I propose that Vampirism should have a high upkeep cost and should be reworked in its entirety.

chaserstorm16909

Knowledge wrote: »

chaserstorm16909 wrote: »

All my characters are vampires and I don't completely disagree with the op. But if you're going to implement the upkeep he is suggesting, it needs to be made more worth our while. Otherwise, there won't be any vampires left.

Sure, maybe take away the detriments and make keeping vampirism an ordeal. This is just a loose example but if you don't feed for long enough maybe you just lose the benefits all together and have to go through a grindy feeding session of maybe 100+ monsters.

Your suggestions are overkill.

Kodrac

Just require slotting a vamp skill to make use the passives. There. Now the regen isn't free and we didn't have to reinvent the wheel.

starkerealm

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

And you want to make it worse by nerfing vamps. gj.

Vampires are overpowered and pay no real penalty.

They aren't overpowered at all. Who uses the abilities?

That passives are too attractive against the downsides is all, post morrowind everyone is greedy for regen.

Vamp abilities need a buff to make them great again, ut fired slot a skill to get the passive is my view. Look like Vamp, be a vamp, do vamp stuff get vamp passives.

Run around hidden by a skin, with no real penalty bar DBoS and it means all the muggles run it.

BUT I can see the need for a weak food to hide vamp.for RP guys as per the threads. I'm thinking PvP only.

I believe the passives are what makes it overpowered.

To be honest the bulk of people run it for Regen. Especially since Morrowind.

Undeath isn't actually as good as it seems with the fire damage.. So really people are selling out their RP soul for 10% regen.

But I state my view again, running vamp should be more than a choice about regen for meta specs. Look like a vamp, and do vamp stuff to get vamp passives I can support. Making the skills decent again, would help. There are however way bigger balance items needing attention first.

It's also quite ridiculous that a Templar has no PVP mobility and must take Mist Form. Something like that shouldn't be mandatory at all. Give Fighter's guild a movement skill, give something else a movement skill, don't force people to be Vampires to be competitive. I think the developers have approached Vampirism wrongly by assuming we'd all want to be one indirectly.

@Knowledge, what are you talking about? The Templar has an in class gap closer.

Thunderknuckles

I've been playing a vampire for months and months in both PvE and PvP and, quite honestly, I just don't see the alleged advantage they have over non-vampires. With the exception of the fast sneak speed I have noticed 0 superior performance from my vampire over my non-undead characters. And I mean 0.

Knowledge

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

And you want to make it worse by nerfing vamps. gj.

Vampires are overpowered and pay no real penalty.

They aren't overpowered at all. Who uses the abilities?

That passives are too attractive against the downsides is all, post morrowind everyone is greedy for regen.

Vamp abilities need a buff to make them great again, ut fired slot a skill to get the passive is my view. Look like Vamp, be a vamp, do vamp stuff get vamp passives.

Run around hidden by a skin, with no real penalty bar DBoS and it means all the muggles run it.

BUT I can see the need for a weak food to hide vamp.for RP guys as per the threads. I'm thinking PvP only.

I believe the passives are what makes it overpowered.

To be honest the bulk of people run it for Regen. Especially since Morrowind.

Undeath isn't actually as good as it seems with the fire damage.. So really people are selling out their RP soul for 10% regen.

But I state my view again, running vamp should be more than a choice about regen for meta specs. Look like a vamp, and do vamp stuff to get vamp passives I can support. Making the skills decent again, would help. There are however way bigger balance items needing attention first.

It's also quite ridiculous that a Templar has no PVP mobility and must take Mist Form. Something like that shouldn't be mandatory at all. Give Fighter's guild a movement skill, give something else a movement skill, don't force people to be Vampires to be competitive. I think the developers have approached Vampirism wrongly by assuming we'd all want to be one indirectly.

@Knowledge, what are you talking about? The Templar has an in class gap closer.

I doubt a healer seeking to disengaged wants to close the gap with his enemy.

