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In Defense of Major Defile and Befoul

  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    Checkmath wrote: »
    @GrumpyDuckling
    i didnt say it needs to change because people dont use quick recovery or blessed cp trees. i said, that people less use those two, since they offer small effects for too many points, while you need to sacrifice defense or damage for it. meanwhile befoul scales very high with defile and only sacrificing some sustain with all the proc sets around is no sacrifice at all.

    and now pls elaborate which class really have acces to which of the mending or vitality buffs and compare again.

    Please see the first post of the thread, in which I say, "most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more," and see the list.

    sry but here i just disagree with you.

    templars have minor mending
    dks have major mending and minor vitality
    wardens have major mending
    sorcs....nothing
    nightblades have minor vitaility and major mending tied to an ultimate

    (i am sure, that i forgot something)
    there is major mending tied to a resto heavy attack.
    now say again how the healing buffs are comon and everyone has access to all those buffs.
    but major defile is tied to a lot of skills.

    Not sure what you're disagreeing about. Here are 8 realistic healing buffs/strengthening tactics for any build, regardless of class.

    Health Recovery
    Blessed (champion point node)
    Quick Recovery (champion point node)
    Elfborn (champion point node) and/or Precise Strikes (champion point node)
    Healing can crit (defile does not)
    Healing scales with max attribute (defile does not)
    Healing scales with spell/weapon damage (defile does not)
    Powered Trait (no defiling trait counter)

    This is just bare minimum for any build. Most builds are easily capable of more.

    Edit: Oh, and if you want to talk about how major defile is tied to a lot of skills, then you also have to consider that healing is available from a lot of skills, and those different healing skills allow you to stack heals on yourself (unlike defile skills, because you can't stack a major debuff on itself from multiple skills).

    If you really want to include health regen and that "healing scales with attributes and damage + can crit" thingy you should at least be honest enough to acknowledge that defile is always a X% healing nerf. If my healing should heal for 3k or 4.5k buffed your defile will always take away X%, no matter if critted or not. Therefore it kinda scales with the attributes and stats of your opponent. Your benefit is bigger if their heals are bigger.

    And "you can stack multiple sources of healing" also means investing multiple slots, CGDs and resources into it, while a defile affects them all simultaniously. As most of your means to boost healing have high opportunity costs (ritual stone, powered weapons) while e.g. a reverb, incap or snipe have very little opportunity costs in comparison. Same goes for CP, if you even play with them. Healing boosts are in the blue and red tree and scale badly, you give something important up for that. While is the best scaling star and also in the green tree.

    I did acknowledge that defile is percentage based and never suggested that it wasn't. See bold part of first post of thread.

    Your comment where you say, "And 'you can stack multiple sources of healing' also means investing multiple slots, CGDs and resources into it, while a defile affects them all simultaniously" is the reason I suggest defiling is accessible and scales so high. There is so much invested in healing in this game from so many areas that to counterbalance it, there is accessibility to and high scaling of defile. See bold part of first post of thread.
  • sly007
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    Lol, I will not offer anything constructive.



















    LOL.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    I've read that part and yet you're completely ignoring that it horribly overshoots. Yes, healbots were/ are an issue. Yes, it was intended to also counter permablockhealcasting troll tanks. All fine and good. Those who build to troll got a counter, nice. But in the process it wrecks everyone who does not invest a substantial part of his build into healing - all with little effort or investment on it's own.

    You say you acknowledge that it's percentage based but yet you're still posting stuff like "heals scale with attritbutes and stats", implying that defile does not and is therefore at an disadvantage. But it is not, it's the other way around. Like a proc set, you can invest into health, defense, survivability and still it does the same damage, or in this case, the same % of debuffing. What stops me from putting on several proc sets with everything into health and still annoy the hearthland of Tamriel? Nothing, just like with durok's + Proc X + Proc Y and a huge amount of health. Don't know, be it Sload's and Skoria, or Caluurion and Zaans. Some would call that cheese.

    There is so little investment for such a big benefit. If befoul would be in the blue tree, you'd have to make a decision. Higher damage, higher healing or higher debuffing. But it isn't. If major defile wasn't on bread and butter skills like reverb, incap and snipe, which are all nice on their own, but instead on some "subpar" skills that are not tied to instant CCs or on an seemingly overload high damage spammable ult with a buff and a CC or on a high damage skill with one of the longest ranges, you'd have to make a decision. But it isn't. If it wasn't on an AoE no cooldown 5 piece set, it would look different. See, nobody mentions cyrodiils crest. 1v1 it also grants potantially 100% uptime, but it isn't some freaking AoE that procs on taking damage, CyCr isn't a free "I debuff the crap out of y'all without doing anything myself" set.

    You can negate so much investment of your opponent in his build without invest much on your own. 1 debuff via 1 skill or set and you can tune down each an every avaible heal your opponent has. If he chooses to slot 6 HoTs, so be it. He gives something up for that. You on the other hand don't, since it get's thrown around like candy. Another point where we disagree.

    Tl;dr: add real opportunity costs to such a strong debuff or simply tune it down. But what you call a balanced state isn't achieveable for non-zergers - ironically where defile doesn't really matter anyways.

