The Meta of Objective Play

Anazasi

Over the years we have seen so many additions, alterations, changes, and simply silly *** that it amazes me no one has ever argued that the mechanics of objective meta play needs a major rework. Since IC was released all we have seen changes in how AP is earned. This is not how you balance the game. Since the game was launched Cyrodiil has remained, make the strong stronger and the weak weaker. My point is the strongest faction in any given time slot is capable of crowning EMP making their faction stronger with buffs. Also that same faction can take scrolls from the weaker factions making them even stronger with the more buffs. Today, all the strongest faction has to do is just hold scrolls for AP, Points, and whatever else there numbers support in order to win a campaign.

The next change we need to see in this game is to rework scroll bonuses and rework Emp bonuses. If the factional imbalance is not going to be addressed and fixed than there is no other choice but to fix the mechanics that are amplifying the imbalance. Scoring is not the issue, it's the result of imbalance.

Should there be bonuses associated with EMP and Scrolls? Yes, but they should be more reward based instead of buff based. Should the Emp gain the buffs associated with being EMP? Absolutely. Should the entire faction get a health bonus? NO. Should capturing scrolls stack additional damage and mitigation? Absolutely not. Why should the strongest faction be made stronger? It doesn't force the other two factions to fight the strongest it just pushes them to fight each other. Scrolls should offer rewards of some form but should never offer increases in mitigation or damage.

If players want to focus on changes, which they should offer insights and ideas to zos, they should do so by first addressing the mechanical imbalances and then the population imbalances. Then look at the scoring system then see if the value of rewards are worth the effort to achieve.

Just my two cents take it or leave it.
The troll line starts here; please proceed in an orderly fashion and always remember to follow the guidelines for the forums.

VaranisArano

The faction that crowned an Emperor currently gets the health buff because ideally the other two factions now focus them together to dethrone the emperor.

If the alliances aren't focusing the defending emp faction because the health bonus is too strong, then thats a problem with the health bonus.

If the other alliances aren't focusing the defending emp faction because they'd rather fight each other and not care about the objectives, that's a different problem with a different solution.

I suspect its both. Only some players on each faction actually care about the dethrone and so those fewer players that care have to face the emp buffed faction, making them feel terribly outgunned. When the two opposing factions actually focus the emp faction as intended, that health buff is a nice buff but hardly overpowered for the defending emp faction, especially when its down to the hard defense of the last emp keep.

ezeepeezee

I agree with you. If I had my way, every keep, town, or otherwise major strategic location would have an associated territory, for which ownership would give the controlling faction's players buffs while in that territory. But the buffs should be associated with defense of the territory, e.g. HP buff for open field territory, range buff for territory with lots of verticality (cliffs, walls, etc.), and so on. Scrolls would only add faction-wide increases to resources gained - increased AP gains, shipments of alchemy mats, that kind of thing.

The design of Cyrodiil is incredibly simplistic. Like mind-blowingly poor. In the rest of the game there are all kinds of different, interesting visuals and terrain that would be an absolute blast to PVP in. In Cyrodiil you get 95% open fields, with some rocks and logs. It's really, really bad. In fact I think that much of the game's perceived lack of balance is due to the layout of Cyrodiil - like of course high damage ranged classes are going to overperform in an environment with nothing but open fields..

Cyrodiil doesn't just need tuning. It needs a complete overhaul. The layout, the scoring, the buffs, just the entire system. Everything.

Anazasi

VaranisArano wrote: »

The faction that crowned an Emperor currently gets the health buff because ideally the other two factions now focus them together to dethrone the emperor.

If the alliances aren't focusing the defending emp faction because the health bonus is too strong, then thats a problem with the health bonus.

If the other alliances aren't focusing the defending emp faction because they'd rather fight each other and not care about the objectives, that's a different problem with a different solution.

I suspect its both. Only some players on each faction actually care about the dethrone and so those fewer players that care have to face the emp buffed faction, making them feel terribly outgunned. When the two opposing factions actually focus the emp faction as intended, that health buff is a nice buff but hardly overpowered for the defending emp faction, especially when its down to the hard defense of the last emp keep.

The best ideals are often the worst direction to go.

NightbladeMechanics

Anazasi wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The faction that crowned an Emperor currently gets the health buff because ideally the other two factions now focus them together to dethrone the emperor.

If the alliances aren't focusing the defending emp faction because the health bonus is too strong, then thats a problem with the health bonus.

If the other alliances aren't focusing the defending emp faction because they'd rather fight each other and not care about the objectives, that's a different problem with a different solution.

