I propose that Vampirism should have a high upkeep cost and should be reworked in its entirety.

Knowledge

I believe Vampirism is rampant in ESO. This is very strange, lore evading, lore breaking - especially for Templar's, and seems to need some changes. The obvious change would be to make it so Vampires just weren't as powerful by nerfing their passives but a more realistic solution would be to apply an upkeep to the Vampirism system.

The upkeep system would provide that you lose power over time in a system of stages. This would change the values for things like Undeath and Supernatural Recovery. For example, without paying the upkeep you would lose the strength of Undeath and Supernatural Recovery every three to six hours.

So, if you don't go around feeding you would perhaps go down to 7% Resource Regeneration then 5% and then 3% until Supernatural Reovery would no longer benefit you at all! However, regardless of whether or not you pay the upkeep you would still suffer the fire damage penalty and health recovery reduction.

This makes much more sense as Vampires in 99% of all fantasy must feed or they become weakened or might even die. In the case of this proposed system you would just be weaker.

As you lose levels of Vampirism due to lack of feeding the amount of Upkeep you must pay would be greater. For example, in order to maintain maximum Supernatural Recovery and Undeath you may need to feed on ten NPCs before the timer expires which then renews the timer or adds x time to it.

But for each level you go down you must feed on an additional five NPCs.

This system is superior to the current system in several ways.

• It makes more sense
• Vampires should be weakened from not feeding
• It doesn't make vampirism effortless

The most defining characteristic of vampires is their unnatural, insatiable need for blood. A hybridization of a plant and vampiric blood led to plants with a similar, voracious hunger for blood, among other things.[10] Blood may not be needed to stay "alive", but doing without it can cause a vampire to become extremely weak and rabid, though some types of vampires will instead become stronger and more vampiric. However, they will still become rabid after too long without blood[7][11] and in some cases, can fall into a coma. Consuming blood also allows some vampire bloodlines to maintain a more inconspicuous appearance, dulling their vampiric qualities but may improve their health and regeneration. If a vampire's bite leaves its victim alive after a feeding, the vampire risks passing its disease to the victim. Blood itself may not be needed to keep a vampire healthy; it is suggested that vampires are able to drain a warmblooded creature's "life force" to replenish their own.

Vampires are essentially parasitic and don't actually need to kill their victims during feeding, however, either out of a frenzied blood-lust or to avoid potential competition, most victims are drained completely. Only two known bloodlines are shown to be able to restrain themselves by feeding without killing, though this is out pragmaticism and most victims suffer a fate worse than death by being kept captive by vampires to be fed on continuously.

Vampires are capable of eating mortal food with no ill effects but won't derive the sustance they need from it.

Here we can see that "some types of vampires will instead become stronger and more vampiric" does not mean ALL Vampires would become stronger and more Vampiric. Further, it goes on to state they will "Still become rabid after too long without blood." This is not reflected in the game. No vampire eventually becomes "rabid" and no vampire "has to feed" in the game. This is against the lore.

Moreover, it states "Blood may not be needed to stay alive, but doing without it can cause a vampire to become extremely weak and rabid". Does taking less damage and having faster resource recovery convey weakness?

In this other example: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampires_of_the_Iliac_Bay,_Chapter_II

We see the following stated: " If I did not kill a warm blooded creature once a night and drink its blood, my hunger would gnaw at me, and any wounds I suffered would not heal no matter how much I rested." So tell me, does Undeath (less damage taken) convey someone not being able to heal?

In this other example: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus

We see the following stated: " Entry 8: Two weeks. Two weeks have passed since Luktuv locked me in my quarters. Try as I might, I cannot free myself. I cannot breach the doors! If I don't feed soon, I feel I will go mad." Does anything in the game encourage us to feed else we go mad? Does anything even require us to feed?

Source with footnotes: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire#cite_note-JOTLL-11

Quoting ShadowHvo:

I recently bought the book "Tales of Tamriel - Book 1: The Land", and it was quite a nice read, really recommended for everyone that would like more insight into the lore of the Elder Scrolls.

