Summerset patch has killed Cyro

Ishammael

Kilandros wrote: »

14 days until CU beta

Yeah we'll see how that goes

I have been half watching CU dev for 3 years now... they are still a LONG way from a real product.

Agrippa_Invisus

Xsorus wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

name another mmo with bigger pvp battles besides WoW

Guild Wars 2.

And it runs smoothly in the game engine.

Even earlier on it was Dark Age of Camelot and Shadowbane that had huge siege battles.

Define smoothly; cause early on in gw2 they cut down the view distance of zergs and caused zergs to appear suddenly 2 feet in front of you. When they removed that you pretty much only left with using just your basic attack in large fights because nothing else would register. Like I couldn’t even pvp on my ranger during those fights because I was condition based and relied on cooldown abilities that didn’t work in any zerg fight.

Smooth: Antonym - ESO Playing Experience

I played a little bit earlier this year, including WvWvW and it ran just fine. Certainly a darn sight better of an experience than the overall experience in ESO.

If I'd had a guild or folks I knew, I might have stuck around.

Agrippa_Invisus

Xsorus wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

Arobain wrote: »

name another mmo with bigger pvp battles besides WoW

Guild Wars 2.

And it runs smoothly in the game engine.

Even earlier on it was Dark Age of Camelot and Shadowbane that had huge siege battles.

Define smoothly; cause early on in gw2 they cut down the view distance of zergs and caused zergs to appear suddenly 2 feet in front of you. When they removed that you pretty much only left with using just your basic attack in large fights because nothing else would register. Like I couldn’t even pvp on my ranger during those fights because I was condition based and relied on cooldown abilities that didn’t work in any zerg fight.

Smooth: Antonym - ESO Playing Experience

I played a little bit earlier this year, including WvWvW and it ran just fine. Certainly a darn sight better of an experience than the overall experience in ESO.

If I'd had a guild or folks I knew, I might have stuck around.

Here's the thing to remember, the ESO performance experience is so bloody awful that many games that have mediocre performance are vastly superior in that regard.

RadicalSpirit

natefiaccob14_ESO wrote: »

Cyro, specifically the vivec server, has turned into a completely unbalanced laggy zerg fest. It is no longer player v player. its player v lag. The population imbalance is one huge issue that is causing players to leave or just faction hope to the winning side with no penalty. Constant 30-60 man zergs on both ends causing mass disconnects and making the game unplayable. It is also riddled with bugs. The sprint bug where you cant do anything unless u hit shift again, weapon swap causing dismount, walls showing to be down when they are not and ur able to walk right thru them, doors saying they are at 0% but being unable to walk thru them or hit them because it didnt actually go away, skill lag where you need to hit the button multiple times for it to work, cc immunity not working at all. Time stop spam is another issue. Its made cyro even shittier. Constantly being spammed with no cooldowns to the point people cant rlly do much, add lag to that and its GG. If these problems arent resolved then cyro will become even more lopsided and more people will leave.

I was on this server for 5 hours last night and didn't experience lag once and I was at every castle with all the crazy zergs defending/attacking that whole time.

I can't speak on all the other issues that you listed, as I don't know that much about the game but lag definitely was not a problem in that server if you have adequate equipment.

Theodard

frozywozy wrote: »

You forgot the worst bug, staying in combat more than 3/4 of the way walking from one keep to another.

It is soooo much fun to walk/run from Chal to BRK to defend though.

I didn't get out of combat from that until after BRK ticked. While I did make it in time to help defend, it was slow obviously for me to get there.

Preyfar

Palidon wrote: »

ESO after 4 years is just old news. It is the same crap over and over again. It is most apparent they could care less about the Cyrodiil problems.

Look at how towns were redesigned to allow for capture. The capture points were dropped in without love and care. In Bruma you've got guards standing around in a town that's supposed to have been overrun by daedra, and the townspeople are trying to fight for their lives, and... they just stand there. Occasionally they'll fight an NPC that's programmed to walk into them, but they look bad and thrown together. Meanwhile, there's a whole group of troops standing around not helping, not doing anything, and the townsfolk don't even know they're there. What?

Sure, these are PVE mechanics in a PVP zone, sure, but there was minimal development effort put into them. The mechanics work, sure, but they weren't integrated into the game with care to the rest of the game (especially story/quest-based). Look at Arena District. People are being enslaved and tortured... and these guards are just standing around doing nothing.

If they don't care about doing the effort to make towns work while will they care about the rest of PVP. It was minimal effort to make it functional. They're gameplay bandaids which add bare functionality without the care and attention to the little details Bethesda games are otherwise known for. And this was done to help give players more areas to fight over and reduce the congestion of PVP, but... it was bare effort.

Zenimax doesn't care about Cyrodiil.