  • NightbladeMechanics
    NightbladeMechanics
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    ok lets do some math then with the typical healbot class, alright?
    if i make any mistakes in my calculation, pls say so.
    a typical pvp healbot is in heavy armor, has around 30% crit, 37k magicka and around 2.5k spelldamage on his backbar. this results in a base breath of life of around 10k. with minor and major sorcer he reaches around 3.1k spelldamage and a breath of life tooltip of around 11.2k. now lets take an unbuffed breath of life of 10k as baseline.
    a heavy armor magplar has access to the following increasing healing done bonus: 8% from minor mending plus from the cp tree blessed. from passives he gets additional 12% at max when low health. lets assume he has 27 points in blesses, resulting in 7% more healing done. ok now the math: 10k*(1+0.08+0.07)=11500 healing (we leave the 12% out, since it only counts when practically dead). now lets half that, since battlespirit is there: 5750 healing.
    ok now we get to the healing received part, where defile comes in too. lets assume our templar has 27 points (7%) into qick recovery and is defiled with basic major defile: 5750*(1+0.07-0.3)=4428 healing, which is already less than the base.
    with major and minor defile its 5750*(1+0.07-0.3-0.15)=3565
    now the enemy has also a lots in befoul, lets say 100 points (was 55% more defile, right?)
    5750*(1+0.07-.465-0.2325)=2142 healing with a breath of life, when the base skill heals for 5k in pvp?

    ok now the hardcorecase: templar is fully buffed with around 3.1k spelldamage, with the 12% healing from the pretty much dead passive and does a crit against fully defiled:
    11.2k/2=5.6k (after battlespirit)
    5600*(1+0.08+0.12+0.07)=7112
    7112*1.6=11379 with the crit healing
    11379*(1+0.07-0.465-0.2325)=4239....still less than the original tooltip unbuffed in pvp, and this is the healbot class. such a heal has probably around a 30% chance, otherwise its around 2.3k maybe.

    so back why defile and befoul is problematic: there are too many sources of defile and its too easy to apply defile (constantly). befoul does more than it should. the counters to defile like healing done and received, so basically major/ minor mending and vitality are not accessible for most of the classes (healer class has only minor mending) and with a decent amount of cps spent into blessed or quick recovery you get not enough to counter.

    Due to the Vengeance CP passive (left side blue tree), blocking magicka healbots actually have an effective 100% crit chance.

    Guildy demonstrating:

    https://youtu.be/8aJhgf8WY98
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    Here's a great thread collecting community ideas for PvP updates.

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  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    I've read that part and yet you're completely ignoring that it horribly overshoots. Yes, healbots were/ are an issue. Yes, it was intended to also counter permablockhealcasting troll tanks. All fine and good. Those who build to troll got a counter, nice. But in the process it wrecks everyone who does not invest a substantial part of his build into healing - all with little effort or investment on it's own.

    You say you acknowledge that it's percentage based but yet you're still posting stuff like "heals scale with attritbutes and stats", implying that defile does not and is therefore at an disadvantage. But it is not, it's the other way around. Like a proc set, you can invest into health, defense, survivability and still it does the same damage, or in this case, the same % of debuffing. What stops me from putting on several proc sets with everything into health and still annoy the hearthland of Tamriel? Nothing, just like with durok's + Proc X + Proc Y and a huge amount of health. Don't know, be it Sload's and Skoria, or Caluurion and Zaans. Some would call that cheese.

    There is so little investment for such a big benefit. If befoul would be in the blue tree, you'd have to make a decision. Higher damage, higher healing or higher debuffing. But it isn't. If major defile wasn't on bread and butter skills like reverb, incap and snipe, which are all nice on their own, but instead on some "subpar" skills that are not tied to instant CCs or on an seemingly overload high damage spammable ult with a buff and a CC or on a high damage skill with one of the longest ranges, you'd have to make a decision. But it isn't. If it wasn't on an AoE no cooldown 5 piece set, it would look different. See, nobody mentions cyrodiils crest. 1v1 it also grants potantially 100% uptime, but it isn't some freaking AoE that procs on taking damage, CyCr isn't a free "I debuff the crap out of y'all without doing anything myself" set.

    You can negate so much investment of your opponent in his build without invest much on your own. 1 debuff via 1 skill or set and you can tune down each an every avaible heal your opponent has. If he chooses to slot 6 HoTs, so be it. He gives something up for that. You on the other hand don't, since it get's thrown around like candy. Another point where we disagree.

    Tl;dr: add real opportunity costs to such a strong debuff or simply tune it down. But what you call a balanced state isn't achieveable for non-zergers - ironically where defile doesn't really matter anyways.

    "You say you acknowledge that it's percentage based but yet you're still posting stuff like 'heals scale with attritbutes and stats', implying that defile does not and is therefore at an disadvantage."

    I didn't imply it, I said it (see first post of the thread). Defiling does not scale with attributes and stats, but healing does.

    Attribute and stat scaling are one of the many benefits that factor into healing. There are many factors that go into buffing and strengthening healing. To counterbalance all the healing factors, defiling is accessible and scales higher.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    I've read that part and yet you're completely ignoring that it horribly overshoots. Yes, healbots were/ are an issue. Yes, it was intended to also counter permablockhealcasting troll tanks. All fine and good. Those who build to troll got a counter, nice. But in the process it wrecks everyone who does not invest a substantial part of his build into healing - all with little effort or investment on it's own.

    You say you acknowledge that it's percentage based but yet you're still posting stuff like "heals scale with attritbutes and stats", implying that defile does not and is therefore at an disadvantage. But it is not, it's the other way around. Like a proc set, you can invest into health, defense, survivability and still it does the same damage, or in this case, the same % of debuffing. What stops me from putting on several proc sets with everything into health and still annoy the hearthland of Tamriel? Nothing, just like with durok's + Proc X + Proc Y and a huge amount of health. Don't know, be it Sload's and Skoria, or Caluurion and Zaans. Some would call that cheese.

