[Class Rep] Warden Feedback Thread

ESO_Nightingale

Nerouyn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Tell that to other people

This ain't a private conversation. We're on the interwebz.

I am telling!

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Magden is objectively worse than the other classes.

Categorically untrue. I've been playing my mag sorc and warden a lot lately. The sorc with a lot more skill points and all passives. My warden with not many, many of those in crafting, and very few passives.

They're comparable and if anything my warden is slightly more kick arse.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

They simply can't reach the same DPS numbers. They're closer than they were in the past, but still not there.

Let me guess - you're talking about one of those number crunching bunnies whacking off on their dummy in the privacy of their home?

If that's what they're or you're into I won't judge. Truly. That's between you all and the dummy.

But dummy whacking is fundamentally artificial. In both PvE and PvP opponents move. You know what wardens are really good at? Hindering movement.

With the amount of chills and immobilizations I dish out, most opponents have little to no freedom of movement. That means I rarely I have to waste time and magicka healing myself, i.e. that's more time and magicka for damage. It also means I can maximise the potential of our heavy hitting Deep Fissure by typically hitting everything with it.

i.e. warden's crowd control elements in actual gameplay translate into more damage. You'll never see that reflected in dummy statistics.

pretty sure it's the tank's job to stop movement. not the DPS's. if it were really the case that magden was better than we think, don't you think we would see magdens in trials and dungeons? prove us wrong.

Celoyden

"Parsing is useless because my character can clear a delve."

zTrok

Nerouyn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

They aren't as good as other classes in PvE.

I'll say it again.

In PvE they're not worse than other classes in terms of damage.

Admittedly I've mostly just been playing just sorc other than warden recently, but warden is if anything slightly better / easier. And my sorc has points in his passives. My warden doesn't other than for a few of the light armor ones.

They are just worse than other classes in terms of lack of DPS options.

Highest a magden can hit as of Wrathstone is 52k solo. In objective terms Magden hits the least of any magicka spec.

cpuScientist

I know StamDen is doing well and magDen is what really needs the buffs. And everything is being said for that. But the bear ultimate for both Stam and mag needs a rework.

Either
1. Let it be single barrable.
2. Let each bar have a different ultimate for the bear one single Target one AOE.
3. Give the Bear the incap treatment, give it more effects when cast later. So the bear has a 120-200 ultimate cost roar centered at Target that does high AOE damage and dots.

Something so that in alot of the places that a single target Only Ultimate is not useful we have options. Wether it be from another ulti or whatever.

cpuScientist

The ice magDen remake is wanted and it should happen, but meanwhile Fletcher infection is extremely boring and a good place to shore up some DPS for magDen get rid of the every other cast mechanic and make it like poison injection. Of course buffing the initial damage so that in the grand scope of things it's equivalent to a nice 25% damage buff or so.

And one precious QOL change could be Trellis and it's morphs let it ALWAYS go on you and another or others. It is annoying to have to watch the ground all the time.

Nerouyn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

pretty sure it's the tank's job to stop movement. not the DPS's. if it were really the case that magden was better than we think, don't you think we would see magdens in trials and dungeons? prove us wrong.

ROFL.

Don't get me started on "jobs" in this game.

Pretty sure it's the healer's job to heal. Nope. Like it's right there in their name. Not in this game. They primarily DPS. Buffing is their next biggest priority. Class and CP-based self auto healing shoulders much of the healing load.

Resurrecting folk. That's totally a healer's job. Templars - who were originally the healing focused class - even have a passive which boosts it. Not in this game. That job belongs to DPS.

Crowd control has never been a tank's job in any MMO I've played. There are either specialised classes for it or it's something everyone can do.

Sorcerer was originally the ranged DPS focused class. They were not great tanks originally and Encase was entirely a crowd control ability.

There. Proved you wrong.

Regardless it doesn't matter. My point stands unchallenged.

Whacking a dummy doesn't take into account warden's effectively having a higher accuracy rate courtesy of additional crowd control. It just doesn't and you have even't tried to deny it.

Why don't you see more? That's easy. I've already partly addressed it.

1) They have MUCH less variety in DPS. Only 4 magicka damage abilities which is about half as many as every other class. Less variety = more boring. No-one loves that.

2) What DPS they have includes spamming a single insta target attack. SUPER BORING. Seriously, I never use it or the destruction staff ability Force Shock which it's essentially a clone of. Other than during the tutorial I've only slotted it for one part of the public dungeon - i.e. nominally group - quest in Nchuleftingth.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Heart's_Desire

The part of the quest which throws a lot centurions at you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Dwarven_Centurion

As they are considered elite enemies, Dwarven Centurions are immune to all forms of crowd control effects.

