[Class Rep] Warden Feedback Thread

Edrein

1. Like most people I'm annoyed by the inability to create a serious and realistic cryomancer/frostmage DPS build. Sprinkle frost damage into Animal Companions and ditch the wonky magic damage idea because you needed to sell War Maiden as a set at the time of release.

2. Ditch the one role per tree design. If anything warden has proved how terrible and wonky this is, how it completely destroys versatility and variance by forcing pigeon-holed design decisions in place. AKA: Turning Frost Staves into an tanking item rather than creating an Alteration staff with appropriate tank buffs, taunts, and debuffs. Let alone turning all Frost damage into a weird tanking spec rather than giving us the fore-mentioned cryomancers everyone's wanted since first encountering NPC frost mages. The additional changes to try and make other classes take this route is going to keep harming class identity, variability, and build choices.

Fiktius

I would love to see mag Warden receiving some love in the future:

1) Give a class ability which will deal damage and stun opponents.
Currently inferno staves are used for that purpose, which lowers down the potentiality of ice staff usage. (Which is pity btw!)

2) Buff frost damage and make frost staff viable DPS wise.

esp1992

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

1. I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but I like to see one of the first two Animal Companion abilities to become a permanent pet. I like something other than the Bear to follow me around, just 1 extra combat pet would be nice. Dive could be a Cliff Racer that follows you around attacking on its own with the Activation Ability being its Dive attack at your target. Scorch could be a Fire Shalk that follows you around with a short ranged breath attack, its morph could either be a Thunderbug or a Poison Shalk and the Activation Ability causes it to exhale the line attack it does now. At least one of these abilities become a normal combat pet, not both.

2. I personally don't see the point to Gripping Shards morph, I have a magicka warden tank and find Winter's Revenge far more useful as it gives you a direct target range ability to pull targets to me. The damage for Winter's Revenge scales far better than Gripping Shards, you need a 50,000 health pool to gain any substantial damage with it and it's still lower than a 20,000 Max Magicka pool Winter's Revenge. The Immobilize bonus is dumb when most are already pairing their Chilled bonuses with Wall of Elements.

I would scrap the Falcon Swiftness and have a Dire Wolf combat pet instead.

erlewine

If Ice Staff tanking is going to consume Magicka, then Wardens need to be pretty much rebuilt, which I'm fine with. It feels like their original design philosophy was basically "Look at what makes other classes good, and give Wardens a weaker version" - look at the Warden tank, in comparison to DK. They have a worse version of Chains (frozen circle), worse version of self-sustain with Natures Gift and Netch, worse version of Reflect, worse version of root, worse versions of self-heals, etc. None of their abilities are unique, and ultimately you end up asking the question "What does Warden bring over DK?," and if theres no good answer, why wouldn't you just log on DK instead?

They could've been a completely unique class. Ice Staff tanking could be a real thing if they actually reduced cost or gave them an inverted mechanic to DK sustain, like trading stam or health for magicka, as well as spending health/stam for essential tanking abilities, so that Wardens can maintain the delicate resource balance that DKs are so good at. They could bring different group utility than a DK, like being able to heal the group effectively, or buff party members damage or regen or defense or anything. Or debuff enemies effectively. Just anything that isn't a worse version of an ability already in the game.

Soleya

1) Bear is important for decent DPS, but it's AI is really bad, survivability is bad and it's not welcome in most trials because of aggro issues. Make the bear invincible or very high health (PVE) and make it actually target mobs. in vMA it attacks broken pillars on stage 8 instead of mobs. It also tends to run back and forth a lot not doing anything (problem with most attack pets)

2) Abilities need tweaks.
- Shalks - Better solution would be reduce burst damage but add a 3 second dot. Would allow a PVE buff without being able to nuke players in PVP. Maybe even make it fire twice so it's not so clumsy in a rotation.
- Lotus - Increase duration to 30 seconds. it currently falls off mid rotation and doesn't line up well with netch.
- Cliff Racer - needs a damage buff, it's less useful than any other spammable available to both magic and stamina warden, or give it an empower buff.

On a side note, the Indrik mobs in Summerset have way more interesting abilities then the bear. Maybe replacing one morph with an Indrik.

esp1992

Gonna get alot of hate for this...

Would love to have Arctic Blast Morph Scale with Max Magicka and Spell Damage in addition to Healing and Dealing Frost Damage. Kinda like what you did with Winter’s Revengesacing with Magicka and Spell Damage.