    There is so little investment for such a big benefit. If befoul would be in the blue tree, you'd have to make a decision. Higher damage, higher healing or higher debuffing. But it isn't. If major defile wasn't on bread and butter skills like reverb, incap and snipe, which are all nice on their own, but instead on some "subpar" skills that are not tied to instant CCs or on an seemingly overload high damage spammable ult with a buff and a CC or on a high damage skill with one of the longest ranges, you'd have to make a decision. But it isn't. If it wasn't on an AoE no cooldown 5 piece set, it would look different. See, nobody mentions cyrodiils crest. 1v1 it also grants potantially 100% uptime, but it isn't some freaking AoE that procs on taking damage, CyCr isn't a free "I debuff the crap out of y'all without doing anything myself" set.

    You can negate so much investment of your opponent in his build without invest much on your own. 1 debuff via 1 skill or set and you can tune down each an every avaible heal your opponent has. If he chooses to slot 6 HoTs, so be it. He gives something up for that. You on the other hand don't, since it get's thrown around like candy. Another point where we disagree.

    Tl;dr: add real opportunity costs to such a strong debuff or simply tune it down. But what you call a balanced state isn't achieveable for non-zergers - ironically where defile doesn't really matter anyways.

    "You say you acknowledge that it's percentage based but yet you're still posting stuff like 'heals scale with attritbutes and stats', implying that defile does not and is therefore at an disadvantage."

    I didn't imply it, I said it (see first post of the thread). Defiling does not scale with attributes and stats, but healing does.

    Attribute and stat scaling are one of the many benefits that factor into healing. There are many factors that go into buffing and strengthening healing. To counterbalance all the healing factors, defiling is accessible and scales higher.

    I guess we have to agree to disagree here. If I could get the same X of healing without putting stuff into the giving resource, I'd be much happier. But you know, I have to invest stuff elsewhere too. The other resource and regen (stam on a mag build), penetration, health etc. All while I have to invest not a single stat or set boni and defile still does it's thing.

    So from my pov it's an advantage for defile that we don't have to actually build for it to be effective.
  • Joy_Division
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    I know there are some of you who will vehemently disagree with a stance to keep Major Defile and Befoul in its current state, but please take the time to consider the following reason for why Major Defile and Befoul should remain the same, at least for now:

    The defiling quartet of Major Defile, Minor Defile, Befoul, and Siphoner has to compete against ~17 ways to buff and/or strengthen healing. Most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more:

    Major Mending
    Minor Mending
    Major Vitality
    Minor Vitality
    Healing Done
    Healing Received
    Healing Taken
    Health Recovery
    Blessed (champion point node)
    Quick Recovery (champion point node)
    Elfborn (champion point node)
    Precise Strikes (champion point node)
    Healing can crit (defile does not)
    Healing scales with max attribute (defile does not)
    Healing scales with spell/weapon damage (defile does not)
    Ritual Stone (no defiling mundus stone counter)
    Powered Trait (no defiling trait counter)

    Yes, Major Defile and Minor Defile offer higher percentages and are often easier to access than Major Mending and Minor Mending, and yes the scaling on Befoul is high, but it stands to reason that these decisions were made to create counterbalance that combats the multitude of benefits that factor into healing.

    When you consider all of the above, I think it's logical to conclude that ZOS has done a solid job with the current state of defiling in ESO. I hope it remains roughly the same, at least for now.

    Edit on 6/13/18 -- Added Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Blessed, and Quick Recovery to the list.

    This is all on paper. There is zero chance in a competitive PvP fight on a competitive PvP build that actually wants to kill people is going to have all those healing multipliers.

    Meanwhile anyone can slap on a disease enchant or better yet just put on a durok's bane set (easier still with jewelry transmorg) and put 100% uptime with a ridiculously scaling befoul from CP which requires zero sacrifice from offensive CPs. Or worse yet, any NB without any gear from an overloaded cheap ultimate that also stuns me and amps their damage.

    Point: it is too easy trivial to delete an opponent's healing without much sacrifice. You may deem this necessary because you hate "healbots" but defile destroys people who aren't healbots, which results in the very thing you don't want to see: more block builds that invest so much into damage reduction because if they don;t they're dead.

    Moreover, it absoultely makes me want to throw my computer out the window that my magplars healing has been absolutely gutted without defile/befoul, all my good defense skills have been taken away, leaving me with little choice but to rely on block and reactive healing and there is stiil this vendetta out there by people who hate "healbots." How exactly am I supposed to defend myself without healing? That's all my class does! And as far as that list goes, you can add 20 more things to it but in actually Cyordiil (or worse, Batttelgrounds where my stats are crap and I don't have the healing amps that were stolen from my class because of the champion system, this is what my "healbot" is relegated as the only means to defend itself:

    kRbaBBd.png

    and

    e9UeU2c.jpg

    And still ZOS keeps nerfing Breath of Life. Can I have back blinding Flashes please?

    Playing while perma-defile is to the point where it's log out, I'm not dealing with this crap anymore.
    Edited by Joy_Division on June 14, 2018 4:56PM
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    I know there are some of you who will vehemently disagree with a stance to keep Major Defile and Befoul in its current state, but please take the time to consider the following reason for why Major Defile and Befoul should remain the same, at least for now:

    The defiling quartet of Major Defile, Minor Defile, Befoul, and Siphoner has to compete against ~17 ways to buff and/or strengthen healing. Most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more:

    Major Mending
    Minor Mending
    Major Vitality
    Minor Vitality
    Healing Done
    Healing Received
    Healing Taken
    Health Recovery
    Blessed (champion point node)
    Quick Recovery (champion point node)
    Elfborn (champion point node)
    Precise Strikes (champion point node)
    Healing can crit (defile does not)
    Healing scales with max attribute (defile does not)
    Healing scales with spell/weapon damage (defile does not)
    Ritual Stone (no defiling mundus stone counter)
    Powered Trait (no defiling trait counter)

    Yes, Major Defile and Minor Defile offer higher percentages and are often easier to access than Major Mending and Minor Mending, and yes the scaling on Befoul is high, but it stands to reason that these decisions were made to create counterbalance that combats the multitude of benefits that factor into healing.

