Monetisation of New Systems

Adernath

... and this gifting system in general looks very fishy for me.

For example, if I am lazy but would have enough money to throw out the window, I could just buy something from the store and offer it for in-game gold or items.

Juju_beans

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

MadLarkin wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Poor devs, being forced by the publishers and shareholders to butcher their own work just to make a few extra bucks for the ***holes with the money. Like, none of this money goes to hiring new people, to upgrading the servers, to producing more content, it's all just about enriching the already rich but hey that's this late capitalism for us.

The beauty of capitalism is that people can also choose to tell them to shove their business model where the sun doesn't shine and take their money elsewhere.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, too many howl and stick around. Vote with your wallet is one of the best ways to convey dissatisfaction. Apparently that's not happening. Easier and less painful to shout about it than actually move on.

From publicly traded game companies, Activision Blizzard and Ubisoft...more than 50% of their revenue is coming from micro transactions.

Loot boxes started off as a way for companies to make money from free to play games.

It was a financial windfall and so got incorporated into most online games today and provide substantial amounts of revenue dollars.

Have a link for that? Not doubting you but I'm interested in just how far and how insidious this has become. TIA!

Oh, and I agree. I can't think of any MMO that I am familiar with (granted it's not a huge list and I am a bit picky as to my definition of MMO...WoW, SWTOR, LoTRO etc.) that hasn't gone down this path.

Here ya go:

https://www.vg247.com/2018/02/09/activision-blizzard-made-4-billion-microtransactions-2017-half-revenue/
https://gamerant.com/ubisoft-microtransaction-sales/

Some more hard numbers on gaming monetization:
https://www.statista.com/topics/3436/gaming-monetization/

anitajoneb17_ESO

heaven13 wrote: »

Some people just can't see the other side of the argument. Those of us who dislike crown crates and spending more than the cost of the game itself on a single cosmetic items are just "greedy for wanting everything" and "selfish" because honestly if we don't like it we shouldn't buy it (never mind that a good portion of us DON'T) and should be perfectly happy to watch as ZOS puts yet more and more content behind more of a paywall.

We're not saying you should be happy. We're just saying it shouldn't make you unhappy. Not THAT unhappy.

DieAlteHexe

Juju_beans wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

MadLarkin wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Poor devs, being forced by the publishers and shareholders to butcher their own work just to make a few extra bucks for the ***holes with the money. Like, none of this money goes to hiring new people, to upgrading the servers, to producing more content, it's all just about enriching the already rich but hey that's this late capitalism for us.

The beauty of capitalism is that people can also choose to tell them to shove their business model where the sun doesn't shine and take their money elsewhere.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, too many howl and stick around. Vote with your wallet is one of the best ways to convey dissatisfaction. Apparently that's not happening. Easier and less painful to shout about it than actually move on.

From publicly traded game companies, Activision Blizzard and Ubisoft...more than 50% of their revenue is coming from micro transactions.

Loot boxes started off as a way for companies to make money from free to play games.

It was a financial windfall and so got incorporated into most online games today and provide substantial amounts of revenue dollars.

Have a link for that? Not doubting you but I'm interested in just how far and how insidious this has become. TIA!

Oh, and I agree. I can't think of any MMO that I am familiar with (granted it's not a huge list and I am a bit picky as to my definition of MMO...WoW, SWTOR, LoTRO etc.) that hasn't gone down this path.

Here ya go:

https://www.vg247.com/2018/02/09/activision-blizzard-made-4-billion-microtransactions-2017-half-revenue/
https://gamerant.com/ubisoft-microtransaction-sales/

Some more hard numbers on gaming monetization:
https://www.statista.com/topics/3436/gaming-monetization/

Heroic! Thank you so much.

Off to read up on this.

ETA: Those numbers. Holy-you-know-what. Well, that's that then. This is basically a license to print money so I don't think there's much hope that this is just a "phase".

Billion. I knew it was big business and dev costs were astronomical but this is truly astounding in scale and scope. <

Thanks again for the links.

johnnified

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Also, Turelus you forgot to mention that they have now also gone from selling Crown Store exclusive motifs, to Crown Crate exclusive motifs cut up in pieces and sold to us in parts via the gambling system (good luck trying to catch them all!).

?? Would you please explain what you're referring to ? I haven't seen any motif being included in crates... is that new on PTS ?