Kreshja

IMO, the best way to solve Warden crisis through 2 pain points is asking the devs 2 questions:

1. what is the identity of Warden and what is its positioning compared to other classes?
2. what tools can let Warden reach such goal effectively and make Warden unique and inseparable from the game experience?

-- possible answers:
1) Warden should be able to range DD, tank and heal just as well as the other classes in both PVE and PVP:
= DD example: raise Warden DPS by adding "X% chance to summon extra 1~3 birds to attack target" to each cast of Dive's morphs, or change Dive entirely to a buff skill that gives such effect when Warden direct damages target;
= Tank example: give minor maim and snare effect to Arctic Wind and its morphs, and change its tick per 2 secs over 10 secs to per 1 sec over 5 secs;
= Healer example: change Healing Seed & its morphs to "grow X flowers consecutively at random locations within 8 meter area for X seconds, each flower emanates a healing aura of 2 meters, groupmates can also synergize the flowers for X heal but synergized flower will disappear, the 10 meter field gives a burst heal when skill duration ends or when skill is activated again, and all flowers disappear, only 1 flower field can exist at a time," while the defile morph doesn't have the option of second skill activation for a burst heal.

2) Warden is a buff class and can't replace NB/DK/Temp for the top spot of DD/Tank/Healer:
= add a synergy to Netch so groupmates can restore X stamina/magicka whichever pool is higher, actually just give synergies to a lot of warden skills;
= DD example: add "give minor courage, increasing 129 weapon and spell damage, to groupmates within 8 meter range (including self) for 6 secs whenever Warden uses Animial Companion skill" to one of Animal Companion's passives;
= Tank example: add "give minor Evasion and minor Berserk for 6 secs to all groupmates (including self) affected by Winters Embrace skills" to one of Winters Embrace's passives, and change Crystalized Slab to instead of sending back a damaging projectile, send a healing slab to a groupmate;
= Healer example: add "after casting Green Balance skills, Warden gains a unique buff for 6 secs that grants 20% chance to let a groupmate (including self) instantly and automatically revive when dies without consuming trial vitality count but consuming the buff" to one of Green Balance passives.

3) Warden should excel as only DD or tank or heal, but not all 3:
= a mix of above.

4) Warden should proudly remain as the epitome of "Pay To Lose" for the whole industry to worship.

FrancisCrawford

Unlike many folks, I find Magden fun to play in PvE. So my top pain point is that the numbers are so low (damage and healing alike) that it's inadvisable to play.

Uviryth

1.) Underwhelming DPS compared to the other classes
2.) Classfantasy according to the Cinematic with a lot of Ice and Twohanded weapons. In reality you mostly see the stupid Shalks (who completely break immersion if youre not a native Ashlander. I am a Nord for example). Plus, why are there no skins for our Pets and Summons? Every other game has them, even WoW. I want an Ice-StaminaDD

JohnOfMarkarth

two points? two points then. One of which is not even a problem of the class

1) the biggest one... ICE MAGE? pls yes... ICE MAGIC = Tanking? What the pinkbunnies?! Is it a Destruction staff for fook sake? Or alteration staff? If you want magtanking make a line for it, alteration staff for instance... Dont make a DESTRUCTION (You get what that word even means?) staff into tanking tool thats not even crazy... thats just... childishly silly

2) You have to use so many abilities just for buffs before you even get to use those un-amusing dots, and an underwhelming winter's revenge (which should deal higher dmg)... So many buff abilites so few damagers, even fewer ICE abilites, clanky ultimate based execute (please make an ice spike spell execute or something)
this point is not multiple ones, its simply skill line missmanagement. Move properties around or move them to passives and get an execute

Vandark

The big problem with warden is not the idea of making a supportive class which is able to help group members (by tanking, healing, buffing) it is rather bad designed regarding standing alone as a class. The reason why wardens have so many powerful buffs is the reason why stamina wardens are too strong because they combine for example insane dmg and healing of two handed skills with utility skills of class line. On the other hand, Magicka wardens are much too weak, because u can´t buff someone dead. The class needs some useful attack skills like a frostbolt (e.g. with stun), a reworked artic blast with more healing or a real dmg version of it.

