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Stop nerfing Strife
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Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭The heal on strife is just shockingly bad...
No it's not. It's the best HoT in the game in terms of efficiency. People are doing vMA no-death with that as the only heal.
It's a better heal than Rapid Regen (and cheaper) and it's attached to a ranged spammable damage skill which is also the cheapest one in the game apart from Ransack/Pierce. Only damage/heal skill that's arguably better is Embers but that has 5m range and it's a DoT. Not a 28m range spammable.
I'm not saying it deserved a nerf necessarily, but let's not make up *** arguments about it.
I'd like Magblade to have a non-reflectable ranged skill though. I think Cripple would make a good candidate for that.
Nonononononono
Cripple is far overtuned for it to be non reflectable. I don’t say I don’t like this change - I love it. It would absolutely murder any magdk, but the skill itself is super strong as is and would probably lead to magblades being nerf hammered.
For example I heard that heresya spams cripple in fights more than strife itself. I started doing that too and the results are insane. Most people just ragequit duels because you control the fight too great.The heal on strife is just shockingly bad, you can't weave it in easily with other abilities or light attacks, it's reflectable (don't even get me started on how dumb that is, you're pulling the life force from someone how you gonna say that's a projectile O_o)
And now another cost increase?
I wouldn't mind but I run 2.2k regen on my magicka NB with syphoning AND elemental drain and sometimes that isn't even enough
Obviously I'm moaning because this is my main class and whilst it may be extremely strong in pve it's shocking for open world cyrodiil so can we try and figure out a way to reign in its pve performance without punishing it even more in PvP?
Well technically you throw a transmutation ball at the enemy that fills up with life energy and then comes back at you. If the enemy reflects it it means they reflect the transmute ball so you take life from yourself.
"Steal an enemy’s life force, dealing [x] Magic Damage and healing you for 25% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds for 10 seconds."
Yeah I can totally see the "transmute ball" part here...
I am with you on this, always was. I did find out from a ESO lore guy that this is how strife actually works from a lore standpoint though, so I’ll take his word on it.0 -
Marabornwingrion✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Strife has received multiple nerfs over the years.- A healing reduction nerf by making it impossible to crit a Strife heal that was sourced from a crit hit, essentially eliminating the "double crit" that made Strife a strong heal.
- Another healing nerf that reduced the number of people healed by Strife.
- A cost nerf that increased the cost of Strife.
- And now, an upcoming second cost nerf to Strife that eliminates its cost advantage over Force Shock.
Never has Strife ever been buffed over the years. Only nerfed.
Now, let's consider Force Shock vs. Strife:- Damage: Despite Strife's slightly higher base tooltip, Force Shock is actually much stronger.
- The Destruction Staff passive that increases the penetration of destro attacks/abilities makes up for the tooltip difference between the two.
- Force Shock is easily buffed: Dunmer, Altmer, and Nord have passives that buff Force Shock damage. Engulfing Flames will buff Force Shock. There are no Magic Damage amps in this game.
- Force Pulse has an AoE component, which applies rather frequently due to the increased ease of applying status effects on a target.
- Force Shock can apply status effects which do additional damage.
- Force Shock counts as 3 hits, which increases the rate at which "chance on damage" sets proc (Scathing, Nerien'eth, etc.)
- Force Shock's damage can be substantially buffed by an Asylum staff; there are no sets that buff Strife's damage.
- Resource sustain: After the Summerset cost nerf, Force Shock will actually have better sustain than Strife. Why? The destro staff passive that returns magicka on kills attributed to staff abilities. Since this requires a kill, it makes no difference in PvE boss fights, but it is a substantial source of sustain in low-health fights like trash pulls, vMA, vDSA, and PvP. Pre-Summerset, this was the one major advantage that Strife had.
- Utility: Strife has a heal. Crushing Shock is a ranged interrupt. There will be content where Crushing Shock is required, and here is content where the Strife heal is required. The two are not really comparable.
So my question to @ZOS_Wrobel and @ZOS_RichLambert is simple: Why would anyone use Strife in traditional PvE content where there is healer support? Sure, Strife will still see use in vMA (even though the most competitive vMA runners have already switched to Force Pulse over Strife) and Asylum (but that's really a problem with Asylum's unique design that forces healers away from the healing role, creating an "everyone-for-themselves" paradigm).
Do you remember the days pre-Morrowind, when every magicka nightblade played like a wannabe sorc, using Force Pulse as their spammable instead of Strife, their own class ability? Force Pulse is simply stronger than Strife. The reason magicka nightblades went back to using their own class-identifying still instead of a homogenized weapon skill was that Morrowind made sustain relevant again, and that gave Strife an advantage that wasn't really relevant pre-Morrowind.