However, as a self-proclaimed "Vampire Lorewhore" in the Elder Scrolls setting, I would like to point something rather strange out...

On page 230, (which is the second last page in the book.) Cinna Scholasticus writes the following in line 18:

"By night, these hunters are possessed of extreme fortitude and a powerful ability to recover from wounds."

Now, here comes the killer, the lore studies in the book completely contradicts the ingame version of how the bloodline actually functions. In ESO, we have a 75% Decrease in Health Regen, the lore supporting this particular vampiric bloodline completely contradicts this.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199211/noxiphilic-sanguivoria-lore-inconsistency

Again we see direct lore contradictions.

Minyassa

But why disrupt the builds of thousands of players, and the way they currently enjoy playing their vamps, just for the sake of making sense with lore? I'm as much of a lore-hound as the next guy but it would bring me no satisfaction to see something changed just for the sake of fantasy "realism" if it made a hell of a lot of people miserable to do it.

Knowledge

Minyassa wrote: »

But why disrupt the builds of thousands of players, and the way they currently enjoy playing their vamps, just for the sake of making sense with lore? I'm as much of a lore-hound as the next guy but it would bring me no satisfaction to see something changed just for the sake of fantasy "realism" if it made a hell of a lot of people miserable to do it.

For the exact same reason the resource system was dramatically changed.

Minyassa

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

Knowledge

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

Shezzarrine

Knowledge wrote: »

This makes much more sense as Vampires in 99% of all fantasy must feed or they become weakened or might even die. In the case of this proposed system you would just be weaker.


[/list]

Maybe in 99% of all fantasy but not in the Elder Scrolls. The system works just as the lore on vampires says; the longer you go without feeding the stronger you get, but your weakness to fire is multiplied.

And you say it is lore breaking to have so many vampires running around, well it's also lore breaking to have more than one vestige, more than one hero of each storyline, ext. It's just an MMO thing.

The only thing really lore breaking is that the vampires are not attacked on sight, but that would require a lot of work to implement, such as creating spots without guards for vampires to do things such as writs without being attacked. But it's just not worth it to implement that system.

Princess_Ciri

no this is a bad idea

Knowledge

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

no this is a bad idea

I think people deem it a bad idea because the majority are vampires and wish to be lazy without having to pay an upkeep cost.

Minyassa

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

Solely for the sake of lore?

Knowledge

Minyassa wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

Solely for the sake of lore?

No, because ZeniMax felt we were too powerful.

Shezzarrine

Minyassa wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

Solely for the sake of lore?

No, it's because they thought people had too much sustain plain and simple. Had nothing to do with the lore

Knowledge

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

another "nerf nightblade thread" hidden and disguised by the wording in the title.

pretty much 80% of nightblades like me that play sneak rogue playstyle are vampires and only for that sneak speed passive vampire has.
everyone knows nightbladeds that play rouge stealth types that rely on sneak speeds and fast sneak speeds, if you rework and destroy that fast sneak speed passive from vampirism you cripple and destroy nightblade play.

i am all for removing the bad health decrease of 75%
and also removing that extreme damage from fire.

but that sneak speed is the only must remain and infact be increased if vampire is reworked.

please stop making threads designed to destroy what we have in eso.

This has nothing to do with Nightblades. Tanks use Vampirism, Templars do in PVP, a lot of classes benefit from it, even Sorc.

SydneyGrey

Vampirism is fine. They should just leave it alone.

And no, I don't have any vampire characters.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

please stop making threads designed to destroy what we have in eso.

Also, THIS.

Knowledge

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Vampirism is fine. They should just leave it alone.

And no, I don't have any vampire characters.

Why do you think it's fine?

Guarlet

Knowledge wrote: »

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

no this is a bad idea

I think people deem it a bad idea because the majority are vampires and wish to be lazy without having to pay an upkeep cost.

It's a strange day when I agree with Knowledge, but this seems likely. As it is now vampires get a very nice sustain boost with relatively little to pay in return-- the extra fire damage taken and health regen reduction are both easily worked around.