    When you consider all of the above, I think it's logical to conclude that ZOS has done a solid job with the current state of defiling in ESO. I hope it remains roughly the same, at least for now.

    Edit on 6/13/18 -- Added Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Blessed, and Quick Recovery to the list.

    This is all on paper. There is zero chance in a competitive PvP fight on a competitive PvP build that actually wants to kill people is going to have all those healing multipliers.

    Meanwhile anyone can slap on a disease enchant or better yet just put on a durok's bane set (easier still with jewelry transmorg) and put 100% uptime with a ridiculously scaling befoul from CP which requires zero sacrifice from offensive CPs. Or worse yet, any NB without any gear from an overloaded cheap ultimate that also stuns me and amps their damage.

    Point: it is too easy trivial to delete an opponent's healing without much sacrifice. You may deem this necessary because you hate "heal =bots" but defile destroys people who aren't healbots, which results in the very thing you don't want to see: more block builds that invest so much into damage because if they don;t they're dead.

    Moreover, it absoultely makes me want to throw my computer out the window that my magplars healing has been absolutely gutted without defile/befoul, all my good defense skills have been taken away, leaving me with little choice but to rely on block and reactive healing and there is stiil this vendetta out there by people who hate "healbots." How exactly am I supposed to defend myself without healing? That's all my class does! And as far as that list goes, you can add 20 more things to it but in actually Cyordiil (or worse, Batttelgrounds where my stats are crap and I don't have the healing amps that were stolen from my class because of the champion system, this is what my "healbot" is relegated as the only means to defend itself:

    kRbaBBd.png

    and

    e9UeU2c.jpg

    And still ZOS keeps nerfing Breath of Life. Can I have back blinding Flashes please?

    Playing while perma-defile is to the point where it's log out, I'm not dealing with this crap anymore.

    "This is all on paper. There is zero chance in a competitive PvP fight on a competitive PvP build that actually wants to kill people is going to have all those healing multipliers."

    I'm not sure with who or what you're arguing about with the above statement. No one suggested that a competitive PVP build that actually wants to kill people is going to have "all" of the listed healing multipliers. The first post of the thread clearly states that out of the ~17 healing buffs/strengthening tactics, "most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more." The entire point of the thread is that there are 17 potential healing buffs/strengthening tactics that 4 potential defiling tactics have to try to keep in check.

    On to what you refer to as your point, where you say "it is too easy trivial to delete an opponent's healing without much sacrifice."

    The statement about "delet[ing] an opponent's healing without much sacrifice" is both hyperbole and a subjective statement. No, healing is not deleted and sacrifices are certainly made. Some examples of sacrifices that are made include:

    1) More points into befoul means less points for sustain, block, roll dodge, and other green nodes.
    2) Your example of Durok's Bane means that a player is sacrificing a 5 piece bonus that will only apply when/if attacked by an enemy.
    3) Your example of a disease enchant means that the player bases the defile on an RNG percentage, which upon activation last for 4 seconds, and then hits a cooldown period.
    4) Your example of the Nightblade ultimate focuses in on a single target ultimate attack. This is where we get subjective because I think this is sacrifice by the player using it. I'd much rather face a dodgeable, and often predictable single target ultimate, than an undodgeable AOE ultimate while an enemy spams a gap closer with an immovable pot active.

    I definitely understand that you're frustrated with more than just the defile (as you expressed your temptation to throw a computer out the window when referencing class heal decisions), but the 17 potential healing buffs/strengthening tactics vs. the 4 potential defiling tactics point to healing vs. defiling being in a good place, for now.

    Edit: Clarity
    Edited by GrumpyDuckling on June 14, 2018 6:21AM
  • Gnozo
    Gnozo
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    I know there are some of you who will vehemently disagree with a stance to keep Major Defile and Befoul in its current state, but please take the time to consider the following reason for why Major Defile and Befoul should remain the same, at least for now:

    The defiling quartet of Major Defile, Minor Defile, Befoul, and Siphoner has to compete against ~17 ways to buff and/or strengthen healing. Most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more:

    Major Mending
    Minor Mending
    Major Vitality
    Minor Vitality
    Healing Done
    Healing Received
    Healing Taken
    Health Recovery
    Blessed (champion point node)
    Quick Recovery (champion point node)
    Elfborn (champion point node)
    Precise Strikes (champion point node)
    Healing can crit (defile does not)
    Healing scales with max attribute (defile does not)
    Healing scales with spell/weapon damage (defile does not)
    Ritual Stone (no defiling mundus stone counter)
    Powered Trait (no defiling trait counter)

    Yes, Major Defile and Minor Defile offer higher percentages and are often easier to access than Major Mending and Minor Mending, and yes the scaling on Befoul is high, but it stands to reason that these decisions were made to create counterbalance that combats the multitude of benefits that factor into healing.

    When you consider all of the above, I think it's logical to conclude that ZOS has done a solid job with the current state of defiling in ESO. I hope it remains roughly the same, at least for now.