Again, Force Shock is stronger than Strife. This is why everyone used Force Shock in PvE pre-Morrowind. This is why competitive vMA scores in the CwC and DB patches are done using Force Pulse. This is why for short bursty fights (no need for long-term sustain) where people want to post large parses, they use Force Pulse instead of Strife. Strife had two pillars that kept it relevant: sustain and the self-healing. In Summerset, sustain will turn from an advantage to a disadvantage (since Force Shock has a magicka refund component), and the self-healing is not relevant for a wide range of content.
This nerf is unnecessary, especially since the cost of Strife had already been nerfed in an earlier patch. And it makes Strife a subpar skill that is no longer competitive with Force Shock. Is this really what you want? For all magicka users to go around spamming Force Pulse regardless of class? To relegate a class-identifying skill to irrelevance?
@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert If you nerf the cost of Strife, at the very least, the damage of Strife needs to be made competitive, considering that Force Shock is subject to buffs and amps not available to Strife. Or... just don't nerf things that don't need to be nerfed.
This should be pinned somewhere.
@ZOS_Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert2 -
Xeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Oh really?code65536 wrote:Now, let's consider Force Shock vs. Strife:
Despite Strife's slightly higher base tooltip, Force Shock is actually much stronger.
Innate Axiom Set
(5 items) Adds 400 Spell and Weapon Damage to your Class abilities.
War Maiden Set
(5 Items) Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Magic Damage abilities
So like, everything on your bar right?
Sorc can't even use force pulse anymore and they're basically the only ones who used it. They're stuck with now obsolete master staves and flame reach.
Yeah, no.code65536 wrote:The Destruction Staff passive that increases the penetration of destro attacks/abilities makes up for the tooltip difference between the two.
Force Shock is easily buffed: Dunmer, Altmer, and Nord have passives that buff Force Shock damage. Engulfing Flames will buff Force Shock. There are no Magic Damage amps in this game.
See above. Also have a look at your built in minor berserk and Death Stroke tooltip.
Again, see above. Also, RIP Master/Malestrom/Asylum with Summerset.code65536 wrote:Force Shock's damage can be substantially buffed by an Asylum staff; there are no sets that buff Strife's damage.usmcjdking wrote:A skill that can give you 11% additional healing that heals you for the entire dmg done over 8 seconds, does good single target damage as well as providing 2 ult every four seconds in addition to costing nearly half as much as any other spammable is 100% balanced.
This.
Defend your class. I'm all for it, but let's not get *** silly here.
Edited by Xeven on April 6, 2018 2:35PM1 -
Edziu✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Oh really?code65536 wrote:Now, let's consider Force Shock vs. Strife:
Despite Strife's slightly higher base tooltip, Force Shock is actually much stronger.
Innate Axiom Set
(5 items) Adds 400 Spell and Weapon Damage to your Class abilities.
War Maiden Set
(5 Items) Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Magic Damage abilities
So like, everything on your bar right?
Sorc can't even use force pulse anymore and they're basically the only ones who used it. They're stuck with now obsolete master staves and flame reach.
but we have prbolem why almsot noody is running those sets and nobody who have mind will use it....sets like this maybe give flat higher weapon/spell dmg for 1 type of damage but then no any buff is buffing is, like major brutaility/sorcerery etc, nothing is buff additional damage from 5 piece of those sets so nobody will even count this as set to theory craft for endgame0 -
BigBadVolk✭✭✭✭✭
Oh really?code65536 wrote:Now, let's consider Force Shock vs. Strife:
Despite Strife's slightly higher base tooltip, Force Shock is actually much stronger.
Innate Axiom Set
(5 items) Adds 400 Spell and Weapon Damage to your Class abilities.
War Maiden Set
(5 Items) Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Magic Damage abilities
So like, everything on your bar right?
Sorc can't even use force pulse anymore and they're basically the only ones who used it. They're stuck with now obsolete master staves and flame reach.
but we have prbolem why almsot noody is running those sets and nobody who have mind will use it....sets like this maybe give flat higher weapon/spell dmg for 1 type of damage but then no any buff is buffing is, like major brutaility/sorcerery etc, nothing is buff additional damage from 5 piece of those sets so nobody will even count this as set to theory craft for endgame
ye those two are good tether bombing sets, nothing else"The ass is similar to the opinion: Everyone has it, but no one cares about the others!"
I'm 120 years old0 -
BigBadVolk✭✭✭✭✭@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert If you nerf the cost of Strife, at the very least, the damage of Strife needs to be made competitive, considering that Force Shock is subject to buffs and amps not available to Strife. Or... just don't nerf things that don't need to be nerfed.
100% agree with your writing, I'dd add but as many people said knowing Zos way of nerf things (and if they go with this strife and FP will have same cost) we will see a FP nerf sooner than a buff to strife damage sadly"The ass is similar to the opinion: Everyone has it, but no one cares about the others!"
I'm 120 years old0 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭The heal on strife is just shockingly bad...
No it's not. It's the best HoT in the game in terms of efficiency. People are doing vMA no-death with that as the only heal.
