PvP on this game is stupid

Thogard

Jeremy wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

You still haven’t posted your class/race or gear. Your CP point disruption may be entirely wrong. How many CP do you have? Are you playing in a CP campaign or no CP?

You’re dying quickly because you don’t understand your class and how to react to what’s coming at you...

Then everyone else I have encountered in Cyrodil must not understand their classes or how to react either - as they all died with near or equal speed. ^^

That seems to be something most of the people in Cyrodil have in common - except for the master PvPers who hang out on the forums of course.

And I have already explained - I have no PvP build to post. I have tried out many different builds - none of which I found to my liking. I'm going to try some kind of "block build" next - as that really does seem to be the only way one can effectively defend themselves in PvP on this game.

That’s because you’re a textbook zergling and no experienced PvPer would ever be caught dead in one of those groups.

I’m done here. These salty PvEers are just too much for me sometimes.

jaws343

[Edited to remove quotes]

Well that's just false. And my templar healer would disagree. I survived and healed through the damage of 3 dks pounding on me for 5 minutes yesterday. Eventually died because I ran out of resources at the wrong time and as a healer I don't have enough damage to provide sufficient pressure, but again, that was after 5 minutes.

And I am sure everyone disagreeing with you here have all witnessed tanks holding off 10 or more oponents. An important life lesson is just because you haven't seen it or are unable to do it yourself doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I mean, even on my non healers I survive with vigor, rally, dodge rolling and tactical blocking.

And if you really want to have your mind blown, I run a sorc with only crit surge as my heal. And I survive outnumbered, as do so many other competent players.

Tarrocan

Jeremy wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Practice + Skill (From Practice) = Not Dead.

Nah.

You are going to die no matter how much practice and skill you have.

Why u think u cant be good if u have practice ? I mean that's the most logical thing in the world

Animus-ESO

My one weakness in this game is other players killing me until Im dead. Other then that I am an amazing pvper.

Lucky28

ZOS did some serious damage to solo pvp. Which is very bad for the longevity of the game. Cyrodiil used to offer many different experiences all of which where enjoyable for different reasons. since morrowind you take a resource and get rolled by 50+ players... great, tons of fun.

i really do miss how vibrant Cyrodiil used to be. it always had it's problems sure, but it was a hell of a lot more entertaining.

Slick_007

my numbers suck. and im a pve build so no crit resist. but you get the right ability to hit at the right time and the other guy is going down. theres more than numbers involved here.

DoctorESO

Jeremy wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

Also to you previous point the best way to survive fighting many people isn’t to stack resist and mist form it’s by killing them. You have to use your environment to line of sight select targets and kill them one by one . Keep your buffs up and make sure to heal not just spam mist form , it would also help to know what class you are playing

You're making my point for me.

It's all about who has the best offense and who ganks who first.

This game needs better defensive options. Not all of us enjoy an offensive style of play.

I get your point.

But it has been said, in sport and in war and in life in general, that the best defense is a good offense. Action is always faster than reaction.

Leandor

5 pages and still going? OP expects to be allowed a pure cancer build, being able to survive multiple enemies focussing on him.

We worked 4 years to come to a point where they finally don't exist anymore.

What's there to say other then "well, I'm glad that pvp in this game doesn't suit your needs, since otherwise I wouldn't be playing this game"?

Vapirko

Jeremy wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

You still haven’t posted your class/race or gear. Your CP point disruption may be entirely wrong. How many CP do you have? Are you playing in a CP campaign or no CP?

You’re dying quickly because you don’t understand your class and how to react to what’s coming at you...

Then everyone else I have encountered in Cyrodil must not understand their classes or how to react either - as they all died with near or equal speed. ^^

That seems to be something most of the people in Cyrodil have in common - except for the master PvPers who hang out on the forums of course.

And I have already explained - I have no PvP build to post. I have tried out many different builds - none of which I found to my liking. I'm going to try some kind of "block build" next - as that really does seem to be the only way one can effectively defend themselves in PvP on this game.