I suspect its both. Only some players on each faction actually care about the dethrone and so those fewer players that care have to face the emp buffed faction, making them feel terribly outgunned. When the two opposing factions actually focus the emp faction as intended, that health buff is a nice buff but hardly overpowered for the defending emp faction, especially when its down to the hard defense of the last emp keep.

The best ideals are often the worst direction to go.

This sounds like a fancy quote, but I disagree entirely. What about "ideals" make them poor goals on principle? What about the emp health buff being compensation for being focused by the other factions is necessarily poor design?

gabriebe

If large guilds on DC and AD played the game as it was intended to be played instead of trying to get the best clips of themselves farming pugs at random keeps, your problem would be solved. If there is an emp, both opposing factions should be focusing all their efforts in de-emping. It's not the game's designers fault that the lack of leadership is causing AD and DC to be caught in the neverending Nik/Ash gate battle instead.

With the changes to the scores though, it would be interesting if scrolls were a little easier to retrieve though. Open field temples with medium fortifications in the dead-ish zones would be far more interesting than attacking a trikeep where it is stashed.

Etaniel

I feel like objective play is doomed from the beginning, as long you allow nightcapping.

How do you motivate people who currently don't care about objectives? You add significant rewards, that can come in the forms of our current campaign rewards, or even weekly/daily campaign reward based on your faction's performance.

Problem is, you can't do that because of night capping. (inb4 bs argument of time zones blablabla)

There has to be some mechanic that forces people to play on the same campaign, it's bs that a 4 am, both CP campaigns are completely empty aside from that one group pvdooring the whole map. Both campaigns getting capped by a different faction mind you. Put those players in the same campaign and voila, no more nightcapping.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

ezeepeezee wrote: »

I agree with you. If I had my way, every keep, town, or otherwise major strategic location would have an associated territory, for which ownership would give the controlling faction's players buffs while in that territory. But the buffs should be associated with defense of the territory, e.g. HP buff for open field territory, range buff for territory with lots of verticality (cliffs, walls, etc.), and so on. Scrolls would only add faction-wide increases to resources gained - increased AP gains, shipments of alchemy mats, that kind of thing.

The design of Cyrodiil is incredibly simplistic. Like mind-blowingly poor. In the rest of the game there are all kinds of different, interesting visuals and terrain that would be an absolute blast to PVP in. In Cyrodiil you get 95% open fields, with some rocks and logs. It's really, really bad. In fact I think that much of the game's perceived lack of balance is due to the layout of Cyrodiil - like of course high damage ranged classes are going to overperform in an environment with nothing but open fields..

Cyrodiil doesn't just need tuning. It needs a complete overhaul. The layout, the scoring, the buffs, just the entire system. Everything.

This ^ ---- favorite places are in Ebonheart and Aldmeri territory of course. Mountain pass east of Arrius Keep, Cheydinhal, and the bridge battles and the tactics in bridge hopping. Daggerfall Covenant fighting areas are pretty bland to say positively. Wish more reason to fight in Chorrol with lava flows and narrow, wooden bridges with two-story homes and entries. I want more of this.

pcar944

"objective" gameplay in this game has died a long time ago

when people realized ZoS really doesn't care about PVP "community"

to me, PVP really died once 1 Tamriel went live

Mr_Nobody

hey once IA logs on you know KC is about to be PvDoored. Objective play, there you go!

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

The faction that crowned an Emperor currently gets the health buff because ideally the other two factions now focus them together to dethrone the emperor.

If the alliances aren't focusing the defending emp faction because the health bonus is too strong, then thats a problem with the health bonus.

If the other alliances aren't focusing the defending emp faction because they'd rather fight each other and not care about the objectives, that's a different problem with a different solution.

I suspect its both. Only some players on each faction actually care about the dethrone and so those fewer players that care have to face the emp buffed faction, making them feel terribly outgunned. When the two opposing factions actually focus the emp faction as intended, that health buff is a nice buff but hardly overpowered for the defending emp faction, especially when its down to the hard defense of the last emp keep.

I seriously doubt that two factions are choosing to avoid facing the emp faction merely because of a health bonus. Heck, bonuses used to be much stronger than they are now.

To OP's comments, I find it difficult to take the comments seriously since they do not even take into account the recent changes which are to directly help underdog and underpopulated factions.

Drastically reduced the under-population and Underdog evaluation periods. This will result in alliances getting Underdog or under-population bonus scoring adjustments more frequently.
While under the benefit of Underdog or under-population, capturing and holding your native objectives will give a bonus towards Campaign Scoring.