    Edit on 6/13/18 -- Added Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Blessed, and Quick Recovery to the list.

    This is all on paper. There is zero chance in a competitive PvP fight on a competitive PvP build that actually wants to kill people is going to have all those healing multipliers.

    Meanwhile anyone can slap on a disease enchant or better yet just put on a durok's bane set (easier still with jewelry transmorg) and put 100% uptime with a ridiculously scaling befoul from CP which requires zero sacrifice from offensive CPs. Or worse yet, any NB without any gear from an overloaded cheap ultimate that also stuns me and amps their damage.

    Point: it is too easy trivial to delete an opponent's healing without much sacrifice. You may deem this necessary because you hate "heal =bots" but defile destroys people who aren't healbots, which results in the very thing you don't want to see: more block builds that invest so much into damage because if they don;t they're dead.

    Moreover, it absoultely makes me want to throw my computer out the window that my magplars healing has been absolutely gutted without defile/befoul, all my good defense skills have been taken away, leaving me with little choice but to rely on block and reactive healing and there is stiil this vendetta out there by people who hate "healbots." How exactly am I supposed to defend myself without healing? That's all my class does! And as far as that list goes, you can add 20 more things to it but in actually Cyordiil (or worse, Batttelgrounds where my stats are crap and I don't have the healing amps that were stolen from my class because of the champion system, this is what my "healbot" is relegated as the only means to defend itself:

    kRbaBBd.png

    and

    e9UeU2c.jpg

    And still ZOS keeps nerfing Breath of Life. Can I have back blinding Flashes please?

    Playing while perma-defile is to the point where it's log out, I'm not dealing with this crap anymore.

    "This is all on paper. There is zero chance in a competitive PvP fight on a competitive PvP build that actually wants to kill people is going to have all those healing multipliers."

    I'm not sure with who or what you're arguing about with the above statement. No one suggested that a competitive PVP build that actually wants to kill people is going to have "all" of the listed healing multipliers. The first post of the thread clearly states that out of the ~17 healing buffs/strengthening tactics, "most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more." The entire point of the thread is that there are 17 potential healing buffs/strengthening tactics that 4 potential defiling tactics have to try to keep in check.

    On to what you refer to as your point, where you say "it is too easy trivial to delete an opponent's healing without much sacrifice."

    The statement about "delet[ing] an opponent's healing without much sacrifice" is both hyperbole and a subjective statement. No, healing is not deleted and sacrifices are certainly made. Some examples of sacrifices that are made include:

    1) More points into befoul means less points for sustain, block, roll dodge, and other green nodes.
    2) Your example of Durok's Bane means that a player is sacrificing a 5 piece bonus that will only apply when/if attacked by an enemy.
    3) Your example of a disease enchant means that the player bases the defile on an RNG percentage, which upon activation last for 4 seconds, and then hits a cooldown period.
    4) Your example of the Nightblade ultimate focuses in on a single target ultimate attack. This is where we get subjective because I think this is sacrifice by the player using it. I'd much rather face a dodgeable, and often predictable single target ultimate, than an undodgeable AOE ultimate while an enemy spams a gap closer with an immovable pot active.

    I definitely understand that you're frustrated with more than just the defile (as you expressed your temptation to throw a computer out the window when referencing class heal decisions), but the 17 potential healing buffs/strengthening tactics vs. the 4 potential defiling tactics point to healing vs. defiling being in a good place, for now.

    Edit: Clarity

    Its not. How can u not See this? Everyone can get defile. And buff it crazy with befoul.

    How is a stamina sorc supposed to get any healing buff?

    Befoul is just overperforming. It changes a debuff that should stay a Flat value. 30% is more then enough and paired with minor defile u get 45% .this is enough. And balanced cause u need 2 debuffs to get this number.

    With befoul u can get about 43% defile just from major defile. And this dont take much points tho. Change befoul to something else and dont make a debuff "buffable". Stay with the Flat value of 30 and 15.
  • Checkmath
    Checkmath
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    Now it gets ridiculous....nightblades make a sacrifice with slotting incap....
    About everything else you were saying with „there are so many hots and mechanics to make healing better“: if you play like this, you arent competitive anymore. Like the statement of having minor and major mending on your class based on gear and backbar weapon...you arent competitive wearing a heal staff on most of the classes. Minor mending from gear, you are joking right? Healing taken bonus from sets, so sanctuary set or something with a healing taken bonus...again you arent competitive anymore. Powered trait and ritual mundus...not competitive.
    Everything is not competitive which „could“ increase healing. There is too much sacrifice compared to slotting duroks bane, incap or putting points into befoul, because with both you are competitive with pretty much zero drawback.
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Healbots are overperforming, defile is overperforming.


    And everyone in the middle is just screwed basically.
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    Healbots are overperforming, defile is overperforming.


    And everyone in the middle is just screwed basically.

    How to summarize the issue with two sentences.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    On to what you refer to as your point, where you say "it is too easy trivial to delete an opponent's healing without much sacrifice."

    The statement about "delet[ing] an opponent's healing without much sacrifice" is both hyperbole and a subjective statement. No, healing is not deleted and sacrifices are certainly made. Some examples of sacrifices that are made include:

    1) More points into befoul means less points for sustain, block, roll dodge, and other green nodes.
    2) Your example of Durok's Bane means that a player is sacrificing a 5 piece bonus that will only apply when/if attacked by an enemy.
    3) Your example of a disease enchant means that the player bases the defile on an RNG percentage, which upon activation last for 4 seconds, and then hits a cooldown period.
    4) Your example of the Nightblade ultimate focuses in on a single target ultimate attack. This is where we get subjective because I think this is sacrifice by the player using it. I'd much rather face a dodgeable, and often predictable single target ultimate, than an undodgeable AOE ultimate while an enemy spams a gap closer with an immovable pot active.

