[Class Rep] Werewolf Feedback Thread

Aznox

Koolio wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

- Allow use of synergies
- Allow rez
- Fix bugs
- Fix animations
- Change Blood Rage from damage received to damage dealt (= PvE perma wolf)
- Make Tormentor set work with the leap (= taunt)
- Optional : revisit the unused morphs.

/thread ?

One down, 5 more to go !

improving their ferocity and momentum in combat

I think his is clearly going in the good direction !

There is a problem with this change in pvp though. If I’m close to loosing form I can currently pop my head around a corner and take some damage without being in the thick of it. Like get hit with a Flame reach and the break LOS while still getting time added.

Now if I’m close to loosing form I have to get from LOS into the enemies to keep form. Not a good change imo.

Should be a little of both.

This is a good change in PvP too, a single claw and you're good for more than 10 sec.

Unless your fighting a Templar. Who now has the ability to remove it.

I’m out of light of sight. Currently if I poke my head around the corner most the time I got vampires bane and can break LOS while still gaining time.

Now I have to come out of the tower gap close the Templar put a dot on him( only for them to cleanse it) and get back to LOS.

If the templar is alone just you go and cut him in half

I see what you mean, i do the same but its only really needed in Cyro when zerg surfing, and even there it will still be possible to do a quick leap-la-claws-dodge-heal-dode-sprint-heal for a quick 15 sec of timer recharge.

AmericanSpy

- Ability Morphs: Extremely limited uses for HALF of the WW ability morphs.

The only skill that has a usable alternate(to the meta) morph is claws(where "life" is used for PVE and "anguish" is used for PVP). Howl: has a morph that REQUIRES and activation, which your other W friends can't activate(even though the skill would be usable otherwise.) Roar: The buff for 20 sec brutality made this skill a 1 sided morph. The problem is that Ferocious is utterly useless outside of specific builds around utilizing offset advantages(which are FEW.) Fortitude suffers a similar fate as the abysmal HOT is not worth sacrificing 10% wep dmg

- Resource Management: Skills just cost to much.

This has reared it ugly head with the changes that occurred with the removal of cost reduction. Many classes received cost changes, WW seems to have been forgotten. The bonuses for HA resource gain is great but useless since HA is to clunky to manage effectively(another issue)

I wish I could go on...but fixing the numerous KNOWN bugs and oversights (including passives that "go away" (like weapon passives) after you transform, its just confusing) should be the basis of a rework.(sorry that's kinda a 3rd)

- Hircine

Lykanus

Koolio wrote: »

Unless your fighting a Templar. Who now has the ability to remove it.

The point is more, before you'd have to hope that someone will damage you to gain your seconds, yea most likely someone will do the favor for you, but still you had to _hope_ . If someone would turtle it out, you couldnt force to damage you.

Now you will have it in your own hands.

Saderis

Hmm two pain points:

1)Way too short uptime

2) Werewolf size: It feels bad to be shorter then khajiit as a "monster". Not to mention ww looks quite weak, especially when nord character transforms - "woof I just lost a foot of height and 100lbs weight. Fear me!"

Qbiken

AmericanSpy wrote: »

- Ability Morphs: Extremely limited uses for HALF of the WW ability morphs.

The only skill that has a usable alternate(to the meta) morph is claws(where "life" is used for PVE and "anguish" is used for PVP). Howl: has a morph that REQUIRES and activation, which your other W friends can't activate(even though the skill would be usable otherwise.) Roar: The buff for 20 sec brutality made this skill a 1 sided morph. The problem is that Ferocious is utterly useless outside of specific builds around utilizing offset advantages(which are FEW.) Fortitude suffers a similar fate as the abysmal HOT is not worth sacrificing 10% wep dmg

- Resource Management: Skills just cost to much.