That is to clearly give some more incentive to players from those to factions to join in. I would think that one woujld need to see how this change affects Cyrodiil, especially when suggestions at this time do not even mention these changes, before making a worthy suggestion.

Just my 2 cents.

VaranisArano

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

hey once IA logs on you know KC is about to be PvDoored. Objective play, there you go!

We laugh, but yeah. That's objective play and its not actually a bad thing. I mean, I don't enjoy it as an EP player, but I don't condemn IA for it either. Here's why:

I can't stand when people are all like "OMG get off the emp ring and stop zerging!"

"Okay, I guess we'll get off the emp ring and hit this back keep!"

Nobody wants to sit around and defend the back keeps waiting for them to be hit, so the cry goes up "OMG, stop PVDooring!"

"Okay...I guess we're back to the defended keeps...on the emp ring...where the PUGs are..." and a zerg forms.


Fact is, when you play objectives, you often PvDoor something that's left undefended simply because most PVPers don't want to sit and guard the back keeps. Either that, or you are joining the zerging around the emp ring. There's rarely a middle ground and players who focus objectives just can't win.

pcar944

VaranisArano wrote: »

*snip*


Fact is, when you play objectives, you often PvDoor something that's left undefended simply because most PVPers don't want to sit and guard the back keeps. Either that, or you are joining the zerging around the emp ring. There's rarely a middle ground and players who focus objectives just can't win.

you try to explain this to people who don't group or understand that there is A LOT on the map you can go hit to spread people out, and you don't need to have 200 players in the same square inch on the map with half of them casing healing springs and mutagen

good luck

zyk

VaranisArano wrote: »

We laugh, but yeah. That's objective play and its not actually a bad thing. I mean, I don't enjoy it as an EP player, but I don't condemn IA for it either. Here's why:

I can't stand when people are all like "OMG get off the emp ring and stop zerging!"

"Okay, I guess we'll get off the emp ring and hit this back keep!"

Nobody wants to sit around and defend the back keeps waiting for them to be hit, so the cry goes up "OMG, stop PVDooring!"

"Okay...I guess we're back to the defended keeps...on the emp ring...where the PUGs are..." and a zerg forms.


Fact is, when you play objectives, you often PvDoor something that's left undefended simply because most PVPers don't want to sit and guard the back keeps. Either that, or you are joining the zerging around the emp ring. There's rarely a middle ground and players who focus objectives just can't win.

While I can't speak to the actions of that particular group, typically groups that pvdoor do not stick around to defend. In that case, it's not beneficial because it just leads to more pvdoor when the keeps they take and then abandon are taken back.

That is the antithesis of PVP. It goes against the grain of Cyrodiil and is therefore not beneficial. Everyone in Cyrodiil should be, ultimately, looking for fights.

raasdal

The problem is, as a Solo player i do not give two ***** about who is EMP and who is not. Yeah, the extra HP is nice, but not enough so, that i would even consider contributing to the "campaign" by sieging or taking keeps.

So while i am not concerned about the offensive/defensive bonuses, i do think the OP is on to something. If there were more tangible rewards for having EMP, it would rank higher on my list of concerns.

To keep in line with OP's thought pattern, the faction with EMP should not get buffed, but rather get rewarded, and thus motivated to keep the EMP.

The easy solution i see here, is to do some scaling AP bonus. 25% / 50% / 75% etc. based on time EMP has reingned or something?

frozywozy

raasdal wrote: »

The problem is, as a Solo player i do not give two ***** about who is EMP and who is not. Yeah, the extra HP is nice, but not enough so, that i would even consider contributing to the "campaign" by sieging or taking keeps.

So while i am not concerned about the offensive/defensive bonuses, i do think the OP is on to something. If there were more tangible rewards for having EMP, it would rank higher on my list of concerns.

To keep in line with OP's thought pattern, the faction with EMP should not get buffed, but rather get rewarded, and thus motivated to keep the EMP.

The easy solution i see here, is to do some scaling AP bonus. 25% / 50% / 75% etc. based on time EMP has reingned or something?

From someone who has been there in the past, I understand the struggle and the grind that is to get on top of the leaderboard. If I can help to achieve emperorship for a deserving player, I will do what I can to assist.

VaranisArano

zyk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We laugh, but yeah. That's objective play and its not actually a bad thing. I mean, I don't enjoy it as an EP player, but I don't condemn IA for it either. Here's why:

I can't stand when people are all like "OMG get off the emp ring and stop zerging!"