Knowledge

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

I've been playing a vampire for months and months in both PvE and PvP and, quite honestly, I just don't see the alleged advantage they have over non-vampires. With the exception of the fast sneak speed I have noticed 0 superior performance from my vampire over my non-undead characters. And I mean 0.

10% resource regeneration, Undeath, Sneak

Thunderknuckles

Knowledge wrote: »

Thunderknuckles wrote: »

I've been playing a vampire for months and months in both PvE and PvP and, quite honestly, I just don't see the alleged advantage they have over non-vampires. With the exception of the fast sneak speed I have noticed 0 superior performance from my vampire over my non-undead characters. And I mean 0.

10% resource regeneration, Undeath, Sneak

Oh I know, but I really do not see an overperformance with this. In PvP, for example, I die as fast as anyone else. Admittedly I play a stamblade, so it's not hard to die. Still, even with those mild bonuses I'm not causing mayhem everywhere I go. It just really isn't noticeable.

In fact, the huge group of people I play with will, if they want to do it, only choose vampire for no other reason than the fast sneak. It is otherwise undesirable to them. Meaning, those slight bonuses aren't making for power house characters.

Darrett

I agree with the concept that they should rework vampires (and werewolves) entirely. I think both represent a huge missed opportunity.

I'd like to see them turned into something resembling what vampires and werewolves actually are supposed to be in TES games; extremely powerful, with a few heavy drawbacks, and potentially hunted by everyone.

It should be an actual trade-off, you're a powerful character that has to watch your back everywhere, with some large penalties if you die, meaning discovery is something you don't want. As it stands, you've got a ridiculous amount of people who are clearly vampires wandering around that are at no additional risk. Apply a discovery system, an always-on, one-directional PvP flag if discovered, and an ongoing bounty system.

EldritchPenguin

Knowledge wrote: »

chaserstorm16909 wrote: »

All my characters are vampires and I don't completely disagree with the op. But if you're going to implement the upkeep he is suggesting, it needs to be made more worth our while. Otherwise, there won't be any vampires left.

Sure, maybe take away the detriments and make keeping vampirism an ordeal. This is just a loose example but if you don't feed for long enough maybe you just lose the benefits all together and have to go through a grindy feeding session of maybe 100+ monsters.

I think the main problem with the proposed drawbacks you've been talking about is that you're neglecting an important fact: Nothing is more important to a gamer than their time. Thus, it's a really bad move to either restrict the time in which a player can access their character (which sun damage would accomplish) or saddle them with a ton of repetitive, meaningless errands (which feeding requirements would accomplish).

Players already sacrifice more than enough time for power by grinding for gear. Adding a grind to maintain your power would be needlessly frustrating.

I think that straight-up nerfing vampirism and making it a massive nuisance are both bad decisions. If we want people to choose whether or not they want to be vampires and make it so that the only people playing vampires are the ones who genuinely want to, then something bigger needs to happen.

Here's what I'd do.

• Drain Essence and Bat Swarm need to be buffed so that they are competitive for skill slots in PvE and PvP (For example: Drain Essence needs to be viable as a spammable attack and Bat Swarm needs to be able to compete for a slot with the Destro ult).
• Make the increased regen require a vampire ability to be slotted (less of a hassle if the abilities are actually worth using in the first place).
• Add a debuff to healing received that increases by stage and doesn't apply to vampire abilities.

If we want to tackle the issue of the vampire "epidemic" (the existence of which is debatable, but for the sake of argument), then we should make being a vampire something that makes players change their build on a much deeper level. With the changes I proposed above, vampires are given powerful abilities that have comparable or potentially greater benefits than abilities accessible through other skill lines, but with meaningful enough tradeoffs to deter some people from wanting to use the skill line without wasting their time with feeding quotas or limiting the times when their characters are playable.

starkerealm

Knowledge wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

And you want to make it worse by nerfing vamps. gj.

Vampires are overpowered and pay no real penalty.

They aren't overpowered at all. Who uses the abilities?

That passives are too attractive against the downsides is all, post morrowind everyone is greedy for regen.