This has reared it ugly head with the changes that occurred with the removal of cost reduction. Many classes received cost changes, WW seems to have been forgotten. The bonuses for HA resource gain is great but useless since HA is to clunky to manage effectively(another issue)

I wish I could go on...but fixing the numerous KNOWN bugs and oversights (including passives that "go away" (like weapon passives) after you transform, its just confusing) should be the basis of a rework.(sorry that's kinda a 3rd)

- Hircine

Problem is that Rousing Roar already gives you off-balance. That makes Ferocious Roar utterly useless. Ferocious Roar should be remade into something that benefits the group.

And utilizing off-balance is the key to sustain as a werewolf. A heavy attack on an enemy that is off-balanced gives you 10k+ stamina back. But the main issue here is the clunky animation and hitbox of the heavy attack, which I hope gets some attention in the upcomming patch

Werewolfs having access to weapon-passives would be insanely un-balanced.

Mr_Wolfe

Aznox wrote: »

Ok, let's say we wanted to make werewolf timer management easier in Cyrodiil, then allowing to build back ultimate normally while transformed would allow to transform again immediately at the start of the next fight.
This would be much more simple than the re-balancing nightmare that making it a toggle would be, as we already discussed in the last pages of this thread.

I must have missed that part of the conversation. Could you point me to a page number? Because it seems to me that all this would do is bring werewolf more in line with the existing ults, no other re-balancing required. What am I missing that would make this such an issue compared to ults like overload, onslaught, shooting star, feral guardian, etc?

Allowing werewolves to gain ultimate while transformed could be a decent compromise though. It would make sets like Werewolf's Hide and Bloodspawn (and the Last Stand CP passive) more useful for werewolves, and would probably be easier to implement. It just wouldn't do as much to address the issues with all the stuff you can't do while in wolf form.

As for this other bit:

Aznox wrote: »

Current Werewolf :
All or nothing and extremely powerful but with a lot of bugs and too much limitations.

What i want :
All or nothing and extremely powerful , bug free and with less limitations (synergies, res, taunt, ..)

What you want :
On demand, tactical Werewolf, bug free and with less limitations.

I'm not saying your idea is bad, but even if ZoS could spare the devtime for such a major rework while they need months to fix a single bug on average, Werewolf would need to trade some power for it, simply because it cannot be made more than 5-10% stronger in 1v1 than they are currently.

That's why i think we should focus on things that would improve Werewolf Quality of Life but won't affect its 1v1 power too much.

Example of a new passive that would go this way :
Pursuit (additional effect) : When transformed, if there is an enemy within 28 meters affected by your bleeding, sprinting does not cost stamina. (or a reduced value, needs more balancing thought)

I think things like that could help in openworld or when getting focused by multiple players, without pushing werewolf over the top in 1v1 power.

All I want is for werewolf to be balanced. Tactical use of WW would be cool, but I suggested a toggle because there's precedent and it seemed like a relatively simple solution to most of the pain points mentioned in this thread. I don't know how this game is coded, but adjusting the code governing transformations and timer is probably much simpler than overhauling WW's interaction with multiple game mechanics to allow taunts, resses, synergies, etc. (I suspect it would be the difference between changing one subroutine and changing several.) Personally, I would love to be able to just stay in form and still do all those things, but I'm not sure the devs would go for it.

Also, I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of WW's power, 1v1 or otherwise. If WW was that strong in 1v1 every stamina dueling build would be using it, instead of it rarely being seen outside of WW shrines.

I'm a bit new to these forums, but I've seen your name around enough to know that you're considered one of the better WW players. If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that just about any build can become OP in the hands of a master, so please keep in mind that your personal experience running WW may not match up with the rest of us--or be a good indicator of WW's overall balance. That's not a L2P issue, that's a "Master samurai beating up dudes with a stick and then declaring that sticks are just as deadly as swords" issue, lol.

Don't get me wrong, I like my stick, but it's nowhere near as powerful as what everyone else is running around with. :P

I am definitely excited for the change to the bloodrage passive, though it's going to be a bit of an adjustment for a lot of people. Most WW players I know tend to rely on DoTs to keep their timers up. With that tactic going out the window, we'll need to adjust how we play and stop leaping into fire. Also, the fact that we can't purge DoT's is going to be a lot more aggravating, because there's no longer an upside. In PvP, where DoTs are everywhere but melees are usually fairly brief and far between, this is going to feel like more of a nerf.

