In Defense of Major Defile and Befoul

GrumpyDuckling

I know there are some of you who will vehemently disagree with a stance to keep Major Defile and Befoul in its current state, but please take the time to consider the following reason for why Major Defile and Befoul should remain the same, at least for now:

The defiling quartet of Major Defile, Minor Defile, Befoul, and Siphoner has to compete against ~18 ways to buff and/or strengthen healing. Most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more:

Major Mending
Minor Mending
Major Vitality
Minor Vitality
Healing Done
Healing Received
Healing Taken
Health Recovery
Blessed (champion point node)
Quick Recovery (champion point node)
Elfborn (champion point node)
Precise Strikes (champion point node)
Healing can crit (defile does not)
Healing scales with max attribute (defile does not)
Healing scales with spell/weapon damage (defile does not)
Ritual Stone (no defiling mundus stone counter)
Powered Trait (no defiling trait counter)
Minor Lifesteal

Yes, Major Defile and Minor Defile offer higher percentages and are often easier to access than Major Mending and Minor Mending, and yes the scaling on Befoul is high, but it stands to reason that these decisions were made to create counterbalance that combats the multitude of benefits that factor into healing.

When you consider all of the above, I think it's logical to conclude that ZOS has done a solid job with the current state of defiling in ESO. I hope it remains roughly the same, at least for now.

Edit on 6/13/18 -- Added Major Vitality, Minor Vitality, Blessed, and Quick Recovery to the list.
Edit on 6/14/18 -- Added Minor Lifesteal to the list.

Danksta

Major Defile is fine, Befoul is way overtuned. No defense will change my mind.

GrumpyDuckling

Danksta wrote: »

Major Defile is fine, Befoul is way overtuned. No defense will change my mind.

Why do you think it is overtuned?

Edziu

as for me real problem are healbots with this all

lets be hones..without anypne with defile healbots are almost on godmode, not killable
I just remember some times when 20+ people was trying to kill healbot kiting them at tree...few mins and still trying to kill him
I once landed incap on him with defile, he didnt purge it and I just saw how he momentally get rekt

you are going with defile to kill people or you will be unable to kill them ever with healbot

and ofc going with this case normal average people hurted more because normal players dont have insane amount of healing and cheap purge to many negative effects at once

by itself befoul cp is to much for normal players but agaisnt healbots int must have to kill them or gtfo from them and they will be like annyoing flea to you

Solariken

Danksta wrote: »

Major Defile is fine, Befoul is way overtuned. No defense will change my mind.

Overtuned and in the wrong tree.

ak_pvp

Defile applies at the end of all these, instead of just taking away from them, making it too strong as it can lower your healing, which has many multiplicative buffs stacked down to below normal with a single ability.

Ihatenightblades

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Major Defile is fine, Befoul is way overtuned. No defense will change my mind.

Why do you think it is overtuned?

Healing in pvp is already cut in half. Befoul adds the possibility of 65% heal debuff if used right. So technically abilities like vigor are cut by 115% since your numbers are already cut in half gor healing..

Max heal debuff you should have on a player is 35% minor and major SHOULD NOT STACK.

GrumpyDuckling

ak_pvp wrote: »

Defile applies at the end of all these, instead of just taking away from them, making it too strong as it can lower your healing, which has many multiplicative buffs stacked down to below normal with a single ability.

If defile didn't apply at the end of all the healing options, then the amount of healing options would be too abundant. It's the abundance of healing instances that create the need for defile and befoul to be so high.

