Pvp Battlegrounds Going To Be Base Game Now, Please Do Something About Premades

lelink88

agree and it's time to think about rank match

MisterBigglesworth

Maybe they should add a 1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1 mode?

Aliyavana

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Maybe they should add a 1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1v1 mode?

a free for all bg would sound fun

Saturn

zyk wrote: »

Premade groups want this too. There's a GvG scene waiting to explode if players didn't have to jump through hoops to arrange them in Cyrodiil.

Go beyond adding a premade queue and give us the ability to host GvG matches with spectator support too.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler ESO PVP needs GvG support!

@zyk
It could potentially also lead to championships, and so forth, which could bring even more players into the game and open up a completely new revenue stream. Though to be fair, the battlegrounds format in ESO is a bit messy, and would probably work a lot better with only two teams and with more members per team, as well as larger maps to avoid all objectives being right on top of each other.

Seraphayel

Tasear wrote: »

I want people punished for not playing the objectives. Not everything is death match.

Well, you get punished because you don't get the bonus medals for doing objectives.

Ragnarock41

These issues will never end unless we have an actual ranking system. But unfortunately there is no fair way of ranking people when the game modes are not competitive. I mean come on wtf is 4v4v4? who the hell though that was a good idea in a ''competitive'' game mode? And I won't even mention how the bgs literally penalize you for getting kills. Oh, you killed 4 guys all by yourself? Great, you lose the game now because while you were busy purple team got all the damn flags and now they have an 200 point lead on you. FFS I'm down with battlegrounds. Ridicilously bad game mode designed for total casuals with no skill in mind.

Morgul667

Most importantly there should be a ranking system

MakoFore

bg is going to be *** until they have proper rankings, KDA and custom matches. having mag sorcs steal every point in there because of mages wrath-= also sucks...

but hey- im sure theyre onto it- its only be what? a year and a half?!

the other game modes suck arse- peope only want deathmatch and domination- and if they want to play the others- they want the option to choose- each game mode- has different builds- etc. and some people just dont like crazy king, etc. its lame- fix it up zos- u could have had the closest thing to an e-sport this game has had- something entertaining enough to watch as a spectator- yet no- decided to muck it up .

Carbonised

Ill just chime in and agree with this. Either completely get rid of premades or have a separate queue fore premades and pugs.

This is one of the biggest deterrents of me doing battlegrounds.

chris211

aliyavana wrote: »

Please do not move this to battlegrounds subforum where this will die, please keep this in general so that the devs can see

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26355
"We want everybody to be able to enjoy the fast-paced action of the PvP Battlegrounds, so we're making them part of ESO's base game. This means that when ESO: Summerset and Update 18 launch, you'll be able to queue for and play Battlegrounds, even if you don't own ESO: Morrowind! Even better, with Update 18, we're also introducing new daily PvP Battlegrounds rewards, giving you even more reasons to enjoy the 4v4v4 arenas. As a reminder, there are currently five different Battlegrounds game modes: Team Deathmatch, Capture the Relic, Domination, Chaosball, and Crazy Kings. There are also six unique Battlegrounds maps: Ald Carac, Ularra, Foyada Quarry, Arcane University, Deeping Drome, and Mor Khazgur. Now more than ever, the Battlegrounds are where you want to be for deadly, small-scale PvP matches. "

Anotherone773 wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

You know, people whine about this nonstop on the Bungie forums. It's a team game, you make your team, you work together, you win. It's not a hard concept. I don't get why anyone thinks a bunch of lone wolves running off doing whatever they want should dominate teams working together. It's stupid. If you're tired of getting steamrolled, stop being a lone wolf, get a team together, and get good.

Premades have the following advantages:
* Can use builds that compliment each other. So they can work basically "raid buffed".
* Communication. They often have voice communication that the entire team is in. This alone offers a significant advantage.
* You know each members strengths and weaknesses before the BG even loads.

The whole purpose of group finder is for people who dont have premades in ANY game. And im pretty sure every BG ive been in i went through GROUP FINDER.