Vamp abilities need a buff to make them great again, ut fired slot a skill to get the passive is my view. Look like Vamp, be a vamp, do vamp stuff get vamp passives.

Run around hidden by a skin, with no real penalty bar DBoS and it means all the muggles run it.

BUT I can see the need for a weak food to hide vamp.for RP guys as per the threads. I'm thinking PvP only.

I believe the passives are what makes it overpowered.

To be honest the bulk of people run it for Regen. Especially since Morrowind.

Undeath isn't actually as good as it seems with the fire damage.. So really people are selling out their RP soul for 10% regen.

But I state my view again, running vamp should be more than a choice about regen for meta specs. Look like a vamp, and do vamp stuff to get vamp passives I can support. Making the skills decent again, would help. There are however way bigger balance items needing attention first.

It's also quite ridiculous that a Templar has no PVP mobility and must take Mist Form. Something like that shouldn't be mandatory at all. Give Fighter's guild a movement skill, give something else a movement skill, don't force people to be Vampires to be competitive. I think the developers have approached Vampirism wrongly by assuming we'd all want to be one indirectly.

@Knowledge, what are you talking about? The Templar has an in class gap closer.

I doubt a healer seeking to disengaged wants to close the gap with his enemy.

If you're running a fragile healbot in Cyrodiil, and you don't have rapids slotted... what are you doing?

Knowledge

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

And you want to make it worse by nerfing vamps. gj.

Vampires are overpowered and pay no real penalty.

They aren't overpowered at all. Who uses the abilities?

That passives are too attractive against the downsides is all, post morrowind everyone is greedy for regen.

Vamp abilities need a buff to make them great again, ut fired slot a skill to get the passive is my view. Look like Vamp, be a vamp, do vamp stuff get vamp passives.

Run around hidden by a skin, with no real penalty bar DBoS and it means all the muggles run it.

BUT I can see the need for a weak food to hide vamp.for RP guys as per the threads. I'm thinking PvP only.

I believe the passives are what makes it overpowered.

To be honest the bulk of people run it for Regen. Especially since Morrowind.

Undeath isn't actually as good as it seems with the fire damage.. So really people are selling out their RP soul for 10% regen.

But I state my view again, running vamp should be more than a choice about regen for meta specs. Look like a vamp, and do vamp stuff to get vamp passives I can support. Making the skills decent again, would help. There are however way bigger balance items needing attention first.

It's also quite ridiculous that a Templar has no PVP mobility and must take Mist Form. Something like that shouldn't be mandatory at all. Give Fighter's guild a movement skill, give something else a movement skill, don't force people to be Vampires to be competitive. I think the developers have approached Vampirism wrongly by assuming we'd all want to be one indirectly.

@Knowledge, what are you talking about? The Templar has an in class gap closer.

I doubt a healer seeking to disengaged wants to close the gap with his enemy.

If you're running a fragile healbot in Cyrodiil, and you don't have rapids slotted... what are you doing?

Rapids doesn't include a 10% stam and magicka recovery boost or a 75% reduction in damage taken (Elusive Mist)

Beardimus

Knowledge wrote: »

chaserstorm16909 wrote: »

All my characters are vampires and I don't completely disagree with the op. But if you're going to implement the upkeep he is suggesting, it needs to be made more worth our while. Otherwise, there won't be any vampires left.

Sure, maybe take away the detriments and make keeping vampirism an ordeal. This is just a loose example but if you don't feed for long enough maybe you just lose the benefits all together and have to go through a grindy feeding session of maybe 100+ monsters.

Flat no. That's just miserable.

A few people agree in part with the problem here, Vamp too common and picked for the wrong reasons.

But these solutions aren't cool.

dodgehopper_ESO

I don't know if I agree with the approach but I do believe that Vampires as they exist annoy the hell out of me. They never should have been added to the game. The passives are too good and the weaknesses are really not that impressive. Ironically the class most likely to be opposed to Vampires are likewise the class most likely to need to be a vampire to be functional (Templar). I can't say what they should do to Vampires, whether it be to make Health regeneration in general a better stat and therefore make the loss in health regeneration more meaningful or to do something else entirely. It would be nice for once to see clean humans being more promoted though.

jaschacasadiob16_ESO

How about latest stages of vampirism result in a bounty and guards attacking? Let's avoid turning Wayrest into a mess of white ugly as duck monsters feeding upon all NPCs for free...