_Ahala_

JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »

two points? two points then. One of which is not even a problem of the class

1) the biggest one... ICE MAGE? pls yes... ICE MAGIC = Tanking? What the pinkbunnies?! Is it a Destruction staff for fook sake? Or alteration staff? If you want magtanking make a line for it, alteration staff for instance... Dont make a DESTRUCTION (You get what that word even means?) staff into tanking tool thats not even crazy... thats just... childishly silly

2) You have to use so many abilities just for buffs before you even get to use those un-amusing dots, and an underwhelming winter's revenge (which should deal higher dmg)... So many buff abilites so few damagers, even fewer ICE abilites, clanky ultimate based execute (please make an ice spike spell execute or something)
this point is not multiple ones, its simply skill line missmanagement. Move properties around or move them to passives and get an execute

^^^ This ^^^

Vizikul

I main a stamina warden (damage dealer - archer) and here are my top two pain points.

1. The animal companion skill line is supposed to be a dps skill line and provides 5 abilities + 1 ultimate. Out of those 5 abilities, only 3 abilities do actual damage. Betty netch and falcon's swiftness are rather utility skills (they aren't bad but the dps skill line feels pitiful).

2. The swarm ability (my favorite one) is unusable for a stamina warden since there is no stamina morph and neither the skill nor its morphs scale from max stamina or weapon damage. Swarm is a damage over time ability but as a stamina warden it only deals about 6k dmg over 10 seconds, while it deals about 26k dmg as a magicka warden. Because of this there are only 2 class abilities + 1class ultimate for stamina wardens to deal damage (d'uh!). Solutions: A ) make one of its morphs consume stamina, which I do not recommend because then the devs limit the player's choice which morph to use. B ) make the ability scale from the highest resource including max stamina and weapon dmg (just like meteor). This way stamina users can also make use of this ability and have the freedom to choose their favorite morph.

I still want to mention that the stamina morph of the dive ability (cutting dive) does not add any additional effect to the ability, while the magicka morph (screaming cliff racer) adds +15% additional damage depending on range. That doesn't seem fair. Give cutting dive an additional effect, please.

Maura_Neysa

erlewine wrote: »

If Ice Staff tanking is going to consume Magicka, then Wardens need to be pretty much rebuilt, which I'm fine with. It feels like their original design philosophy was basically "Look at what makes other classes good, and give Wardens a weaker version" - look at the Warden tank, in comparison to DK. They have a worse version of Chains (frozen circle), worse version of self-sustain with Natures Gift and Netch, worse version of Reflect, worse version of root, worse versions of self-heals, etc. None of their abilities are unique, and ultimately you end up asking the question "What does Warden bring over DK?," and if theres no good answer, why wouldn't you just log on DK instead?

@erlewine You actually got that backwards.
- Gate pulls bigger targets and applies Major Maim. Its more powerful
- Gripping roots for a second less but applies 12 seconds of a 30% slow and RNG gods grant even more roots
- Netch + Gift is more stamina return then War Horn once a minute + Igneous Shield every 4 seconds. (Havn't done the math to add in the Summerset change yet)
- Reflect? Are you F-ing kidding? No one is crying Nerf Wings, everyone is crying nerf Shimmering.
I agree Warden tank, is the best of every other tanking class. CC/Sustain of DK, Leeching Heals of NB, Burst Heal of Tamplar. The cost of it all is delay. 3 Frost skills = Root on cool down. Burst Heal is an Ultimate. HoTs require other events (take damage, have target, etc).
What a Warden brings over a DK, is self reliance. Its the thing people have said the whole time. Jack of all, master of none. The other other thing that the Warden brings is AoE Minor Maim, not just single target of Heroic Slash.

They could've been a completely unique class. Ice Staff tanking could be a real thing if they actually reduced cost or gave them an inverted mechanic to DK sustain, like trading stam or health for magicka, as well as spending health/stam for essential tanking abilities, so that Wardens can maintain the delicate resource balance that DKs are so good at. They could bring different group utility than a DK, like being able to heal the group effectively, or buff party members damage or regen or defense or anything. Or debuff enemies effectively. Just anything that isn't a worse version of an ability already in the game.

Either you don't actually tank or you haven't tanked on a Warden. Wardens have an infinity easier time maintaining that balance. It only takes maintaining 2 buffs. Now as for group utility, this point I can halfway concede. What the Warden brings is all things no one cares about. 10% max health, no one cares despite Ebon being BiS, that Minor Toughness supporting the gaps in War horns means nothing. Sure leader board guilds may keep it up 100% but for the PuG groups. AoE Minor Maim, again despite Heroic being golden, no one cares about the extra Miam. Also odd since Healers run Crusher just for an extra 2 proc's Though these are things that you listed as options. Also via Leeching, you are proc'ing Life Steal everywhere. Personally I run the Forest as my front bar Ulti. Which means every burn phase I have time to drop War Horn at the start and get the Forest back before the end. By the time Healers are having trouble keeping up, but I can add a 30k 10 second HoT.

