it in a heavy double team and the map evens out.

The problem has always been and always will be the swinging pendulum that is off hour dominance. No amount of faction swapping of the prime time guilds is going to fix that and berating any of said guilds for not stepping in to fix a particular faction's problem is a fallacious argument. Even if all the best guilds and players swap (and many have to AD already!), that off hour problem is the issue behind who wins the campaign.

It's four years into this game's lifespan and it's been proven, conclusively IMO, that players CAN NOT fix this problem. They have failed repeatedly through many good faith efforts (and a few bad ones) to try to make things better. Either it's too far in one direction or not enough. We don't have access to reports and stats telling us where the perfect point is.

ZOS needs to step in and implement some sort of dynamic pop cap to correct the off hours population issues. ZOS fixing the problem they created in the first place is the way to handle this. Not screaming at EP players and guilds and telling them they're destroying the game.

Yep, blame us Aussies!!!!

Mazbt

I know when my guild isn't running, I'm solo and I get zerged down inside my own keep and I see bleakers is AD I will definitely port to Bleaker (or if an enemy back keep is AD) Not much motivation for a pug to defend keeps if there is no comrades around to help. Or if comrades just chill on their seige and not help you push inside a tower to fight a small group that is definitely outnumbered (that's another problem entirely)

Agrippa_Invisus

SirDopey wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Enlighten us zyk. How would not playing for EP suddenly lead to 'good fights' by your definition?

When there are only maybe 3 competitive guilds in the game statements like "top guilds mostly fight PUGs" only warrant the response "no sh#t"

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a lot of the forum complaining about how AD (or any other faction) needs better leadership, more people, whatever... just doesn't fly for the prime time guilds like Drac, IVS, or Omni.

We play where there's triple pop locked. Everything's fair in that regard. EP typically gets its hat handed to it in a heavy double team and the map evens out.

The problem has always been and always will be the swinging pendulum that is off hour dominance. No amount of faction swapping of the prime time guilds is going to fix that and berating any of said guilds for not stepping in to fix a particular faction's problem is a fallacious argument. Even if all the best guilds and players swap (and many have to AD already!), that off hour problem is the issue behind who wins the campaign.

It's four years into this game's lifespan and it's been proven, conclusively IMO, that players CAN NOT fix this problem. They have failed repeatedly through many good faith efforts (and a few bad ones) to try to make things better. Either it's too far in one direction or not enough. We don't have access to reports and stats telling us where the perfect point is.

ZOS needs to step in and implement some sort of dynamic pop cap to correct the off hours population issues. ZOS fixing the problem they created in the first place is the way to handle this. Not screaming at EP players and guilds and telling them they're destroying the game.

Yep, blame us Aussies!!!!

Not really. The time the disparity seems the worst is in the middle of the night Australia time. Not that there aren't some playing, but I doubt they're the primary contribution.

zyk

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I don't remember that 1.5 was anywhere near as perfect as you remember, and I know for a fact that player off hour overpopulation problems on campaigns has been an issue since Auriel's Bow, Bloodthorn, and other servers existed.

1.5 was a total nightmare at a competitive level. AD had been the strongest faction on Thornblade, the main 30 day campaign, until DiE switched over to EP at the end of 1.4. A lot of other AD who weren't in DiE saw the writing on the wall and switched over with them. That tilted the table in EP's favor and playing AD became much more difficult.

By the time Havoc was formed, it was normal for EP to cap all opponent scrolls overnight and each afternoon Eastern time presented an uphill battle for AD and DC heading into prime time. Like now, this process fed itself with more and more players from AD and DC switching over to "play with friends" until Thornblade was effectively a buff server by the end of 1.5. Heading into 1.6, pretty much all AD and DC guilds scattered, playing wherever the strong EP guilds were not. TB would never recover.

That's when VE made the decision to switch to DC (late 1.6/early 2.0). Like what happened with the DiE switch over, many players saw the writing on the wall and switched over with them. As EP's dominance faded, many EP who had switched from AD returned to AD. Through 2.0 and approximately 2.3, DC had an edge, but there was a general sense of parity.

At the start of 2.3, AD effectively lost RAGE which triggered the departure of many hardcore AD players. What started as a trickle became a flood that eventually resulted in the current dynamic.

The problem isn't with the game or with any of the factions. Though modern games should have competitive balance mechanisms, the main problem is the collective choices made by the players in this game. We created this mess and we can also solve it. It starts by good players currently playing on EP deciding to switch to a different faction for better fights.