As we've covered, a huge chunk of warden's typical DPS relies on their excellent crowd control. I had to burn them down singly and for the first time actually needed Screaming Cliff Racer. Which was effective. But boring, so I immediately unslotted it again.

There are also other issues I've haven't previously addressed but which would obviously contribute.

The class was released later as part of a paid DLC which the devs "cleverly" rebadged as a "chapter" to avoid subscribers getting that free. On top of that they introduced a new class and unlike every other MMO I've ever played - which is a lot - didn't include a free character slot. To play this new class you had to pay extra for that.

That would have been unappealing to MANY players, especially with ESO's MANY, MANY tedious and time-gated character bound grinds like horse feeding and trait research which take half a year complete. Unless you were particularly keen on nature themed stuff you'd be like "Meh - too much effort."

I'm looking at necromancer with that attitude. Even though ZO seem to have recognized their error of not giving a free character slot with Morrowind and now with crown store gifting it's also effectively possible to buy extra slots with gold, there's still a lot of tedium attached to any new character.

Also a common complaint about wardens and which has been repeated recently as a concern about necromancers is their having been themed for Morrowind. I love the place so it doesn't bother me but I'm not sure it was wise and people have complained.

Netch, fetcherflies and cliff racer are definitely very Morrowind. The netch being a pet and decent buff effect, would always there on screen if you're using it. And fetcherflies and cliff racer make up 50% of warden's damage abilities. I couldn't argue against that criticism.

ESO_Nightingale

Nerouyn wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

pretty sure it's the tank's job to stop movement. not the DPS's. if it were really the case that magden was better than we think, don't you think we would see magdens in trials and dungeons? prove us wrong.

ROFL.

Don't get me started on "jobs" in this game.

Pretty sure it's the healer's job to heal. Nope. Like it's right there in their name. Not in this game. They primarily DPS. Buffing is their next biggest priority. Class and CP-based self auto healing shoulders much of the healing load.

Resurrecting folk. That's totally a healer's job. Templars - who were originally the healing focused class - even have a passive which boosts it. Not in this game. That job belongs to DPS.

Crowd control has never been a tank's job in any MMO I've played. There are either specialised classes for it or it's something everyone can do.

Sorcerer was originally the ranged DPS focused class. They were not great tanks originally and Encase was entirely a crowd control ability.

There. Proved you wrong.

Regardless it doesn't matter. My point stands unchallenged.

Whacking a dummy doesn't take into account warden's effectively having a higher accuracy rate courtesy of additional crowd control. It just doesn't and you have even't tried to deny it.

Why don't you see more? That's easy. I've already partly addressed it.

1) They have MUCH less variety in DPS. Only 4 magicka damage abilities which is about half as many as every other class. Less variety = more boring. No-one loves that.

2) What DPS they have includes spamming a single insta target attack. SUPER BORING. Seriously, I never use it or the destruction staff ability Force Shock which it's essentially a clone of. Other than during the tutorial I've only slotted it for one part of the public dungeon - i.e. nominally group - quest in Nchuleftingth.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Heart's_Desire

The part of the quest which throws a lot centurions at you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Dwarven_Centurion

As they are considered elite enemies, Dwarven Centurions are immune to all forms of crowd control effects.

As we've covered, a huge chunk of warden's typical DPS relies on their excellent crowd control. I had to burn them down singly and for the first time actually needed Screaming Cliff Racer. Which was effective.

I'm going to stop responding to these posts because i can't help you.

Nerouyn

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

I'm going to stop responding to these posts because i can't help you.

[snip]

There are many valid criticisms of the class, all of which you *** on except their supposedly lower raw damage numbers based on artificial dummy whacking which doesn't take into account the beneficial effect of their superior crowd control on damage in actual gameplay.

I wouldn't be upset if wardens got more damage but it wouldn't address the real problems so wouldn't make them any more playable for me. Not in the slightest.

If I can casually solo group content in fairly [snip] light armour, without any class passives and only a few armour passives, I feel confident that their damage doesn't suck. Especially when I play the same content a day earlier / later with another class who does have all his passives, and it's not any easier for him.

[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]

fierackas

Is it April Fools Day already?

ChunkyCat

I’m now full on playing my Stam warden in BGs.

No complaints, just don’t nerf anything.

Lughlongarm

Now that NDA has been lifted, any one knows if we should expect some Warden changes?