Introducing an upkeep cost is an interesting idea, but that may prove more difficult to implement than the simpler alternative, just nerfing the passives a bit. It would be easy to kill vampire altogether if it wasn't done right, and that isn't desirable either.

Aebaradath

All I heard was buff Werewolf.

@Wrobelord

Knowledge

Guarlet wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Princess_Ciri wrote: »

no this is a bad idea

I think people deem it a bad idea because the majority are vampires and wish to be lazy without having to pay an upkeep cost.

It's a strange day when I agree with Knowledge, but this seems likely. As it is now vampires get a very nice sustain boost with relatively little to pay in return-- the extra fire damage taken and health regen reduction are both easily worked around.

Introducing an upkeep cost is an interesting idea, but that may prove more difficult to implement than the simpler alternative, just nerfing the passives a bit. It would be easy to kill vampire altogether if it wasn't done right, and that isn't desirable either.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with agreeing with me. I feel I have been misjudged by the forum members and have also been turned into a meme. This has devalued anything I say when in fact I actually have good ideas.

TequilaFire

Yep, lets nerf all the things that make people want to play ESO.
Congrats on finding subjects that push peoples buttons!

Aliyavana

The appearance alone is keeping many people who would be vampires mortals. It's fine

Knowledge

Aliyavana wrote: »

The appearance alone is keeping many people who would be vampires mortals. It's fine

I just use a skin.

starkerealm

Knowledge wrote: »

First of all, there's nothing wrong with agreeing with me. I feel I have been misjudged by the forum members and also been turned into a meme. This has devalued anything I say when in fact I actually have good ideas.

If you have good ideas, maybe you should share those instead.

I'll take a minute, @Knowledge, you have, "ideas." With respect, most of these demonstrate a kind of tone deaf quality in relation to the game that exists, or the stated balance goals. Often, your recommendations run directly counter to the established setting (this is an example of that). Then, you get defensive. That's understandable, but it invites further non-constructive conversations.

I don't think you've misjudged the forum members, I think you have misunderstood the game, and its setting. Your ideas (quality irrelevant) are probably fine for a different game. A different setting. Usually, they're not compatible with ESO at all.

So, I'll go back to my original advice, which was, stop making new threads, and spend some time participating in other ones. Look at the discussions that actually occur before you decide that you have an idea that no one has ever thought of before.

Tan9oSuccka

There needs to be some meaningful negatives for balance. There’s really no drawbacks.

Cyrodiil is littered with the foul creatures.

Revert original fire damage and make the Fighters guild abilities work like before. Hitting a vamp with a crossbow used to knock down and do significant damage.

Knowledge

starkerealm wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

First of all, there's nothing wrong with agreeing with me. I feel I have been misjudged by the forum members and also been turned into a meme. This has devalued anything I say when in fact I actually have good ideas.

If you have good ideas, maybe you should share those instead.

I'll take a minute, @Knowledge, you have, "ideas." With respect, most of these demonstrate a kind of tone deaf quality in relation to the game that exists, or the stated balance goals. Often, your recommendations run directly counter to the established setting (this is an example of that). Then, you get defensive. That's understandable, but it invites further non-constructive conversations.

I don't think you've misjudged the forum members, I think you have misunderstood the game, and its setting. Your ideas (quality irrelevant) are probably fine for a different game. A different setting. Usually, they're not compatible with ESO at all.

So, I'll go back to my original advice, which was, stop making new threads, and spend some time participating in other ones. Look at the discussions that actually occur before you decide that you have an idea that no one has ever thought of before.

Despite everything you've just said people in this thread and other threads do agree with me and like some of my ideas.

I would encourage you to avoid my threads if you don't like them or me.

Please observe whether people are agreeing with me in the future before attacking me falsely.

TequilaFire

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

There needs to be some meaningful negatives for balance. There’s really no drawbacks.

Cyrodiil is littered with the foul creatures.

Revert original fire damage and make the Fighters guild abilities work like before. Hitting a vamp with a crossbow used to knock down and do significant damage.

Now this I could go for, I miss those days.

Knowledge

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

There needs to be some meaningful negatives for balance. There’s really no drawbacks.