I dont care if i get a bad team. That guy that plays every match as deathmatch and could careless about objectives. That other one that runs around aimlessly not close to any objective or player. The one that runs by a flag but not even through its circle to start the transfer...just a couple meters outside of it. All of that is fine. But that team needs to be put against a group with similar problems. IE: One that is made up of random players. Not against a coordinated buffed premade.

Im pretty sure the only people who actually do battleground and like premades mixed with full PUG are the ones who farm them. I have yet to meet one solo PUGGER, again in any game, that thinks its a good idea or fair. Its a balance flaw in every game with BGS, and its one of the few "features" that ZOS borrowed from other games. They couldnt borrow something like awesome battlegrounds or creative objectives... nope it had to be lets mix premade with random.

As a reminder, please do something about premade groups, the excuse was that the population wasn't going to be big enough for premades and pugs to be separated but now battlegrounds are going to be base game so now the population is going to be healthy enough for separate ques. If you do not separate the ques then you will alienate and shoo away potential pvpers who are going to not going to want to be steam rolled by a coordinated group of players and so battlegrounds will reship dead. The premades that want a challenge want this change but the premades that want no resistance in their ap farms will say "this is a learn to socialize and a get gud issue"

Spacemonkey wrote: »

OR

it should just look for 12 players, group or pug, and mix the teams before the match starts.
RIP premades, ; playing AGAINST your buddies is fun too.

The matchmaking games I played allowed and did this since it balanced teams based on player rankings, so often the 2 best players of the group would end up on opposing teams. Sometimes its frustrating , sometimes its great. And when they end up on the same team, its because you KNOW your in for a challenging match vs unknowns.

This I can live with, it would be fun to play against the friends you que with

simple solution get in a premade group you're self

Sharee

chris211 wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

Please do not move this to battlegrounds subforum where this will die, please keep this in general so that the devs can see

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26355
"We want everybody to be able to enjoy the fast-paced action of the PvP Battlegrounds, so we're making them part of ESO's base game. This means that when ESO: Summerset and Update 18 launch, you'll be able to queue for and play Battlegrounds, even if you don't own ESO: Morrowind! Even better, with Update 18, we're also introducing new daily PvP Battlegrounds rewards, giving you even more reasons to enjoy the 4v4v4 arenas. As a reminder, there are currently five different Battlegrounds game modes: Team Deathmatch, Capture the Relic, Domination, Chaosball, and Crazy Kings. There are also six unique Battlegrounds maps: Ald Carac, Ularra, Foyada Quarry, Arcane University, Deeping Drome, and Mor Khazgur. Now more than ever, the Battlegrounds are where you want to be for deadly, small-scale PvP matches. "

Anotherone773 wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

You know, people whine about this nonstop on the Bungie forums. It's a team game, you make your team, you work together, you win. It's not a hard concept. I don't get why anyone thinks a bunch of lone wolves running off doing whatever they want should dominate teams working together. It's stupid. If you're tired of getting steamrolled, stop being a lone wolf, get a team together, and get good.

Premades have the following advantages:
* Can use builds that compliment each other. So they can work basically "raid buffed".
* Communication. They often have voice communication that the entire team is in. This alone offers a significant advantage.
* You know each members strengths and weaknesses before the BG even loads.

The whole purpose of group finder is for people who dont have premades in ANY game. And im pretty sure every BG ive been in i went through GROUP FINDER.

I dont care if i get a bad team. That guy that plays every match as deathmatch and could careless about objectives. That other one that runs around aimlessly not close to any objective or player. The one that runs by a flag but not even through its circle to start the transfer...just a couple meters outside of it. All of that is fine. But that team needs to be put against a group with similar problems. IE: One that is made up of random players. Not against a coordinated buffed premade.

Im pretty sure the only people who actually do battleground and like premades mixed with full PUG are the ones who farm them. I have yet to meet one solo PUGGER, again in any game, that thinks its a good idea or fair. Its a balance flaw in every game with BGS, and its one of the few "features" that ZOS borrowed from other games. They couldnt borrow something like awesome battlegrounds or creative objectives... nope it had to be lets mix premade with random.