    I definitely understand that you're frustrated with more than just the defile (as you expressed your temptation to throw a computer out the window when referencing class heal decisions), but the 17 potential healing buffs/strengthening tactics vs. the 4 potential defiling tactics point to healing vs. defiling being in a good place, for now.

    Edit: Clarity

    1) Yes, but that marginable. You loose nearly nothing by retracting the last few points you ususally put into stars and switch them to befoul, but you still gain so much. It scales too well.

    On an usual build, how much do you loose if you retract whole 30-40 points from across all green stars after they are spend to put them into befoul? Just to make an example, even the first (!) 40 points would give you the following:
    9% regen/ resource return or 16% break free/dodge/block cost reduction or 35% defile increase

    See where the issue lies? The actual opportunity costs are far lower thanks to diminishing returns. If you're at 44 points warlord and retract the last 7 points you go down from 17% to 15% but also gain huge 7% on defile.

    2) Sure, but go ahead and calculate how much (let's call it) hypothetical damage you gain by shutting down each and every opponents healing by at least 30%. E.g. If his burst heal gets reduced by 3k, you need to inflict 3k less damage to kill him. The loss isn't quite that high as you might think.
    And "that will only apply when/if attacked by an enemy.", really? What is your opponent supposed to do to kill you? It's not like he can walk around that issue by simply not attacking you and hope you'll call it quits.

    3) Yes

    4) Point is? Not gonna discuss gc spam or how overloaded Incap might be. It got mentionend previously because it's no sacrifice at all to slot and spam incap. Why? Because it does so much else. If it would only dmg and defile, I'd say okay. But it does so many things more, it's the go to ult for most. Not to mention passives. There is no sacrifice. Like there is barely a sacrifice to run Reverb on a SnB build. Why should you not run it? Damage, CC, Debuff, instant.

    To add to that, sometimes I think you only look at the theoretical side and totally neglect the common practice.
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on June 14, 2018 9:16AM
  • amir412
    amir412
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    Danksta wrote: »
    Major Defile is fine, Befoul is way overtuned. No defense will change my mind.

    Why do you think it is overtuned?

    CUZ maybe for 30 points u get triple the amount of Blessing star? MAYBE?
    PC | EU | AD | "@Saidden"| 1700 CP|
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Everyone in this thread realizes you use to be able to achieve 50% on defile and 50% from fassalla and 15% from minor right? And you still couldn’t kill competent healers with that.
  • Gnozo
    Gnozo
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    amir412 wrote: »
    Danksta wrote: »
    Major Defile is fine, Befoul is way overtuned. No defense will change my mind.

    Why do you think it is overtuned?

    CUZ maybe for 30 points u get triple the amount of Blessing star? MAYBE?

    Yo @amir412 :smiley:

    U cant discuss in depth pvp mechanics with zerg pugs and forum warriors. Just not possible.

    Only 1% of the ppl in Forum actually have some knowledge about solo and smalscale and by solo i dont mean zerg surfers.

    People are depending things like duroks, shieldbreaker, zaan and every cancer in this game cause they use it themself and without this they would be completly Trash :smile:
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Daus wrote: »
    Healing buffs:
    Minor Mending: 8%
    Major Mending: 25%
    Minor Vitality: 8%
    Major Vitality: 30%
    Rapid Mending: 8%
    Quick to Heal: 10%
    CP total increase: up to 30%

    Healing debuffs:
    Minor Defile: 15%
    Major Defile: 30%
    CP total increase: up to 55%

    There is nothing wrong with the current balance of defile in terms of strength. The issue is that classes such as stamblade and stamplar struggle for strong healing buffs, and defile is too accessible. The potential is certainly way higher for healing, but the accessibility is too high for Defile. Major Defile should be strong, but linked to ultimates and not normal abilities. The duration of Duroks Bane should also be decreased.

    But you can’t look at it in terms of available buffs, nor can you look at it in terms of min max as others have. Because the typical player, built for open world PvP, will have a very hard time coming up with those healing buffs.

    The way that this needs to be looked at is the easy availability of defile, and how well it scales in CP, with how difficult it actually is to get healing buffs on a typical open world build and how badly the CP healing done/received stars scale. Put defile in the blue stars, make it an offensive choice where you must sacrifice damage to get it.
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    This post is gold, eventhough i ridiculed myself for Posting a very outdated defile formula to prove how op it is.

    If anyone thinks defile is balanced at this point i have bad news for them ----> you're bad or like your Training wheels
  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
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    I don't get the problems with healbots. They are support builds which should be strong in their support niche, since they are terrible at anything else.

    Not to mention that defile *** over everything, even as magsorc it's nasty to fight against cheesy defile stackers.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    Now it gets ridiculous....nightblades make a sacrifice with slotting incap....
    About everything else you were saying with „there are so many hots and mechanics to make healing better“: if you play like this, you arent competitive anymore. Like the statement of having minor and major mending on your class based on gear and backbar weapon...you arent competitive wearing a heal staff on most of the classes. Minor mending from gear, you are joking right? Healing taken bonus from sets, so sanctuary set or something with a healing taken bonus...again you arent competitive anymore. Powered trait and ritual mundus...not competitive.
    Everything is not competitive which „could“ increase healing. There is too much sacrifice compared to slotting duroks bane, incap or putting points into befoul, because with both you are competitive with pretty much zero drawback.