Loifa has some excellent tank builds. Here is mine.
https://youtu.be/So3A13kSefQ

polgarah

We need an instant heal. Yes, we have mobility but the game's mechanical in vet and trials makes impossible to be everywhere. This is a huge disadvantage against templars.

Mag warden needs to be able to stun and deal damage.

I run my healer warden with just two ability class.... if this doesn't say anything to you I don't know what else I can say.

firedrgn

Vizier wrote: »

I short they need:

20-25% Increase in damage and healing.

Arctic wind and morphs need to be about double it's current strength.

Delayed effect spells need to have a shorter duration.

Frost damage needs some love.

Stun needs to be put back on Shalks.

I understand if the intention was for wardens to use Frost to CC, but the status effect even with Charged staff rarely procs and it's frost so damage is a joke.

Frost cc not procing does seem to be the case. Or maybe i have been on my mag sorc too long. The low damge would be more acceptible if ice wardens could actually freeze mea ing that perecent needs to be adjusted or the time does.

Elusiin

1. Wanted so badly for an dps ice mage skills... What we got was for tanks... Meh to say the least. Could we get an ability to shoot an ice projectile? At least 1 ice, single target, dps spammable would be nice...
2. The entire green balance skill tree is overloaded with buffs and feels generic... Maybe emove one or two of the buffs and give us something unique for green balance, like utility or another DPS skill like strife from Nightblades... It just doesn't feel good at all as it is, and the most unique ability I thought I would like was healing seed... But healing seed is never used because of how... stationary it is and that most people don't stand still long enough to benefit from it. If it was a ground based major courage, protection, evasion, etc, or even a HoT it would be more useful than a burst heal that almost never lands.

Mojomonkeyman

1. Crowd control:
It's a very basic philosophy that creating burst windows through hard cc is essential for being able to secure kills in PvP, even moreso in games like ESO without cooldowns on skills where your opponent can use their defensive skills without restrictions apart from ressources. Not having access to a hard class CC is disadvantaging MagWarden severly compared to any other setup. Not having a class execute is exacerbating the issue dramatically.

There even was an effort from development side to give all classes access to CC mechanics that would ignore most or all basic defense like block and/or dodge roll (petrify, rune cage, fear, total dark?). MagWarden has not only been excluded from that effort so far, it has also been stripped off the only CC mechanic in the entire toolset based on non-ultimate ressources. I personally can see no reason for that unfortunate circumstance and can only assume it was an oversight? Please be consistent, give MagWarden a proper toolset including accessible class CC.

2. Burst
MagWarden, when it was released, had a very clear and distinct timing structure for their damaging skills, a clear concept on how to layer burst and deliver damage in PvP. The "Feel" was fluid, natural and rewarding. The timing changes on Dive have negatively impacted that. The class has been ripped off its natural way of doing things and instead of layering skill (feels smart), it has now become about chaining skills (feels boring).

I can only assume it was a change aiming to make Dive to be more in line with like Crystal Frags for consistency reasons. Gameplay wise that makes little sense and can only hurt MagWarden since MagSorcs have native access to a wider range of skills that can be combined to create burst (Curse, Wrath). I strongly believe that reverting the timing changes to Dive would benefit MagWarden a lot and give the class some flavour back on top.

MLGProPlayer

Problems with magicka warden:

- Lower DPS than any other class (by a considerable margin); magplar is still easily outparsing them this patch
- Single target ultimate with double requirement is mandatory (guardian accounts for ~15% of the warden's DPS, more than any other ultimate)
- Only 4 abilities that deal damage
- Damage abilities provide no utility, such as buffs or debuffs, only damage

Simple changes I would make in the short term:

- Make the bear a single bar ability; "eternal guardian" is "eternal" in the sense that it doesn't de-spawn when you swap bars (the current morph doesn't do anything, it just spawns the bear for you in case you forget to, which is annoying because it usually does it mid rotation, interrupting what you were doing)
- Increase the damage of Fetcher Infection by a flat amount (right now, this ability barely tickles)
- Increase the damage bonus from Advanced Species to 3% per animal companion ability slotted (from 2%)

In the long term, the warden needs more buffs/debuffs on its offensive abilities. Wardens currently have 4 abilities that deal damage. These abilities do not have any secondary effects (no self buffs, group buffs, or debuffs). They just do damage (and not even a lot of damage). This makes it VERY hard to justify bringing a DPS warden into any group. Not only do they deal less damage than any other class, they also don't provide any group utility, and they primarily deal single target damage.