King_Thelon

Kilandros wrote: »

14 days until CU beta

Michael sailed the boat ashore,
Save us Mark Jacobs.
Michael sailed the boat ashore,
Save us Mark Jacobs.

Sister helped to trim the sail,
Save us Mark Jacobs.
Sister helped to trim the sail,
Save us Mark Jacobs.

River Jordan was deep and wide,
Save us Mark Jacobs.
River Jordan was deep and wide,
Save us Mark Jacobs.

There's milk and honey on the other side,
Save us Mark Jacobs.
There's milk and honey on the other side,
Save us Mark Jacobs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V50eHv7Dfmw

Karivaa

I can’t believe I still play pvp after the load screens issues last year. What a joke and now we all freeze on Xbox NA. That promised us a fix today. I heard it didn’t fix the freezes.

LegendaryMage

Ishammael wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

14 days until CU beta

Yeah we'll see how that goes

I have been half watching CU dev for 3 years now... they are still a LONG way from a real product.

Crowfall might be worth keeping tabs on too. They're advertising it as a purely PVP MMO with minor PVE aspects to it. From what I can see, the engine & art style could definitely support those huge battles we were promised in ESO long ago.

@Preyfar you're right on point too, the effort does indeed seem minimal. I don't think they have the manpower to do anything drastic in PVP, or they figured they can't and that's why they don't? Who knows...

NBrookus

Kilandros wrote: »

14 days until CU beta

You are going to be disappointed if you expect a playable game July 4th. It's probably another year before it gets to what most people think of as a "beta."

Yuke

Apropos CU. MJ needs a dozen of hardcore testers for the last Weeks before Beta1 release. Check your Emails (Spam-Folder) for more Infos.

Rylana

I honestly cant believe that anyone is still playing in cyrodiil in this game. Given JUST the forum topics to go by, its actually worse than it was when I left 2 years ago.

Why do you do this to yourselves?

tinythinker

Gprime31 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Gprime31 wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

ZOS doesnt care.

Did they ever?

Yes, 4 years ago when they marketed the game as "MASSIVE PVP FIGHTS" "3 ALLIANCE WAR" "MEGA(lol)SERVERS"

They seriously dont understand that they have the best PVP system, and theyre just killing it slowly.

Ah... the 1.6 days...

DON'T START.

It's gone. Let it go...

Mickydanz

We will stay in ESO until something better comes along - trust me we are all looking. We had entire guilds leave for a game like bless online, just hoping for a gem to tide them over. 250k people watched that launch on twitch, the mmo-pvp community want a fresh new game, however so many would stay and build a community in eso if the bugs just got fixed.

TheLoremaster

PC EU atm. (The purple stuff is sload btw).

usmcjdking

The PVE/PVP unified approach has massively failed. In practice, not in theory. I still believe the approach is sound and works, but the work put behind balancing both equally is simply not there. The backlog of balance issues with PVP will require an entire dedicated patch; not some incremental "we changed sloads' but reviewing the degradation of PVP over the past 3 years and attempting to alleviate or outright remove some of the more blatantly imbalanced aspects that have occurred since then.

Cyro and PVP in general is too complicated from a design perspective. I mean I commend the team for at least trying to apply copious amounts of gauze to a gunshot wound but it's not going to stop the internal bleeding. It might be salvageable still, but Wheeler & CO need to try to stop any future gunshots instead of reacting to them.

Karivaa

Mickydanz wrote: »

We will stay in ESO until something better comes along - trust me we are all looking. We had entire guilds leave for a game like bless online, just hoping for a gem to tide them over. 250k people watched that launch on twitch, the mmo-pvp community want a fresh new game, however so many would stay and build a community in eso if the bugs just got fixed.

This is so true, especially on console. We keep trying other games because we all know ESO is broken and Zos has refused to completely fix it. I played wow for years and each time it broke, Blizzard took it offline immediately and fixed it. They also had game masters who were accessible. Every time something is broken in ESO, it takes months for Zos to fix it. Why? What is the core issue?

Karivaa

Mickydanz wrote: »

We will stay in ESO until something better comes along - trust me we are all looking. We had entire guilds leave for a game like bless online, just hoping for a gem to tide them over. 250k people watched that launch on twitch, the mmo-pvp community want a fresh new game, however so many would stay and build a community in eso if the bugs just got fixed.

This is so true, especially on console. We keep trying other games because we all know ESO is broken and Zos has refused to completely fix it. I played wow for years and each time it broke, Blizzard took it offline immediately and fixed it. They also had game masters who were accessible. Every time something is broken in ESO, it takes months for Zos to fix it. Why? What is the core issue?