Checkmath

ok lets do some math then with the typical healbot class, alright?
if i make any mistakes in my calculation, pls say so.
a typical pvp healbot is in heavy armor, has around 30% crit, 37k magicka and around 2.5k spelldamage on his backbar. this results in a base breath of life of around 10k. with minor and major sorcer he reaches around 3.1k spelldamage and a breath of life tooltip of around 11.2k. now lets take an unbuffed breath of life of 10k as baseline.
a heavy armor magplar has access to the following increasing healing done bonus: 8% from minor mending plus from the cp tree blessed. from passives he gets additional 12% at max when low health. lets assume he has 27 points in blesses, resulting in 7% more healing done. ok now the math: 10k*(1+0.08+0.07)=11500 healing (we leave the 12% out, since it only counts when practically dead). now lets half that, since battlespirit is there: 5750 healing.
ok now we get to the healing received part, where defile comes in too. lets assume our templar has 27 points (7%) into qick recovery and is defiled with basic major defile: 5750*(1+0.07-0.3)=4428 healing, which is already less than the base.
with major and minor defile its 5750*(1+0.07-0.3-0.15)=3565
now the enemy has also a lots in befoul, lets say 100 points (was 55% more defile, right?)
5750*(1+0.07-.465-0.2325)=2142 healing with a breath of life, when the base skill heals for 5k in pvp?

ok now the hardcorecase: templar is fully buffed with around 3.1k spelldamage, with the 12% healing from the pretty much dead passive and does a crit against fully defiled:
11.2k/2=5.6k (after battlespirit)
5600*(1+0.08+0.12+0.07)=7112
7112*1.6=11379 with the crit healing
11379*(1+0.07-0.465-0.2325)=4239....still less than the original tooltip unbuffed in pvp, and this is the healbot class. such a heal has probably around a 30% chance, otherwise its around 2.3k maybe.

so back why defile and befoul is problematic: there are too many sources of defile and its too easy to apply defile (constantly). befoul does more than it should. the counters to defile like healing done and received, so basically major/ minor mending and vitality are not accessible for most of the classes (healer class has only minor mending) and with a decent amount of cps spent into blessed or quick recovery you get not enough to counter.

Aedaryl

Checkmath wrote: »

ok lets do some math then with the typical healbot class, alright?
if i make any mistakes in my calculation, pls say so.
a typical pvp healbot is in heavy armor, has around 30% crit, 37k magicka and around 2.5k spelldamage on his backbar. this results in a base breath of life of around 10k. with minor and major sorcer he reaches around 3.1k spelldamage and a breath of life tooltip of around 11.2k. now lets take an unbuffed breath of life of 10k as baseline.
a heavy armor magplar has access to the following increasing healing done bonus: 8% from minor mending plus from the cp tree blessed. from passives he gets additional 12% at max when low health. lets assume he has 27 points in blesses, resulting in 7% more healing done. ok now the math: 10k*(1+0.08+0.07)=11500 healing (we leave the 12% out, since it only counts when practically dead). now lets half that, since battlespirit is there: 5750 healing.
ok now we get to the healing received part, where defile comes in too. lets assume our templar has 27 points (7%) into qick recovery and is defiled with basic major defile: 5750*(1+0.07-0.3)=4428 healing, which is already less than the base.
with major and minor defile its 5750*(1+0.07-0.3-0.15)=3565
now the enemy has also a lots in befoul, lets say 100 points (was 55% more defile, right?)
5750*(1+0.07-.465-0.2325)=2142 healing with a breath of life, when the base skill heals for 5k in pvp?

ok now the hardcorecase: templar is fully buffed with around 3.1k spelldamage, with the 12% healing from the pretty much dead passive and does a crit against fully defiled:
11.2k/2=5.6k (after battlespirit)
5600*(1+0.08+0.12+0.07)=7112
7112*1.6=11379 with the crit healing
11379*(1+0.07-0.465-0.2325)=4239....still less than the original tooltip unbuffed in pvp, and this is the healbot class. such a heal has probably around a 30% chance, otherwise its around 2.3k maybe.

so back why defile and befoul is problematic: there are too many sources of defile and its too easy to apply defile (constantly). befoul does more than it should. the counters to defile like healing done and received, so basically major/ minor mending and vitality are not accessible for most of the classes (healer class has only minor mending) and with a decent amount of cps spent into blessed or quick recovery you get not enough to counter.

I agree defile is too strong, but I want to add some information here.