TheNightflame

to help the dps and tanking side of things (though warden tanks are already viable, they just can be more healer dependant in trials), i think arctic wind can be reworked. neither it's heal nor damage is substantial, so why not make one morph a strong heal like dragonblood or cloak (or half is instant and another 3/4 over time) and another one pure damage with a bit of flavor? maybe a synnergy heal?.

ignoring the reccomendations, the skill is a bit in limbo

kerthas

I main Magden since 9 month now, mostly as a dps pvp in light armor.
And i'm in love with it. Srsly i harldy see any bad point. It got a lot of healing, *** good burst, i have 60k magicka max on my dps build, and 55k on my sustain build. I got a lot of aoe, a lot of survavilbity.

Now the only thing i think is there is no execut skills. I mean every class got on, exept magicka Dragonknight, but does it really need it?
I mean sorcerer got the most powerful broken execut in the game, nb got a good one, templar too and every stam class got an execut with 2h weapon even with dw passiv.

Warden magicka got his bear for it, but come on exept in dual he is useless, not dealing enough dmg, not focusing the same person then you, slow af, and not tanky enough, and he is using 2 ultimate slot, that a lot of sacrifice for nothing.

So yeah, my point is give to the magicka warden a good execut skill.

Badger_Dan_Man

I play a Stamina Warden in Cyrodiil and a Magicka Warden PvE DPS, from day one of Morrowind. Wardens are my favorite class to play. I find it very fun in PvP in group play. A class stun/knockback CC would be nice there, especially for 1v1 situations where dizzying swing/wrecking blow cannot be landed against good players. Permafrost is more effective for group situations.

For trials, Magicka Wardens are a joke because of the low DPS and the lack of passives useful for group play. A multitude of solutions to the low DPS have been brought up for months now, here and elsewhere. AoE damage is actually pretty good if things line up in space with Deep Fissure, but larger DoTs and a non-ultimate execute would be a start. The bear is pretty much useless with the double-slot requirement, the non-intuitive decisions it makes, and pet-prohibitive mechanics in several trials. I've given up on trying to run Mag Warden in trials, and just play my comparatively boring mag sorc instead. At least I can use the Mag Warden in dungeons and VMA.

erlewine

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

so many words and yet Warden tanks are not even used anywhere remotely as often as DKs. Could you be wrong, or everyone else?

Most of what you said was just silly. If you really believe Wardens self sustain or self heal better than DKs, I'm guessing you haven't even looked at their ability list, or have never tanked anything hard enough to push yourself to that limit. Not to mention it's simply a statistical fact that DK sustain is vastly superior. You don't need to give anyone your opinion, you can just do the math yourself. Yes, it's well established that any class can tank normal trials and other easy content. Most of it can be soloed. Yet, when we look at the absolute hardest content in the game, Wardens are sometimes represented on the leaderboards at under one percent. Not a typo. Less than one percent of the characters in the top 200 of most newer trials are Wardens.

The worst enemy of the Warden class, is other Wardens. It utterly blows my mind how people will come here and see overwhelming proof that Wardens are vastly, vastly underrepresented and barely even exist endgame. Yet they decide to work against their own interests by commenting on things that they aren't familiar with. What arrogance it must take to think that all the top players in the game are wrong and just don't know how to play Warden properly. If only you could get in vAS+2 on your MagDen, you'd show em all.

Part of it is probably that most Wardens are just alts, so they don't really care about the actual longterm health of the class. They just know they can totally solo world bosses and clear normal trials so they've gotta go after the end game raiders who are trying to achieve class balance. Maybe just lay off a bit so we can get Warden bumped to like, 5% of raiders?

Maura_Neysa

erlewine wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

so many words and yet Warden tanks are not even used anywhere remotely as often as DKs. Could you be wrong, or everyone else?

Because of Engulfing and the fact that the MagDK have been utterly useless in PvE.
Also Paygate.
So many people fail tanking on Wardens because they try to play them like a DK. For example anyone who thinks there sustain is worse is just crap and managing the Warden and is freaked out because they cant spam cast a skill to get there resource back up.

Most of what you said was just silly. If you really believe Wardens self sustain or self heal better than DKs, I'm guessing you haven't even looked at their ability list, or have never tanked anything hard enough to push yourself to that limit. Not to mention it's simply a statistical fact that DK sustain is vastly superior. You don't need to give anyone your opinion, you can just do the math yourself.