That is correct. PvP is very unforgiving and the majority of players do not understand how to react. For example snares and counter snare abilities are at the core of PvP in this game they are a deadly tool. But get into a 1v1 or or even a small 1vX and toss out a snare on people and most of them just go full on defense/panic mode. You rarely see a stamina player pop shuffle or forward momentum, instead they try to turn and hobble away. The better players either run solo, small scale or have their own 8-10 person groups and are out of the main zerg train path. However this game also promotes zerging so sometimes even the best players can get laid out somewhat quickly, but that’s just the danger of fighting out numbered. I’m also starting to think this is a troll thread or you’re just looking to be validated. I’ve been a PvPer for maybe 2 years now? And let me tell you that for a long time I really sucked and died as you described, I couldn’t imagine that there wasn’t some secret set or trick to surviving and that in fact it was just practice, a sound knowledge of all classes so you can respond to their set of abilities and finding what the right class/gear combo was for me. I got very salty at a lot of people, hated them for telling me to l2p or admitting I knew nothing was the start to getting better. And although I still get salty, cause thats just me lol, it wasn’t until I said *** it I kind of suck at this game and started really trying to tackle each problem and mistake I was making one at a time that I started to get better. There are still plenty of people who can trash me 1v1 but I’m now also capable of winning the majority of my encounters including a decent 1vX here and there. I have fun trying solo keep defenses against 8 or 9 people off hours and do succeed soemtiems (until they come back with more). The ONLY thing that’s changed is my understanding of the flow of battle and how to respond with the abilities that I have to they abilities that they have, what are the limits of my build and what does it excel at.

DoctorESO

Biro123

I think what I'm seeing here is that the op seems to want to solo with a group healing build...?

The thing is, in a very basic sense, to PvP, your 'unit' needs to be able to deal damage, to mitigate damage, to heal the damage taken and to be able to move.
If your unit consists of only you(IE solo), then you really need to have all of those in one package -otherwise it will not work. Within that, you can still lean it towards healing, or damage, or tankiness, but you cannot completely ignore the others.

If your 'unit' is a group, you can focus more strongly on your chosen archetype, as long as others in your group are doing the other roles, allowing you to neglect certain aspects more to become stronger at your main role. But you still need to be able to survive for a time - longer than the attacker. There are no taunts controlling aggro, so yes part of being a healer in PvP is also having the tools to mitigate the incoming damage enough to allow your heals to keep you up.

Basically you're doing it wrong.

And then your attitude comes across with this strange, strange view that where you have found something that you fail at, you seem to think you know better than those who succeed at it.. and rather than choosing to learn from them you choose to disagree/argue with them.
You will never learn unless this attitude changes.

usmguy1234

This is mainly due to champion points. Damage scales better than healing does. Plus defile. Defile should be locked behind ultimates and everyone should have access. Ultimates should cost much more than they do- I'm looking at you incap. Sets like earthgore and zaan should have never existed. The list goes on...

amir412

Well, having good stats doesnt mean u will do good in combat.
I am pure PVP player, if ill just slot the best gear for DPS, will i be doing high DPS like a guy who is exp in PVE?
Or a guy that copy a streamer/ youtuber build, will he perform the same the streamer did?
Dont think so.

Ranger209

Jeremy wrote: »

No what I'm saying is you are going to go splat when jumped by four equal opponents.

And I mean splat. You'll be lucky if you last more than a couple of seconds.

Let me put this to you in PvE terms. Have you ever soloed a 4 man dungeon? How long did it take? Ever do the same dungeon with a group of 4 players that were all as good as you? How long did it take?

In PvP with equal skilled opponents a fight should end in a stalement, or in 100 duels you would win 50 and your opponent would win 50. If you are fighting 2 equally skilled opponents as yourself they should kill you in 10 seconds most times. If you are fighting 3 equally skilled opponents they should kill you in roughly 5 seconds. If you are fighting 4 equally skilled opponents they should kill you in about 2 seconds. If any of these are not true then you are not fighting equally skilled opponents. If the fights with those numbers are lasting longer than that then you are probably more skilled than they are on average. If they are lasting less than that then they are probably more skilled than you on average.

I don't see the logic in thinking that you can defy those numbers fighting equal opponents. If you had to fight against 4 other versions of yourself how long do you expect to last? Would you be arguing that PvP is lame because you can't kill anyone if the 4 other versions of yourself couldn't kill the single version of yourself or if it took way to long to do?