Feizao

1) Sacrificing a bar to equip werewolf skilsl. Why not make ult work similar to sorc's overload

i made a werewolf character, but dont use 'em much. Probably b/c
2) Expensive ult cost & short duration

Aznox

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

I must have missed that part of the conversation. Could you point me to a page number? Because it seems to me that all this would do is bring werewolf more in line with the existing ults, no other re-balancing required. What am I missing that would make this such an issue compared to ults like overload, onslaught, shooting star, feral guardian, etc?

My bad, i was mixing up with this thread :
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/421694/should-werewolf-be-a-toggled-transformation-with-greater-detriments/p1

All I want is for werewolf to be balanced. Tactical use of WW would be cool, but I suggested a toggle because there's precedent and it seemed like a relatively simple solution to most of the pain points mentioned in this thread. I don't know how this game is coded, but adjusting the code governing transformations and timer is probably much simpler than overhauling WW's interaction with multiple game mechanics to allow taunts, resses, synergies, etc. (I suspect it would be the difference between changing one subroutine and changing several.) Personally, I would love to be able to just stay in form and still do all those things, but I'm not sure the devs would go for it.

Allowing synergies, res, etc.. would be a buff to werewolf.
Allowing easy in-and-out werewolf would just give a better ultimate to "humans".
The difference in amount of work would come from the necessity to re-balance werewolf completely around a massive change (toggle, see thread linked above) versus several incremental changes (+synergy ... +res ... +sneak?...)

Also, I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of WW's power, 1v1 or otherwise. If WW was that strong in 1v1 every stamina dueling build would be using it, instead of it rarely being seen outside of WW shrines.

Werewolf is rare on dueling grounds for several reasons :
- it shines with a build thought around it, so people can't slot it just for duels
- many high skill players (/streamers) don't bother with werewolf because it's bad for 1vX in openworld
- werewolf has quite a high build/knowledge/training floor, and has never been OP to motivate many going through it

Werewolf is very strong in duel because, if you are able to control the fight for some time, you can transform with yourself fully buffed and your opponent fully debuffed. With a toggle in battlegground against an opponent not running a full duel build, this would be even worse.

I'm not saying it is OP (a good durok-magdk,bleed-blade or pet-sorc is still above that) just that 1v1 is not the part where werewolf need more improvement than the long awaited bugfixes.

I'm a bit new to these forums, but I've seen your name around enough to know that you're considered one of the better WW players. If there's one thing I've learned over the years, it's that just about any build can become OP in the hands of a master, so please keep in mind that your personal experience running WW may not match up with the rest of us--or be a good indicator of WW's overall balance. That's not a L2P issue, that's a "Master samurai beating up dudes with a stick and then declaring that sticks are just as deadly as swords" issue, lol.

It's true that i'm one the players spending the most time fighting as a wolf in PvP on PC EU, however i'd say i'm "only" very good, not a top player at all. My werewolf success comes first from experience, training and build creation.

Don't get me wrong, I like my stick, but it's nowhere near as powerful as what everyone else is running around with. :P

the stick could use some sharpening, but i'm convinced QoL, bugfixes and a few subtle touches could very well be enough, we will still be able to look for more after, if needed.

The instant fear, for example, is a subtle change with very high impact, when you get CC'ed every 7 sec, you have nearly 1/7 chance to get interrupted during a 1 sec cast you use every 7 sec. This will give us better CC uptime and higher stam drain on our enemy.

I am definitely excited for the change to the bloodrage passive, though it's going to be a bit of an adjustment for a lot of people. Most WW players I know tend to rely on DoTs to keep their timers up. With that tactic going out the window, we'll need to adjust how we play and stop leaping into fire. Also, the fact that we can't purge DoT's is going to be a lot more aggravating, because there's no longer an upside. In PvP, where DoTs are everywhere but melees are usually fairly brief and far between, this is going to feel like more of a nerf.