Okay lets do just that...
DK
Mountain Blessing 3 Ulti every 6 sec (1 Ulti/2seconds)
Battler Roar 46 stat per Ulti point
Helping Hands 850 stam per cast
War Horn every 80 seconds (Estimate have a better number?)
46*250=11500. 11500/80 seconds = 143 resources per second
990 stam per Igneous, cast Igneous every 6 seconds for ulti = 165
165+143 = 308 stamina per second
(want to count the mag/heal from Battler Roar? 143 mag+143 heal + 248stam = 534 resources/sec total)
Warden
Savage Beast 4 Ulti every 8 seconds (1Ulti/2 sec)
Netch 4029 stamina over 27 seconds = 149 per second
Nature's Gift 250 per second
Forest ever 28 seconds (same Ulti gen estimation as War Horn) 26931 heal per 28 seconds = 962heals/sec
250+149 = 399 stamia per second
(Want to count all resource gen? 962heal/sec+399stam/sec = 1361 resources/sec)

So mathematically Wardens have slightly better sustain as Main tank, and significantly better sustain solo tanking aka Off-Tanking Ozara. Oh also note how much easier that is to maintain. 2 buffs vs every 6 second cast.

Yes, it's well established that any class can tank normal trials and other easy content. Most of it can be soloed. Yet, when we look at the absolute hardest content in the game, Wardens are sometimes represented on the leaderboards at under one percent. Not a typo. Less than one percent of the characters in the top 200 of most newer trials are Wardens.

Thats because StamDKs are relevent with a rediculously easy rotation. Where as StamDen are good in the right hands but come with an undesirable pet

The worst enemy of the Warden class, is other Wardens. It utterly blows my mind how people will come here and see overwhelming proof that Wardens are vastly, vastly underrepresented and barely even exist endgame. Yet they decide to work against their own interests by commenting on things that they aren't familiar with. What arrogance it must take to think that all the top players in the game are wrong and just don't know how to play Warden properly. If only you could get in vAS+2 on your MagDen, you'd show em all.

Part of it is probably that most Wardens are just alts, so they don't really care about the actual longterm health of the class. They just know they can totally solo world bosses and clear normal trials so they've gotta go after the end game raiders who are trying to achieve class balance. Maybe just lay off a bit so we can get Warden bumped to like, 5% of raiders?

Loifa vMoL HM Warden tank
https://youtu.be/2Kx0GYrwBCo

Me on mine, sorry Xbox stopped letting us upload to Youtube so its 9 months old
https://youtu.be/nnhYhY9-TpA

wishlist14

I am keeping it simple. Please fix wardens so our dps in pve is in par with other classes. Also while I'm here I would like to give Zos a major game changing challenge: come up with a way to keep pvp separate to pve when balancing classes. I'm thinking that when you go into pvp all your skills change over to just pvp skills then there is no way of players exploiting mechanics in pvp that are not exploitable in pve but which are necessary in pve setting. You would be a world first and would make a lot of gamers extremely happy not to mention all the new members you would get. Every rpgmmo I've played has this major problem. I'm not going off topic...this is the main reason you are finding it so difficult to balance your classes and most of the reason players are getting upset and frustrated.

Camdan8504

I've played Warden since it released and I actually enjoy the class; however, there are a few problems I've wanted addressed for awhile. I play support, all the time, whether that's in PvP or PvE...I hate DPS; I'm unique, got it. On to my "pain points".

1. Enchanted Growth's Minor Intellect/Minor Endurance buff is weaker than Luminous Shards and could be brought up to the same level by increasing the buff from 10% to 15%. It still isn't an instant recovery of the resource, but it would provide the same amount of recovery over a period of time.

2. Crystallized Slab is fairly useful; however, it doesn't really help in groups. Instead of reflecting the projectile back to the attacker, could the skill instead be granted to up to 6 group members within 20 meters? This would be much more interesting and provide another useful support ability that would be useful in PvE or PvP.

erlewine

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Because of Engulfing and the fact that the MagDK have been utterly useless in PvE.
Also Paygate.

So if only DKs didnt have an ability that they do have, Wardens would be as good? But they do have it. Thanks, I guess.

Paygate argument almost sounds logical until you realize that vHOF requires Morrowind and last patch on PC EU, there was exactly One Warden in the top 100 Leaderboards. One. Of the 290 on PC NA currently, there is 8 Wardens.