You must not have been around for any of the crown crate seasons where you can get Motif Books from the crown crates. How about you get on to the live game and look at the rewards of the current crates. Motifs can be gotten with 200 crown gems.

johnnified

Carbonised wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Valkyn_Eltrys wrote: »

Patch 5.0.0

You can now purchase additional ability effects, texture packs, and unlock addons from crown store!

I'm honestly expecting that if they ever do the spell crafting system now.

They haven't added a single new system in a long time that wasn't tied heavily into the crown store.

Even jewelrycrafting is tied to the store, as many people will pay good money for those research scrolls simply to be the first ones to bypass the trait research time and do jewelrycrafting (inb4 "first ring & necklace all traits researched" forum post pops up)

Yeah, only it will take them a max of a month to get all those traits learned. They have cooldowns. If you use a 30day or 14 day scrolls you have to wait 30 days or 14 days to use the next one.

anitajoneb17_ESO

johnnified wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Also, Turelus you forgot to mention that they have now also gone from selling Crown Store exclusive motifs, to Crown Crate exclusive motifs cut up in pieces and sold to us in parts via the gambling system (good luck trying to catch them all!).

?? Would you please explain what you're referring to ? I haven't seen any motif being included in crates... is that new on PTS ?

You must not have been around for any of the crown crate seasons where you can get Motif Books from the crown crates. How about you get on to the live game and look at the rewards of the current crates. Motifs can be gotten with 200 crown gems.

Shoud have written "crown-crate-exclusive". And that will/would be the first time. Noone cares if there's a motif in the crates as long as it is reasonably obtainable ingame.

anitajoneb17_ESO

johnnified wrote: »

Yeah, only it will take them a max of a month to get all those traits learned. They have cooldowns. If you use a 30day or 14 day scrolls you have to wait 30 days or 14 days to use the next one.

Nope. They have no cooldown.

Juju_beans

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

MadLarkin wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Poor devs, being forced by the publishers and shareholders to butcher their own work just to make a few extra bucks for the ***holes with the money. Like, none of this money goes to hiring new people, to upgrading the servers, to producing more content, it's all just about enriching the already rich but hey that's this late capitalism for us.

The beauty of capitalism is that people can also choose to tell them to shove their business model where the sun doesn't shine and take their money elsewhere.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, too many howl and stick around. Vote with your wallet is one of the best ways to convey dissatisfaction. Apparently that's not happening. Easier and less painful to shout about it than actually move on.

From publicly traded game companies, Activision Blizzard and Ubisoft...more than 50% of their revenue is coming from micro transactions.

Loot boxes started off as a way for companies to make money from free to play games.

It was a financial windfall and so got incorporated into most online games today and provide substantial amounts of revenue dollars.

Have a link for that? Not doubting you but I'm interested in just how far and how insidious this has become. TIA!

Oh, and I agree. I can't think of any MMO that I am familiar with (granted it's not a huge list and I am a bit picky as to my definition of MMO...WoW, SWTOR, LoTRO etc.) that hasn't gone down this path.

Here ya go:

https://www.vg247.com/2018/02/09/activision-blizzard-made-4-billion-microtransactions-2017-half-revenue/
https://gamerant.com/ubisoft-microtransaction-sales/

Some more hard numbers on gaming monetization:
https://www.statista.com/topics/3436/gaming-monetization/

Heroic! Thank you so much.

Off to read up on this.

ETA: Those numbers. Holy-you-know-what. Well, that's that then. This is basically a license to print money so I don't think there's much hope that this is just a "phase".

Billion. I knew it was big business and dev costs were astronomical but this is truly astounding in scale and scope. <

Thanks again for the links.

Yuppers..once you see those kinds of numbers you know it's not a passing fad or short lived trend.
It's here to stay my friend. Best bet is to learn to live with it and not let it bother you.

I'm eso+ so I get 1500 crowns a month. I save and spend those crowns on things like mounts, pets, costumes and saved up to get the portable banker. I don't buy crowns ever. I will ooh and aaah at the the crown store stuff and that's where it ends.

DieAlteHexe

Juju_beans wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

MadLarkin wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Poor devs, being forced by the publishers and shareholders to butcher their own work just to make a few extra bucks for the ***holes with the money. Like, none of this money goes to hiring new people, to upgrading the servers, to producing more content, it's all just about enriching the already rich but hey that's this late capitalism for us.

The beauty of capitalism is that people can also choose to tell them to shove their business model where the sun doesn't shine and take their money elsewhere.

Absolutely. Unfortunately, too many howl and stick around. Vote with your wallet is one of the best ways to convey dissatisfaction. Apparently that's not happening. Easier and less painful to shout about it than actually move on.

