Ice Staff DPS: Drop the taunt and add a small, passive execute.

Savos_Saren

I know that people consider Fire and Lightning damage to be the go-to for magicka-based DPS. And I know that a lot of people think that MagWardens are low on the totem pole for DPS. My suggestion is that they keep some of the aspects of Ice Staff tanking (the block mechanics passive) but remove the taunt. In my time as an Ice Warden tank- I've always had SnB on my front bar (with a taunt) and Ice Staff back barred.

If you remove the taunt from Ice Staves- it'll allow DPSers interested in ice abilities to have more meaningful gameplay without interrupting the Tank's taunt.

If you add a small execute (ie: light/heavy attacks do ##/##% more damage to low health enemies) it'll also make ice DPS more appealing.

What do you think, Wardens?

Lynx7386

I think this dead horse needs to be allowed to rest in peace. Frost staff is fine.

LeHarrt91

While i agree with the taunt being removed (so that it can be used by those who want to dps with it), i do like that its a defensive/ utility weapon for magicka.

Savos_Saren

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I think this dead horse needs to be allowed to rest in peace. Frost staff is fine.

I also see that you don't play a MagWarden...

ascan7

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I think this dead horse needs to be allowed to rest in peace. Frost staff is fine.

Thank god people didn't listen to the dead horse argument (if we can even call it an argument) and continued to ask for 2h and staves to count as 2 set pieces. After a lot of "it's a dead horse", it finally happened.

FR0STDEE

It's funny im a day one player and I use to use a frost staff before they put a taunt on it. Then they put the taunt on and it was unusable for me. I agree with going back to how it was but every time this discussion comes up I laugh. All of a sudden all these people that apparently use it come out of the wood works and start calling for the taunt to stay on. Seriously where are these players in game that use the frost taunt? I run dungeons daily and have never in all my time seen any tank use it. In pvp I never see anyone use it. Are you all to busy defending it in the forums to actually login and start tanking with it. I personally would love to see some magika frost warden dps in the game wielding a frost staff.

sdtlc

I do

JinMori

Frost staff is not fine it sucks, but i don;t think a passive execute will be enough to put in in par with fire or shock.

Lynx7386

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I think this dead horse needs to be allowed to rest in peace. Frost staff is fine.

I also see that you don't play a MagWarden...

I play a tank warden, and I rather like my frost staff tyvm.

If you want to use the frost staff for dps, just avoid tri-focus and concede to the fact that you're going to have poor results because you're trying to use a tanking weapon in a damage role. It's no different than stamina dps trying to use 1h&shield for damage.

Nobody cared about frost dps until the option was taken away.

brandonv516

Very interesting idea.

WhoThenNow7

I agree. And to help make it more of a dps weapon, here is my suggestion.. enemies should take more damage overall when they have the frost effect on them. Makes sense because everything hurts more when you're cold. It's sad that you don't see ice mages running around.

Savos_Saren

Ice DPS has existed since the beginning of the game... but there wasn’t a class that was viable for it until Wardens came out. There wasn’t many ice-oriented sets, either. (There still isn’t, really.)

But now people have the ability to run sets like Innate Axiom, Ysgramor, Winterborn, etc... to really beef up their ice damage. Loosing out on the tri-focus passive because of a passive taunt really limits anyone who would like to branch out frome fire and lightning damage.

DocFrost72

I came here ready to defend ice staff as a supplemental tank weapon and...tbh, I've never *needed* the heavy attack taunt. If that passive was changed to a slight execute (start increasing damage at 50% health by 5% or so and cap at 10-15% more frost damage by 20% health) and NOTHING ELSE was changed...honestly, it'd be a good change.

Might even cut down on "I taunted?" pugs.

Savos_Saren

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I came here ready to defend ice staff as a supplemental tank weapon and...tbh, I've never *needed* the heavy attack taunt. If that passive was changed to a slight execute (start increasing damage at 50% health by 5% or so and cap at 10-15% more frost damage by 20% health) and NOTHING ELSE was changed...honestly, it'd be a good change.

Might even cut down on "I taunted?" pugs.

Yup. That’s pretty much my vision with it.

Marginis

I actually use the frost staff taunt on a fairly often basis, and, since it's made to be a tanking weapon (to give the destro staff line some variety instead of three types of DPS), there shouldn't be any reason to get rid of the taunt. And like I've said before, if you need to heavy attack, use your other staff. There is bar swapping for a reason.