As a reminder, please do something about premade groups, the excuse was that the population wasn't going to be big enough for premades and pugs to be separated but now battlegrounds are going to be base game so now the population is going to be healthy enough for separate ques. If you do not separate the ques then you will alienate and shoo away potential pvpers who are going to not going to want to be steam rolled by a coordinated group of players and so battlegrounds will reship dead. The premades that want a challenge want this change but the premades that want no resistance in their ap farms will say "this is a learn to socialize and a get gud issue"

Spacemonkey wrote: »

OR

it should just look for 12 players, group or pug, and mix the teams before the match starts.
RIP premades, ; playing AGAINST your buddies is fun too.

The matchmaking games I played allowed and did this since it balanced teams based on player rankings, so often the 2 best players of the group would end up on opposing teams. Sometimes its frustrating , sometimes its great. And when they end up on the same team, its because you KNOW your in for a challenging match vs unknowns.

This I can live with, it would be fun to play against the friends you que with

simple solution get in a premade group you're self

Do you believe ZOS put a group finder for battlegrounds into the game just so that players can ignore it and exclusively play as premades?

I don't. Thus, "get in a premade" is not a solution.

dennissomb16_ESO

Battlegrounds would always be better if they separated pugs and premades but I am afraid that making battlegrounds part of the base game is not going to change things. I have no factual data about numbers just estimates from talking to guildies across the the 3 guilds I belong to and I would estimate that at least 90% of the active player base have Morrowind.

While making battlegrounds part of the base game will add some players it will not drastically increase the number of people so I do not see enough numbers to change the current que system. Just a guess of course.

ChefZero

Hopefully ZOS knows that there's nothing new to invent. Just look for BGs like in WoW and copy the best of them.. some 8v8 or 12v12 so Guilds are able to queue for. No 3 way

Same with queue system. MOBAs track premades and put them together. So if in a 5v5 4 buddies queues together most time they will matched 4+1v4+1 or sometimes 4+1v3+2. A system like this is needed for BGs too.

Anomanderake

Just separate the queques. Premade (3-4) vs pug (1-2). Obviously pug should be able to join the premade queque so, probably the premade one will remain the “real” queque (because less waiting time) excpet in primetime, where is almost sure to run into a premade.

Saturn

bardx86 wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

It should have never been 4v4v4 BGs to begin with. This is such a terrible design for so many reasons it puts me almost at a loss of words and i would give anything to be able to sit down with wheeler and just understand how on earth this was decided on.

Setting aside the rediculous loppsided nature of 3 way objective based small scale instanced pvp and all the issues that inherently brings out, premades were always going to be an issue right from the start, and anyone familiar with with systems like this in mmos smelled the *** from a mile away. Separate queues for premades were never the solution, full stop, period. Queue times would be downright inexcusable and all but destroy and desire for premade groups to even bother since system in place would not only find one other 4 man premade queuing at the same time, but TWO. Player base for bgs is small enough as it is, and BGs becoming part of the base game will not have a significant impact on this since most premade groups are players thay value pvp and likely bought access morrowind just for BGs already. There will be an influx of nee players for sure, but premade queues would still be complete trash.

I repeat, BGs SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN 3 way. They should have been mapped out for two teams of 8 players, with each bg map being its own game mode so you can actually solidify objectives desgined around the geography of the map. A 8v8 map designed around CTF would never logically work on a map designed around KotH. When you establish this standard, it becomes insanely easy to develop objectives that facilitate actual pvp while incentivizing objective play and making sure not spreading out all 8 players on a team all but garuntees a loss (i say this because there are countless morons that seem to think 8v8 would end up being a mess with stacking ults and clumping up which is complete nonsense).

Then you restrict premades to only being able to queue up as a 4 man team at most. Said premade will then only ever be placed in a group with 4 other solos or 2 other duos, or a trio and a solo. Then the matchmaking will prioritize premade groups to match them against. It will first make a pass for any other 4 man premade in queue to place them against, if non then it searches for a trio, then a duo untill the pools of players a full.