Edit: And this is with you getting the jump on them, if they get the jump on you short of turtling up with block or shields, or dodge roll chaining/LOS'ing the fights should be even shorter. Using these tactics should prolong the fights, but with 4 equal opponents against you, you will be hard pressed to ever mount an offensive attack.

LittlePinkDot

Roll dodging is as good as block. Also stealth helps alot, particularly with cloak. I choose to fight or not. Nobody attacks me if they cant see me. I have the luxury of cherry picking.
Stealth makes it so much easier to get to far places on the map without dying on the way there.

Waffennacht

I see a few issues.

One issue is that it's just a fact some builds do not work in PvP. Your standard PvE healer, for example, won't be worth Jack in PvP. - the heals are halved, and you're a primary Target, combined with a lack of combat effectiveness, they'll go down quickly. (I don't know of a single PvE healer with Impen, nor big Shields, nor blocking, nor roll Dodge)

So right off the bat you need a PvP build. So, when OP says something like, "healers need to be X builds" he is essentially correct because not everything works in PvP

Another issue is group sizes. 1v4 usually won't turn out well lol, and even then it could just be zerg fests. If numbers are an issue (like if you're just getting zerged) try BGs, while premades etc will probably give a similar experience, you're more likely to get a decent match.

montjie

lag
"cancer builds"
cowardly players
zergmentality
nonrewarding
and so many more..

Out of all those points to choose from, you go with "I die when multiple good players focus me" as your reason why ESO PVP is stupid???

Jeremy wrote: »

When I have more fun fighting the PvE mobs in Cyrodil than I do actual other players then there's a problem with the quality of this game's PvP.

No there isnt. Dont get me wrong there is plenty wrong with ESO PVP. But none of what youre saying has a place on that list.

But if you like 'fighting' npcs on your healer build so much there are always the dolmens of alikr where you can go HAM with healing springs

RighteousBacon

Jeremy wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

Also to you previous point the best way to survive fighting many people isn’t to stack resist and mist form it’s by killing them. You have to use your environment to line of sight select targets and kill them one by one . Keep your buffs up and make sure to heal not just spam mist form , it would also help to know what class you are playing

You're making my point for me.

It's all about who has the best offense and who ganks who first.

This game needs better defensive options. Not all of us enjoy an offensive style of play.

Look...if you’re looking for advice here you need to tell us what Armor sets you are wearing, what your stats are, what your cp is, and how long you’ve been playing. I’ll give you advice after I here that stuff, but right now it just seems like you’re complaining that this game’s pvp is too hard for you. It takes time to get good.

RighteousBacon

Jeremy wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

Also to you previous point the best way to survive fighting many people isn’t to stack resist and mist form it’s by killing them. You have to use your environment to line of sight select targets and kill them one by one . Keep your buffs up and make sure to heal not just spam mist form , it would also help to know what class you are playing

You're making my point for me.

It's all about who has the best offense and who ganks who first.

This game needs better defensive options. Not all of us enjoy an offensive style of play.

So you want to kill people by holding block? Or do you even want to kill people? I’m not understanding what you are trying to say

I just want to have fun. Whether I kill people or not isn't the goal.

Killing people isn't much fun if its boring and just involves slaughtering someone in a matter of seconds. I enjoy the actual back and forth of combat - not quickly killing someone before they can react - which seems to be what PvP on this game amounts to.

So what you're saying is that you don't enjoy PvP because it is not armwrestling?

In a matter of speaking , I suppose.

It's not fun because it's always so overwhelming one way or the other. There is no back and forth or actual feel of combat. It's just pew pew your dead or pew pew I'm dead. Basically splat, splat, splat.

As I said - even when my group is winning and we're taking keeps and I'm killing people it's lame. Why anyone could find it fun I"ll never understand. But I guess many do.

Well if you’re with a group and killing people of course it’s gonna be as you said “splat”. It’s called zerging and it’s why a lot of players in this game challenge themselves by separating themselves from these groups and try to “1vX” or play in small groups of 2 or 3. It is harder to play the game this way but if you try it you will likely find that “back and forth” fighting that you’re looking for.

