Tanks in this game be like...

BejaProphet

Me: High resistances in this game is very important, and stacking it with other forms of mitigation is extremely powerful.

Tank 1: You are so wrong. Tanking in this game is all about blocking because tanking is about one shots.

Tank 2: You are so wrong. Resistances are worthless because of the way they stack. They aren't worth getting at all.

Tank 3: LOL, resistances are crap. I tank in medium armor.

Zenimax Online Studies: Hey guys, what are your biggest frustrations as tanks in this game?

Tank 1: Tanking is so stinking boring because you are forced to stand there perma-blocking all the time!

Tank 2: Being a tank is a joke because a light armor wearer can be harder to kill than me simply by casting shields!

Tank 3: I don't like where tanking is heading because one shots in the new dungeons can kill me even when I block it! Do you really want to create a game where tanks have to dodge roll attacks to survive?

BejaProphet

Well, it would be funnier if I could figure out how to make this pic link workhttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmjHOf0iYqTko0HD78V97-nKJRyWotUQ27YgwD59FSBquZ7k1RwQ

VaxtinTheWolf

BejaProphet wrote: »

Well, it would be funnier if I could figure out how to make this pic link workhttps://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmjHOf0iYqTko0HD78V97-nKJRyWotUQ27YgwD59FSBquZ7k1RwQ

Regular forum users that know be like:


Anyway.. I know, joke and all.. But I just want the possibility for any tank(and healer) race/class combination to be effective enough to be considered for any content in this game, not necessarily a copy of one another.

ZeroXFF

Trial tank here. I always advise to get to resist cap, because the last few points before the cap are the most effective. And while other sources of mitigation stack multiplicatively, they do add up, and allow you to have lower HP and be just as effective. A 10% boost to mitigation is equal to a 10% boost to health AND 10% healing received.

Yes, you usually can get away with less mitigation and just blocking, but having higher mitigation saves resources and allows you to be more self-sufficient without stacking regen stats too much.

BejaProphet

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Trial tank here. I always advise to get to resist cap, because the last few points before the cap are the most effective. And while other sources of mitigation stack multiplicatively, they do add up, and allow you to have lower HP and be just as effective. A 10% boost to mitigation is equal to a 10% boost to health AND 10% healing received.

Yes, you usually can get away with less mitigation and just blocking, but having higher mitigation saves resources and allows you to be more self-sufficient without stacking regen stats too much.

This guy gets it.

Merlin13KAGL

ZeroXFF wrote: »

Trial tank here. I always advise to get to resist cap, because the last few points before the cap are the most effective. And while other sources of mitigation stack multiplicatively, they do add up, and allow you to have lower HP and be just as effective. A 10% boost to mitigation is equal to a 10% boost to health AND 10% healing received.

Yes, you usually can get away with less mitigation and just blocking, but having higher mitigation saves resources and allows you to be more self-sufficient without stacking regen stats too much.

Indeed. There are also things you can't block that mitigation still reduces.

There is also the grand occasion when you miss a block. That's not the time you want to be rocking only 15k resists...

I've several tanks, each build being different, but only one Trials tank (He's always been my go-to and I've just never finished setting the other ones up for content of that level). People forget there are different ways to achieve the goal. The only problem currently is that there are a minor few that simply stand out a bit too much.

Septimus_Magna

Tanking most vet dungeons has become a joke with mediate. Just taunt, debuff, pull some adds in, restore to full rescources with mediate and repeat.

With 40k health, minor+major protection and 33k resist you dont really need to block much.

Merlin13KAGL

Most 4-man has never been too hard though, so long as you have a halfway decent build.

code65536

Nice strawmanning. Obviously none of those three tanks are endgame trials tanks. #2 in particular sounds like someone who's salty about sorcs in Cyrodiil.

No, I don't care about resistances. If you ask me what my resistances are or if I'm at cap, no, I can't tell you unless I log in and look at my character sheet.

Why don't I care about resistances? Because tanking isn't about what you can do for yourself, but what you can do for the group. If I'm the main tank I'm expected, in most cases, to provide as much penetration as possible, so I'm in Torug/Alkosh. It means that my weapons are infused and not defending. Whatever resistance I end up with in my Torug/Alkosh gear is what resistance I will run with. Gear (and by extension, resistances) are also highly situational. Which trial? Which boss? MT or OT? Sometimes, it's a good idea to put on Lord Warden for extra resistance for the tank and nearby allies (vHoF), and sometimes it's better for the tank to wear Earthgore instead (vCR). I can't tell you what my resistance is because I have a couple dozen different gear setups for different situations.

That said, I don't completely ignore resistances, and I do take the low-hanging fruit in terms of resistance maximization. So that means I wear 5p heavy armor. It means that, if possible, I'll try to make my belt the light piece and my gloves the medium piece, so that I lose the least amount from the 1M/1L. But beyond that, I don't pay attention to resistances.