100 points into defile isn't something people do. Major Defile is generally around 40%, and it's quite hard to get both defile on a damage build.

The problem here is the full defile bot that appear. They run 2 sets around Major and Minor defile with a lot of point in befoul, and their role is just to .... defile.

---

Also, I want to add that when there is a magicka class around, templar critical chance when block casting BoL is around 100%.

Because of the cp passive vengeance : When you block 3 spell, your next spell is 100% crit.

3 spell might be a lot. But it's not.

Jabs will proc this passive in a global cooldown.

Force pulse will proc this passive in a global cooldown.

Light attack + dk skill + volatile armor tick will proc this passive on global cooldown.

Light attack + NB skill + shadow image will proc it in a global cooldown.

And if there is 2 magicka hitting the templar, he will block cast with 100% critical chance.

---

An other problem about healing and defile is :

When you have defile, it's too strong, but when you haven't, healing is out of control.

Every stamina class can have access to defile from revernating bash.

But magicka class have no access to it. (NB have).

When you are a magicka sorc or magicka templar or a magicka warden fighting a tanky damage build, the fight is quite unfair because the ennemi healing is out of control.

---

Defile actually is too strong, and should be nerfed.

The magicka classes that don't have defile should have good presure to compensate (Mdk is a good exemple of no defile class that can deal with tanky dps because of the DoT pressure is real).

GrumpyDuckling

Checkmath wrote: »

ok lets do some math then with the typical healbot class, alright?
if i make any mistakes in my calculation, pls say so.
a typical pvp healbot is in heavy armor, has around 30% crit, 37k magicka and around 2.5k spelldamage on his backbar. this results in a base breath of life of around 10k. with minor and major sorcer he reaches around 3.1k spelldamage and a breath of life tooltip of around 11.2k. now lets take an unbuffed breath of life of 10k as baseline.
a heavy armor magplar has access to the following increasing healing done bonus: 8% from minor mending plus from the cp tree blessed. from passives he gets additional 12% at max when low health. lets assume he has 27 points in blesses, resulting in 7% more healing done. ok now the math: 10k*(1+0.08+0.07)=11500 healing (we leave the 12% out, since it only counts when practically dead). now lets half that, since battlespirit is there: 5750 healing.
ok now we get to the healing received part, where defile comes in too. lets assume our templar has 27 points (7%) into qick recovery and is defiled with basic major defile: 5750*(1+0.07-0.3)=4428 healing, which is already less than the base.
with major and minor defile its 5750*(1+0.07-0.3-0.15)=3565
now the enemy has also a lots in befoul, lets say 100 points (was 55% more defile, right?)
5750*(1+0.07-.465-0.2325)=2142 healing with a breath of life, when the base skill heals for 5k in pvp?

ok now the hardcorecase: templar is fully buffed with around 3.1k spelldamage, with the 12% healing from the pretty much dead passive and does a crit against fully defiled:
11.2k/2=5.6k (after battlespirit)
5600*(1+0.08+0.12+0.07)=7112
7112*1.6=11379 with the crit healing
11379*(1+0.07-0.465-0.2325)=4239....still less than the original tooltip unbuffed in pvp, and this is the healbot class. such a heal has probably around a 30% chance, otherwise its around 2.3k maybe.

so back why defile and befoul is problematic: there are too many sources of defile and its too easy to apply defile (constantly). befoul does more than it should. the counters to defile like healing done and received, so basically major/ minor mending and vitality are not accessible for most of the classes (healer class has only minor mending) and with a decent amount of cps spent into blessed or quick recovery you get not enough to counter.

Thanks for the post. I'm going to reiterate your numbers. Please correct me if I interpreted them incorrectly:

Your base number for a Breath of Life heal from the build outlined above, in Cyrodiil, is for 5,750.
On the same build, Breath of Life, when hit with Major Defile and Minor Defile, from an enemy with 100 points into Befoul, heals for 2,142, and crits for 4,239.