When you have a 4 man premade in an 8 man party standard, the advantage is much less reduced and almost never becomes a complete blowout.

In order of best case scenario for premades and general matchmaking with enough players queueing up, your team comps end up such as
4+4
3+1+4
3+3+2
4+2+2

Etc etc.

In 8 man objective based bgs, a premade of 4 defintely has an advantage but not THAT significant of an infulence.

Eso bgs as they currently stand are trash and it doesnt even matter of premades are allowed to dominate.

Dude the best part of BG is it is 3 way.

I'm sure you're not the only one who feels that way, but I really couldn't disagree more. The three-way setup not only severely limits the map design (currently all maps are triangular to make the distance to objectives the same for each side, and they are all quite small with all objectives within spitting distance), it also creates an unnecessary amount of objective confusion (just look at capture the relic for example), and it eliminates the possibility of doing any kind of structured championships (if ZOS ever wanted to expand into that in the future).

Three-way fighting made somewhat sense in Cyrodiil, where the map size and player count sort of alleviates for the flaws inherent to this kind of design, but in small-scale it just has too many issues associated with it, and never really made much sense in the first place as the three alliances have nothing to do with the battlegrounds. The three-way setup was likely kept because ZOS thought it was a clever and original idea, but they neglected to consider the implications of this properly, and failed to realise that the reason other MMOs don't run such a ridiculous setup for small scale PvP is because it doesn't work as well as two teams fighting each other.

I don't think ZOS will ever change the way battlegrounds are done, since Cyrodiil has remained unchanged since launch (for the most part), but perhaps the access change with Summerset and the influx of more people to the battlegrounds could make them change their minds, though they are always quite stubborn in their design decisions, especially the really poorly-thought-out ones.

Mihael

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler
I really think that they should do separate ques when summerset comes out or else like others have said new bg players will just be scared away by pre made groups that just dominate all the pugs

like @zyk said there is a whole group of players that want competitive guild v guild matches and letting us make custom matches would really help. If this is too much making a sort of league play where everyone registers under a group name at the start of the season and has to move up the ranks(possibly make points go only to the winning team so that people dont get #1 just for playing a million hours) would be really helpful too.

everyone says that this game cant be competitive or that pvp makes no money but that's because great opportunities like this^^ are never given a chance, if we build a solid competitive pvp community both the game and business aspect of eso would prosper, just look at a game like fortnite the pvp community is so solid that people spend $20 on a skin every time one comes out

CompM4s

this game promotes playing with your friends. Removing premade groups would directly conflict with what zos wanted. Also teamwork always wins, its not cheating, its common sense.

wheem_ESO

chris211 wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

Please do not move this to battlegrounds subforum where this will die, please keep this in general so that the devs can see

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/26355
"We want everybody to be able to enjoy the fast-paced action of the PvP Battlegrounds, so we're making them part of ESO's base game. This means that when ESO: Summerset and Update 18 launch, you'll be able to queue for and play Battlegrounds, even if you don't own ESO: Morrowind! Even better, with Update 18, we're also introducing new daily PvP Battlegrounds rewards, giving you even more reasons to enjoy the 4v4v4 arenas. As a reminder, there are currently five different Battlegrounds game modes: Team Deathmatch, Capture the Relic, Domination, Chaosball, and Crazy Kings. There are also six unique Battlegrounds maps: Ald Carac, Ularra, Foyada Quarry, Arcane University, Deeping Drome, and Mor Khazgur. Now more than ever, the Battlegrounds are where you want to be for deadly, small-scale PvP matches. "

Anotherone773 wrote: »

KiraTsukasa wrote: »

You know, people whine about this nonstop on the Bungie forums. It's a team game, you make your team, you work together, you win. It's not a hard concept. I don't get why anyone thinks a bunch of lone wolves running off doing whatever they want should dominate teams working together. It's stupid. If you're tired of getting steamrolled, stop being a lone wolf, get a team together, and get good.

Premades have the following advantages:
* Can use builds that compliment each other. So they can work basically "raid buffed".
* Communication. They often have voice communication that the entire team is in. This alone offers a significant advantage.
* You know each members strengths and weaknesses before the BG even loads.