The problem (well, one of them anyway) with your sustain theory is that you are only counting Stamina. The main advantage DKs have in the sustain department is that they can convert Magicka to Stamina passively (which also gives damage shield to the group, as well as Minor buff) and War Horn gives back both Stam and Magicka. With Minor Heroism and Akaviri Dragonguard set, you can War Horn around every 55 seconds, 70 without Dragonguard. You also completely left out the COmbusion passive, which gives even more free Magicka. You can also cast Igneous more than once every 6 seconds. And you are using Warden healer ult in your theory, therefore now your raid group loses a war horn, grats. You also lose Engulfing Flames, which is a MASSIVE buff. And Minor Savagery. And now you've got a tank who' needs more Healer attention, since you're losing Embers/Dragon Blood healing.

You're also counting Natures Gift as giving 250 Stamina every second, which is humorous. Gift only works if you're healing other people, not yourself, and it gives back the resource that is lower at the moment. You're assuming your Magicka will always be higher than Stamina. Plus you've gotta be healing the group to proc it. And it has to be with a Green Balance ability, so can't cheese it with Altar. Also in your theory you are apparently activating Netch every 8 seconds to proc the Ult Passive. I like how your best cast scenario still performs considerably worse than DK.

All so you can end up with worse Sustain tank. I can think of like 5 more things you left out, but I think you get the picture. Sounds like a great idea for top tier groups already trying to defeat a boss that will take potentially weeks, might as well go ahead and just make it harder on everyone! Maybe you really aren't smarter than 99% of competitive endgame leaderboard groups, and there really is a problem.

erlewine

double

Maura_Neysa

erlewine wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Because of Engulfing and the fact that the MagDK have been utterly useless in PvE.
Also Paygate.

So if only DKs didnt have an ability that they do have, Wardens would be as good? But they do have it. Thanks, I guess.

No its if only MagDK werent crap, which I hear isn't true as of Summerset.

Paygate argument almost sounds logical until you realize that vHOF requires Morrowind and last patch on PC EU, there was exactly One Warden in the top 100 Leaderboards. One. Of the 290 on PC NA currently, there is 8 Wardens.

Except you have to learn how to Warden tank which is still paygate. AND most of the popular Build publishers keep trying to apply DK builds to Wardens. I referenced Loifa's video because IMO he is one of the ones playing a Warden tank as a Warden and not a DK

The problem (well, one of them anyway) with your sustain theory is that you are only counting Stamina. The main advantage DKs have in the sustain department is that they can convert Magicka to Stamina passively (which also gives damage shield to the group, as well as Minor buff) and War Horn gives back both Stam and Magicka.

I listed both numbers. Looking a stamina only Warden does marginally better, Yes it requires Leeching to go to a group member, but that will happen 100% of the time when you cast it at full health. So most of of the time it will be on someone else and procing Nature's Gift. Yes it gives Magicka or Stamina, but when my stamina is high I dont care about it, and when my stamina is low its going where it needs to. And because the Netch restores every 0.5sec then even when I'm out of stamina I can still block.
By the way the measily 2k Shield is next to nothing, especially when compared with 5k resistances the Warden can give

With Minor Heroism and Akaviri Dragonguard set, you can War Horn around every 55 seconds, 70 without Dragonguard.

Okay, will use 55 second War Horns
46*250=11500. 11500/55 seconds = 209 resources per second
990 stam per Igneous, cast Igneous every 6 seconds for ulti = 165
165+209 = 374 stamina per second
(want to count the mag/heal from Battler Roar? 209 mag+ 209 heal + 374 stam = 792 resources/sec total)
Warden
Savage Beast 4 Ulti every 8 seconds (1Ulti/2 sec)
Netch 4029 stamina over 27 seconds = 149 per second
Nature's Gift 250 per second
Forest every 20 seconds (same Ulti gen estimation as War Horn) 26931 heal per 20 seconds = 1346 heals/sec
250+149 = 399 stamia per second
(Want to count all resource gen? 1346 heal/sec+399stam/sec = 1745 resources/sec)

Since you seem to miss this last time..
That's
DK - 374 Stam/sec vs Warden - 399 Stam/sec
or
DK - 792 Resources/sec vs Warden - 1745 resources/sec
Don't forget this is your Ulti gen estimate in Dragon Gaurd, not Ebon and Alkosh.

Okay lets up that Igneous cast to every 4 seconds. 990/4sec=247, 247+209=456 stam/sec
DK 456 Stam/sec vs Warden 399 Stam/sec
Hey if you cast Igneous every 4 seconds you can out stam regen, but wait.... you need a magic regen of 2024.5 to support an every 4second cast.
4050mag / 4sec cast = 1012mag/sec, regen ticks every 2 seconds, 2024 magicka regen

You also completely left out the COmbusion passive, which gives even more free Magicka. You can also cast Igneous more than once every 6 seconds.

