I propose that Vampirism should have a high upkeep cost and should be reworked in its entirety.

Beardimus

*sigh*

Hoped to come back and see decent debate and discussion. Yet again the thread is litterered with cherry picked straw man arguments and the argumentation has become the focus over the topic. What a shame another one bites the dust. (pun excused)

I was actually with you in principle @Knowledge, i think Vampire should be more of a penalised choice, but disagree with your solution, and elements of your argument. But threads like this and the way responses are handled are why salient points of next threads will be missed. It's quite exhausting.

Im not lecturing, but through this thread you have askes why your threads go this way so i think its relevant to respond, in short If you put the same effort in you will get the same effect out. I'm sure there's a fancy quote I could quote however its good enough.

Personally I think a poll - do we think Vampire is too meta and needs power Nerf / 'cost' penalty increase Yay/Nay would have been a better starting place to gauge opinion.

Knowledge

DoctorESO wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

Summary of responses to the idea:

Vampires:




Non-Vampires:

Where do you stand on it, DoctorESO?

Not sure. I'll have to think about it. I think it will make the game a lot less fun for a large proportion of players (the vampires). I envision ZOS creating a food item (like Bloody Mara) that keeps people satiated, and people will just eat this food every 3-6 hours.

I see no problem with this as it creates a new gold sink and requires investment to remain a vampire whether it be gold or time(feeding on enough to pay the upkeep). This seems more realistic than the current never-feed always-on passives.

Beardimus

Knowledge wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

Summary of responses to the idea:

Vampires:




Non-Vampires:

Where do you stand on it, DoctorESO?

Not sure. I'll have to think about it. I think it will make the game a lot less fun for a large proportion of players (the vampires). I envision ZOS creating a food item (like Bloody Mara) that keeps people satiated, and people will just eat this food every 3-6 hours.

I see no problem with this as it creates a new gold sink and requires investment to remain a vampire whether it be gold or time(feeding on enough to pay the upkeep). This seems more realistic than the current never-feed always-on passives.

^ that's not factual. Many I know in PvP feed to remain in Stage 3 if they dont use sneak.

Most I know feed (bloody mara - not a gold sink at all, free recipe, cheap ingrediants) in vMA to stage 2 or even 1 for the fire rounds - 8&9.

As I said I'm all for more fighters guild damage, all for less regen, all for needing a skill spotted for the buffs. That will be a enough. (perhaps less penalty if you have a skill spotted)

If you have to look like a Vamp (compulsory as far as I'm concerned) and use Vamp skills then its ok to have the passives.

Betsararie

It's good man I just felt that we don't need to change it in its entirety you know what I'm sayin'. I'm a lazy *** ppl do *** for me in this game. lol

Knowledge

Blanco wrote: »

It's good man I just felt that we don't need to change it in its entirety you know what I'm sayin'. I'm a lazy *** ppl do *** for me in this game. lol

At least you're honest.

Feanor

In PvP Vampire is the choice for classes that don’t have mobility (Templars and DKs) because of Mistform. It’s also the only way for a magicka character to get snare removal currently. Address these points, and you’re seeing far less vampires. Snare removal and mobility is so important in PvP that you take the downsides of being a vampire - +20% damage on Dawnbreaker (almost every stam build runs this) and increased fire damage. Especially in noCP and with Coldfire ballistas the damage doesn’t just tickle.

Knowledge

Feanor wrote: »

In PvP Vampire is the choice for classes that don’t have mobility (Templars and DKs) because of Mistform. It’s also the only way for a magicka character to get snare removal currently. Address these points, and you’re seeing far less vampires. Snare removal and mobility is so important in PvP that you take the downsides of being a vampire - +20% damage on Dawnbreaker (almost every stam build runs this) and increased fire damage. Especially in noCP and with Coldfire ballistas the damage doesn’t just tickle.

That's a good idea and point you've made.

At this point, we may as well be asked to select Vampire or Werewolf at the character selection screen or given the option there. Like you said, sometimes being a Vampire is a necessity and not really a choice if you wish to be competitive. And lets be honest, most people play to win not to lose.

Mureel

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

There needs to be some meaningful negatives for balance. There’s really no drawbacks.

Cyrodiil is littered with the foul creatures.