The damage you encounter in vet DLC trials are either damage that you must avoid (mostly 1-shots from mistakes with the handling of mechanics) or damage that you must eat. And the damage that you must eat generally isn't high enough to warrant being selfish (which includes maximizing resistances). Which is why the needs of the group come first, and resistances are just "whatever you end up with". There are some exceptions. Most notably, if you're learning a new trial, it's not a bad idea to start selfish until you get used to things. And for vHoF boss 2, it's a good idea for the MT to wear Reactive.

tl;dr: Endgame tanks don't need to obsess over resistances. A tank's priority gear-wise is to wear what the group needs. And then you just make do with whatever resistance you happen to have.

Merlin13KAGL

Right there with @code65536 in the multiple setups. I vary a little for certain circumstances, but it depends on the group and the situation (and my personal experience with the content).

TL;DR; You want your mitigation to be as high as it can be with a given setup. You gear for the effects the gear provides first, armor class second, not the other way around.

BejaProphet

code65536 wrote: »

Nice strawmanning.

Its true. I didn't actually get some other tanks to slide over to my keyboard and type their lines. But every single one of the statements are things I've actually heard recently. In fact, if you just read the tanking feed back thread you'll hear all of it.

Did I intentionally place them in a specific order in the absence of their original context for a humorous rhetorical effect? Yes. Good catch.

BejaProphet

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

TL;DR; You want your mitigation to be as high as it can be with a given setup. You gear for the effects the gear provides first, armor class second, not the other way around.

This is what I'm trying to say. When I say these things everybody jumps to the assumption that I'm advocating we all go equip armor master and pariah. I personally wear Ebon+Alkosh. What I'm trying to say is the various little ways we maximize our health and mitigation while wearing these group boosting sets makes a HUGE difference.

idk

OP clearly has not spoken with to tanks. I laughed at the post. Figure it was made in humor.

EDIT: Saw Code's post. That is on the money. 100%

BejaProphet wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

TL;DR; You want your mitigation to be as high as it can be with a given setup. You gear for the effects the gear provides first, armor class second, not the other way around.

This is what I'm trying to say. When I say these things everybody jumps to the assumption that I'm advocating we all go equip armor master and pariah. I personally wear Ebon+Alkosh. What I'm trying to say is the various little ways we maximize our health and mitigation while wearing these group boosting sets makes a HUGE difference.

Your OP sounds more like complaining about tanking in this game.

BejaProphet

idk wrote: »

OP clearly has not spoken with to tanks. I laughed at the post. Figure it was made in humor.

EDIT: Saw Code's post. That is on the money. 100%

BejaProphet wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

TL;DR; You want your mitigation to be as high as it can be with a given setup. You gear for the effects the gear provides first, armor class second, not the other way around.

This is what I'm trying to say. When I say these things everybody jumps to the assumption that I'm advocating we all go equip armor master and pariah. I personally wear Ebon+Alkosh. What I'm trying to say is the various little ways we maximize our health and mitigation while wearing these group boosting sets makes a HUGE difference.

Your OP sounds more like complaining about tanking in this game.

Perhaps I'm just not as clever as I thought. My original post was trying to make the point that tanks in this game constantly say mitigation is worthless, then they turn around and complain about how they are not tanky.

My point is that their failure to pursue being mitigation/beingtanky, is actually the root of the problems they are complaining about. Yet they can't seem to recognize that.

I think ZOS has done an amazing job and tanking is in a fabulous place right now. (With some more help to catch other classes up to DK still needed).

idk

idk wrote: »

OP clearly has not spoken with to tanks. I laughed at the post. Figure it was made in humor.

EDIT: Saw Codes post. That is on the money. 100%

BejaProphet wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP clearly has not spoken with to tanks. I laughed at the post. Figure it was made in humor.

EDIT: Saw Code's post. That is on the money. 100%

BejaProphet wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

TL;DR; You want your mitigation to be as high as it can be with a given setup. You gear for the effects the gear provides first, armor class second, not the other way around.

This is what I'm trying to say. When I say these things everybody jumps to the assumption that I'm advocating we all go equip armor master and pariah. I personally wear Ebon+Alkosh. What I'm trying to say is the various little ways we maximize our health and mitigation while wearing these group boosting sets makes a HUGE difference.

Your OP sounds more like complaining about tanking in this game.

Perhaps I'm just not as clever as I thought. My original post was trying to make the point that tanks in this game constantly say mitigation is worthless, then they turn around and complain about how they are not tanky.

My point is that their failure to pursue being mitigation/beingtanky, is actually the root of the problems they are complaining about. Yet they can't seem to recognize that.