Outside of Cyrodiil, it was and will stay easy to keep timer during a real fight , but now we won't be loosing timer when chasing/finishing a dying target or lone healer.

My gut feeling is that you should not be worried.

Coolio_Wolfus

WW could potentially have their reversion timer stopped whilst in (PVE) combat/delve/dungeon, this would allow more time to focus on combat with the need to feed kicking in when out of combat, such as feeding on sheep between delves/quests.

[Edit]
Forgot to add that the WW ultimate is not costing what it should, it actually 0's your ultimate when cast rather than using it's listed cost, which with full ultimate means you lose the ability to reactivate it without having to fight to gain more ultimate.
[/Edit]

As for their look well I'm sure Hircine could be persuaded to add a Werecat (Khajit default) and Werebear (Nord/Orc default) to the mix, changeable at a shrine to Hircine.
Their combat skills and pets would effectively be identical but with a differnt look. Werebear feral charge instead of pounce but with identical effects. (Like the "Any race any alliance" and similar options, I would pay Crowns to unlock these two WW (Skin, skill and combat pet visual.) options.

Coolio_Wolfus

Coming changes:
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26439?Wolfhunter-&-Update-19-preview

Werewolves Updated

If you have a character that carries the curse of lycanthropy, you can enjoy a series of broad improvements and changes to how the Werewolf Skill Line plays with Update 19. These changes place an emphasis on improving their ferocity and momentum in combat, and they affect both the Skill Line's Passive and Active Abilities. For example, the Blood Rage Passive will now increase the duration of your transformation when you deal damage instead of when you take it, and the Roar Active Ability is now instant cast.

RiskyBiz

Okay here is my thoughts on werewolf currently

1. Cost of skills are way too high to maintain a prolonged fight ( I know some of you are going to saw werewolf isn't meant to fight in ww form forever) Changes to CP with removal of cost reduction could be a factor to also look at.....My point would love to see some of the skills cost less

2. HEAL lol we all know about the magicka heal on a stam based class...idk if changing it would make werewolf too strong but something with the heal needs to be done...maybe burst heal with a lingering heal like warden trees.....don't judge me

MAKE WEREWOLF GREAT......first post I know I'm all over the place will get better

Sharee

RiskyBiz wrote: »

Okay here is my thoughts on werewolf currently

1. Cost of skills are way too high to maintain a prolonged fight ( I know some of you are going to saw werewolf isn't meant to fight in ww form forever) Changes to CP with removal of cost reduction could be a factor to also look at.....My point would love to see some of the skills cost less

You need to use the skills sparingly, and mainly rely on light attacks(and their bleed) for damage - they are brutal!
When low on stamina, put the enemy off-balance (either by using the WW fear, or dodging their attack if you have the CP passive) and then heavy attack them - it restores tons of stamina if you can pull it off.

RiskyBiz wrote: »

3. HEAL lol we all know about the magicka heal on a stam based class...idk if changing it would make werewolf too strong but something with the heal needs to be done...maybe burst heal with a lingering heal like warden trees.....don't judge me

MAKE WEREWOLF GREAT......first post I know I'm all over the place will get better

The heal is actually one of the best heals in the game. You just don't perceive it that way because as a (stamina)WW your magicka pool/spell damage(which the heal scales off of) aren't that great. There are ways around that however...

Qbiken

RiskyBiz wrote: »

Okay here is my thoughts on werewolf currently

1. Cost of skills are way too high to maintain a prolonged fight ( I know some of you are going to saw werewolf isn't meant to fight in ww form forever) Changes to CP with removal of cost reduction could be a factor to also look at.....My point would love to see some of the skills cost less

2. HEAL lol we all know about the magicka heal on a stam based class...idk if changing it would make werewolf too strong but something with the heal needs to be done...maybe burst heal with a lingering heal like warden trees.....don't judge me

MAKE WEREWOLF GREAT......first post I know I'm all over the place will get better

1. I´m a big advocate for the "permawolf" playstyle. With the correct build and experience it outperforms a "burst-wolf" 24/7. I would like to see a small cost-reduction to the skills (maybe 5-10% at most). Otherwise using heavy attacks against off-balanced enemies is the "secret" to sustain.