RighteousBacon

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

I started having fun in PVP when I joined up with a PVP guild that ran organized raid. They knew what they were doing and so I survived much longer when I played with them, felt like I could contribute more and more effectively, and managed to learn a lot about PVP in the process.

I'm still not all that great in a 1v1 fight because I played a group healer for a long time, but I've really enjoyed the PVP experience - which I never wouldve believed when I started ESO straight out of single-player Skyrim.

If its worth it to you, stick it out, maybe find a good PVP guild and practice. PVP has a steep learning curve. But if you know its not worth the time and effort for you, thats totally fine for you. I tried PVP and eventually learned to like it but I dont expect the same to be true of everyone. So people experience it, learn how to do it, and still dont like it much (same for PVE too.)

Usually in PvP on games I create a defensive or mobile healer who specializes on assisting allies and avoiding death if I'm engaged. That seems impossible on this game because offensive strategies dominate.

That's my issue.

Ive got a group healer that I play with my group and I, well let me be completely honest here, I zerg-surf with when I'm not with my raid. She's a MagDK with a resto staff, so pretty tanky and good at group healing, but not as healing oriented as a templar.

In the early days when I did a lot of zerg-surfing, I got tanky. I mean, Plague Doctor and 40k health because that let me survive better. Healing non-organized players (the zerg) takes a lot of alertness and awareness of how the battle is going. I died a lot while I was learning when to jump off the walls, when we were gonna get overrun anyway, and when we were,winning so I could press forward. Generally, I still died in a 1v1 fight, because PVP healing is more about healing proactively instead of sheer burst.

From that experience, I learned how to move on the battlefield, how to heal and not overextend, and got to the point that I'm now in light armor again, 28k health and doing even better than I was in my newbie Plague Doctor. But when I was new, I really needed that health cushion, in order to live long enough to understand the battle, what tactics worked and what tactics didn't.

If you want to be a defensive or mobile healer, I really recommend looking for a PVP group or guild. I started to learn to heal disorganized players. Healing organized groups is much, much more fun and easier since you are supporting and healing your group and they are helping to defend you. Organized groups always need good healers and IMO its more rewarding than healing the zerg.

This reinforces my complaint. Any skilled offensive player is going to be able to eat someone for breakfast if they attempt to play defensive and keep themselves alive through heals unless they have an organized team to depend on. Because there really is no effective defensive strategy that I have found or seen that involves healing or defense. Both are just too easy to counter by a well-executed offense.

Maybe before they nerfed immovable I might could have came up with something using an ice staff to block with combined with Desert Rose and Syrabane. That was something I was considering. But I really just don't see that working either as they would likely just stun and burst dead..

Gosh the more I read the more I understand your playstyle. Look, there are plenty of builds out there that can be slapped on a Templar and used to tank in a 1v1 easily, i’ve Even seen them tank up to 5 people. The thing is, this game’s pvp does support damage set ups to those of tanks because quite frankly no one likes it when someone just stands there holding block while they’re team of ambush spamming nightblades take the attacker down. In this game, if you STAND STILL and spam a heal button you aren’t gonna survive against countless enemies. That would be “just a numbers game”. Pvp in this game actually allows skill to be a factor in combat

Torbschka

In short:

Comes to pvp, got bis ass besten, cries in forum.

Seriously, what u say is wrong. Why can I tank 5x people and kill them and u dont? Just because U have no clue how, doesnt meant it isnt possible...

Kel

This thread by the op is just confirmation of something I've known to be true for a long time....players don't like PvP because they can't handle dying. MMO's, especially on the PvE side, has the mind set of dying being the worst thing. One wipe in a dungeon, watch everyone drop group. They take that mindset into PvP and can't understand why they get thier teeth knocked out. It's amazing.
Even the best players get caught out once in awhile. And here you are walking into Cyrodiil thinking you should somehow be unkillable by PvP full timers who do this all day/everyday.
If there was a reward for most ridiculous post on these forms....well, you might not win, but this would at lest be in the top 3.

technohic

jabrone77 wrote: »

This thread by the op is just confirmation of something I've known to be true for a long time....players don't like PvP because they can't handle dying. MMO's, especially on the PvE side, has the mind set of dying being the worst thing. One wipe in a dungeon, watch everyone drop group. They take that mindset into PvP and can't understand why they get thier teeth knocked out. It's amazing.
Even the best players get caught out once in awhile. And here you are walking into Cyrodiil thinking you should somehow be unkillable by PvP full timers who do this all day/everyday.
If there was a reward for most ridiculous post on these forms....well, you might not win, but this would at lest be in the top 3.