Those numbers show defiling at its apex (it's impossible to defile further and there is no way to stack more defiling because you have used both the major and minor debuffs, and fully maxed out the Befoul champion point node). With healing, however, you only put about 1/4 of the champion points into the healing done and healing received nodes that you did compared to Befoul. I know they scale differently (and detailed in my first post above why I think they do), but why are you loading up Befoul, and not loading up the healing nodes?

Still, assuming your numbers are correct, I think they are reasonable and not problematic because there are still other healing factors that need to be considered. It's worth noting that you can stack different heals (more than one) on a character, and most builds have access to more than one heal. Other factors worth considering:

- Health Regen that occurs every 2 seconds.
- If the enemy is spending 100 points into Befoul, then they have less points to spend elsewhere for their own sustain.
- Defile can be purged, and every class has access to purge (yes, I know it's expensive).
- Players cannot stack defiling on an enemy (there is a cap with the amount of defiling that is possible, as you outlined above because it is held in check by the major and minor debuffs), but players can share multiple heals with one another.

TLDR - I appreciate the numbers, but there are other factors (not shown by the numbers in the example) that must be processed into the equation before we call defile and befoul "problematic."

Edit: Typos

sneakymitchell

Defile ruined health recovery builds back then some players run troll king and orgrium if they wanted but now it’s still about how much crit heal you can get. Health recovery can’t crit cause it’s separate. That’s why we see more vampires mostly cause of defile was being applied by health recovery.

Let’s say a guy who is using health recovery on his magic build. Later a defile happened to him. Their health recovery gets almost cut in half due to a single negative status effect.

srnm

A lot of arguments presented here in favour of defile and befoul apply to oblivion damage, in a CP-context.
I hope someone starts an "In Defense of Oblivion Damage" thread...


Why is stacking "free" resistance, recovery, healing considered skilful but stacking oblivion dot+poison dot+defile+befoul unskillful? In any case, oblivion+poison+defile+befoul is becoming less effective as more players adjust to it.

The issue in general is that some stacked effects are super OP to the point of ridiculous against casuals, and marginal to the point of ineffective against the full-time PvPers...

Gnozo

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

- Defile can be purged, and every class has access to purge (yes, I know it's expensive).

So a 7k magicka purge wich also dont grant it will purge the defile is a viable thing for you? While duroks and reverb will apply defile right after the purge so u wont get an healing without defile.

Defile shouldnt have a 100% uptime from sets like duroks or skills like reverb. It needs a cooldown. Also befoul should be something else. It shouldnt be possible to change a debuff with cp. 30% and 15% should stay and not get buffed from anything.

With this, defile bots can still give up to 45 % defile and this is more then enough.

Checkmath

@GrumpyDuckling
I didnt go with higher numbers in cps for quick recovery or blessed, because nobody runs that. I for example have 11 points (3%) in blessed and zero in quick recovery, because both doesnt scale well and the benefit is pretty small. Both trees give 15% healing at maximum. So a breath of life with major mending (if that was a thing for templars) and 100 points in both quick recovery and blesses results in 4146 healing (5k base) when countered by major defile with 100cps in befoul.
But why stacking so much into befoul you ask? There are lots of people around going for the defiler job and mostly do that with duroks bane, which in fight cant be really cleansed. So the real difference in here is, that no class has much of access to a lot of healing done or healing received buffs, meanwhile defile is very prevalent. If you want to have really good healing, you really need to build for it. Meanwhile you can be a defiler with ease.
You say you can have different heals at once. This pretty much only applies to stamina classes with vigor and rally, since most magicka classes have one heal ability to heal up. Templars for example only have breath of life to keep them alive.
Health regen is just a dead stat for magicka classes and if stamina classes go for it (via trollking mostly) is because they gave up their only burst heal rally for it.
To the cleansing. I just told you that defile is too prevalent, cleansing against an enemy with reverb bash is no option at all for any class but templar. Its the only class, which can remove such a thing decently. For everyone else is 5k magicka for 2 negative effects no option. Additionally there are defile sources, which permanently debuff, so even cleansing on the templar is senseless in that case.
Putting points into befoul makes you have less sustain, right. But you can keep the high damage from the blue cp at max. The choice should be damage versus befoul and not sustain versus befoul. Anyway sacrificing some sustain atm is no sacrifice at all, since you have free damage everywhere through proc sets.