LegendaryMage

Karivaa wrote: »

Mickydanz wrote: »

We will stay in ESO until something better comes along - trust me we are all looking. We had entire guilds leave for a game like bless online, just hoping for a gem to tide them over. 250k people watched that launch on twitch, the mmo-pvp community want a fresh new game, however so many would stay and build a community in eso if the bugs just got fixed.

This is so true, especially on console. We keep trying other games because we all know ESO is broken and Zos has refused to completely fix it. I played wow for years and each time it broke, Blizzard took it offline immediately and fixed it. They also had game masters who were accessible. Every time something is broken in ESO, it takes months for Zos to fix it. Why? What is the core issue?

Seems to me like most of their dev staff is nowadays (and for some time now) purely dedicated for PVE, Crownstore stuff, dungeons & trials and maybe some minor performance/bug/balance optimizations.

You know, things that they can actually (for the most part) pull off on a schedule, without making everything explode. Literally.

I mean it's clear to see based on what's going on.

Also, based on what I've seen over the years, I wouldn't be surprised if Brian was the only guy left there to actually work on PVP.

It's been so long without any PVP changes, @ZOS_BrianWheeler my man what the hell are you doing, what are they making you work on?

Can you please tell those incompetent suits there that one of the best PVP games out there with so much potential is absolutely going down the drain.

In an ideal world, this game should have been 50-50 between PVE & PVP, where you'd have dozens and dozens of PVP campaigns with thousands and thousands of players on each.

Now don't tell me none of those guys wouldn't make ZO$ any cash, they absolutely would. But no one bothered to setup this infrastructure, so I'm starting to think that it's not really possible to do it.

In other words, I have a feeling it's not about computing power or man-hours, I think it just won't float. But that's just my observation, could be wrong...

Arkangeloski

Funny story, I was on BRK last night fighting AD and then all of the sudden the world stops... And I was like damm this lag I'm about to be disconnected , kinda like when you are about to DC and everything just stops like the matrix and u can walk a few secs before getting kicked out, well at least that's what I thought until I noticed an AD nb killing all the afk players lol I'll bet he was having the 1vx of dreams but then I killed him and msg him afterwards and we both were like wtf?! But yeah summerset killed cyro

tinythinker

maboleth wrote: »

I see it like this - they marketed the game as the ultimate PVP alliance fights, but soon also made and fixed incredible PVE stuff. After overcoming the bad reputation of the early days and "ES doesn't need multiplayer" mindset, many players returned and even more ES players joined ESO for the first time.

So in a nutshell, there's far, far more PVE players and questers than PVPers.

Preyfar wrote: »

Look at how towns were redesigned to allow for capture. The capture points were dropped in without love and care. In Bruma you've got guards standing around in a town that's supposed to have been overrun by daedra, and the townspeople are trying to fight for their lives, and... they just stand there.

Sure, these are PVE mechanics in a PVP zone, sure, but there was minimal development effort put into them. The mechanics work, sure, but they weren't integrated into the game with care to the rest of the game (especially story/quest-based).

If they don't care about doing the effort to make towns work while will they care about the rest of PVP.

Palidon wrote: »

ESO after 4 years is just old news. It is the same crap over and over again. It is most apparent they could care less about the Cyrodiil problems.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

Karivaa wrote: »

Mickydanz wrote: »

We will stay in ESO until something better comes along - trust me we are all looking. We had entire guilds leave for a game like bless online, just hoping for a gem to tide them over. 250k people watched that launch on twitch, the mmo-pvp community want a fresh new game, however so many would stay and build a community in eso if the bugs just got fixed.

This is so true, especially on console. We keep trying other games because we all know ESO is broken and Zos has refused to completely fix it. I played wow for years and each time it broke, Blizzard took it offline immediately and fixed it. They also had game masters who were accessible. Every time something is broken in ESO, it takes months for Zos to fix it. Why? What is the core issue?

Seems to me like most of their dev staff is nowadays (and for some time now) purely dedicated for PVE, Crownstore stuff, dungeons & trials and maybe some minor performance/bug/balance optimizations.

You know, things that they can actually (for the most part) pull off on a schedule, without making everything explode. Literally.

I mean it's clear to see based on what's going on.

Also, based on what I've seen over the years, I wouldn't be surprised if Brian was the only guy left there to actually work on PVP.

It's been so long without any PVP changes, @ZOS_BrianWheeler my man what the hell are you doing, what are they making you work on?

Can you please tell those incompetent suits there that one of the best PVP games out there with so much potential is absolutely going down the drain.

In an ideal world, this game should have been 50-50 between PVE & PVP, where you'd have dozens and dozens of PVP campaigns with thousands and thousands of players on each.

Now don't tell me none of those guys wouldn't make ZO$ any cash, they absolutely would. But no one bothered to setup this infrastructure, so I'm starting to think that it's not really possible to do it.