JKorr

Knowledge wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

First of all, there's nothing wrong with agreeing with me. I feel I have been misjudged by the forum members and also been turned into a meme. This has devalued anything I say when in fact I actually have good ideas.

If you have good ideas, maybe you should share those instead.

I'll take a minute, @Knowledge, you have, "ideas." With respect, most of these demonstrate a kind of tone deaf quality in relation to the game that exists, or the stated balance goals. Often, your recommendations run directly counter to the established setting (this is an example of that). Then, you get defensive. That's understandable, but it invites further non-constructive conversations.

I don't think you've misjudged the forum members, I think you have misunderstood the game, and its setting. Your ideas (quality irrelevant) are probably fine for a different game. A different setting. Usually, they're not compatible with ESO at all.

So, I'll go back to my original advice, which was, stop making new threads, and spend some time participating in other ones. Look at the discussions that actually occur before you decide that you have an idea that no one has ever thought of before.

Despite everything you've just said people in this thread and other threads do agree with me and like some of my ideas.

I would encourage you to avoid my threads if you don't like them or me.

Please observe whether people are agreeing with me in the future before attacking me falsely.

There are people who agree with posts saying there should be flying dragon mounts in the game. Just because some people agree with a thread doesn't mean the idea is teh bestest evah, that it fits with the lore, or even that it would improve the game. It simply means that some people will agree with ideas that they like. Yes, there are rumors of dragons, there are dragons living in hiding; there are not multiple hundreds of dragons running around playing taxi for the vestiges....

I'm sorry, but the subjects you pick, and the manner you post your threads all hit the "fishing for reactions" buttons, and very few of the "really want a serious discussion" ones. Its happened frequently enough that trolling/baiting is the first reaction any time I see you post a thread, no matter what the subject matter might be.

josiahva

How about no? I am NOT INTERESTED in roleplaying a vampire...I just want the extra versatility the skill line provides. You can roleplay vampire all you want...dont try to make other players roleplayers though.

grumlins

I guess the op doesn't realize that when one is trying to get better speed and hiding skills, we become quite vulnerable to fire skills.

Knowledge wrote: »

I believe Vampirism is rampant in ESO. This is very strange, lore evading, lore breaking - especially for Templar's, and seems to need some changes. The obvious change would be to make it so Vampires just weren't as powerful by nerfing their passives but a more realistic solution would be to apply an upkeep to the Vampirism system.

The upkeep system would provide that you lose power over time in a system of stages. This would change the values for things like Undeath and Supernatural Recovery. For example, without paying the upkeep you would lose the strength of Undeath and Supernatural Recovery every three to six hours.

So, if you don't go around feeding you would perhaps go down to 7% Resource Regeneration then 5% and then 3% until Supernatural Reovery would no longer benefit you at all! However, regardless of whether or not you pay the upkeep you would still suffer the fire damage penalty and health recovery reduction.

This makes much more sense as Vampires in 99% of all fantasy must feed or they become weakened or might even die. In the case of this proposed system you would just be weaker.

As you lose levels of Vampirism due to lack of feeding the amount of Upkeep you must pay would be greater. For example, in order to maintain maximum Supernatural Recovery and Undeath you may need to feed on ten NPCs before the timer expires which then renews the timer or adds x time to it.

But for each level you go down you must feed on an additional five NPCs.

This system is superior to the current system in several ways.