I did leave out Combustion Passive, and I also left out the Warden Advanced Species Passive which also gives you even more free Magicka

And you are using Warden healer ult in your theory, therefore now your raid group loses a war horn, grats. You also lose Engulfing Flames, which is a MASSIVE buff. And Minor Savagery. And now you've got a tank who' needs more Healer attention, since you're losing Embers/Dragon Blood healing.

Yes Forest Ulti when being purely selfish, but that higher stamina restore happens no matter what Ulti either class runs.
Engulfing, covered this, only matters because MagDK have been crap for the last year. Group buff also wouldn't matter with a MagDK, and only matters because people believe Minor Brutality (NB give Minor Savagery not DKs) is better than Minor Toughness. Even though only Stam care at all about Minor Brutality anyway.
Ask any halfway decent healer who needs more of the healers attention, DK or Warden LMFAO. Not only do Wardens need less attention, but they can actually easy be the Healer and the Tank in a 4 man run.

You're also counting Natures Gift as giving 250 Stamina every second, which is humorous. Gift only works if you're healing other people, not yourself, and it gives back the resource that is lower at the moment. You're assuming your Magicka will always be higher than Stamina. Plus you've gotta be healing the group to proc it. And it has to be with a Green Balance ability, so can't cheese it with Altar. Also in your theory you are apparently activating Netch every 8 seconds to proc the Ult Passive. I like how your best cast scenario still performs considerably worse than DK.

Nature's Gift does give either, and honestly its usually Magicka, because my Stamina really doesn't go low often. It takes 6 Axes before I even start needing Shards. However it works far better giving me which ever resource I need more, stamina when I'm in trouble, magicka most of the time. And I only need to re-cast every 10 seconds.
Healing the group is easy to Proc, Leeching is usually on someone else, its a smart heal, and I have 35-40k health., I need to be under half health before Leeching goes to me.
No I run to animal companion skills on both bars, Deceptive Predator and the Netch. I was also assuming the DK was perfectly timing their Igneous shield every 6 seconds for the same thing.
I do like how even switching to your best case scenario of 50 second War Horns and 4 second Igneous Shields, was what it took to bring the DK to what the Warden can do by just maintaining a 10 second skill and at 27 second skill. That's also in full group play, and not, during crap-hit-the-fan, Healer(s) are dead, Off-Tanking, I have to play full tank, not buff machine play style.

All so you can end up with worse Sustain tank. I can think of like 5 more things you left out, but I think you get the picture. Sounds like a great idea for top tier groups already trying to defeat a boss that will take potentially weeks, might as well go ahead and just make it harder on everyone! Maybe you really aren't smarter than 99% of competitive endgame leaderboard groups, and there really is a problem.

DK - 374 Stam/sec vs Warden - 399 Stam/sec or DK - 792 Resources/sec vs Warden - 1745 resources/sec
Seems like while learning a new trial a more self reliant tank is a valuable thing. I certainly know that while I'm in a run with an unfamiliar/un-tested Healer, I definitely prefer to be on my Warden. Plus I know of at least one Leader Board tank who has gone back to the Warden. Instead of questioning my intelligence, especially when I'm posting the math, maybe trying making your own build instead of just following the crowd. Hell I'm still trying to make a viable Frost Mage build, no luck yet. Still not going to take yours or anyone else's word that its impossible until I've exhausted every idea.

erlewine

MagDKs being bad is crucial to the endgame meta, you can't just brush that aside.

Removing health from your resource return numbers, since health isn't what people mean when they say "resource sustain," you end up with 583 vs. Warden's 399. So you've pretty much done the work for me. So you agree DKs have better sustain and group buffs. As for healing, DKs can spam Burning Embers for ~3k heal every cast for only 1000 mana, or Dragon Blood to instantly heal 33% of missing health. Vastly superior to the Warden options, especially in raids.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Instead of questioning my intelligence, especially when I'm posting the math, maybe trying making your own build instead of just following the crowd.

Nice assumption, but I'm actually one of a handful of people dumb enough to have vAS+2 speedrun on MagDen, so it doesn't really fit. I'd be the first to admit that there is absolutely no reason to bring a Warden over another class in endgame raids. And all the data backs me up, including your own numbers, and the leaderboard results.