In other words, I have a feeling it's not about computing power or man-hours, I think it just won't float. But that's just my observation, could be wrong...

They did make changes to AvA this spring/summer, and Wheeler was on the forums and on stream talking about them. They worked on back-end stuff to increase performance in Cyrodiil, changed the scoring system values (points for objectives), NPC strength etc. But they aren't huge overhauls, because any really major change to how AvA works is going to 1) annoy a bunch of players, 2) create a new set of problems with game performance and balance, 3) require a ton of dedicated hours implement (assuming some changes would be possible without severely upsetting the code they have to work with and around), 4) fail to get a response to justify the effort.

And people often ignore Battlegrounds -- bug fixes, design changes, new mode and maps -- but that's PvP too and takes the time and focus of the PvP team. Look at the number of things added to/revised/fixed for BGs over the last couple of years -- there's your PvP updates and PvP team time spent.

They tried to have lots of campaigns and players for AvA, but even at launch it wasn't the level of success they anticipated. They didn't just have a couple extra unneeded campaigns as proper planning would dictate, they had several. The number of campaigns shrank for years to get where it is now, with temporary campaigns added for seasonal events. AvA, even at it's highest levels of participation and game performance, has always never been wildly popular.

People who like (or once liked) AvA in ESO like to say it's so great and it's a shame that the game had so many flaws at launch, or that the servers/code can't handle big battles better, or that this/that patch changed combat/progression/gear grind in a way that turned PvPers off, or that a few crucial thing haven't been added to "finish" Cyrodiil, or... or... yet ESO AvA has always been a "it would be the best *if* only" situation. The if-only-ism ignores the fact that even during whichever golden era people yearn for from the last four years (pick a patch number), AvA has never done as well as players had hoped or as well as they though it could. Some gave up, some still hope for the magic patch that will bring in the one true fix. However...

>>>>>> Cyrodiil and AvA are, in broad strokes, complete. <<<<<<<

Some tweaking and adding a few things here and there (like when they put in capturable towns or took doors off of resource towers), maybe, but overall the focus is optimization for AvA, not innovation. And while there has been some progress on that goal, a 40-100+ player battle is *always* going to be laggy for a large number of players, a busy campaign will always have a high ping for lots of players, some set or ability is *always* going to be broke, you will *always* siege the same keeps and outposts, etc.

Don't get me wrong, there's still some fun things they could do:

• make the IC zone base game: spread people out by putting some in that map, tie the districts to AvA (holding = points per each & a unique buffer per district) and connect them to the larger war somehow similar to how gate keeps are connected to scroll temple gates
• add "flags/events" that pop up in various (dead) places on the map that tie into the logic of the war to get people to spread out and offer new things to do
• expand/revise AvA skill lines
• give more rewards for leveling AvA ranks

But they will still have performance issues go to the heart of the problems for Cyro. Adding more events, NPCs, connections between different activities, and more players are limited by what the code/servers can handle, so again, keep your expectations reasonable. ESO AvA isn't going to get leaps and bounds better than it is now, just maybe a little less laggy.

TequilaFire

All I want is to get what we have fixed as I still have a lot of fun playing it with my guild mates.

Slowbromance

The other night me and two other people had a fun glitch where we couldn't move, but we could see everyone else still fighting. After reloading ui we were able to break out of it, but hey. Everything is working as intended.

Hammy01

Kilandros wrote: »

14 days until CU beta

If only they would bring this to consoles so ESO could have some real competition .

Hammy01

usmcjdking wrote: »

The PVE/PVP unified approach has massively failed. In practice, not in theory. I still believe the approach is sound and works, but the work put behind balancing both equally is simply not there. The backlog of balance issues with PVP will require an entire dedicated patch; not some incremental "we changed sloads' but reviewing the degradation of PVP over the past 3 years and attempting to alleviate or outright remove some of the more blatantly imbalanced aspects that have occurred since then.

Cyro and PVP in general is too complicated from a design perspective. I mean I commend the team for at least trying to apply copious amounts of gauze to a gunshot wound but it's not going to stop the internal bleeding. It might be salvageable still, but Wheeler & CO need to try to stop any future gunshots instead of reacting to them.

One of the biggest issues with ESO is that any changes done to PVE has an affect on PVP and vice versa... they can't balance one with out it ruining the other. Well they could but they always tackle the problem the wrong way. For instance.. if Trial mobs are to strong and take to long to die they buff DPS of players instead of adjusting the NPC mobs. This then carries over to PVP because now players are hitting way to hard. Players then start doing to much damage in PVP so they nerf damage and now players struggle again in PVE.

They need to find a way to separate PVE and PVP so they can freely adjust one side of the house and not burn down the other.

That and they really need to steal some quality devs to help fix the mess that is ESO now!