The whole purpose of group finder is for people who dont have premades in ANY game. And im pretty sure every BG ive been in i went through GROUP FINDER.

I dont care if i get a bad team. That guy that plays every match as deathmatch and could careless about objectives. That other one that runs around aimlessly not close to any objective or player. The one that runs by a flag but not even through its circle to start the transfer...just a couple meters outside of it. All of that is fine. But that team needs to be put against a group with similar problems. IE: One that is made up of random players. Not against a coordinated buffed premade.

Im pretty sure the only people who actually do battleground and like premades mixed with full PUG are the ones who farm them. I have yet to meet one solo PUGGER, again in any game, that thinks its a good idea or fair. Its a balance flaw in every game with BGS, and its one of the few "features" that ZOS borrowed from other games. They couldnt borrow something like awesome battlegrounds or creative objectives... nope it had to be lets mix premade with random.

As a reminder, please do something about premade groups, the excuse was that the population wasn't going to be big enough for premades and pugs to be separated but now battlegrounds are going to be base game so now the population is going to be healthy enough for separate ques. If you do not separate the ques then you will alienate and shoo away potential pvpers who are going to not going to want to be steam rolled by a coordinated group of players and so battlegrounds will reship dead. The premades that want a challenge want this change but the premades that want no resistance in their ap farms will say "this is a learn to socialize and a get gud issue"

Spacemonkey wrote: »

OR

it should just look for 12 players, group or pug, and mix the teams before the match starts.
RIP premades, ; playing AGAINST your buddies is fun too.

The matchmaking games I played allowed and did this since it balanced teams based on player rankings, so often the 2 best players of the group would end up on opposing teams. Sometimes its frustrating , sometimes its great. And when they end up on the same team, its because you KNOW your in for a challenging match vs unknowns.

This I can live with, it would be fun to play against the friends you que with

simple solution get in a premade group you're self

Why? Being on either end of constant "pug stomping" is exceedingly boring. Even when I have had "premade" groups lately, it's all been really casual; bring whatever character with whatever build, and attack whatever target, oftentimes not using any voice chat at all.

Putting together some tryhard setup with dedicated heals, guard, focus fired high burst damage, etc...would get really boring, really fast. Doing it a few times here and there for some practice (in case of an eventual competitive system) is fine, but I don't get how the people that do it all the time actually have any fun at all.

Aliyavana

Ty zos for killing my thread by moving it to the battleground subforum

Morgul667

I understand pre-made are tough, but I do belive a PUG of 2-3 experience players with cancer builds can be worst than simple premade guildies who go there to have fun

I think the ranking system would be more appropriate than separate queues. Once we have separate queues we will find out premades are not the entire issue.

If there are not enough people to match you with someone of the same rank, then give the lowest ranking team a damage / health bonus

xericdx

Apache_Kid wrote: »

This is like the 4th thread you've made about this recently.

I solo queue into BGs the majority of the time I play and have won many matches. Very rarely will i come in last. Have beaten plenty of pre-mades with a Pug group. There is nothing wrong with people playing with friends.

BGs being base game doesn't necessarily mean that there will be enough players in to allow for multiple queues. The people still need to play. It almost always takes me a few minutes to find a match when I'm solo-queing and there is only 1 queue. What will my search times look like with multiple queues? I like the one queue because it's going to put me into a match as fast as possible.

Let them see what the population of BGs is like after this change. If they feel there is enough players maybe we will get more than 1 queue.

This and the post above @Morgul667 . Never played in a premade with Discord/sets, etc, but indeed played with 1/2/3 players met while BGing and don't really understand that much the hate. Not sure that the same person(s) starting topics around the same issue is the way to go though.

To be clear, I do not disagree with a different queue (or care for that matter), provided there are enough players. But if we really want to be listend we should be a tad more creative than **** premades. What about group of 2/3? What about ranking system? What about different queue for different rewards? Else? PVE has evolved constantly between normal, vet, hard mode, dungeons, trials, with different level of difficulties tied to different rewards. This has brought the creation of several guilds focused on this and progressive learning for many pleayers. How many creating guilds are there for PvP? Or just compare the ratio of PVE/PVP guilds.