    Yes, I expressed earlier that I would rather face a telegraphed, predictable, dodgeable, blockable, single target Nightblade ultimate rather than a large, undodgeable, multi-target Eye of the Storm ultimate that allows the player to cast skills and gap close during its duration. You call my opinion and personal preference (which I prefaced by saying it was a subjective stance) "ridiculous," but how does that aid discussion?

    I knew when I posted this thread that there would be passionate resistance to my defense of defiling, but vague, general statements such as "you arent competitive wearing a heal staff on most of the classes" and hyperbolic statements such as "Everything is not competitive which 'could' increase healing" don't offer much incentive to consider opposing viewpoints.
  • Zelos
    Zelos
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    I want to agree with OP but some classes dont have the luxury or having any of those buffs (except through champion points) stamina nightblade and stamina sorcerer dont have good effective healing anymore, stamina nightblade lost its healing as cloak was a "form" of major mending by getting crit heals for only 2.9 seconds and CAN be broken, it's not that way anymore and it's even worse with sloads dominating the meta. Stamina sorcerer also never had a reliable buff to healing other than crit surge which was based off your crit percentage essentially and had a 1 second cooldown with a quite weak heal in pvp. With a large hit to troll king which I think could have been handled differently by well... idk let's say a cooldown to start with on it before zos decided to almost destroy it completely, I think befoul should be scaled down like the regens were in morrowind, not removed but its effectiveness reduced, as my defile rn is 70% of ALL healing which is insane and even with major mending and 100 points into blessed it wont be enough.
    Aeonhack - AD Stamina Nightblade - 5 Star General

    CP1200

    Creator and user of "Questionable" addons and game mechanics.
  • Chilly-McFreeze
    Chilly-McFreeze
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    Now it gets ridiculous....nightblades make a sacrifice with slotting incap....
    About everything else you were saying with „there are so many hots and mechanics to make healing better“: if you play like this, you arent competitive anymore. Like the statement of having minor and major mending on your class based on gear and backbar weapon...you arent competitive wearing a heal staff on most of the classes. Minor mending from gear, you are joking right? Healing taken bonus from sets, so sanctuary set or something with a healing taken bonus...again you arent competitive anymore. Powered trait and ritual mundus...not competitive.
    Everything is not competitive which „could“ increase healing. There is too much sacrifice compared to slotting duroks bane, incap or putting points into befoul, because with both you are competitive with pretty much zero drawback.

    Yes, I expressed earlier that I would rather face a telegraphed, predictable, dodgeable, blockable, single target Nightblade ultimate rather than a large, undodgeable, multi-target Eye of the Storm ultimate that allows the player to cast skills and gap close during its duration. You call my opinion and personal preference (which I prefaced by saying it was a subjective stance) "ridiculous," but how does that aid discussion?

    I knew when I posted this thread that there would be passionate resistance to my defense of defiling, but vague, general statements such as "you arent competitive wearing a heal staff on most of the classes" and hyperbolic statements such as "Everything is not competitive which 'could' increase healing" don't offer much incentive to consider opposing viewpoints.

    You do understand that in a topic about defile people will argue about skills that have a defile on it rather than about skills that have perks of their own but not defile? Bringing in things that have not the slightest to do with the topic at hand doesn't aid the discussion too. You put up a smoke screen to veil that Incap is by no means a sacrifice.

    I can't remember when I last died to EotS outside of group vs group play. 1v1 I die to incap, much rather to what it brings with it, but never did I get defeated by the destro ult. And to play down the power of incap, largely due to it's de-/buffs/CC rather than the damage, is quite a stretch.

    And isn't it a vague, general statement to say "you guys have powered resto staffs as options to balance out defile"? Please show me an up to date solo stam build with a resto staff.
    Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on June 14, 2018 4:00PM
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    Now it gets ridiculous....nightblades make a sacrifice with slotting incap....
    About everything else you were saying with „there are so many hots and mechanics to make healing better“: if you play like this, you arent competitive anymore. Like the statement of having minor and major mending on your class based on gear and backbar weapon...you arent competitive wearing a heal staff on most of the classes. Minor mending from gear, you are joking right? Healing taken bonus from sets, so sanctuary set or something with a healing taken bonus...again you arent competitive anymore. Powered trait and ritual mundus...not competitive.
    Everything is not competitive which „could“ increase healing. There is too much sacrifice compared to slotting duroks bane, incap or putting points into befoul, because with both you are competitive with pretty much zero drawback.

    Yes, I expressed earlier that I would rather face a telegraphed, predictable, dodgeable, blockable, single target Nightblade ultimate rather than a large, undodgeable, multi-target Eye of the Storm ultimate that allows the player to cast skills and gap close during its duration. You call my opinion and personal preference (which I prefaced by saying it was a subjective stance) "ridiculous," but how does that aid discussion?

    I knew when I posted this thread that there would be passionate resistance to my defense of defiling, but vague, general statements such as "you arent competitive wearing a heal staff on most of the classes" and hyperbolic statements such as "Everything is not competitive which 'could' increase healing" don't offer much incentive to consider opposing viewpoints.

    You do understand that in a topic about defile people will argue about skills that have a defile on it rather than about skills that have perks of their own but not defile? Bringing in things that have not the slightest to do with the topic at hand doesn't aid the discussion too. You put up a smoke screen to veil that Incap is by no means a sacrifice.

    I can't remember when I last died to EotS outside of group vs group play. 1v1 I die to incap, much rather to what it brings with it, but never did I get defeated by the destro ult. And to play down the power of incap, largely due to it's de-/buffs/CC rather than the damage, is quite a stretch.