"Okay, I guess we'll get off the emp ring and hit this back keep!"

Nobody wants to sit around and defend the back keeps waiting for them to be hit, so the cry goes up "OMG, stop PVDooring!"

"Okay...I guess we're back to the defended keeps...on the emp ring...where the PUGs are..." and a zerg forms.


Fact is, when you play objectives, you often PvDoor something that's left undefended simply because most PVPers don't want to sit and guard the back keeps. Either that, or you are joining the zerging around the emp ring. There's rarely a middle ground and players who focus objectives just can't win.

While I can't speak to the actions of that particular group, typically groups that pvdoor do not stick around to defend. In that case, it's not beneficial because it just leads to more pvdoor when the keeps they take and then abandon are taken back.

That is the antithesis of PVP. It goes against the grain of Cyrodiil and is therefore not beneficial. Everyone in Cyrodiil should be, ultimately, looking for fights.

Honestly, I disagree. Cyrodiil exists for the PVP fighting, sure, but it also exists as a wargame where beating the enemy means beating them strategically, sometimes without even having to fight the enemy raids.

But then again, I care more about objective-based play than I do about finding good fights regardless of their worth to my faction. I do plenty of fighting enemy players in a night in Cyrodiil, but I also see the strategy of PVDoor and how that plays into the overall victories in the Cyrodiil wargame both when I happen to be the one doing it and when the enemy does it.

But I doubt we'll agree on the value of objective based gameplay vs just finding really good fights (which sometimes overlaps and sometimes doesn't), so I'll just leave this be.

Soul_Demon

VaranisArano wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

hey once IA logs on you know KC is about to be PvDoored. Objective play, there you go!

We laugh, but yeah. That's objective play and its not actually a bad thing. I mean, I don't enjoy it as an EP player, but I don't condemn IA for it either. Here's why:

I can't stand when people are all like "OMG get off the emp ring and stop zerging!"

"Okay, I guess we'll get off the emp ring and hit this back keep!"

Nobody wants to sit around and defend the back keeps waiting for them to be hit, so the cry goes up "OMG, stop PVDooring!"

"Okay...I guess we're back to the defended keeps...on the emp ring...where the PUGs are..." and a zerg forms.


Fact is, when you play objectives, you often PvDoor something that's left undefended simply because most PVPers don't want to sit and guard the back keeps. Either that, or you are joining the zerging around the emp ring. There's rarely a middle ground and players who focus objectives just can't win.

Therein lies the real problem.....objective play is not checkers, its chess. There are a multitude of factors at play from how the scoring system works, to every little idiosyncratic part of the play in between where you are and getting there. And I do mean every part of the game. It isn't easy and to do it well has always been a challenge for those who choose to play that way. Its always going to be easier to simply hang it up and say 'I am gonna sit right here and wait'. The effort often required a guild to operate independently of the faction selflessly in order to make progress for the faction, leaving ticks and moving from a hotspot that doesn't matter to one that strategically does- and sometimes the fights their play can and does generate other faction players being attracted simply because they are randomly milling about. As a matter of fact one of the best plays is 'attracting the ungrouped players' to specific points on map to assist what you want rather than counting on the faction for a single thing while you immediately leave to take what does make an impact for the faction.

All of this is taxing and requires a great deal of work from the guild and members, high level of coordination and the ability to not need faction support at all to be successful at it. Most simply say forget it, too hard and not enough reward in it and even the faction doesn't appreciate the effort, why bother. Well, to be perfectly honest some people are competitive enough to realize they are not just playing the game, they are actually playing against other guilds doing the same thing- a game within a game where there is in fact a score that shows 'who won the most fights' over the course of the night. No suppositions, no "I feel like we won more" .....evidenced through the scoring system a chess game that has a definitive winner. The deciding factor on playing this way vs any other way is, from what I have observed, if you are the type that needs admiration and people to affirm how well you are performing- become a farmer of pugs, make videos. But if you like to win and are willing to push without reward and often criticisms from trifaction trash in your own zone chat- play the map. Ultimate challenge to fight not just the game, but thinking intelligent guilds on the other side doing the same thing.....nothing else is even close.

The number of changes instituted to directly combat the simple truth of how hard it is to fight someone devoted to winning are innumerable and long in their history in this game. Forums will show nothing more than the newest crop of those who rather than learn and perfect their play would rather 'explain why' its necessary for their gaming experience to double cost, reduce the number of players hit, reduce duration, change scoring system ect of yet another skill they mistakenly think is responsible for them not being a raging success in controlling the map and bending the game to their will.....its raw effort sustained over long periods of time. And there isn't any reward other than knowing you did it. No parades when its all done and not even appreciated by the faction.....but you and the guild know and if that isn't enough... Maybe there is my little pony game, or candy crush.