I think ZOS has done an amazing job and tanking is in a fabulous place right now. (With some more help to catch other classes up to DK still needed).

It seems more about the tanks you associate with, maybe.

ZOs did not make tanking amazing. The top groups and tanks made tanking amazing starting with the release of MoL and understanding they could use newer sets that were not really intended for tanking such as Alkosh and more. They thought outside of the box.

It is as simple as that. Tanks like Woeler, and others like him. Top raid leaders probably also played a role.

BejaProphet

idk wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP clearly has not spoken with to tanks. I laughed at the post. Figure it was made in humor.

EDIT: Saw Codes post. That is on the money. 100%

BejaProphet wrote: »

idk wrote: »

OP clearly has not spoken with to tanks. I laughed at the post. Figure it was made in humor.

EDIT: Saw Code's post. That is on the money. 100%

BejaProphet wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

TL;DR; You want your mitigation to be as high as it can be with a given setup. You gear for the effects the gear provides first, armor class second, not the other way around.

This is what I'm trying to say. When I say these things everybody jumps to the assumption that I'm advocating we all go equip armor master and pariah. I personally wear Ebon+Alkosh. What I'm trying to say is the various little ways we maximize our health and mitigation while wearing these group boosting sets makes a HUGE difference.

Your OP sounds more like complaining about tanking in this game.

Perhaps I'm just not as clever as I thought. My original post was trying to make the point that tanks in this game constantly say mitigation is worthless, then they turn around and complain about how they are not tanky.

My point is that their failure to pursue being mitigation/beingtanky, is actually the root of the problems they are complaining about. Yet they can't seem to recognize that.

I think ZOS has done an amazing job and tanking is in a fabulous place right now. (With some more help to catch other classes up to DK still needed).

It seems more about the tanks you associate with, maybe.

ZOs did not make tanking amazing. The top groups and tanks made tanking amazing starting with the release of MoL and understanding they could use newer sets that were not really intended for tanking such as Alkosh and more. They thought outside of the box.

It is as simple as that. Tanks like Woeler, and others like him. Top raid leaders probably also played a role.

I guess I'll just have to end there. I'm confused. At first you think I'm just complaining so you want to devalue my statements, then you find out that I actually like the game so you seek to devalue my statements. In neither cases making any constructive points. So we can end with your point. Woeler and the leet dudes built all this awesome. I'm glad they did. I'm having fun tanking.

Royaji

Welp, great job taking all those quotes out of context to make a point. Everyone is wrong and I'm right is definitely one of your favorite traits. I'm your "Tank 3". And yes, I don't like the direction tanking is going.

Stacking resistances is worthless. You have to sacrifice too much since every other source of resistance makes your previous sources weaker. Dodging is just that much easier. And you don't have to sacrifice anything. Ever thought that roll-dodge is just 100% mitigation for 3 seconds? And it's so cheap and accessible. And it even prevents all those unblockable stuns and allows you to deal with any mechanic overlap so easily!

So what my issue is? I don't feel that dodging is something a tank should do. I associate tanking with shields and I want to use my damn shield to block stuff. No matter how hard the stuff hits. The moment it becomes easier to dodge than make my blocking work it's no longer fun for me as a tank.

And no. I'm not going to sacrifice my group support for selfish resistances. Because I can dodge.

Marginis

I think it's less people who like tanking in different ways and more people who have different opinions on how tanks should work. First we have ZOS, who wants tanks to be a certain way but has trouble implementing a system that encourages that. Second, we have the meta players who think that you have to use [insert build here] to be a viable tank. Then we have players who want to make niche builds and think that you should be able to build a tank with anything, even if it's light armor and a bow or naked and fists. And of course we can't forget those who think they're experts on tanking because they looked up a build on youtube and copy/pasted it into their game.

BejaProphet

Royaji wrote: »

Welp, great job taking all those quotes out of context to make a point. Everyone is wrong and I'm right is definitely one of your favorite traits. I'm your "Tank 3". And yes, I don't like the direction tanking is going.

Stacking resistances is worthless. You have to sacrifice too much since every other source of resistance makes your previous sources weaker. Dodging is just that much easier. And you don't have to sacrifice anything. Ever thought that roll-dodge is just 100% mitigation for 3 seconds? And it's so cheap and accessible. And it even prevents all those unblockable stuns and allows you to deal with any mechanic overlap so easily!

So what my issue is? I don't feel that dodging is something a tank should do. I associate tanking with shields and I want to use my damn shield to block stuff. No matter how hard the stuff hits. The moment it becomes easier to dodge than make my blocking work it's no longer fun for me as a tank.

And no. I'm not going to sacrifice my group support for selfish resistances. Because I can dodge.