2 .Down below is a screenshot from Cyrodil on my current build (yes I´m using Pelinial). By using Pelinial I give up quite a lot of max stats and recovery but in return I get a lot out of Hircine´s Rage. A popular suggestion is to make the heal scale of weapon damage and max stamina. Now imagine if I could ditch Pelinial and still get the same heals. I can go for more sustain, more tankiness or even more damage if I´d like to. It would be like throwing balance out the window. Hircine´s Rage is an incredible powerful heal, you just need to adjust your build accordingly.

RiskyBiz

Sharee wrote: »

RiskyBiz wrote: »

Okay here is my thoughts on werewolf currently

1. Cost of skills are way too high to maintain a prolonged fight ( I know some of you are going to saw werewolf isn't meant to fight in ww form forever) Changes to CP with removal of cost reduction could be a factor to also look at.....My point would love to see some of the skills cost less

You need to use the skills sparingly, and mainly rely on light attacks(and their bleed) for damage - they are brutal!
When low on stamina, put the enemy off-balance (either by using the WW fear, or dodging their attack if you have the CP passive) and then heavy attack them - it restores tons of stamina if you can pull it off.

RiskyBiz wrote: »

3. HEAL lol we all know about the magicka heal on a stam based class...idk if changing it would make werewolf too strong but something with the heal needs to be done...maybe burst heal with a lingering heal like warden trees.....don't judge me

MAKE WEREWOLF GREAT......first post I know I'm all over the place will get better

The heal is actually one of the best heals in the game. You just don't perceive it that way because as a (stamina)WW your magicka pool/spell damage(which the heal scales off of) aren't that great. There are ways around that however...

Yeah I am new to werewolf so not too experienced....I will take your points into consideration and try them out....Do you think werewolf still needs improvements I am speaking from a solo player standpoint I don;t do alot of group play

RiskyBiz

Qbiken wrote: »

RiskyBiz wrote: »

Okay here is my thoughts on werewolf currently

1. Cost of skills are way too high to maintain a prolonged fight ( I know some of you are going to saw werewolf isn't meant to fight in ww form forever) Changes to CP with removal of cost reduction could be a factor to also look at.....My point would love to see some of the skills cost less

2. HEAL lol we all know about the magicka heal on a stam based class...idk if changing it would make werewolf too strong but something with the heal needs to be done...maybe burst heal with a lingering heal like warden trees.....don't judge me

MAKE WEREWOLF GREAT......first post I know I'm all over the place will get better

1. I´m a big advocate for the "permawolf" playstyle. With the correct build and experience it outperforms a "burst-wolf" 24/7. I would like to see a small cost-reduction to the skills (maybe 5-10% at most). Otherwise using heavy attacks against off-balanced enemies is the "secret" to sustain.


2 .Down below is a screenshot from Cyrodil on my current build (yes I´m using Pelinial). By using Pelinial I give up quite a lot of max stats and recovery but in return I get a lot out of Hircine´s Rage. A popular suggestion is to make the heal scale of weapon damage and max stamina. Now imagine if I could ditch Pelinial and still get the same heals. I can go for more sustain, more tankiness or even more damage if I´d like to. It would be like throwing balance out the window. Hircine´s Rage is an incredible powerful heal, you just need to adjust your build accordingly.