In summary:

Lynx7386

Marginis wrote: »

I actually use the frost staff taunt on a fairly often basis, and, since it's made to be a tanking weapon (to give the destro staff line some variety instead of three types of DPS), there shouldn't be any reason to get rid of the taunt. And like I've said before, if you need to heavy attack, use your other staff. There is bar swapping for a reason.

In summary:

Agreed. I make frequent use of the heavy taunt.

Just last night for example, selenes web tanking selene. Frost heavy on occasion directed at the archer/healer adds meant I had a steady stream of projectiles coming so I could keep major heroism from shimmering shield going 100% of the time. Combined with minor heroism from heroic slash, I literally had like 80-90% uptime on healing thicket to keep everyone alive (we were running without a healer)


And that is just one of many situations where a free, ranged taunt that restores 4k magicka and gives me a 5k damage shield has proven useful.

Datthaw

Wasted passive. Oh let me just heavy attack these

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I think this dead horse needs to be allowed to rest in peace. Frost staff is fine.

I also see that you don't play a MagWarden...

I play a tank warden, and I rather like my frost staff tyvm.

If you want to use the frost staff for dps, just avoid tri-focus and concede to the fact that you're going to have poor results because you're trying to use a tanking weapon in a damage role. It's no different than stamina dps trying to use 1h&shield for damage.

Nobody cared about frost dps until the option was taken away.

Not true, I have always and still play around with ice blade builds. I don't think you get the argument though, which is funny for someone who is always making threads complaining about skills not working the way you want.

I don't think anyone wants to lose the block buff, just the taunt is useless. Change the taunt addition on heavy to something else.

Skander

Well, not an execute, but at least some passive penetration.

DocFrost72

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I actually use the frost staff taunt on a fairly often basis, and, since it's made to be a tanking weapon (to give the destro staff line some variety instead of three types of DPS), there shouldn't be any reason to get rid of the taunt. And like I've said before, if you need to heavy attack, use your other staff. There is bar swapping for a reason.

In summary:

Agreed. I make frequent use of the heavy taunt.

Just last night for example, selenes web tanking selene. Frost heavy on occasion directed at the archer/healer adds meant I had a steady stream of projectiles coming so I could keep major heroism from shimmering shield going 100% of the time. Combined with minor heroism from heroic slash, I literally had like 80-90% uptime on healing thicket to keep everyone alive (we were running without a healer)


And that is just one of many situations where a free, ranged taunt that restores 4k magicka and gives me a 5k damage shield has proven useful.

Then make it so elemental susceptibility now taunts, and is still free plus gives the enemy major breach.

Ta-daaaaa!

*edited for clarity

Lynx7386

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I actually use the frost staff taunt on a fairly often basis, and, since it's made to be a tanking weapon (to give the destro staff line some variety instead of three types of DPS), there shouldn't be any reason to get rid of the taunt. And like I've said before, if you need to heavy attack, use your other staff. There is bar swapping for a reason.

In summary:

Agreed. I make frequent use of the heavy taunt.

Just last night for example, selenes web tanking selene. Frost heavy on occasion directed at the archer/healer adds meant I had a steady stream of projectiles coming so I could keep major heroism from shimmering shield going 100% of the time. Combined with minor heroism from heroic slash, I literally had like 80-90% uptime on healing thicket to keep everyone alive (we were running without a healer)


And that is just one of many situations where a free, ranged taunt that restores 4k magicka and gives me a 5k damage shield has proven useful.

Elemental susceptibility now taunts, and is still free plus gives the enemy major breach.

Ta-daaaaa!

And now i have to use one of my already overwhelmed skill slots for a ranged taunt.

I don't think people, especially non tanks, understand the value of bar space in this game

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Groupfinder is the only argument you need to realize that putting a taunt on an ice staff was a really questionable move.

Savos_Saren

The question is: how many people are tanking/taunting trials/vet DLC without using SNB? Frost staff only?

Lynx7386

Savos_Saren wrote: »

The question is: how many people are tanking/taunting trials/vet DLC without using SNB? Frost staff only?

There have been a few frost staff only trials tanks done solely as proof of concept, but it typically works better as a supplementary/back bar weapon complimenting a 1h/shield set up.

adriant1978

Magicka tanking should have been added with a new weapon and skill line, such as the often proposed "Alteration Staff", rather than by removing a DPS option.