Revert original fire damage and make the Fighters guild abilities work like before. Hitting a vamp with a crossbow used to knock down and do significant damage.

Let's also NOT PRETEND that if you're not a vamp, you're not a werewolf with not many exceptions.

FG Stuff should work on WW too then.

The reason it stopped working the way it did? Complaining PVPers.

PVErs don't shoot each other with things and we mitigated the original fire damage ages ago even before CP. It was No Big Deal.

Also someone asked why people wear skins to hide vampire; I don't! But sometimes I wear skins to look awesome. When the Fish skin comes - it will happen.

Also if they put the tattoo layer ON TOP of the pale layer, that would be better but they don't.

starkerealm

[edited to remove quote]

@Beardimus, to be fair, there is a very strong argument for being able to hide vamprisim, due to fluff and roleplaying considerations, that have nothing to do with minmaxing. Specifically, players who want their character to be a vampire, but also want to have the ability to hide it under certain circumstances. This is an ability that is demonstrated by a number of vampires in the games, including in ESO.

Now, here's the catch, none of the vampires who exhibit this behavior are members of the Lamae bloodline, so there's also a strong argument against this.

At the very least, on the subject of having control over what our characters look like, I seriously wish we had cosmetic skins for stages 1 - 4, and a mortal skin. Again, this isn't because people feel they're being "forced into vampirism," because the passives are too strong, just that some vampire players, legitimately, want the ability to hide it on occasion.

As I recall, at least one RPer has gone so far as to create a duplicate copy of her main, specifically so she can hide vampirism.

Beardimus

[edited to remove quotes]

starkerealm wrote: »

@Beardimus, to be fair, there is a very strong argument for being able to hide vamprisim, due to fluff and roleplaying considerations, that have nothing to do with minmaxing. Specifically, players who want their character to be a vampire, but also want to have the ability to hide it under certain circumstances. This is an ability that is demonstrated by a number of vampires in the games, including in ESO.

Now, here's the catch, none of the vampires who exhibit this behavior are members of the Lamae bloodline, so there's also a strong argument against this.

At the very least, on the subject of having control over what our characters look like, I seriously wish we had cosmetic skins for stages 1 - 4, and a mortal skin. Again, this isn't because people feel they're being "forced into vampirism," because the passives are too strong, just that some vampire players, legitimately, want the ability to hide it on occasion.

As I recall, at least one RPer has gone so far as to create a duplicate copy of her main, specifically so she can hide vampirism.

Ah ok I see @starkerealm thats a great point. I've only really seen the side of this debate I mentioned, but you have a gd point. And actually in a PvE environment I have no issue with hit temporarily being hidden, I've really only come at it from a interaction / PvP side. I can see the frustration for RP etc - but as you say it does need to meet lore. I guess ZOS could throw a food out there, poor stats, that changes the look, might be a workaround for folks.

I guess I'm angling that part of penalty of Vamp should continue to be the look, to help thin the numbers in PvP purely for regen.

starkerealm

[Edited to remove quote]

Yeah, visuals won't change the PvP side of things. At that point, the downsides need to be something more substantial than just a penalty to health recovery. Again, a healing received penalty would make people think very seriously about whether they wanted to be a vampire or not. Of course, as is, the best solution to a vampire infestation in PvP is still DBoS.

Beardimus

Absolutely, and in fact I cured Vamp of late for that very reason DBoS is just too popular.

And lol, I run it on my MSorc for the same reason. Which is kinda barmy so many of us running a stamina Ulti

SkillzMFG

Have you ever played previous Elder Scrolls games?

The more you go on without feeding the more powerful vampiric abilities you get, however you get fire (sun) weakness and your face gets disfigured...just like in ESO! So it's completely lore-friendly and I see no problem with it, however I do think that vampires should get their abilities improved.

Ragged_Claw

Knowledge wrote: »

Ragged_Claw wrote: »

I've been a vampire on my main since early access and it is far from easy to maintain, that health regen is a killer (literally) try getting half-way through a trial and realising that you've forgotten your bloody Double Bloody Mara - and back in the day we didn't even have that. As it stands few (if any) of the skills are of any use and it's my experience that fewer players are bothering with it, unless for RP purposes. If anything I feel that both vamp and WW need some love, not punishment. As far as lore goes, what works in a single player game is not necessarily going to work in an MMO (there are at least a milliion threads on how the lore has changed in ESO). Also vampires spread vamprism, no? Why is it unbelievable that there would be so many vampires running around? Did you not read Dracula or Salem's Lot?? Joiiiin ussssss...