Healing can be shared, so you can healed by another person or what do you mean there? Even if you get healed by a friend (if you are in a group and not solo) the defile still counts for those heals too. At the same time you can eat damage from the defilers friend, so that argument doesnt make sense at all.

Chilly-McFreeze

Meanwhile, my no cp solo stam sorc has access to how many of your said heal buffs?

Issue is that half your points don't hold true in no cp pvp, which is arguably a big part of pvp since some campaigns + entire battleground holds it.
Most classes, especially when not played in a coordinated group, don't even have access to half of the remaining buffs.

What you'd call much needed counterbalance to heal builds means downright davastation of non-healing builds' heals. Typicall ZoS manner of handling things, in the way of solving one issue they completely annihilate everything non-issue alike.

Weps

The problem is not the Defile per se, it's the only tool you have against these days groups that are running around with 2-3 healers.

The problem is how easily accessible it is and it forces people to go extra defensive generating healbots, making Heavy Armor great again despite having little to nothing to offer to anyone.

You have listed everything that can counter Minor and Major Defile with Befoul, problem is every class can defile targets and groups but not every class can have easy access to Major Mending, Major Vitality, Resto staves, cleanse and on and on and on

Danksta

The thing here is that healbots are the ones effected the least by defile/befoul assuming that they're Templars. I know the first thing I do on my Templar after getting defiled is cleanse. This effects players that don't play with a healbot in their group, most of whom would be strongly effected by just a base defile.

Now I have no problem with defile and I don't think that befoul should be taken out of the game, I just think befoul is way too strong for what you invest into it.

Strider__Roshin

Healing buffs:
Minor Mending: 8%
Major Mending: 25%
Minor Vitality: 8%
Major Vitality: 30%
Rapid Mending: 8%
Quick to Heal: 10%
CP total increase: up to 30%

Healing debuffs:
Minor Defile: 15%
Major Defile: 30%
CP total increase: up to 55%

There is nothing wrong with the current balance of defile in terms of strength. The issue is that classes such as stamblade and stamplar struggle for strong healing buffs, and defile is too accessible. The potential is certainly way higher for healing, but the accessibility is too high for Defile. Major Defile should be strong, but linked to ultimates and not normal abilities. The duration of Duroks Bane should also be decreased.

Weps

For Durok's Bane...you either add a set that gives constant Major Vitality or you should change it.

In my opinion, a buff or debuff that stronk should always be actively applied.
It shouldn't be that easy to gain that you farm a rather easy normal dungeon for 2 hours, and after that you're ready to kill the heals of every single person you encounter.

Low Buffs / Debuffs -> Should go with Sets
Strong Buffs / Debuffs -> Always need to be actively applied

WillhelmBlack

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Major Defile is fine, Befoul is way overtuned. No defense will change my mind.

Why do you think it is overtuned?

Perhaps it's the fact you can stack defile to way over 50%????????? What is the max? 80%?

Checkmath

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Major Defile is fine, Befoul is way overtuned. No defense will change my mind.

Why do you think it is overtuned?

Perhaps it's the fact you can stack defile to way over 50%????????? What is the max? 80%?

maximum is (30%+15%)*1.55=69.75%

Checkmath

Daus wrote: »

Healing buffs:
Minor Mending: 8%
Major Mending: 25%
Minor Vitality: 8%
Major Vitality: 30%
Rapid Mending: 8%
Quick to Heal: 10%
CP total increase: up to 30%

Healing debuffs:
Minor Defile: 15%
Major Defile: 30%
CP total increase: up to 55%

There is nothing wrong with the current balance of defile in terms of strength. The issue is that classes such as stamblade and stamplar struggle for strong healing buffs, and defile is too accessible. The potential is certainly way higher for healing, but the accessibility is too high for Defile. Major Defile should be strong, but linked to ultimates and not normal abilities. The duration of Duroks Bane should also be decreased.

actually there is more than one thing wrong with the amount of healing buffs: actually most classes have access to two of them plus the cp trees.