PvP is clearly not the favorite child of ESO, but we could maybe try to push it better, just my 2 cents.

Anomanderake

Queque should be separate. A ranking sistem is ridocolus, just penalize skill and build. A premade / pug i just fair, it’s all about the skill and the build (wich is a skill) of the players.
Anyway, as a mostly pvp player (like, I barely 1-2 random dung a week outside of gearing) I agree with the fact that pvp must be more rewarding. More xp from killing players / capture things. Daily like random dungeon (100k-33k) could open the way to not bother in pve stuff more than strict necessary (like pve players actually do with pvp-caltrops-grind).
BUT merging pugs and premades will not improve pvp. It will just drain players from it.
If I am not able to pick up a team* in the primetime (it rarely happens, I am quite new to the game and not so many guilders that run bg or pvp at all >.<) I just quit bg.


*before complain: i’m actually in two active guilds, one beeing only pvp. But not always is possible to achieve a team, especially logging in the evening, when all people is in cyro / doing pledges.

ToRelax

Anomanderake wrote: »

Queque should be separate. A ranking sistem is ridocolus, just penalize skill and build. A premade / pug i just fair, it’s all about the skill and the build (wich is a skill) of the players.

[...]

On the contrary. A ranking system means you get paired up with players of as similar performance level (not necessarily skill level, if the game isn't balanced properly) as possible. Whereas if you (only) seperate the queue based on groupsize, more skilled or organized players will compete against inexperienced or casual groups while a few exceptional players dominate the solo queue.

Mihael

I would be okay with either a ranking system or a separate ques system as long as they put something in place to separate the better players from the newer less experienced players. I think they can implement whichever one is quicker to make now and switch next patch if that doesn't work well like they did with cp/no cp bgs. As long as we have something in place that shows new players they can have fun without going super try hard and veteran players that they can go full tryhard and have fun the bg population will increase

ChefZero

Ranking system would make the communtity only saltier without monthly balancing changes. Or at least every 3 months... #nogoodidea

IcyDeadPeople

ChefZero wrote: »

Ranking system would make the communtity only saltier without monthly balancing changes. Or at least every 3 months... #nogoodidea

My understanding is there is already some sort of MMR system in place, at least that's what I gathered from one of the old ESO Live interviews where they discussed how the queue attempts to match people of similar performance levels (no idea how that is calculated), then expands the pool if not enough.

Adding BG to the base game is great news, and I imagine we will see a lot of inexperienced players who just want to get caltrops or warhorn, etc. Hopefully MMR system can result in more balanced matches if there are tons of people in the queue. One sided matches are not much fun for anybody.

Anomanderake

ToRelax wrote: »

On the contrary. A ranking system means you get paired up with players of as similar performance level (not necessarily skill level, if the game isn't balanced properly) as possible. Whereas if you (only) seperate the queue based on groupsize, more skilled or organized players will compete against inexperienced or casual groups while a few exceptional players dominate the solo queue.

What's the problem with the pvp dominate by better players?
The problem is just when you want to fight without a Group and you are forced to compete with groups.
There is a good player in the opponent's team? Focus him or flee. That's all.

Edit: you really want to lead to an exploiting sistem where people lose several matches just to be low-ranked and then return to farm noob? Yes, it should'nt happen, but you know, under 50 is full of veteran with gold tier equip. If there is a way to exoploit a sistem, someone will exploit him.
Note: a solo / premade queue is less exploitable. Evene if premades can just queue at the same time, they can be splitted. Solo/premade is actually the only simple and fair option.

ecru

I probably sound like a broken record at this point but 4v4v4 needs to be replaced with two teams instead.

Gonna quote my post from an earlier thread:

ecru wrote: »

This [premade only queue] won't solve the problem of premades. Not all premades are organized groups in voice. The problem with organized premades stems from the 4v4v4 system itself and IMO cannot be "fixed" until that is changed. Three teams is too chaotic for disorganized groups, thus giving a huge advantage to more organized groups as the organized group will use their potential for superior numbers during every single match to their advantage.