So, you'd advocate vampire passives without any detriment at all? We'd all just be vampires.

Of course not. And it's too easy to get vampirism now with it in the crown store. But I think as it stands it's fine, you have to weigh up the pros and cons and decide if its worth it to you. I'd like to see some changes to the skills, not necessarily to make them more damaging, or unbalanced, just more useful so there would be a point to taking up valuable slots for them.

Uviryth

The visuals are disadvantage enough in my opinon.
Yes you may have slight advantages, but you will look [snip]

And skins are not an option, because you made your character to look at it (especially roleplayers, which this thread aims at).

[Edited for inappropriate commentary]

klowdy1

Let's just make it work like oblivion, where sunlight drains health.

Skander

You probably never faced dawnbreaker or a dk as a vampire

ZOS_Ragnar

We have removed some comments that were inappropriate. Please keep your posts civil and constructive.

starkerealm

EDIT: Whoops. Responded to a post I could see... and now @ZOS_RyanM has fed it to a grue.

temjiu

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

First of all, there's nothing wrong with agreeing with me. I feel I have been misjudged by the forum members and have also been turned into a meme. This has devalued anything I say when in fact I actually have good ideas.

Sadly @knowledge by spamming daily threads, many of which the motives are unclear, this was bound to happen. I would not say the forum has set out to devalue your ideas, thats unfair, the forum has reacted to the way in which they are presented is perhaps a better light . It's also about how posts are then responded too. It has felt like many topics where picked for contentious debate, or some form of reaction farming. Hopefully its neither of those, but better you made aware of the perception so any of your quality ideas aren't scuppered.

Back to the point, I think you have a great point around Vampire. I agree the choice needs to be at a bigger cost. However I disagree totally with your solution. I think the answer is simpler, force slotting a Vamp Skill, as bar space is a commodity these days is one step, and just making the choice harder.

Many pick werewolf for the fun aspect, part RP even. And Vamp should be the same. Instead post MW people lusted after the regen and it became meta. I think the negative passives need boosting, all fighters guild skills hit harder and personally the regen could go / get nerfed.

Lastly Vamps should always, 100% of the time look like vamps. Again this debate goes away as many dont want to be a vamp or look like a vamp but they want the regen.

I agree with this. I enjoy WW, but I have to lose a slot, and it has a cost: a timer that requires feeding to maintain. Vamps should have a similar cost. at the very least a toggled transform that requires a skill slot. That's a big cost. There's a reason most guide recommend Vamp but not WW...The slot is a big loss. requiring a slot and make the upkeep a bit more directly impacting. WW has a weakness to poison (and to a lesser extent, fighters line stuff), but the big limitations is the skill slot, and the need to constantly feed. If vamps had that, many people would reconsider the option. This would allow the dev's to also make the skill line a bit heavier on the function side, since it's taking up a skill slots worth of ability.

And yeah, I agree, if you want to be a vamp, you should be forced to deal with the looks. suck it up buttercup...you want the power? deal with the Bfuglies.

Ashtaris

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

And you want to make it worse by nerfing vamps. gj.

Knowledge

Ashtaris wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

And you want to make it worse by nerfing vamps. gj.

Vampires are overpowered and pay no real penalty.

Beardimus

Knowledge wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

And you want to make it worse by nerfing vamps. gj.

Vampires are overpowered and pay no real penalty.

They aren't overpowered at all. Who uses the abilities?

That passives are too attractive against the downsides is all, post morrowind everyone is greedy for regen.

Vamp abilities need a buff to make them great again, ut fired slot a skill to get the passive is my view. Look like Vamp, be a vamp, do vamp stuff get vamp passives.

Run around hidden by a skin, with no real penalty bar DBoS and it means all the muggles run it.

BUT I can see the need for a weak food to hide vamp.for RP guys as per the threads. I'm thinking PvP only.

Knowledge

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

And you want to make it worse by nerfing vamps. gj.

Vampires are overpowered and pay no real penalty.

They aren't overpowered at all. Who uses the abilities?