NightbladeMechanics

Am I the only one who feels like the meta of objective play is often chasing the jumping sorc across the map?

Yes?

Ok, I'll sit back down now.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels like the meta of objective play is often chasing the jumping sorc across the map?

Yes?

Ok, I'll sit back down now.

@NightbladeMechanics
Kill 20 sorcs is the only quest I accept in cyro

VaranisArano

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels like the meta of objective play is often chasing the jumping sorc across the map?

Yes?

Ok, I'll sit back down now.

Gotta make sure the jumping sorc isn't streaking away to put down a rez camp for their buddies

Vaoh

I don’t think a decent solution exists to any of these issues. Cyrodiil Campaigns were designed to fit OVER THREE TIMES the amount of players they can currently fit. Campaigns in the past supported around 2000 players. Now it’s around 600, maybe less. I’ll stick with this number because there is no definitive proof of it being less though despite it feeling that way a lot of times (lmk if there is).

Also the Imperial City did not exist. Players inside of a separate zone from the Alliance War/Cyrodiil PvP were not contributing to the population count of a campaign. So really a “pop-locked” campaign these days has so drastically less the amount of players in battle as before - ofc there are problems.

To rephrase, a campaign we currently play in that is “pop-locked” is at around 30% capacity of an old PvP campaigns’ maximum capacity, and plenty of players are not even inside of Cyrodiil itself in the current campaigns.

How can you possibly balance the current (unchanged) rulesets of Cyrodiil campaigns when a pop-locked Cyrodiil nowadays is essentially a one bar on all factions population in the past?

I don’t really have any solutions to this ZOS has done an incredible job making unpopular balance decisions that made people quit PvP and deteriorating ESO’s game performance enough to get Cyrodiil to this point. It’s too bad really. PvP was such a large selling point for ESO, yet now it’s rarely mentioned because so many of their past advertisements are not true anymore.

CyrusArya

VaranisArano wrote: »

Gotta make sure the jumping sorc isn't streaking away to put down a rez camp for their buddies

Meh. Something about the nature of how the pugs chase, and the tenacity they demonstrate in their hot pursuit of a lone sorc with a dozen fellow zerglets, tells me that motives may vary. In all fairness, if I ever got brutally 1/2vXed by shield stacking macro hacking sorcs, I too would probably remember their names and be eager to deliver the retribution.

Anrose

VaranisArano wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels like the meta of objective play is often chasing the jumping sorc across the map?

Yes?

Ok, I'll sit back down now.

Gotta make sure the jumping sorc isn't streaking away to put down a rez camp for their buddies

False. Sorcs don’t have friends

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Anrose wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels like the meta of objective play is often chasing the jumping sorc across the map?

Yes?

Ok, I'll sit back down now.

Gotta make sure the jumping sorc isn't streaking away to put down a rez camp for their buddies

False. Sorcs don’t have friends

That's why they can summon pets to compensate.

Biro123

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels like the meta of objective play is often chasing the jumping sorc across the map?

Yes?

Ok, I'll sit back down now.

Gotta make sure the jumping sorc isn't streaking away to put down a rez camp for their buddies

False. Sorcs don’t have friends

That's why they can summon pets to compensate.

I talk to mine.

VaranisArano

Biro123 wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Anrose wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Am I the only one who feels like the meta of objective play is often chasing the jumping sorc across the map?

Yes?

Ok, I'll sit back down now.

Gotta make sure the jumping sorc isn't streaking away to put down a rez camp for their buddies

False. Sorcs don’t have friends

That's why they can summon pets to compensate.

I talk to mine.

I apologized to mine after I got overconfident on my MagSorc during round 2 of vMA and died when I had like 30k health left on the final centurion boss.

Biro123

I sometimes say in /zone stuff like 'my group are sieging Ash'. I think people are sometimes disappointed when they come to help and find it's just me and my matriarch..

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

I mean Atro, scamp, matriarch, daedroth and You is a large 5m group already

ezeepeezee

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

I mean Atro, scamp, matriarch, daedroth and You is a large 5m group already

I spitballed with friends about making a 4-man petsorc team to zerg down BGs...

Solariken

As for scrolls, I think they should be bane AND boon.

For example they could boost AP & XP gains by 10% but increase damage taken for all your faction members by 5%.

This way there would be huge benefit for holding them but there would be a cost associated.