GrumpyDuckling

Checkmath wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling
I didnt go with higher numbers in cps for quick recovery or blessed, because nobody runs that. I for example have 11 points (3%) in blessed and zero in quick recovery, because both doesnt scale well and the benefit is pretty small. Both trees give 15% healing at maximum. So a breath of life with major mending (if that was a thing for templars) and 100 points in both quick recovery and blesses results in 4146 healing (5k base) when countered by major defile with 100cps in befoul.
But why stacking so much into befoul you ask? There are lots of people around going for the defiler job and mostly do that with duroks bane, which in fight cant be really cleansed. So the real difference in here is, that no class has much of access to a lot of healing done or healing received buffs, meanwhile defile is very prevalent. If you want to have really good healing, you really need to build for it. Meanwhile you can be a defiler with ease.
You say you can have different heals at once. This pretty much only applies to stamina classes with vigor and rally, since most magicka classes have one heal ability to heal up. Templars for example only have breath of life to keep them alive.
Health regen is just a dead stat for magicka classes and if stamina classes go for it (via trollking mostly) is because they gave up their only burst heal rally for it.
To the cleansing. I just told you that defile is too prevalent, cleansing against an enemy with reverb bash is no option at all for any class but templar. Its the only class, which can remove such a thing decently. For everyone else is 5k magicka for 2 negative effects no option. Additionally there are defile sources, which permanently debuff, so even cleansing on the templar is senseless in that case.
Putting points into befoul makes you have less sustain, right. But you can keep the high damage from the blue cp at max. The choice should be damage versus befoul and not sustain versus befoul. Anyway sacrificing some sustain atm is no sacrifice at all, since you have free damage everywhere through proc sets.

Healing can be shared, so you can healed by another person or what do you mean there? Even if you get healed by a friend (if you are in a group and not solo) the defile still counts for those heals too. At the same time you can eat damage from the defilers friend, so that argument doesnt make sense at all.

I find it hard to follow the logic with your argument when you say things like 1) "nobody runs [quick recovery or blessed]" and that 2) "no class has much of access to a lot of healing done or healing received buffs, meanwhile defile is very prevalent."

1) Every class has access to quick recovery and blessed, and they need to decide if they want to build for more healing or damage, and more healing received or defense. It's not a strong argument to say that one of the reasons that defiling should be changed is because "nobody," (your words) utilizes healing done and healing received champion point nodes, presumably because they would rather stack damage and defense. That seems like the player's fault for ignoring healing options, not a problem with defiling. I understand that blessed and quick recovery don't scale as well as befoul, but again, that's because there are many more factors (in addition to blessed and quick recovery) that buff/strengthen healing/health return. Don't forget...

2) Classes have potential or guaranteed access to all of the following ways to buff/strengthen healing:
Major Mending
Minor Mending
Healing Done
Healing Received
Healing Taken
Health Recovery
Elfborn (champion point node)
Precise Strikes (champion point node)
Healing can crit (defile does not)
Healing scales with max attribute (defile does not)
Healing scales with spell/weapon damage (defile does not)
Ritual Stone (no defiling mundus stone counter)
Powered Trait (no defiling trait counter)

Yes, Major Defile, Minor Defile, and Befoul offer higher percentages and are often easy to access, but it stands to reason that these decisions were made to create counterbalance that combats the multitude of benefits that factor into healing (see all that are listed above). All defiling has is Major Defile, Minor Defile, Befoul, and Siphoner.

I don't know how to make it any more clear, so here is a visual representation:

Defiling
Major Defile
Minor Defile
Befoul
Siphoner

vs.