• It makes more sense
• Vampires should be weakened from not feeding
• It doesn't make vampirism effortless

The most defining characteristic of vampires is their unnatural, insatiable need for blood. A hybridization of a plant and vampiric blood led to plants with a similar, voracious hunger for blood, among other things.[10] Blood may not be needed to stay "alive", but doing without it can cause a vampire to become extremely weak and rabid, though some types of vampires will instead become stronger and more vampiric. However, they will still become rabid after too long without blood[7][11] and in some cases, can fall into a coma. Consuming blood also allows some vampire bloodlines to maintain a more inconspicuous appearance, dulling their vampiric qualities but may improve their health and regeneration. If a vampire's bite leaves its victim alive after a feeding, the vampire risks passing its disease to the victim. Blood itself may not be needed to keep a vampire healthy; it is suggested that vampires are able to drain a warmblooded creature's "life force" to replenish their own.

Vampires are essentially parasitic and don't actually need to kill their victims during feeding, however, either out of a frenzied blood-lust or to avoid potential competition, most victims are drained completely. Only two known bloodlines are shown to be able to restrain themselves by feeding without killing, though this is out pragmaticism and most victims suffer a fate worse than death by being kept captive by vampires to be fed on continuously.

Vampires are capable of eating mortal food with no ill effects but won't derive the sustance they need from it.

Here we can see that "some types of vampires will instead become stronger and more vampiric" does not mean ALL Vampires would become stronger and more Vampiric. Further, it goes on to state they will "Still become rabid after too long without blood." This is not reflected in the game. No vampire eventually becomes "rabid" and no vampire "has to feed" in the game. This is against the lore.

Moreover, it states "Blood may not be needed to stay alive, but doing without it can cause a vampire to become extremely weak and rabid". Does taking less damage and having faster resource recovery convey weakness?

In this other example: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampires_of_the_Iliac_Bay,_Chapter_II

We see the following stated: " If I did not kill a warm blooded creature once a night and drink its blood, my hunger would gnaw at me, and any wounds I suffered would not heal no matter how much I rested." So tell me, does Undeath (less damage taken) convey someone not being able to heal?

In this other example: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus

We see the following stated: " Entry 8: Two weeks. Two weeks have passed since Luktuv locked me in my quarters. Try as I might, I cannot free myself. I cannot breach the doors! If I don't feed soon, I feel I will go mad." Does anything in the game encourage us to feed else we go mad? Does anything even require us to feed?

Source with footnotes: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire#cite_note-JOTLL-11

Quoting ShadowHvo:

I recently bought the book "Tales of Tamriel - Book 1: The Land", and it was quite a nice read, really recommended for everyone that would like more insight into the lore of the Elder Scrolls.

However, as a self-proclaimed "Vampire Lorewhore" in the Elder Scrolls setting, I would like to point something rather strange out...

On page 230, (which is the second last page in the book.) Cinna Scholasticus writes the following in line 18:

"By night, these hunters are possessed of extreme fortitude and a powerful ability to recover from wounds."

Now, here comes the killer, the lore studies in the book completely contradicts the ingame version of how the bloodline actually functions. In ESO, we have a 75% Decrease in Health Regen, the lore supporting this particular vampiric bloodline completely contradicts this.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199211/noxiphilic-sanguivoria-lore-inconsistency

Again we see direct lore contradictions.

Dyastrofarkas

From a "Lore" perspective no other players exist. You can not base any lore argument on other players.

Otherwise say goodbye to 90% of the game that "breaks" lore based solely on what other players do, have or play.

VaranisArano

Dyastrofarkas wrote: »

From a "Lore" perspective no other players exist. You can not base any lore argument on other players.

Otherwise say goodbye to 90% of the game that "breaks" lore based solely on what other players do, have or play.

From a lore perspective, all those other players are mere Soul-Shriven running about doing whatever things soul-shriven. I am the Vestige.

Although the mental image of a line of Vestiges queuing up outside the Harborage for their turn to talk the the Prophet and defeat Molag Bal is pretty funny.

Edited to add: from a long term lore perspective, all of the lore from this era doesn't survive to be known in future games and eras. This is why no one in TES IV Oblivion calls out Mehrunes Dagon for being a copycat of the 2nd era Planemeld.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

No. Vampires are good as they are, so are Werewolves. Don't like it don't play one.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

TequilaFire wrote: »

Yep, lets nerf all the things that make people want to play ESO.
Congrats on finding subjects that push peoples buttons!