From publicly traded game companies, Activision Blizzard and Ubisoft...more than 50% of their revenue is coming from micro transactions.

Loot boxes started off as a way for companies to make money from free to play games.

It was a financial windfall and so got incorporated into most online games today and provide substantial amounts of revenue dollars.

Have a link for that? Not doubting you but I'm interested in just how far and how insidious this has become. TIA!

Oh, and I agree. I can't think of any MMO that I am familiar with (granted it's not a huge list and I am a bit picky as to my definition of MMO...WoW, SWTOR, LoTRO etc.) that hasn't gone down this path.

Here ya go:

https://www.vg247.com/2018/02/09/activision-blizzard-made-4-billion-microtransactions-2017-half-revenue/
https://gamerant.com/ubisoft-microtransaction-sales/

Some more hard numbers on gaming monetization:
https://www.statista.com/topics/3436/gaming-monetization/

Heroic! Thank you so much.

Off to read up on this.

ETA: Those numbers. Holy-you-know-what. Well, that's that then. This is basically a license to print money so I don't think there's much hope that this is just a "phase".

Billion. I knew it was big business and dev costs were astronomical but this is truly astounding in scale and scope. <

Thanks again for the links.

Yuppers..once you see those kinds of numbers you know it's not a passing fad or short lived trend.
It's here to stay my friend. Best bet is to learn to live with it and not let it bother you.

I'm eso+ so I get 1500 crowns a month. I save and spend those crowns on things like mounts, pets, costumes and saved up to get the portable banker. I don't buy crowns ever. I will ooh and aaah at the the crown store stuff and that's where it ends.

Sensible. I do buy crowns when the spirit moves me. I have no vices left anymore so this is it (this game). I do think that some of the pricing is nuts but I'm free to say: Nunh unh, too dear for me. My weaknesses? Mounts (although not that many since most of 'em are too...flashy, I guess would be the term), costumes and occasionally a dye set (usually tied to seasonal festivities).

Oh and motifs if they aren't StupidPrice. Won't need to be doing that for awhile given this event. I've got motifs coming out my ears and have still made a fortune selling.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Juju_beans wrote: »

Yuppers..once you see those kinds of numbers you know it's not a passing fad or short lived trend.
It's here to stay my friend. Best bet is to learn to live with it and not let it bother you.

... and that's where I "defend" ZOS. If everyone in the market does that, then they have to do it too, else their investors will leave for greener pastures. It's not "some people" being greedy, it's a whole system. It's there because it is frighteningly efficient.

Juju_beans wrote: »

I'm eso+ so I get 1500 crowns a month. I save and spend those crowns on things like mounts, pets, costumes and saved up to get the portable banker. I don't buy crowns ever. I will ooh and aaah at the the crown store stuff and that's where it ends.

Lol... same here ! But I find it comfortable. I don't find myself hesitating and debating with temptation every month.

Franieck

Well said. I don't have much against putting them on the crown store. What frustrates me is how aggressive they are with marketing. I should feel good about a purchase. Instead the feeling that I get is that I'm being squeezed dry. Now, crown store items, despite their unacceptable high prices are still light years ahead of atrocious crown crates. If the motif being locked behing crown crates turns out to be true, I will have lost all my faith in ZoS.

Jhalin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

MadLarkin wrote: »

There is a lot of value (if you will) in being able to place a dollar amount on "the complete experience" for a game. With ESO, that dollar amount continues to skyrocket, and I don't find that to be an acceptable way of treating one's customers.

Imagine you go to DisneyLand for a day. You have the entire park available and all activities are included in the day ticket.
But the bottle of Pepsi costs an outrageous 20 dollars !
Now you can either :
- spend the whole day complaining and raging at this obviously predatory price, write to the director, try to start a consumers' protest...
- Or you can bring your own coke, walk past the café and enjoy your day.

That's up to you...

Funny you should make that comparison, because it’s an accurate one, but not in the way you’re framing it.


Imagine you go to DisneyLand for a day. You have the entire park available and all activities are included in the day ticket.
But the bottle of Pepsi costs an outrageous 20 dollars !
Now you can either :
- Go the entire day in the heat without a drink because the parks ban you from bringing in your own drinks. You don’t need a drink, but it sure as hell would make the day less arduous under the sun while you’re trying to have fun.
- Or spend the immensely overpriced and unreasonable $20 to avoid scenario 1, under duress, knowing the park only gets away with this pricing because they don’t give park goers another option

Cpt_Teemo

Seraphayel wrote: »

They just want to squeeze out money of every possible aspect of the game.