EP and DC share a lot of small scale players. AD needs a *lot* of help in this area. Stop farming AD randoms and pugs and start helping them.

Elong

frozywozy wrote: »

What AD and DC needs is to git gud and stop relying on numbers to overcome their opponents, sad truth.

He's right. I'm sorry, but he's right.

You can't keep blaming your own faction's failings on our superiority.

We have good pugs, good veteran players who tell people to go to the right places at the right time, faction pride, a unified faction and an ability to work together.

Our playerbase is no more skilled than the others. We simply want to win. The other faction's play the "we don't play the map" card, because they can't beat us.

Real Madrid have won the Champions League 3 times in a row. Are they destroying football? Are they hell. It's up to the other teams to compete.

Elong

zyk wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

I don't remember that 1.5 was anywhere near as perfect as you remember, and I know for a fact that player off hour overpopulation problems on campaigns has been an issue since Auriel's Bow, Bloodthorn, and other servers existed.

1.5 was a total nightmare at a competitive level. AD had been the strongest faction on Thornblade, the main 30 day campaign, until DiE switched over to EP at the end of 1.4. A lot of other AD who weren't in DiE saw the writing on the wall and switched over with them. That tilted the table in EP's favor and playing AD became much more difficult.

By the time Havoc was formed, it was normal for EP to cap all opponent scrolls overnight and each afternoon Eastern time presented an uphill battle for AD and DC heading into prime time. Like now, this process fed itself with more and more players from AD and DC switching over to "play with friends" until Thornblade was effectively a buff server by the end of 1.5. Heading into 1.6, pretty much all AD and DC guilds scattered, playing wherever the strong EP guilds were not. TB would never recover.

That's when VE made the decision to switch to DC (late 1.6/early 2.0). Like what happened with the DiE switch over, many players saw the writing on the wall and switched over with them. As EP's dominance faded, many EP who had switched from AD returned to AD. Through 2.0 and approximately 2.3, DC had an edge, but there was a general sense of parity.

At the start of 2.3, AD effectively lost RAGE which triggered the departure of many hardcore AD players. What started as a trickle became a flood that eventually resulted in the current dynamic.

The problem isn't with the game or with any of the factions. Though modern games should have competitive balance mechanisms, the main problem is the collective choices made by the players in this game. We created this mess and we can also solve it. It starts by good players currently playing on EP deciding to switch to a different faction for better fights.

EP and DC share a lot of small scale players. AD needs a *lot* of help in this area. Stop farming AD randoms and pugs and start helping them.

Zyk, you've admitted yourself in many posts that you don't play often or group often these days, yet you post a lot on here as some sort of AD figurehead. I think you're very out of touch and giving a very poor reflection on what actually occurs in this game anymore.

zyk

Elong wrote: »

Zyk, you've admitted yourself in many posts that you don't play often or group often these days, yet you post a lot on here as some sort of AD figurehead. I think you're very out of touch and giving a very poor reflection on what actually occurs in this game anymore.

No, I post as someone who knows the history of PC NA and who has an opinion. It's pretty obvious that a *significant* competitive imbalance continues to exist.

What exactly am I failing to describe accurately?

frozywozy

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I believe what Frozn is referring to is the fact that DC is in need of more guilds which can go and engage large amounts of players and split them up at backline keeps being hardcore enough to hold them there for long enough for an effective push. Where as AD need to spread out more when their guilds are doing so to maximise their effectiveness.

What I refer to exactly is the fact that 90% of players in this game play the way they want, with the gear they want, the skills they want and simply follow masses without any voice communication or leadership. Then they will get farmed by enemy groups who decide to run specific sets of gear all min / maxed, with proper roles (damage, support, healing), proper skills on their bars, using voice communication and a raid leader.

I still remember several months ago when EP was struggling alot with only Invictus, Haxus and a few other guilds I won't mention. We had almost no presence whatsoever. me and Hektik offered assistance to casual guilds time and time again. We offered their raid leader to come and play with us, we offer them to designate class leaders so we could review specific builds with them and bring adjustments where needed.

I am not kidding, we insisted for months and NONE of those guilds accepted the help. They literally said that they would rather rely on numbers than getting better as a player / group. I am 99.99% sure that this is still the case right now but for most of AD and DC pugs running around getting farmed endlessly every night.

They are too lazy to put the energy, dedication, organization and researches to get together and build something strong that synergize well and counter the other organized raids out there. There is already a large source of information available. You can read your combat log and analyze how you died or you can watch my stream and see how it goes.