THIS! Agree 100%. So sick of people crying for nerfs and massive changes ruining everything players have worked for over the past three or four years.

Kelces

The first time I saw the skill line myself, I was surprised, that there was nothing about sun damage. Sure, you can't say only play during ingame night time, especially since it's very short, but there has to be something...

The fact, that about 1/4 (or even more than that) of regular PvP characters are vampire, speaks for itself. Aswell as the reactions to some quite reasonable suggestions in the OP here.

Oh, I can imagine the outrage if only a little bit of those things get implemented. All those tears...

swippy

@Knowledge in the OP your argumentum ad verecundiam (appeal to authority) here includes such terms as "pragmaticism" and "sustance."

you also cited "Blood may not be needed to stay "alive"... some types of vampires will instead become stronger and more vampiric."

hey! it isn't very difficult to cherry-pick!

"any wounds I suffered would not heal no matter how much I rested." So tell me, does Undeath (less damage taken) convey someone not being able to heal?

yup, reduced vulnerability and rapid healing are commonly entertained as seperate concepts coming standard.


but after all that, you're still not addressing the concept of the Unreliable Narrator that gives TES lore its strength in the first place. if you're not accounting for that you're missing a big piece.

SirAndy

Knowledge wrote: »

...

Or, just make Silver Bolts work again like they used to back when vampirism was introduced ...

Darrett

SirAndy wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

...

Or, just make Silver Bolts work again like they used to back when vampirism was introduced ...

The issue I have with that is that the bonuses provided by vampirism aren’t strong enough to revert FG abilities back to hard counter status, but they’re still strong enough to warrant far too many people choosing it because of limited drawbacks.

Zoltan_117

Currently the only benefit of vampire is the sneak speed, and so for pure combat the negatives outweight pros and we get quite smashed, making nightblades even more squishy. We need some changes to make this less grey and more a yes or no for our playstyle.

Also the roleplay impacts mentioned in here are valid.

josiahva

Zoltan_117 wrote: »

Currently the only benefit of vampire is the sneak speed, and so for pure combat the negatives outweight pros and we get quite smashed, making nightblades even more squishy. We need some changes to make this less grey and more a yes or no for our playstyle.

Also the roleplay impacts mentioned in here are valid.

Vampire has many befits...mostly in the passives, but mist form provides mobility to classes sorely lacking it, and I usually have the ult slotted in PvP for a few seconds of zerg-survival(also as a quick counter to nightblades cloaking away since unlike sorcs as a MDK I have no handy self-centered AoE like hurricane to provide this functionality and magelight seems to work about 30% of the time even if you are right next to the cloaked nightblade). But really the negatives dont outweigh the positives or fewer people would run it...as an example my PvE tank is a vampire and its no drawback at all, I dont even notice the increased fire damage. I think vamp is fine as is, but werewolf could use some serious work. Dawnbreaker and increased fire damage in PvP are enough of a drawback not to be a vamp(or a werewolf). Dawnbreaker always hurts when I run into it there...but there are no viable alternatives for utility skills and passives.

xxthir13enxx

Heh reading through all this and the only real thought I’m left with is...

RIP Legacy of Kain. You are truly missed.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed more baiting comments as well as some naming and shaming. Let's keep comments constructive and on topic. Personal insults are not permitted as outlined in the forum rules. If the thread cannot stay constructive, we will consider closing it. Thank you for your understanding.

Knowledge

Darrett wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

...

Or, just make Silver Bolts work again like they used to back when vampirism was introduced ...

The issue I have with that is that the bonuses provided by vampirism aren’t strong enough to revert FG abilities back to hard counter status, but they’re still strong enough to warrant far too many people choosing it because of limited drawbacks.

Perhaps not enough to revert them back to hard counter status but the Fighter's Guild skill line could be a soft counter and provide greater damage against vampires. Perhaps the abilities would ignore armor or critical resistance on a vampire or werewolf.