I really really really don't like this. Why is the nice stuff Crown Store related? They don't add any new mounts or nice things to the base game that you can unlock or achieve, everything goes straight to the Crown Store. Why even ESO+? It already feels like a F2P game with all the stuff you can buy in the shop. And it won't get any better, it will get worse.

I really don't like this massive monetizing aspect of the game. It's just lame and disappointing for every loyal player.

Sounds like Swtor

DieAlteHexe

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

They just want to squeeze out money of every possible aspect of the game.

I really really really don't like this. Why is the nice stuff Crown Store related? They don't add any new mounts or nice things to the base game that you can unlock or achieve, everything goes straight to the Crown Store. Why even ESO+? It already feels like a F2P game with all the stuff you can buy in the shop. And it won't get any better, it will get worse.

I really don't like this massive monetizing aspect of the game. It's just lame and disappointing for every loyal player.

Sounds like Swtor

Sounds like all the "biggies". SWTOR does some things I wish ESO would do but it's still what it is. I guess it's just a matter of degrees anymore.

SGT_Wolfe101st

Just for the record and there have been lots of comments, but ZeniMax, Bethesda, and all of the subsidiaries are privately held companies. There aren't any share holders to please, at least not in the traditional sense. They have investors that do like to have a return, but as others have posted they are printing money with the Crown $tore model. So before the next comment states share holder this and share holder that, there aren't any. Now let that sink in for a bit. Valued at 2.5B USD and they don't a produce tangible good. They create pixels, that once created can be reproduced and distributed forever, without additional cost or commodity investment.

Jhalin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

Yuppers..once you see those kinds of numbers you know it's not a passing fad or short lived trend.
It's here to stay my friend. Best bet is to learn to live with it and not let it bother you.

... and that's where I "defend" ZOS. If everyone in the market does that, then they have to do it too, else their investors will leave for greener pastures. It's not "some people" being greedy, it's a whole system. It's there because it is frighteningly efficient.

Juju_beans wrote: »

I'm eso+ so I get 1500 crowns a month. I save and spend those crowns on things like mounts, pets, costumes and saved up to get the portable banker. I don't buy crowns ever. I will ooh and aaah at the the crown store stuff and that's where it ends.

Lol... same here ! But I find it comfortable. I don't find myself hesitating and debating with temptation every month.

ZOS is a private company, it doesn’t have any publicly traded stocks.

DieAlteHexe

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Just for the record and there have been lots of comments, but ZeniMax, Bethesda, and all of the subsidiaries are privately held companies. There aren't any share holders to please, at least not in the traditional sense. They have investors that do like to have a return, but as others have posted they are printing money with the Crown $tore model. So before the next comment states share holder this and share holder that, there aren't any. Now let that sink in for a bit. Valued at 2.5B USD and they don't a produce tangible good. They create pixels, that once created can be reproduced and distributed forever, without additional cost or commodity investment.

Alrighty. I sit corrected. The investors then. Same diff, point stands.

I don't have an issue with the "selling pixels" thing. Movies are similar and less worth the money to me anyway (rather spend that money on books). It's a huge business now and whether it's shareholders, investors, banks, whomever, they will want ROI and the beancounters will applaud anything that brings more in.

Smokewood

If everyone would just refuse to buy the micro transactions they would either just stop making games or go back to the subscription model.....

It's not just MMOs though, it's all games.

Here's a new wrestling game. Oh you want so and so wrestler to use... that will be an extra $3.99 please....

anitajoneb17_ESO

Jhalin wrote: »

Imagine you go to DisneyLand for a day. You have the entire park available and all activities are included in the day ticket.
But the bottle of Pepsi costs an outrageous 20 dollars !
Now you can either :
- Go the entire day in the heat without a drink because the parks ban you from bringing in your own drinks. You don’t need a drink, but it sure as hell would make the day less arduous under the sun while you’re trying to have fun.
- Or spend the immensely overpriced and unreasonable $20 to avoid scenario 1, under duress, knowing the park only gets away with this pricing because they don’t give park goers another option

In fact your comment is very representative of what I hear from players who complain about the crown store.
You insist on the price of Pepsi being outrageous, and claim that you're drying out to death in the heat, because of that price that you don't want to pay. Completely disregarding that there are water fountains at every corner in the entire park. Because you want Pepsi and not water... like children...

anitajoneb17_ESO

Jhalin wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

Yuppers..once you see those kinds of numbers you know it's not a passing fad or short lived trend.
It's here to stay my friend. Best bet is to learn to live with it and not let it bother you.