Cyrodiil is littered with the foul creatures.

Revert original fire damage and make the Fighters guild abilities work like before. Hitting a vamp with a crossbow used to knock down and do significant damage.

This would be ideal also. It would make sense and give the Fighter's Guild a bit more relevancy.

NordSwordnBoard

Everything you suggest as a penalty could be solved with Bloody Mara's, which would more likely drive up the ingredients cost than discourage vampirism.

VaranisArano

The lore is that the longer Elder Scrolls vampires go without feeding, the greater both the advantages and disadvantages of being a vampire get. That's true in the games, especially say, Dawnguard, an entire DLC based in part around vampires.

The thirstier an Elder Scrolls vampire is for blood, the stronger their vampire abilities and the more damaging their disadvantages like fire weaknesses are.

Yes, thats contrary to an awful lot of other vampire from other series, but why does that matter? This is the Elder Scrolls. Any upkeep system you want added needs to follow the existing Elder Scrolls lore for vampires.

Knowledge

VaranisArano wrote: »

The lore is that the longer Elder Scrolls vampires go without feeding, the greater both the advantages and disadvantages of being a vampire get. That's true in the games, especially say, Dawnguard, an entire DLC based in part around vampires.

The thirstier an Elder Scrolls vampire is for blood, the stronger their vampire abilities and the more damaging their disadvantages like fire weaknesses are.

Yes, thats contrary to an awful lot of other vampire from other series, but why does that matter? This is the Elder Scrolls. Any upkeep system you want added needs to follow the existing Elder Scrolls lore for vampires.

Do you advocate an upkeep system, think the system is fine currently, or wish it to be changed in any capacity?

zaria

TequilaFire wrote: »

Yep, lets nerf all the things that make people want to play ESO.
Congrats on finding subjects that push peoples buttons!

That was Morrowind, none outside of some elitists and then mostly pvp liked it as it was an overall blanked nerf and made HA needed in most builds.

Horn of the reach and the balancing of traits and mundus was well received even if an nerf to meta.
Simply as other options than sharpened and thief became relevant.
You can say vampires is too common so nerf or better increase the disadvantage, perhaps an health debuff, this can be resolved with healthy enchants but it give less main resource if you don't want to live with lower health.

Knowledge

zaria wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Yep, lets nerf all the things that make people want to play ESO.
Congrats on finding subjects that push peoples buttons!

That was Morrowind, none outside of some elitists and then mostly pvp liked it as it was an overall blanked nerf and made HA needed in most builds.

Horn of the reach and the balancing of traits and mundus was well received even if an nerf to meta.
Simply as other options than sharpened and thief became relevant.
You can say vampires is too common so nerf or better increase the disadvantage, perhaps an health debuff, this can be resolved with healthy enchants but it give less main resource if you don't want to live with lower health.

Thanks for your submission.

Beardimus

Knowledge wrote: »

First of all, there's nothing wrong with agreeing with me. I feel I have been misjudged by the forum members and have also been turned into a meme. This has devalued anything I say when in fact I actually have good ideas.

Sadly @knowledge by spamming daily threads, many of which the motives are unclear, this was bound to happen. I would not say the forum has set out to devalue your ideas, thats unfair, the forum has reacted to the way in which they are presented is perhaps a better light . It's also about how posts are then responded too. It has felt like many topics where picked for contentious debate, or some form of reaction farming. Hopefully its neither of those, but better you made aware of the perception so any of your quality ideas aren't scuppered.

Back to the point, I think you have a great point around Vampire. I agree the choice needs to be at a bigger cost. However I disagree totally with your solution. I think the answer is simpler, force slotting a Vamp Skill, as bar space is a commodity these days is one step, and just making the choice harder.

Many pick werewolf for the fun aspect, part RP even. And Vamp should be the same. Instead post MW people lusted after the regen and it became meta. I think the negative passives need boosting, all fighters guild skills hit harder and personally the regen could go / get nerfed.

Lastly Vamps should always, 100% of the time look like vamps. Again this debate goes away as many dont want to be a vamp or look like a vamp but they want the regen.