Because of this reason, there is no way to balance a premade vs premade vs premade match when two of those premades is a group of friends casually queueing together and one premade is a serious group using voice. The organized group will always backdoor the other two groups and win every time, simply because they're more organized. Creating a premade only queue will only lead to people who would have otherwise wanted to group with their friends deciding not to form a group of 4 to avoid the same premades they want to avoid solo queueing. People should be allowed to form a group of 4, queue for a bg, and casually have fun, but going up against one or even two well organized premades every queue will ruin the experience for them.

The solution is balancing out premades with pugs on their team. This is what every other game does. A high ranking premade (group of 4) is paired up with 4 low ranking pugs and put against a pug queue of 8 average players, or two premades on either team are paired up with pugs so that it's premade/pugs vs premade/pugs. A new 4v4, premade only queue will be added for groups who want to play against other premades, and the other queue that has premades grouped with pugs (8v8 for example) would be for people who want to queue up and casually pvp.

Every other game does it this way, and they do it this way for a reason. With three teams, even if all of the above problems were magically solved with theoretically perfect matchmaking, you would still lose 2 out of every 3 games. Loss-Loss-Win-Loss-Win-Loss--does that sound fun to anyone? No one likes losing that much more than they win regardless of their skill. Even the absolute best players would struggle to reach a 40% win rate.

tl;dr the entire system needs an overhaul

I don't think there is any other way to solve this issue. BG's will always be chaotic and imbalanced until drastic changes are made.

ToRelax

Anomanderake wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

On the contrary. A ranking system means you get paired up with players of as similar performance level (not necessarily skill level, if the game isn't balanced properly) as possible. Whereas if you (only) seperate the queue based on groupsize, more skilled or organized players will compete against inexperienced or casual groups while a few exceptional players dominate the solo queue.

What's the problem with the pvp dominate by better players?
The problem is just when you want to fight without a Group and you are forced to compete with groups.

The problem isn't fighting a group. Ideally, every random group would work together. The problem is the encounter not being a competition because one side has a massive skill or organization advantage. That's not fun for anyone.

There is a good player in the opponent's team? Focus him or flee. That's all.

...and to make that clear, I would be one of those players dominating the solo queue, so please don't tell me what to do about them.

Edit: you really want to lead to an exploiting sistem where people lose several matches just to be low-ranked and then return to farm noob? Yes, it should'nt happen, but you know, under 50 is full of veteran with gold tier equip. If there is a way to exoploit a sistem, someone will exploit him.

Yes, I fully expect that to happen. And it's far better to have a handful of players running from competition than to put the entire population in that situation by force.

Note: a solo / premade queue is less exploitable. Evene if premades can just queue at the same time, they can be splitted. Solo/premade is actually the only simple and fair option.

Only splitting the queue based on groupsize is only less exploitable because it's entirely missing an important system to make serious competition possible in the first place. So no, it's not fairer. It's certainly simple by comparison, which is why I'd be okay with it for now. But it's not better than a well thought-out ranking system.

ecru

Anomanderake wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

On the contrary. A ranking system means you get paired up with players of as similar performance level (not necessarily skill level, if the game isn't balanced properly) as possible. Whereas if you (only) seperate the queue based on groupsize, more skilled or organized players will compete against inexperienced or casual groups while a few exceptional players dominate the solo queue.

Edit: you really want to lead to an exploiting sistem where people lose several matches just to be low-ranked and then return to farm noob? Yes, it should'nt happen, but you know, under 50 is full of veteran with gold tier equip. If there is a way to exoploit a sistem, someone will exploit him.

A good matchmaking system can't be gamed like this. After playing enough matches, your ranking (ELO if you will) gets locked in to a certain range so that you can't throw a few games and drop a substantial amount. It knows how you usually perform, so it isn't going to drop you down right away. You'll only lose a very small amount of ELO for each loss if you've played a lot of games.