I just couldn't get into the whole pelinal's hybrid thing...haven't has much success with hybrids

RiskyBiz

JXNwarrior wrote: »

Pain Points:

1. Only usable heal scales off of magicka(?!)
2. Devour Synergy is unreliable.

Possible Solutions:
1. Scale the heal from Max or Missing Health, one morph applies a meaningful (not currently) HoT, other synergizes with other WWs
2. Increase reliability, range and speed up animation of Devour Synergy

Good point about the heal

Zardayne

I'd like to see Werewolf (and Vampire) abilities scale to max stat that way a mage could use werewolf and a stam warrior could use vampire. This would open up even more class builds. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Gargath

I'd like to play a dedicated magicka healer and still be a good (not perfect) werewolf.
Instead I heal a huge amount but deal no damage (as below).

IlCanis_LupuslI

Soooooo is the permawolf still beeing talked about

Aznox

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424230/pts-patch-notes-v4-1-0/p1

Lots of long awaited changes but they killed the miracle that was hybrid werewolf.

By removing the magicka scaling heal they made werewolf an "easy for everyone, great for no-one" thing.

Even as a stam build without Pelinal (shacklebreaker + tristats) the 45% heal is a nerf to me.

Also anyone who was having fun with a 64points-into-magicka werewolf can go back to vampire.

Sad, the other changes are good.

RaptorRodeoGod

They removed the 18% weapon damage boost from hircines rage and gave it major brutality. I'm super bitter about that. And the blood rage passive has a longer cooldown that the time it give in WW form (4s added, 5s cooldown). I get the impression that it's not going to be easier to keep form during long boss fights.

All the other stuff seems pretty rad from a PvE perspective though.

(Edit) Hircine's Rage gave 10% weapon damage, not 18%.

TIMBR0SLICE

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

They removed the 18% weapon damage boost from hircines rage..

They removed the 18% from the savage strength passive. Hircines rage had the 10% weapon damage increase (now major brutality). looks like they took out the the 100% stam gain from heavy attacks in Pursuit as well. Does anyone see if those passive bonuses were just moved else were?

esp1992

Aznox wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424230/pts-patch-notes-v4-1-0/p1

Lots of long awaited changes but they killed the miracle that was hybrid werewolf.

By removing the magicka scaling heal they made werewolf an "easy for everyone, great for no-one" thing.

Even as a stam build without Pelinal (shacklebreaker + tristats) the 45% heal is a nerf to me.

Also anyone who was having fun with a 64points-into-magicka werewolf can go back to vampire.

Sad, the other changes are good.

I know how you feel on that.
Very excited for the other changes though.

RaptorRodeoGod

TIMBR0SLICE wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

They removed the 18% weapon damage boost from hircines rage..

They removed the 18% from the savage strength passive. Hircines rage had the 10% weapon damage increase (now major brutality). looks like they took out the the 100% stam gain from heavy attacks in Pursuit as well. Does anyone see if those passive bonuses were just moved else were?

Whoops I get the two mixed up sometimes. They removed the extra weapon damage from the passive?

(Edit) The passive still keeps weapon damage, the patch notes say the passive ALSO has the new effect.

Mr_Wolfe

I was under the impression they added the movement speed and defense buffs to those passives, not that they replaced the old effects.

[Edit] Yeah, they both say "This ability now also" does yadda yadda, so we aren't losing the previous/current effect of those passives.

Overall I'm a bit concerned about some of these changes. The more I look at them, the more most of them seem like nerfs.[/edit]

Chrlynsch

Werewolf is stronger than ever.

RaptorRodeoGod

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

I was under the impression they added the movement speed and defense buffs to those passives, not that they replaced the old effects.

[Edit] Yeah, they both say "This ability now also" does yadda yadda, so we aren't losing the previous/current effect of those passives.

Overall I'm a bit concerned about some of these changes. The more I look at them, the more most of them seem like nerfs.[/edit]

Honestly the removal of the 10% weapon damage bonus from Hircine's Rage is the most glaring nerf PvE wise (to me at least). Everything else seems to be more or less a buff though (for PvE). I'm interested to see what my SOLO wolf form up time and DPS are after the update.

Sharee

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Werewolf is stronger than ever.

I'm not sure... the heal change isn't actually a nerf to me since i wasn't using pelinal, but i'm worried about other stuff.