    And isn't it a vague, general statement to say "you guys have powered resto staffs as options to balance out defile"? Please show me an up to date solo stam build with a resto staff.

    If you scroll up you will see that the discussion about the Nightblade ultimate originated in reference to sacrifices. I expressed the opinion that a single target ultimate (which is often telegraphed and completely avoidable through a defensive tactic that every character has, dodge) sacrifices a team-aiding, multi-target ultimate (I used Eye of the Storm as an example). So yes, it relates because I am of the opinion that sacrifices are being made by the individual who is choosing to use the Nightblade ultimate for its benefits of stun, defile and increased damage vs. its weaknesses of single target, often telegraphed and dodgeable, and less team aiding. Again, that's my opinion of a choice and sacrifices that are being made.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to do by changing the quote I referred to as vague and general from "you arent competitive wearing a heal staff on most of the classes" to "you guys have powered resto staffs as options to balance out defile"?

    You changed the meaning of the quote by changing the words and then started arguing against your own made-up statement. This alone makes it difficult to consider the arguments that you're making.
  • Swimguy
    Swimguy
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    befoul and defile are not overtuned, if you cant realize you arent healing and thats your only form of defense then you are SoL because thats what befoul is meant to do. However if you have another form of defense a lot of the times youll be okay unless your fighting 4-5 people. and since befoul/defile affect mag classes way less than stam its really suprising how people think befoul is op and not things like soul assault.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Your example of the Nightblade ultimate focuses in on a single target ultimate attack. This is where we get subjective because I think this is sacrifice by the player using it. I'd much rather face a dodgeable, and often predictable single target ultimate, than an undodgeable AOE ultimate while an enemy spams a gap closer with an immovable pot active.

    Oh, that's rich. Please continue telling all of us how Nightblades are making a "sacrifice" to slot and use Incap :astonished:
  • Avran_Sylt
    Avran_Sylt
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    My opinion? Defile/Befoul as it is now has to counter too many +healing bonuses such that it's overtuned as just one debuff.

    Take Defile. Split it into two different debuffs.

    One that reduces Healing Done, and one that reduces Healing Taken. Lower their values accordingly (in line with Minor Vitality and Major Vitality).

    Split the Befoul CP Star. Healing Done reduction is in Blue CP, Healing Taken reduction is in Green CP

    Replace all set sources of +% Healing Done with +Max Magicka

    Replace all set sources of +% Healing Received with HP regen.

    Replace the Heavy Armor +% Healing received with Minor Vitality at all times.

    Figure out what sets need what debuffs, and what ultimates and what skills/statuses apply what debuffs.

    (Continue balancing Racials and Class Passives from there.)
    (Be sure to also make the -HealingDone/-Healing Taken debuffs subtractive with +HealingDone/+HealingTaken buffs instead of multiplicative)
    Edited by Avran_Sylt on June 14, 2018 5:07PM
  • GrumpyDuckling
    GrumpyDuckling
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    Your example of the Nightblade ultimate focuses in on a single target ultimate attack. This is where we get subjective because I think this is sacrifice by the player using it. I'd much rather face a dodgeable, and often predictable single target ultimate, than an undodgeable AOE ultimate while an enemy spams a gap closer with an immovable pot active.

    Oh, that's rich. Please continue telling all of us how Nightblades are making a "sacrifice" to slot and use Incap :astonished:

    To gain stun, defile, and increased damage against a single opponent by using an often telegraphed, dodgeable, and blockable ultimate, the player is sacrificing a team aiding ultimate, or a multi-target ultimate, or an ultimate that has less counters. It's all about choices.

    The same applies in reverse. If a player wants a team aiding, multi-target, less counter-able ultimate, then they sacrifice benefits applied by an ultimate like Death Stroke.
  • Mureel
    Mureel
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    Danksta wrote: »
    Major Defile is fine, Befoul is way overtuned. No defense will change my mind.

    Why do you think it is overtuned?

    Healing in pvp is already cut in half. Befoul adds the possibility of 65% heal debuff if used right. So technically abilities like vigor are cut by 115% since your numbers are already cut in half gor healing..

    Max heal debuff you should have on a player is 35% minor and major SHOULD NOT STACK.
    With regard to PVE, no thank you! Major and Minor should 100% stack!


  • visionality
    visionality
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    Checkmath wrote: »
    @GrumpyDuckling
    Templars for example only have breath of life to keep them alive.

    Uh ... your idea of a templar healbot seriously is "spams breath of life as his only way to stay alive"?

    :'(

    I recommend googling some PVP templar healer builds, you will be greatly surprised how much more this class has in stack.
  • BohnT
    BohnT
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    Your example of the Nightblade ultimate focuses in on a single target ultimate attack. This is where we get subjective because I think this is sacrifice by the player using it. I'd much rather face a dodgeable, and often predictable single target ultimate, than an undodgeable AOE ultimate while an enemy spams a gap closer with an immovable pot active.

    Oh, that's rich. Please continue telling all of us how Nightblades are making a "sacrifice" to slot and use Incap :astonished:

    To gain stun, defile, and increased damage against a single opponent by using an often telegraphed, dodgeable, and blockable ultimate, the player is sacrificing a team aiding ultimate, or a multi-target ultimate, or an ultimate that has less counters. It's all about choices.

    The same applies in reverse. If a player wants a team aiding, multi-target, less counter-able ultimate, then they sacrifice benefits applied by an ultimate like Death Stroke.

    if you are in a Group that requires you to run EoTS then this Group will have someone running duroks to aply Major defile on all enemies.

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