Healing/Health Return
Major Mending
Minor Mending
Healing Done
Healing Received
Healing Taken
Health Recovery
Elfborn (champion point node)
Precise Strikes (champion point node)
Healing can crit (defile does not)
Healing scales with max attribute (defile does not)
Healing scales with spell/weapon damage (defile does not)
Ritual Stone (no defiling mundus stone counter)
Powered Trait (no defiling trait counter)

I think, with all this considered, that the current healing vs. defiling balance is good, for now.

Checkmath

@GrumpyDuckling
i didnt say it needs to change because people dont use quick recovery or blessed cp trees. i said, that people less use those two, since they offer small effects for too many points, while you need to sacrifice defense or damage for it. meanwhile befoul scales very high with defile and only sacrificing some sustain with all the proc sets around is no sacrifice at all.

and now pls elaborate which class really have acces to which of the mending or vitality buffs and compare again.

GrumpyDuckling

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Meanwhile, my no cp solo stam sorc has access to how many of your said heal buffs?

Issue is that half your points don't hold true in no cp pvp, which is arguably a big part of pvp since some campaigns + entire battleground holds it.
Most classes, especially when not played in a coordinated group, don't even have access to half of the remaining buffs.

What you'd call much needed counterbalance to heal builds means downright davastation of non-healing builds' heals. Typicall ZoS manner of handling things, in the way of solving one issue they completely annihilate everything non-issue alike.

Your no CP solo Stamsorc has access to the following:

Guaranteed Sources of Healing Benefits/Health Return for your No CP Stamsorc
Health Recovery (yes)
Healing can crit (defile does not)
Healing scales with max attribute (defile does not)
Healing scales with spell/weapon damage (defile does not)
Potions
You can even stack the following heals:
Vigor
Crit Surge
Dark Deal
Blood Magic passive
Depending on your stamina weapon(s), heals such as:
Rally/Momentum
Bloodthirst
Blood Craze
Lacerate
Draining Shot

Other Potential Sources of Healing Benefits/Health Return for your No CP Stamsorc
Ritual Stone (no defiling mundus stone counter)
Powered Trait (no defiling trait counter)
Major Mending (depends on backbar weapon)
Minor Mending (depends on gear set)
Healing Done (depends on gear set)
Healing Received (depends on gear set)
Healing Taken (depends on gear set)

All of the above vs. Major Defile and Minor Defile (because Befoul and Siphoner are taken out in no CP). I think that's fair.

Nevasca

Befoul should be in the blue Tree, not green.

GrumpyDuckling

Checkmath wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling
i didnt say it needs to change because people dont use quick recovery or blessed cp trees. i said, that people less use those two, since they offer small effects for too many points, while you need to sacrifice defense or damage for it. meanwhile befoul scales very high with defile and only sacrificing some sustain with all the proc sets around is no sacrifice at all.

and now pls elaborate which class really have acces to which of the mending or vitality buffs and compare again.

Please see the first post of the thread, in which I say, "most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more," and see the list.

Checkmath

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling
i didnt say it needs to change because people dont use quick recovery or blessed cp trees. i said, that people less use those two, since they offer small effects for too many points, while you need to sacrifice defense or damage for it. meanwhile befoul scales very high with defile and only sacrificing some sustain with all the proc sets around is no sacrifice at all.

and now pls elaborate which class really have acces to which of the mending or vitality buffs and compare again.

Please see the first post of the thread, in which I say, "most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more," and see the list.

sry but here i just disagree with you.

templars have minor mending
dks have major mending and minor vitality
wardens have major mending
sorcs....nothing
nightblades have minor vitaility and major mending tied to an ultimate

(i am sure, that i forgot something)
there is major mending tied to a resto heavy attack.
now say again how the healing buffs are comon and everyone has access to all those buffs.
but major defile is tied to a lot of skills.

GrumpyDuckling

Checkmath wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling
i didnt say it needs to change because people dont use quick recovery or blessed cp trees. i said, that people less use those two, since they offer small effects for too many points, while you need to sacrifice defense or damage for it. meanwhile befoul scales very high with defile and only sacrificing some sustain with all the proc sets around is no sacrifice at all.

and now pls elaborate which class really have acces to which of the mending or vitality buffs and compare again.