Just reviewed the Necromancer and it was great to see how much they learned from many of the mistakes they have made with Warden. Hope they could at least apply some of their new philosophy design to the Warden.
https://www.docdroid.net/GHn5d53/necromancer-skills-and-passives.pdf


1) Animations are tied to class theme and not the expansion theme - Great.

2)Many damage skills to chose from, good amount stamina morphs for damage skills.

3)Stamina morphs are interesting and just the regular "converted to stamina skill" morph.

4)Class ultimates that will secure at least 1 dps and 1 tank/healer Necro in every high end PVE content regardless to its personal DPS performance.

5)Pull skill which is actually flexible and fun

6)Unique new mechanic that does not feel like a mash of existing classes

7)Tank heal that can actually do damage for both stamina and mgicka(apparently it is possible)

8)Pets which are actually function like pets and not attacks and buffs which only tagged and appear as pets

9)Access to q good CC and having execute as a passive.

10)No "dead" passives that I could notice.

11)Passive and skill effects that interact between skill lines(for example the bone shield that reduce cost summons).

12)Ability to activate self synergy(something I always wanted for warden to do with bear)

13) AOE damage skill(frorst damage, slap in the face ) that is not downgrade version of Wall of Elements)

14)Smart damage buffers that impact PVE much more than PVP(one of warden biggest design issues).

15)Passives that can synergize with WW.

ccmedaddy

The only good thing I took away from today is that since Necromancers aren't exactly full fledged frost mages, there's still hope for frost dmg rework for Warden.

ESO_Nightingale

According to my man @Dottzgaming he saw a cost reduction to Falcon's Swiftness. It's not what the skill needed but I'll take it for now. Its still subject to change.

ESO_Nightingale

ccmedaddy wrote: »

The only good thing I took away from today is that since Necromancers aren't exactly full fledged frost mages, there's still hope for frost dmg rework for Warden.

Too bad that Boneyard is seemingly better than winter's revenge. It may deal less dps but a synergy is really good.

SilverIce58

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

The only good thing I took away from today is that since Necromancers aren't exactly full fledged frost mages, there's still hope for frost dmg rework for Warden.

Too bad that Boneyard is seemingly better than winter's revenge. It may deal less dps but a synergy is really good.

Necro seems to be getting two versions of winter's revenge. Impaling spikes anyone?

ccmedaddy

Oh for sure their frost skills are so much cooler than ours lol. But we still have the frost dmg passive which means wardens are still the official frost mage of ESO as far as I'm concerned lol.

Also, Wardens will be the only class with minor berserk next patch. Small victories \o/

TeIvanni

My Biggest Concern for Magicka Warden:

Hardest rotation after Magicka Nightblade.
Lowest DPS of all Magicka Class for raid dps.

Edit:
Stamina Warden seems to be in a pretty good spot though.

ESO_Nightingale

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Oh for sure their frost skills are so much cooler than ours lol. But we still have the frost dmg passive which means wardens are still the official frost mage of ESO as far as I'm concerned lol.

Also, Wardens will be the only class with minor berserk next patch. Small victories \o/

Necromancers are the elementalists.

Maura_Neysa

Been a minute, but I had to respond to this...

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Artic Wind: It's ok for a stun otherwise useless. The healing is junk compared to other skills in game, it's morphs are just as trash. I would prefer this be turned into a single target spamable or a passive damage similar to voltile armor.

THe only useful part to this is the Heal. The Stun is worthless. Just revert the skill, it failed in its current rev

Gripping Shards: this need a secondary effect that only effects NPCs as a actual group CC for PvE. The radial area of effect should be increased by a few meters. 2-3 should be sufficient.

This is actually one of the hardest hitting Class AoE skills, with a rather large raduis. I know people think its boring, but honestly its only flaw is that it last 12 seconds but most people cast it every 8sec anyway, to match Wall.

Deep Fissure & Morphs: This skill is great but I has a few issues. The first one is unless you can see the bugs go off in a mass group it's hard to see if they have actually gone off. By the sound, its very distinctive. Also, just cast it every 3rd skill Another visual cue would be helpful. The second thing that if a NPC or Player is not sitting within Z access of the move they aren't hit by it. Example terrain is not flat or very close to flat the bugs mis. Floating NPS can't be hot by this move. Z hit detection need to be increased by like half a meter or so. THis is just flat out wrong. It actually has a lot of vertical movement. I could Shalks from the Oil Grates in a Keep and Hit the Ram Operators >_< I also wouldn't mind if they gave made the other version of the skill be able to be similar to Scorc Telaport but in this case casting once starts the timer and the second time increased cost but cause it to activate instantly. A second set would cause an been more increased cost. A slight Damage decrease would be acceptable in this case. Just NO, it hits way to hard for that. It needs the counter play of being able to get out of the way

Falcon Swiftness & Morphs: make both buffs last equal amount even if you reduce the overall time of the of the buff. Just kinda weird to me.