Losing stun on howl means i can no longer get through sorc shields with howl/LA/LA since they will just put that 10K barrier right back after howl.

The change to fear means i get to fear them instantly, but then face a 1sec ability CD before i can use any skills - a sec during which they will break free and back up the shield goes. (before with 1s cast time, the fear got applied just as my abilities CD ended, allowing me to use a skill on a target that was still feared).

Time will tell if my concerns are valid, but i'm not all that excited after reading the notes.

Aznox

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Werewolf is stronger than ever.

I agree, even though @Sharee concerns are valid, the overall picture is clearly a buff (although half the buff comes from bugfixes)

I'm just sad the interesting hybrid capabilities of werewolf were sacrificed to make it more mainstream/accessible.

Mr_Wolfe

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Mr_Wolfe wrote: »

I was under the impression they added the movement speed and defense buffs to those passives, not that they replaced the old effects.

[Edit] Yeah, they both say "This ability now also" does yadda yadda, so we aren't losing the previous/current effect of those passives.

Overall I'm a bit concerned about some of these changes. The more I look at them, the more most of them seem like nerfs.[/edit]

Honestly the removal of the 10% weapon damage bonus from Hircine's Rage is the most glaring nerf PvE wise (to me at least). Everything else seems to be more or less a buff though (for PvE). I'm interested to see what my SOLO wolf form up time and DPS are after the update.

Healing Nerfs:

The change to Hircine's Bounty is a nerf to most currently effective wolf builds. It changes the priority from stamina/weapon damage + magicka/spell damage to stamina/weapon damage + health, which not only renders hybrid sets like shacklebreaker and pelinial's less effective, but also means things that increase your max weapon and spell damage (such as Kena, berzerk weapon enchant, etc) no longer boost your healing.

It also removes the heal over time from the Hircine's Fortitude morph, which makes you reliant on claws of life or healing potions to proc Earthgore, which is basically the only way a werewolf can group heal.

Damage:

The 10% buff to light and heavy attacks granted by Howl of Despair's 'Feeding Frenzy' synergy has been replaced with a much shorter duration Empower. This doesn't apply to heavy attacks, doesn't stack with othet sources of empower, and judging by the wording now only affects the person activating the synergy, instead of buffing the whole group. So while it could be as much as a 30% increase for the person activating it, the other people in your party not getting the buff makes this a net loss--which gets worse the bigger your group is.

The 10% damage buff from Hircine's Rage was removed, and replaced with Major Brutality. Just one person running Rousing Roar used to give Major Brutality to your entire group, now each werewolf will have to choose between a 20% damage buff or a slightly bigger heal.

Only one of the morphs to Roar causes Off-Balance now. The other morph inflicts Major Fracture, which doesn't stack with the numerous other sources of that debuff--in addition to making it harder to sustain and causing everyone in the group to miss out on the extra damage granted by the exploiter passive.

We lost our stuns, making it much harder to take down mobs and other players in PvP.

No fix for the bonus LA/HA damage we lost due to a dev mistake with Summerset, which effectively nerfed WW by leaving us out while just about everyone else got a buff to their light attack damage.

Timer:

The new version of bloodrage is a nerf. It's easier to trigger since it procs on dealing damage instead of taking it, but they increased the cooldown so you can't actually stop your timer with this ability, just slow it down. That means the new version actually makes it harder to maintain werewolf form.

There are some upsides: A tiny boost to resistances. (34 points, lol) The ability to rez. (Long overdue) The ability to use synergies. (Which doesn't actually do anything unless you're in a party with non-werewolves.) Faster leveling and immediate access to Devour. (Which does nothing if you've already maxed your werewolf.) Improvements to how Devour works. (Yes!) Buffs to Pack Leader's direwolves and a few much needed bugfixes.

But overall? We're stuck even tighter n a very narrow niche (Stamina DPS), while Vampire remains an improvement to virtually any build--and now our effectiveness in that niche has been nerfed hard despite the fact that we were already underperforming.

Not real happy about that.