Well, on one hand I truly dislike that I've caused you angst. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that. But on the other hand I'm feeling pretty validated right now because people thought I was making this up.

Merlin13KAGL

While the set meta doesn't usually have a whole lot of variances these days (one of the chief pain points, as I recall), there are different ways to build.

Every player is different, every playstyle is different. Tanking, especially, is about finding that balance of everything that works for you. Things as subtle as an individuals timing can greatly affect the outcome of the same fight.

It's not as simple as copying a Liofa build and strolling into vAS/vHoF/vCR and automatically tearing it up.

The ultimate goal will normally be to get to what Code described, but there are lots of tiers in between. As such, there is no simple one-size-fits-all answer to your original question.

BejaProphet

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

While the set meta doesn't usually have a whole lot of variances these days (one of the chief pain points, as I recall), there are different ways to build.

Every player is different, every playstyle is different. Tanking, especially, is about finding that balance of everything that works for you. Things as subtle as an individuals timing can greatly affect the outcome of the same fight.

It's not as simple as copying a Liofa build and strolling into vAS/vHoF/vCR and automatically tearing it up.

The ultimate goal will normally be to get to what Code described, but there are lots of tiers in between. As such, there is no simple one-size-fits-all answer to your original question.

You say a ton of truth here. But for the record, nowhere in this thread was I meaning to talk about trials. Anytime you speak on this forum everybody assumes you are talking about trials. What is breaking my heart on these forums is that everybody just assumes we are talking about how to tank with two dedicated healers, 8 damage dealers and a well oiled rotations of shards and spears, then under the assumption we are always talking about how to squeak out the last extra dps on vet dlc trials...all these trial tanks talk down these other things as "selfish" until we literally having people thinking its selfish for a tank to put on heavy armor. Then the poor soul wonders why its not working for him like it is for the big trial tanks.

My hope is not to persuade the trial tanks of anything. My hope is that somebody struggling to learn how to tank veteran dungeons will read a thread like this and suddenly realize its okay for them to make a real tank. Putting on some heavy armor isn't selfish. Spec'ing for some mitigation isn't selfish. YES, get those group boosting sets. I love them. I use them. But your group gains nothing from their tank putting his points into stamina and magicka attributes. Only do that if it helps you. Get the health you need! Groups gain nothing from you using 5/1/1. Only do that if you are comfortably tanky enough and you need the stats instead. It's ok to run 7 heavy for the mitigation, there is no selfish aspect to that! Its ok to reinforce your chest piece, or make other choices to make you more tanky.

Merlin13KAGL

Personally, I wasn't assuming trials tank. There are DLC 4 man dungeons that are also not a walk in the park.

I used those particular examples because they are probably the hardest and most demanding content in the game.

My original point being, there is no one answer to the question.

If you're not leaderboarding and your group can manage a clear on any content, then I'd say whatever your doing works. There are always ways to make it work better, though.

Absolutely, when learning new content, and especially when just learning to tank in general, anything goes. If it helps you survive, if it helps your group maintain, then you are never doing it wrong. Rule #1: You've gotta survive first and foremost.

As you improve and get more comfortable with your build and your capabilities as a player, then you can advance, and you can advance your build.

Things ultimately gravitate towards trials tank discussions because the content tends to be harder, the builds tend to vary less, and it's kind of the high point of any role, in many ways.

But for four man, while learning and improving, if it keeps you and your group upright, there is no wrong answer.

Learning is part of the process. (Those builds are great, but they're worth far more if you understand "Why," not just "What.")

And as far as 2 dedicated healers, and 8 dps assumption, some of my personal favorite trials scenarios involve no healers and no dps...just a tank, some adds, and sometimes the boss having a nice little self-sustained talk in the corner.

Some of the best scenarios are when you have zero support, because you're tying to give your group a chance to recover.

There are damage tanks, there are buff tanks, there are heal tanks, and there are self sufficient tanks. They all have their place and time.

Merlin13KAGL

Just as you proceed differently when (first) attempting a No Death / Speed Run / Hard Mode, the standard for one person may not be the same as for another. Doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

Oxalias

Meanwhile pvp tanks are virtually dead, and no one seems to care. Damage has gone up over the years but damage mitigation hasnt kept up.

huschdeguddzje

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tanking most vet dungeons has become a joke with mediate. Just taunt, debuff, pull some adds in, restore to full rescources with mediate and repeat.

With 40k health, minor+major protection and 33k resist you dont really need to block much.

What class are you tanking on?

Tasear

huschdeguddzje wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Tanking most vet dungeons has become a joke with mediate. Just taunt, debuff, pull some adds in, restore to full rescources with mediate and repeat.

With 40k health, minor+major protection and 33k resist you dont really need to block much.

What class are you tanking on?

Sounds like warden, or nightblade, but ideal really works with all classes.