They are the same length now. They used to be different durations because Minor Berserk was an 8% buff, and Minor Evasion was a 5% buff. So the added duration was to even them out. I would actually prefer to see them leave BoP the way it is, and revert Deceptive Predator to 14sec with all 3 buffs on cast (including 14sec Expedition) and nothing for slotting it.

Frozen Gate & Morphs: I do not understand the point of this skill for PvP or PvE. It's just useless. It's the person who made daedric mine for scroc was just like "lets make Teleporting mines and makem stun!" I don't really know what to put here instead. Just something else. How about a spamable something for damage?

Frozen Device is a better version of Chains. Pulls enemies in, Roots them (went it works right) and applies MAJOR Maim. Don't touch it. Frozen Retreat could use a rework. Why would an alley want to retreat to you, when you are just going to pull the enemy right with them

ESO_Nightingale

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Frozen Device is a better version of Chains. Pulls enemies in, Roots them (went it works right) and applies MAJOR Maim. Don't touch it. Frozen Retreat could use a rework. Why would an alley want to retreat to you, when you are just going to pull the enemy right with them

not only that, but you're gonna pull them into a huge enemy cluster too. current retreat is a cool idea. but doesn't work in practice.

GrumpyDuckling

Please please please advocate for skins for the Warden's Animal Companion skill line.

It just feels so out of place that a Bosmer Warden in Valenwood calls upon a Cliff Racer, Shalk, and a Netch for support -- those creatures don't even exist there. A Wasp/Hawk/Eagle, Thunderbug/Hoarvor, and something like a Spriggan would make more sense because those are creatures that actually exist in the region.

Has there been any discussion about making Warden's Animal Companion skills line more than just a Morrowind-themed skill line? Sure, Warden happened to launch during the Morrowind chapter, but I don't see that as a reason for tying the two together. Necromancer doesn't appear to have any Elsweyr-themed skills.

ESO_Nightingale

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Please please please advocate for skins for the Warden's Animal Companion skill line.

It just feels so out of place that a Bosmer Warden in Valenwood calls upon a Cliff Racer, Shalk, and a Netch for support -- those creatures don't even exist there. A Wasp/Hawk/Eagle, Thunderbug/Hoarvor, and something like a Spriggan would make more sense because those are creatures that actually exist in the region.

Has there been any discussion about making Warden's Animal Companion skills line more than just a Morrowind-themed skill line? Sure, Warden happened to launch during the Morrowind chapter, but I don't see that as a reason for tying the two together. Necromancer doesn't appear to have any Elsweyr-themed skills.

Yes there has been.

Jaxaxo

About pvp, the only thing i wish is short snare removal/immunity on falcon, like there is on dks wings (imo each class should have sth like that in their toolkit)

ESO_Nightingale

Jaxaxo wrote: »

About pvp, the only thing i wish is short snare removal/immunity on falcon, like there is on dks wings (imo each class should have sth like that in their toolkit)

Yes. They need to make Falcon's useful to cast. NOT REDUCE THE COST! The problem is having to cast the ability every 4 seconds. It would still have that issue if it was free. Its just not worth casting in a combat scenario

Dubsize

Fix the ugly skills and make it more racial themed. A nord with a netchcow? Cmons thats ridicules.

Go away from destruction and give it a druid based skill tree. Dont know why its an icemage healing alien summoner.

U rly should have focused on the ES titles before implementing or creating classes that makes no sense at all or have some lore in the previous titles.

But thats just me, and all the others not touching this game in case of this.

Starlight_Knight

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Please please please advocate for skins for the Warden's Animal Companion skill line.

It just feels so out of place that a Bosmer Warden in Valenwood calls upon a Cliff Racer, Shalk, and a Netch for support -- those creatures don't even exist there. A Wasp/Hawk/Eagle, Thunderbug/Hoarvor, and something like a Spriggan would make more sense because those are creatures that actually exist in the region.

Has there been any discussion about making Warden's Animal Companion skills line more than just a Morrowind-themed skill line? Sure, Warden happened to launch during the Morrowind chapter, but I don't see that as a reason for tying the two together. Necromancer doesn't appear to have any Elsweyr-themed skills.