Lynx7386

adriant1978 wrote: »

Magicka tanking should have been added with a new weapon and skill line, such as the often proposed "Alteration Staff", rather than by removing a DPS option.

A new weapon would have required vastly more work, time, and money to develop (not to mention the need to research 9 traits again on a whole new weapon type for crafters). That's not a fiscally viable investment, especially not without limiting it to a chapter or dlc.

Zenimax took the best option from a business and development standpoint. There are bound to be players that disagree with that option.

DocFrost72

Lynx7386 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I actually use the frost staff taunt on a fairly often basis, and, since it's made to be a tanking weapon (to give the destro staff line some variety instead of three types of DPS), there shouldn't be any reason to get rid of the taunt. And like I've said before, if you need to heavy attack, use your other staff. There is bar swapping for a reason.

In summary:

Agreed. I make frequent use of the heavy taunt.

Just last night for example, selenes web tanking selene. Frost heavy on occasion directed at the archer/healer adds meant I had a steady stream of projectiles coming so I could keep major heroism from shimmering shield going 100% of the time. Combined with minor heroism from heroic slash, I literally had like 80-90% uptime on healing thicket to keep everyone alive (we were running without a healer)


And that is just one of many situations where a free, ranged taunt that restores 4k magicka and gives me a 5k damage shield has proven useful.

Elemental susceptibility now taunts, and is still free plus gives the enemy major breach.

Ta-daaaaa!

And now i have to use one of my already overwhelmed skill slots for a ranged taunt.

I don't think people, especially non tanks, understand the value of bar space in this game

I am operating under the assumption the bolder wasn't aimed at me, feel free to correct me if I was included in that.

Absorb magic, pierce armor, green dragon blood, igneous shield, hardened armor/balance (depending on needs and environement), shield discipline/spell wall.

Unrelenting grip, inner fire (anyone actually morph this? I suppose increased synergy could be nice), wall of frost, choking talons, bone shield/overflowing altar, aggressive warhorn.

(Tag me if you play a different class, I do them all!)

And I would drop inner fire for a taunting, free to cast, minor breach giving ele sus every day of the week.

I guess now I'm curious what you have on your bar that I don't?

Lynx7386

Front bar (shield)
Pierce
Frozen device
Heroic slash
Leeching vines
Shimmering shield
Heading thicket / warhorn

Back bar (frost)
Arctic blast
Blockade
Gripping shards
Ice fortress
Bull netch
Permafrost

Having to slot a ranged taunt (if the heavy attack taunt were removed) would mean giving up cc, healing, or sustain/defense. Not a good decision to make

DocFrost72

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Front bar (shield)
Pierce
Frozen device
Heroic slash
Leeching vines
Shimmering shield
Heading thicket / warhorn

Back bar (frost)
Arctic blast
Blockade
Gripping shards
Ice fortress
Bull netch
Permafrost

Having to slot a ranged taunt (if the heavy attack taunt were removed) would mean giving up cc, healing, or sustain/defense. Not a good decision to make

Now you have me intrigued: why would you need leeching vines if you have an ult gen build focused around spamming trees? Surely you don't need vines with a dedicated healer, a free heal through netch, and polar winds during the downtime.

Maybe vet warrior? But even then you'd need trees or arctic (for the burst) over a 1600/s (granted plus modifiers) heal, or am I missing something? The resource management aspect of it perhaps? In best case scenario, this gives 2500 total resources for a 2700 base cost. Even in light armor the return would be....less than ideal, and for stam you have the netch.

I understand the frustration of having to re-arrange bars, but you'd certainly be gaining more than you lost to slot a ranged taunt you could rely on and block while using.

Lynx7386

Vines is there for sustain. Each time it heals you gain 500 magicka or stamina (whichever is lower). It also helps dps stay alive via minor lifesteal, and helps keep minor toughness from passives up.

The stamina return from bull netch alone isn't ebough to facilitate permablocking, and unlike dragon knights we can't just get a ton of resources back every time we pop an ultimate. I run a hybrid build with nearly 2k magicka recovery, so the cost of keeping vines active is minimal in comparison to the stamina return I get from it, especially on things like AA axes

Ashamray

"passive" execute is an awful concept, it just produces more pvp whine.

Savos_Saren

Ashamray wrote: »

"passive" execute is an awful concept, it just produces more pvp whine.

Then let’s call it “A weak ass active execute from heavy attacks with a frost staff”