I won't lie, a lot depends on the raid leader / officers attitude and experience in general. A great leader can achieve wonders when put with skilled players. We do see that alot lately when Venatus plays late night.

Experienced players have to stop complaining about their faction being useless and lead them in the right direction like me, Hektik and plenty of other EPs did several months ago. And casual players who decide to complain about the status of their faction have to step up their gameplay and improve instead of not doing any effort to adjust their playstyle.

Vilestride

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Enlighten us zyk. How would not playing for EP suddenly lead to 'good fights' by your definition?

When there are only maybe 3 competitive guilds in the game statements like "top guilds mostly fight PUGs" only warrant the response "no sh#t"

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a lot of the forum complaining about how AD (or any other faction) needs better leadership, more people, whatever... just doesn't fly for the prime time guilds like Drac, IVS, or Omni.

We play where there's triple pop locked. Everything's fair in that regard. EP typically gets its hat handed to it in a heavy double team and the map evens out.

The problem has always been and always will be the swinging pendulum that is off hour dominance. No amount of faction swapping of the prime time guilds is going to fix that and berating any of said guilds for not stepping in to fix a particular faction's problem is a fallacious argument. Even if all the best guilds and players swap (and many have to AD already!), that off hour problem is the issue behind who wins the campaign.

It's four years into this game's lifespan and it's been proven, conclusively IMO, that players CAN NOT fix this problem. They have failed repeatedly through many good faith efforts (and a few bad ones) to try to make things better. Either it's too far in one direction or not enough. We don't have access to reports and stats telling us where the perfect point is.

ZOS needs to step in and implement some sort of dynamic pop cap to correct the off hours population issues. ZOS fixing the problem they created in the first place is the way to handle this. Not screaming at EP players and guilds and telling them they're destroying the game.

No correction required. I agree with this 100%.
Off hours population imbalance is a problem. Prime time competitve parity is not.

Elong

zyk wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zyk, you've admitted yourself in many posts that you don't play often or group often these days, yet you post a lot on here as some sort of AD figurehead. I think you're very out of touch and giving a very poor reflection on what actually occurs in this game anymore.

No, I post as someone who knows the history of PC NA and who has an opinion. It's pretty obvious that a *significant* competitive imbalance continues to exist.

What exactly am I failing to describe accurately?

Last week there was a time just after prime time where EP had 2 bars to AD and DC's 3 bars. We pushed past Ales and Alessia.

If a competition imbalance exists, perhaps try to get your faction's level to our ability. Some of us, players like Xylena, Agrippa, Frozn amongst others, have worked bloody hard at getting our faction to where it is.

You're failing to describe where the issue really is and how to address it. Look at your own ranks, and fix it.

Elong

Vilestride wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Vilestride wrote: »

Enlighten us zyk. How would not playing for EP suddenly lead to 'good fights' by your definition?

When there are only maybe 3 competitive guilds in the game statements like "top guilds mostly fight PUGs" only warrant the response "no sh#t"

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a lot of the forum complaining about how AD (or any other faction) needs better leadership, more people, whatever... just doesn't fly for the prime time guilds like Drac, IVS, or Omni.

We play where there's triple pop locked. Everything's fair in that regard. EP typically gets its hat handed to it in a heavy double team and the map evens out.

The problem has always been and always will be the swinging pendulum that is off hour dominance. No amount of faction swapping of the prime time guilds is going to fix that and berating any of said guilds for not stepping in to fix a particular faction's problem is a fallacious argument. Even if all the best guilds and players swap (and many have to AD already!), that off hour problem is the issue behind who wins the campaign.

It's four years into this game's lifespan and it's been proven, conclusively IMO, that players CAN NOT fix this problem. They have failed repeatedly through many good faith efforts (and a few bad ones) to try to make things better. Either it's too far in one direction or not enough. We don't have access to reports and stats telling us where the perfect point is.

ZOS needs to step in and implement some sort of dynamic pop cap to correct the off hours population issues. ZOS fixing the problem they created in the first place is the way to handle this. Not screaming at EP players and guilds and telling them they're destroying the game.

No correction required. I agree with this 100%.
Off hours population imbalance is a problem. Prime time competitve parity is not.

The off hours imbalance only happens the moment we take one of their home keeps Vile. It's my prime time, I'm well versed in what happens. We have a massive battle for Ales or Alessia and EP win, they drop a bar immediately. We lose Bleaks or Sej, they do not log.

They simply are fair weather players.