... and that's where I "defend" ZOS. If everyone in the market does that, then they have to do it too, else their investors will leave for greener pastures. It's not "some people" being greedy, it's a whole system. It's there because it is frighteningly efficient.

Juju_beans wrote: »

I'm eso+ so I get 1500 crowns a month. I save and spend those crowns on things like mounts, pets, costumes and saved up to get the portable banker. I don't buy crowns ever. I will ooh and aaah at the the crown store stuff and that's where it ends.

Lol... same here ! But I find it comfortable. I don't find myself hesitating and debating with temptation every month.

ZOS is a private company, it doesn’t have any publicly traded stocks.

You don't need to have publicly traded stocks to need capital, loans and financing. Investors, in short.

Carbonised

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Just for the record and there have been lots of comments, but ZeniMax, Bethesda, and all of the subsidiaries are privately held companies. There aren't any share holders to please, at least not in the traditional sense. They have investors that do like to have a return, but as others have posted they are printing money with the Crown $tore model. So before the next comment states share holder this and share holder that, there aren't any. Now let that sink in for a bit. Valued at 2.5B USD and they don't a produce tangible good. They create pixels, that once created can be reproduced and distributed forever, without additional cost or commodity investment.

Alrighty. I sit corrected. The investors then. Same diff, point stands.

I don't have an issue with the "selling pixels" thing. Movies are similar and less worth the money to me anyway (rather spend that money on books). It's a huge business now and whether it's shareholders, investors, banks, whomever, they will want ROI and the beancounters will applaud anything that brings more in.

You do represent a sort of defeatist mindset, that others also argue for here. "It is what it is, so you better just accept it and move on".

Well, no. CDPRed makes excellent triple A games with a fair and reasonable business model and no scummy tactics involved at all. Ubisoft, despite other shortcomings, also provide microtransactions that are completely optional, and only contain stuff already obtainable in the games otherwise - so "shortcuts" for the impatient, case in point for instance Assassin's Creed Origins. Lots of other, and usually smaller, companies also do business in a way that is deemed fair and reasonable, and still do well enough to please their shareholders, investors or owners.

It's not as if this business model suddenly died overnight and got replaced with this microtransaction hell we see today. There are still options. And the EA/Star Wars and Shadow of War: Middle Earth and Destiny 2 and other gaming fiascoes have also shown that stuffing your games full of predatory monetization isn't always an automatic win for the company. All the mentioned games there have sold millions less copies than was anticipated, gotten horrible reviews especially from customers, and would doubtfully be considered financial successes. So the MMO microtransaction business model isn't without its cracks, and who knows where we are in 10 years or so.

While I still complain about the greedy cash shop on ESO, I also buy stuff from there and keep supporting this game financially. However, there will definitely come a time when I'll turn my back on it and don't look back, a breaking point you might say, and with every scummy update from ZOS, that breaking point moves just an inch closer.

Wayshuba

Right now I don't have an issue with it - although I think individual motif pages in Crown Crates is a rather low blow. I just wish ZoS would abandon Crown Crates and just make the stuff all direct sale anyway. (Although i do have an issue with the ridiculously overpriced single outfit slots).

A company has a right to make money as long as they do not do it at the expense of the game. ZoS has one of the best content cadence in the market right now.

Sure, they will have cool weapon skins (thank goodness they are direct sale), CS only outfit motifs and mounts. Who cares. There is still a TON in game to get that none of these are ever needed. There are six new ones coming with Summerset - one with the Summerset pre-order, one in the CS and four in game.

Right now, ZoS is keeping a good balance between what is added in game and stuff in the CS. Someone earlier mentioned SWTOR. SWToR's problem is that they eventually put all their effort in the Cartel Market and very little effort into content. In the entirety of last year, for example, SWTOR put out less content than ZoS does in one patch.

As long as ZoS keeps up the current content cadence and walks a good balance between adding new stuff in the game and putting stuff in the CS, I am happy (though I would be overjoyed if they fixed the pricing on outfit slots to be more in line with the industry - and added in in game gold purchase option - and ended doing 4 day sales anymore and just put the stuff permanently in the CS). I am just fine because it appears ZoS continues to reinvest back into producing more and more content for the game. SWTOR, on the other hand, just took the money and ran.