I think you might be on to something. In PvE, part of the challenge has always been to avoid losing lives ever since Mario Bros and before. Die too many times and its game over. Have to start from scratch.

In PvP, the entire point is for someone to die. If you aint dying, you aint trying.

Moglijuana

I would link a bunch of videos of me healing myself through a bunch of opponents and then killing them...but I doubt it'll make a difference.

It’s a shame seeing so many good players offering advice only to get shot down by OP who is unwilling to listen and learn. Stay in PvE land mah dude. The AI die to naked fists and are so much more fun than pvp. /s

CerebralNoise

Like other's have said, in this game BiS gear does not automatically equal success. The learning curve of PvP in this game is VERY steep. You have to know your class / passives and how they work together as well as target priority, using line of sight, kiting opponents, and know the counter's to other classes.

I've been playing for a year now and have just started to figure out how to put all those things together on a stamblade. One of the biggest things I've learned is that LOS is your largest source of damage mitigation, not your stats.

Caleb_Kadesh

The PvP learning curve is nowhere near as steep as EvE Online. (Which, by the way, has the best PvP experience of any multiplayer game)

But it's sandbox nature does require more learning experience than some other MMO's.

The best advice ever given to me in EveOnline, and I believe it applies here as well, is die often, play with other that Pvp well, ask them for advice and then listen to them. There are many guilds that want to help you succeed and ultimately enjoy PvP.

Start in Kyne with a level 10 character and learn what each of your skills do. Ask in guild (voice chat hopefully) what you can do to improve. Duel with folks in your guild that want to be helpful. Play BattleGrounds and run with groups in Cyrodiil.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed several posts that were baiting. Please remember that comments that are baiting like "L2P" aren't constructive and are against our forum rules. If posts cannot remain constructive and on topic, we will consider closing the thread. Thank you for your understanding.

Lichbourne90

Agree with the arguments above or not ESO has very good PvP despite it's downsides. A new player in Cyrodil will have a very hard time until they learn the basics. You will continue to see yourself and others dropping like flies as u put it, but once u are more prepared the fighting is much better. Good groups fighting each other are fun and engaging. Solo PvP is HARD. Almost impossible for the new player. As others have stated make friends and practice. It gets better with skill.

Gargis

The pvp in this game is bad, unless you enjoy the FPS play style. Of all the games I've played, Dark Age, Warhammer, Rift, WOW, etc. This one is the worst.

There is no reasonable immunity to CC. You can be CC over and over in the span of seconds by the same skill. If there is a CD its so short that its moot.

Its that way because the engine is bad so ppl need to die fast. You have bad lag for a reason. You have long load screens for a reason. You have unpredictable DC's for a reason.

Its essentially a AE proc fest by monster helms. Classic example of no independence between pvp and pve skills. There is no good pvp game out that atm, so whatever. Maybe CU if its not vaporware, but we will see.

Tzayad

OP is so whiny and ignorant it's hurting my brain.

If you want a defensive healer set up that wont die to less than 4 people beating on you non-stop, try this:

MagTemplar
5pc heavy Seducers - On body, all sturdy
5pc Wizards Riposte - 3 jewels, double 1H/S (could run transmutation here too)
Tri-stat food, tri-stat glyphs on big pieces.
Vampire

I can spell it out further if you need your hand held more. But I don't think you've come here to learn anything, you have your mind made up, and seem to know it all already. You've just made this topic to *** and moan, and it should just be locked at this point.


If you want something that doesn't rely on blocking, a magicka nightblade healer set up might work for you, heal from the shadows, and just never be seen/always have a way out.