Please see the first post of the thread, in which I say, "most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more," and see the list.

sry but here i just disagree with you.

templars have minor mending
dks have major mending and minor vitality
wardens have major mending
sorcs....nothing
nightblades have minor vitaility and major mending tied to an ultimate

(i am sure, that i forgot something)
there is major mending tied to a resto heavy attack.
now say again how the healing buffs are comon and everyone has access to all those buffs.
but major defile is tied to a lot of skills.

Not sure what you're disagreeing about. Here are 8 realistic healing buffs/strengthening tactics for any build, regardless of class.

Health Recovery
Blessed (champion point node)
Quick Recovery (champion point node)
Elfborn (champion point node) and/or Precise Strikes (champion point node)
Healing can crit (defile does not)
Healing scales with max attribute (defile does not)
Healing scales with spell/weapon damage (defile does not)
Powered Trait (no defiling trait counter)

This is just bare minimum for any build. Most builds are easily capable of more.

Edit: Oh, and if you want to talk about how major defile is tied to a lot of skills, then you also have to consider that healing is available from a lot of skills, and those different healing skills allow you to stack heals on yourself (unlike defile skills, because you can't stack a major debuff on itself from multiple skills).

Chilly-McFreeze

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling
i didnt say it needs to change because people dont use quick recovery or blessed cp trees. i said, that people less use those two, since they offer small effects for too many points, while you need to sacrifice defense or damage for it. meanwhile befoul scales very high with defile and only sacrificing some sustain with all the proc sets around is no sacrifice at all.

and now pls elaborate which class really have acces to which of the mending or vitality buffs and compare again.

Please see the first post of the thread, in which I say, "most solo builds can realistically utilize ~8 of these healing buffs/strengthening tactics, if not more," and see the list.

sry but here i just disagree with you.

templars have minor mending
dks have major mending and minor vitality
wardens have major mending
sorcs....nothing
nightblades have minor vitaility and major mending tied to an ultimate

(i am sure, that i forgot something)
there is major mending tied to a resto heavy attack.
now say again how the healing buffs are comon and everyone has access to all those buffs.
but major defile is tied to a lot of skills.

Not sure what you're disagreeing about. Here are 8 realistic healing buffs/strengthening tactics for any build, regardless of class.

Health Recovery
Blessed (champion point node)
Quick Recovery (champion point node)
Elfborn (champion point node) and/or Precise Strikes (champion point node)
Healing can crit (defile does not)
Healing scales with max attribute (defile does not)
Healing scales with spell/weapon damage (defile does not)
Powered Trait (no defiling trait counter)

This is just bare minimum for any build. Most builds are easily capable of more.

Edit: Oh, and if you want to talk about how major defile is tied to a lot of skills, then you also have to consider that healing is available from a lot of skills, and those different healing skills allow you to stack heals on yourself (unlike defile skills, because you can't stack a major debuff on itself from multiple skills).

If you really want to include health regen and that "healing scales with attributes and damage + can crit" thingy you should at least be honest enough to acknowledge that defile is always a X% healing nerf. If my healing should heal for 3k or 4.5k buffed your defile will always take away X%, no matter if critted or not. Therefore it kinda scales with the attributes and stats of your opponent. Your benefit is bigger if their heals are bigger.

And "you can stack multiple sources of healing" also means investing multiple slots, CGDs and resources into it, while a defile affects them all simultaniously. As most of your means to boost healing have high opportunity costs (ritual stone, powered weapons) while e.g. a reverb, incap or snipe have very little opportunity costs in comparison.

E: Same goes for CP, if you even play with them. Healing boosts are in the blue and red tree and scale badly, you give something important up for that. While is the best scaling star and also in the green tree. Also you seem to be okay that health regen and powered trait on a solo build. BTW I would need to invest in health regen as yet another set bonus, cp star etc. while befoul still affects them too.