DieAlteHexe

Carbonised wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Just for the record and there have been lots of comments, but ZeniMax, Bethesda, and all of the subsidiaries are privately held companies. There aren't any share holders to please, at least not in the traditional sense. They have investors that do like to have a return, but as others have posted they are printing money with the Crown $tore model. So before the next comment states share holder this and share holder that, there aren't any. Now let that sink in for a bit. Valued at 2.5B USD and they don't a produce tangible good. They create pixels, that once created can be reproduced and distributed forever, without additional cost or commodity investment.

Alrighty. I sit corrected. The investors then. Same diff, point stands.

I don't have an issue with the "selling pixels" thing. Movies are similar and less worth the money to me anyway (rather spend that money on books). It's a huge business now and whether it's shareholders, investors, banks, whomever, they will want ROI and the beancounters will applaud anything that brings more in.

You do represent a sort of defeatist mindset, that others also argue for here. "It is what it is, so you better just accept it and move on".

Well, no. CDPRed makes excellent triple A games with a fair and reasonable business model and no scummy tactics involved at all. Ubisoft, despite other shortcomings, also provide microtransactions that are completely optional, and only contain stuff already obtainable in the games otherwise - so "shortcuts" for the impatient, case in point for instance Assassin's Creed Origins. Lots of other, and usually smaller, companies also do business in a way that is deemed fair and reasonable, and still do well enough to please their shareholders, investors or owners.

It's not as if this business model suddenly died overnight and got replaced with this microtransaction hell we see today. There are still options. And the EA/Star Wars and Shadow of War: Middle Earth and Destiny 2 and other gaming fiascoes have also shown that stuffing your games full of predatory monetization isn't always an automatic win for the company. All the mentioned games there have sold millions less copies than was anticipated, gotten horrible reviews especially from customers, and would doubtfully be considered financial successes. So the MMO microtransaction business model isn't without its cracks, and who knows where we are in 10 years or so.

While I still complain about the greedy cash shop on ESO, I also buy stuff from there and keep supporting this game financially. However, there will definitely come a time when I'll turn my back on it and don't look back, a breaking point you might say, and with every scummy update from ZOS, that breaking point moves just an inch closer.

Do I? I think it's more pragmatic. As in "pick the hill to die on". I happen to prefer MMOs for numerous reasons and it seems that the MMO industry is well and truly saturated. Now, I suppose I could simply not play them but I derive too much enjoyment from them to do that.

I agree on the breaking point and not just with respect to monetization. However, this is my source of entertainment. I don't own a television, I don't go out partying etc. The industry has moved to this model and I have two choices; continue to MMO and be wise with respect to indulging in "gimmies" or quit MMOing. I pick the former. If that makes me a defeatist, so be it. I don't think monetization is all evil, there are degrees but I'm sure some would consider that "selling out".

Carbonised

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Just for the record and there have been lots of comments, but ZeniMax, Bethesda, and all of the subsidiaries are privately held companies. There aren't any share holders to please, at least not in the traditional sense. They have investors that do like to have a return, but as others have posted they are printing money with the Crown $tore model. So before the next comment states share holder this and share holder that, there aren't any. Now let that sink in for a bit. Valued at 2.5B USD and they don't a produce tangible good. They create pixels, that once created can be reproduced and distributed forever, without additional cost or commodity investment.

Alrighty. I sit corrected. The investors then. Same diff, point stands.

I don't have an issue with the "selling pixels" thing. Movies are similar and less worth the money to me anyway (rather spend that money on books). It's a huge business now and whether it's shareholders, investors, banks, whomever, they will want ROI and the beancounters will applaud anything that brings more in.

You do represent a sort of defeatist mindset, that others also argue for here. "It is what it is, so you better just accept it and move on".

Well, no. CDPRed makes excellent triple A games with a fair and reasonable business model and no scummy tactics involved at all. Ubisoft, despite other shortcomings, also provide microtransactions that are completely optional, and only contain stuff already obtainable in the games otherwise - so "shortcuts" for the impatient, case in point for instance Assassin's Creed Origins. Lots of other, and usually smaller, companies also do business in a way that is deemed fair and reasonable, and still do well enough to please their shareholders, investors or owners.

It's not as if this business model suddenly died overnight and got replaced with this microtransaction hell we see today. There are still options. And the EA/Star Wars and Shadow of War: Middle Earth and Destiny 2 and other gaming fiascoes have also shown that stuffing your games full of predatory monetization isn't always an automatic win for the company. All the mentioned games there have sold millions less copies than was anticipated, gotten horrible reviews especially from customers, and would doubtfully be considered financial successes. So the MMO microtransaction business model isn't without its cracks, and who knows where we are in 10 years or so.