There have been loads of posts about giving pet skins to us - ZOS looked like they were even heading that way when the warden released by giving us that "Specials" tab to store our grey warden bear pet skin.

pet skins are in dire need. even if they were crown store i don't think anyone would care, just lets have them so we can make the characters we want.

Luckylancer

You cant sub assault ram operators from oil are. Only visual effect appears and it dont deal damage.

BoP can use 4 sec snare removal or immunity.

If bear deal phyc or mag damage (which ever is higher like templar burning spear passive) that would be great. Small and easy change.

ESO_Nightingale

Luckylancer wrote: »

If bear deal phyc or mag damage (which ever is higher like templar burning spear passive) that would be great. Small and easy change.

I think that the wild guardian morph should do this along with having the increased damage. Eternal Guardian could be renamed into Polar Guardian and instead scale off frost damage or disease damage based on higher stats. so you choose more but basic damage or damage that applies effects to enemies. Eternal guardian isn't a really helpful morph anymore. because it no longer dies in like half of all content. And I know my frost community wants a polar bear (if not just a skin) but I think another good morph could be to reduce bear's cast time from 2.5 seconds to 1 second on eternal guardian. because its more helpful in PvP. I'd personally just scrap the "Eternal" thing altogether though.

Tryxus

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Been a minute, but I had to respond to this...

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

Artic Wind: It's ok for a stun otherwise useless. The healing is junk compared to other skills in game, it's morphs are just as trash. I would prefer this be turned into a single target spamable or a passive damage similar to voltile armor.

THe only useful part to this is the Heal. The Stun is worthless. Just revert the skill, it failed in its current rev

I have to disagree: having a stun is important considering the Frost Staff doesn't have one. The problem is that the devs were lazy and simply added the stun to a tank heal instead of reworking the Arctic Blast morph into something more offensive like for example a blast of Ice that stuns and does damage (+ optional splash damage).

If ZOS could apply that design to every Winter's Embrace skill (1 tank morph vs 1 offensive/support morph) it would make the Warden in general a lot more rewarding and fun to play. It's alrdy there with Gripping Shards/Winter's Revenge (tho these skill do need a bit of an update), they just need to apply it to the other skills as well

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Frozen Device is a better version of Chains. Pulls enemies in, Roots them (went it works right) and applies MAJOR Maim. Don't touch it. Frozen Retreat could use a rework. Why would an alley want to retreat to you, when you are just going to pull the enemy right with them

not only that, but you're gonna pull them into a huge enemy cluster too. current retreat is a cool idea. but doesn't work in practice.

The only time I used this skill was for an obstacle course in someone's home. The current synergy is bad design and somewhat gimmicky.

If this morph is gonna have a synergy, I think the pull mechanic should be removed from this morph (only Device morph pulls) and the synergy itself should be changed into something more useful: purge, resource return, AoE debuff, etc,...

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

If bear deal phyc or mag damage (which ever is higher like templar burning spear passive) that would be great. Small and easy change.

I think that the wild guardian morph should do this along with having the increased damage. Eternal Guardian could be renamed into Polar Guardian and instead scale off frost damage or disease damage based on higher stats. so you choose more but basic damage or damage that applies effects to enemies. Eternal guardian isn't a really helpful morph anymore. because it no longer dies in like half of all content. And I know my frost community wants a polar bear (if not just a skin) but I think another good morph could be to reduce bear's cast time from 2.5 seconds to 1 second on eternal guardian. because its more helpful in PvP. I'd personally just scrap the "Eternal" thing altogether though.

Eternal Guardian -> Berserking Guardian: instead of respawning, the execute threshold of the Bear is raised to 50%

Wild Guardian is fine the way it is now

ESO_Nightingale

Tryxus wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

If bear deal phyc or mag damage (which ever is higher like templar burning spear passive) that would be great. Small and easy change.

I think that the wild guardian morph should do this along with having the increased damage. Eternal Guardian could be renamed into Polar Guardian and instead scale off frost damage or disease damage based on higher stats. so you choose more but basic damage or damage that applies effects to enemies. Eternal guardian isn't a really helpful morph anymore. because it no longer dies in like half of all content. And I know my frost community wants a polar bear (if not just a skin) but I think another good morph could be to reduce bear's cast time from 2.5 seconds to 1 second on eternal guardian. because its more helpful in PvP. I'd personally just scrap the "Eternal" thing altogether though.

Eternal Guardian -> Berserking Guardian: instead of respawning, the execute threshold of the Bear is raised to 50%

Wild Guardian is fine the way it is now

yeah was just presenting fun ideas. although i think if warden was to get anything else execute related, it should be on another skill. not bear.