That passives are too attractive against the downsides is all, post morrowind everyone is greedy for regen.

Vamp abilities need a buff to make them great again, ut fired slot a skill to get the passive is my view. Look like Vamp, be a vamp, do vamp stuff get vamp passives.

Run around hidden by a skin, with no real penalty bar DBoS and it means all the muggles run it.

BUT I can see the need for a weak food to hide vamp.for RP guys as per the threads. I'm thinking PvP only.

I believe the passives are what makes it overpowered.

Sunday_Samurai

I would like to see vampirism as NOT mandatory for every endgame build. It provides too many perks with laughable downsides. It should be something you do for fun and flavour on your playstyle, like Lycanthropy currently is.

Knowledge

Sunday_Samurai wrote: »

I would like to see vampirism as NOT mandatory for every endgame build. It provides too many perks with laughable downsides. It should be something you do for fun and flavour on your playstyle, like Lycanthropy currently is.

I think we're in agreement.

Beardimus

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

And you want to make it worse by nerfing vamps. gj.

Vampires are overpowered and pay no real penalty.

They aren't overpowered at all. Who uses the abilities?

That passives are too attractive against the downsides is all, post morrowind everyone is greedy for regen.

Vamp abilities need a buff to make them great again, ut fired slot a skill to get the passive is my view. Look like Vamp, be a vamp, do vamp stuff get vamp passives.

Run around hidden by a skin, with no real penalty bar DBoS and it means all the muggles run it.

BUT I can see the need for a weak food to hide vamp.for RP guys as per the threads. I'm thinking PvP only.

I believe the passives are what makes it overpowered.

To be honest the bulk of people run it for Regen. Especially since Morrowind.

Undeath isn't actually as good as it seems with the fire damage.. So really people are selling out their RP soul for 10% regen.

But I state my view again, running vamp should be more than a choice about regen for meta specs. Look like a vamp, and do vamp stuff to get vamp passives I can support. Making the skills decent again, would help. There are however way bigger balance items needing attention first.

chaserstorm16909

All my characters are vampires and I don't completely disagree with the op. But if you're going to implement the upkeep he is suggesting, it needs to be made more worth our while. Otherwise, there won't be any vampires left.

Knowledge

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ashtaris wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Minyassa wrote: »

I'm not familiar with that change, had to have been before I started playing and have not heard anyone discussing it. They really made a very large change to game mechanics solely for the sake of lore?

With the launch of Morrowind resource sustain and how it worked changed dramatically.

And you want to make it worse by nerfing vamps. gj.

Vampires are overpowered and pay no real penalty.

They aren't overpowered at all. Who uses the abilities?

That passives are too attractive against the downsides is all, post morrowind everyone is greedy for regen.

Vamp abilities need a buff to make them great again, ut fired slot a skill to get the passive is my view. Look like Vamp, be a vamp, do vamp stuff get vamp passives.

Run around hidden by a skin, with no real penalty bar DBoS and it means all the muggles run it.

BUT I can see the need for a weak food to hide vamp.for RP guys as per the threads. I'm thinking PvP only.

I believe the passives are what makes it overpowered.

To be honest the bulk of people run it for Regen. Especially since Morrowind.

Undeath isn't actually as good as it seems with the fire damage.. So really people are selling out their RP soul for 10% regen.

But I state my view again, running vamp should be more than a choice about regen for meta specs. Look like a vamp, and do vamp stuff to get vamp passives I can support. Making the skills decent again, would help. There are however way bigger balance items needing attention first.

It's also quite ridiculous that a Templar has no PVP mobility and must take Mist Form. Something like that shouldn't be mandatory at all. Give Fighter's guild a movement skill, give something else a movement skill, don't force people to be Vampires to be competitive. I think the developers have approached Vampirism wrongly by assuming we'd all want to be one indirectly.

Knowledge

chaserstorm16909 wrote: »

All my characters are vampires and I don't completely disagree with the op. But if you're going to implement the upkeep he is suggesting, it needs to be made more worth our while. Otherwise, there won't be any vampires left.

Sure, maybe take away the detriments and make keeping vampirism an ordeal. This is just a loose example but if you don't feed for long enough maybe you just lose the benefits all together and have to go through a grindy feeding session of maybe 100+ monsters.