While I still complain about the greedy cash shop on ESO, I also buy stuff from there and keep supporting this game financially. However, there will definitely come a time when I'll turn my back on it and don't look back, a breaking point you might say, and with every scummy update from ZOS, that breaking point moves just an inch closer.

Do I? I think it's more pragmatic. As in "pick the hill to die on". I happen to prefer MMOs for numerous reasons and it seems that the MMO industry is well and truly saturated. Now, I suppose I could simply not play them but I derive too much enjoyment from them to do that.

I agree on the breaking point and not just with respect to monetization. However, this is my source of entertainment. I don't own a television, I don't go out partying etc. The industry has moved to this model and I have two choices; continue to MMO and be wise with respect to indulging in "gimmies" or quit MMOing. I pick the former. If that makes me a defeatist, so be it. I don't think monetization is all evil, there are degrees but I'm sure some would consider that "selling out".

Pragmatic perhaps. I tend to be a bit more idealistic, and sure, you should pick which hill to die on, but this is certainly one of those hills I'm willing to at least let my MMO life die on. I don't play MMOs, I don't particularly enjoy multiplayer online games, I'm more of a single player type, and I spend the majority of my ESO playing time on my own. So it's not particularly hard to me to drop ESO in a heartbeat and go back to the single player universe, or just plain old books that I also buy a ton of.
I also tend to be an "all or nothing" type of person, when I enjoy something and spend my time and money on it, I want the full experience, not the "free trial". But when the full experience used to cost a few bucks for endless hours of entertainment, and now seems to cost a never ceasing and ever increasing amount of money, it fast loses its entertainment value to me. I don't particularly enjoy being taken advantage of economically, and more and more the ESO cash shop is giving me that feeling.

DieAlteHexe

Carbonised wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

SGT_Wolfe101st wrote: »

Just for the record and there have been lots of comments, but ZeniMax, Bethesda, and all of the subsidiaries are privately held companies. There aren't any share holders to please, at least not in the traditional sense. They have investors that do like to have a return, but as others have posted they are printing money with the Crown $tore model. So before the next comment states share holder this and share holder that, there aren't any. Now let that sink in for a bit. Valued at 2.5B USD and they don't a produce tangible good. They create pixels, that once created can be reproduced and distributed forever, without additional cost or commodity investment.

Alrighty. I sit corrected. The investors then. Same diff, point stands.

I don't have an issue with the "selling pixels" thing. Movies are similar and less worth the money to me anyway (rather spend that money on books). It's a huge business now and whether it's shareholders, investors, banks, whomever, they will want ROI and the beancounters will applaud anything that brings more in.

You do represent a sort of defeatist mindset, that others also argue for here. "It is what it is, so you better just accept it and move on".

Well, no. CDPRed makes excellent triple A games with a fair and reasonable business model and no scummy tactics involved at all. Ubisoft, despite other shortcomings, also provide microtransactions that are completely optional, and only contain stuff already obtainable in the games otherwise - so "shortcuts" for the impatient, case in point for instance Assassin's Creed Origins. Lots of other, and usually smaller, companies also do business in a way that is deemed fair and reasonable, and still do well enough to please their shareholders, investors or owners.

It's not as if this business model suddenly died overnight and got replaced with this microtransaction hell we see today. There are still options. And the EA/Star Wars and Shadow of War: Middle Earth and Destiny 2 and other gaming fiascoes have also shown that stuffing your games full of predatory monetization isn't always an automatic win for the company. All the mentioned games there have sold millions less copies than was anticipated, gotten horrible reviews especially from customers, and would doubtfully be considered financial successes. So the MMO microtransaction business model isn't without its cracks, and who knows where we are in 10 years or so.

While I still complain about the greedy cash shop on ESO, I also buy stuff from there and keep supporting this game financially. However, there will definitely come a time when I'll turn my back on it and don't look back, a breaking point you might say, and with every scummy update from ZOS, that breaking point moves just an inch closer.

Do I? I think it's more pragmatic. As in "pick the hill to die on". I happen to prefer MMOs for numerous reasons and it seems that the MMO industry is well and truly saturated. Now, I suppose I could simply not play them but I derive too much enjoyment from them to do that.

I agree on the breaking point and not just with respect to monetization. However, this is my source of entertainment. I don't own a television, I don't go out partying etc. The industry has moved to this model and I have two choices; continue to MMO and be wise with respect to indulging in "gimmies" or quit MMOing. I pick the former. If that makes me a defeatist, so be it. I don't think monetization is all evil, there are degrees but I'm sure some would consider that "selling out".

Pragmatic perhaps. I tend to be a bit more idealistic, and sure, you should pick which hill to die on, but this is certainly one of those hills I'm willing to at least let my MMO life die on. I don't play MMOs, I don't particularly enjoy multiplayer online games, I'm more of a single player type, and I spend the majority of my ESO playing time on my own. So it's not particularly hard to me to drop ESO in a heartbeat and go back to the single player universe, or just plain old books that I also buy a ton of.
I also tend to be an "all or nothing" type of person, when I enjoy something and spend my time and money on it, I want the full experience, not the "free trial". But when the full experience used to cost a few bucks for endless hours of entertainment, and now seems to cost a never ceasing and ever increasing amount of money, it fast loses its entertainment value to me. I don't particularly enjoy being taken advantage of economically, and more and more the ESO cash shop is giving me that feeling.

Ah but it's easy enough to avoid the monetization all together. My husband, for example, just...doesn't. He's simply not interested. Well, until they come up with a dog that he approves of. He plays the game for the ESO+ price and has a stack of crowns that he's not spent in, well...ever.

warabi

Juju_beans wrote: »

Here ya go:

https://www.vg247.com/2018/02/09/activision-blizzard-made-4-billion-microtransactions-2017-half-revenue/
https://gamerant.com/ubisoft-microtransaction-sales/

Some more hard numbers on gaming monetization:
https://www.statista.com/topics/3436/gaming-monetization/

I always knew it was insanely profitable, but daaaamn that takes it to a whole new level. Depressing, but interesting all the same and I thank you for the links.

BuddyAces

Was going to purchase that crown store ship home when it was released. Would have been my first crown only house purchase. Outside of eso+ I'm done spending money on this game. No more crates mounts pets or whatever. I know zos don't care cuz I'm just one person and my 50 to sometimes 150ish dollars a month aren't going to be noticed by them but I can at least put my foot down over the bs direction all this is headed. Not another cent by me.

Maotti

I honestly cannot and do not recommend this game to anyone anymore. Not after the introduction of crown crates, the game has gotten too heavily focused on the crown store after they were introduced.

Elsonso

mikejezz wrote: »

To be fair regarding mounts, this game nails it better than WoW. There you pay to play and also have to pay for mounts on the store (I know they put a little bit of mounts in each expansion that can be obtained in raids.)

Here you actually can pay for mounts with the monthly crowns you get.

I give WoW the win on this one.

Turelus wrote: »

ZOS the development side is a company many love and enjoy the content they produce. ZOS the marketing side has increasingly moved more and more system to make money at the expense of player satisfaction.

This happens when marketing drives game development. When marketing drives development, you get something designed to be marketed. When the game developers drive, you get a game, but probably not as financially successful.

I know they are attempting to strike a balance for monetization, while still giving the game something that it needs. It does bug me the "price" that has to be paid for the game to get something it needs, though.

Turelus wrote: »

Removal of the option to buy all items from crates with gems. Breaking new motifs into chapters and placing them in Crates.

If those two alone don't show where this is heading and set off some alarm bells for people I don't know what will.

Yeah, but it does not matter. On these things, ZOS has done the math, they know what they want to do, and they are going to do it. They know what we are going to complain about before they even roll something out. They sit back and nod at threads like this, saying "called it."

Look at the loot boxes and the outrage that had. Thread after thread about it. Not only did they not go away, they enhanced them with loot box exclusives. They don't publish the odds because we, the players, volunteer to spend our money to crowd source that information. What's not for them to love?

Look at the outfit slots for $15. Rage in the forum really taught them a thing or two about pricing, right? Heh. In time, I am sure they will find a way to "enhance" the outfit slots, as well. I'm not going to give them suggestions, but I can think of some ways to they could "enhance" them.

While I appreciate the sentiment in the thread, and agree with it, it is not like anything that is said in the forums will have an effect on marketing. They don't care. They have already decided.

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

ETA: Those numbers. Holy-you-know-what. Well, that's that then. This is basically a license to print money so I don't think there's much hope that this is just a "phase".

Billion. I knew it was big business and dev costs were astronomical but this is truly astounding in scale and scope.

Amazing, isn't it? You know what you don't see, though? You don't see the games getting better in equal measure. Right?