It's a better heal than Rapid Regen (and cheaper) and it's attached to a ranged spammable damage skill which is also the cheapest one in the game apart from Ransack/Pierce. Only damage/heal skill that's arguably better is Embers but that has 5m range and it's a DoT. Not a 28m range spammable.
I'm not saying it deserved a nerf necessarily, but let's not make up *** arguments about it.
I'd like Magblade to have a non-reflectable ranged skill though. I think Cripple would make a good candidate for that.
I don’t know where you source your numbers from, but I definitely must agree that the strife heal is really bad (in PvP!). Been running this skill on my magblade for 4 years, and in combat metrics it doesn’t even exceed half the healing of refreshing, or mutagen, while having much higher uptime. Minor vitality is kind of useful, but this skill is loosing potency every patch and, even though I hat using it, I have switched to using concealed now as well because it’s just more reliable. For my gameplay, I haven’t noticed a lack in healing output as well.
To bring efficiency in PvP and PvE in line, I think it would be better to increase the healing part of the skill and therefore nerf the damage/sustain part.Edited by Jeezye on April 6, 2018 3:56PM0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Nonononononono
Cripple is far overtuned for it to be non reflectable. I don’t say I don’t like this change - I love it. It would absolutely murder any magdk, but the skill itself is super strong as is and would probably lead to magblades being nerf hammered.
For example I heard that heresya spams cripple in fights more than strife itself. I started doing that too and the results are insane. Most people just ragequit duels because you control the fight too great.
DKs are getting snare removal next patch. And everyone else is suffering from that already. I don't seeing as a biggie personally, but I see the point about the skill being quite overloaded already.EU | PC | AD0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The heal on strife is just shockingly bad...
No it's not. It's the best HoT in the game in terms of efficiency. People are doing vMA no-death with that as the only heal.
It's a better heal than Rapid Regen (and cheaper) and it's attached to a ranged spammable damage skill which is also the cheapest one in the game apart from Ransack/Pierce. Only damage/heal skill that's arguably better is Embers but that has 5m range and it's a DoT. Not a 28m range spammable.
I'm not saying it deserved a nerf necessarily, but let's not make up *** arguments about it.
I'd like Magblade to have a non-reflectable ranged skill though. I think Cripple would make a good candidate for that.
I don’t know where you source your numbers from, but I definitely must agree that the strife heal is really bad (in PvP!). Been running this skill on my magblade for 4 years, and in combat metrics it doesn’t even exceed half the healing of refreshing, or mutagen, while having much higher uptime. Minor vitality is kind of useful, but this skill is loosing potency every patch and, even though I hat using it, I have switched to using concealed now as well because it’s just more reliable. For my gameplay, I haven’t noticed a lack in healing output as well.
To bring efficiency in PvP and PvE in line, I think it would be better to increase the healing part of the skill and therefore nerf the damage/sustain part.
Mutagen heals many people, spamming it a couple of times will cover a group of 4 easily. So it's almost an AoE HoT. Same with Refreshing Path.
You're using Swallow Soul which is only a self heal. If your self heals showed higher healing than your AoE heals, I would be very concerned.EU | PC | AD0 -
arkansas_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Oh really?code65536 wrote:Now, let's consider Force Shock vs. Strife:
Despite Strife's slightly higher base tooltip, Force Shock is actually much stronger.
Innate Axiom Set
(5 items) Adds 400 Spell and Weapon Damage to your Class abilities.
War Maiden Set
(5 Items) Adds 400 Spell Damage to your Magic Damage abilities
So like, everything on your bar right?
You're forgetting to factor in that Force Pulse does elemental damage that has a chance to proc secondary effects (Burning, Concussed, Chilled) that either increase damage output or increase survivability, has a flame damage component that does bonus damage to vampires, and is unreflectable, on top of the extra spell pen already mentioned. Force Pulse does more damage. The largest reason to slot Strife over it was the cheap cost and that's gone now, the two skills aren't competitive with one another.Yeah, no.
See above. Also have a look at your built in minor berserk and Death Stroke tooltip.
Both of those things buff Force Pulse too (and Berserk is available to every class through Slimecraw or Combat Prayer.) That means the end result is the same (a Force Pulse will hit harder than Strife assuming all variables are equal) which is the point @code65536 is trying to make.
ＦＯＲＵＭＰＬＡＲ
Grand Overlord 25/8/171 -
Abstraqt✭✭✭✭The heal on strife is just shockingly bad...
No it's not. It's the best HoT in the game in terms of efficiency. People are doing vMA no-death with that as the only heal.
It's a better heal than Rapid Regen (and cheaper) and it's attached to a ranged spammable damage skill which is also the cheapest one in the game apart from Ransack/Pierce. Only damage/heal skill that's arguably better is Embers but that has 5m range and it's a DoT. Not a 28m range spammable.
I'm not saying it deserved a nerf necessarily, but let's not make up *** arguments about it.
I'd like Magblade to have a non-reflectable ranged skill though. I think Cripple would make a good candidate for that.
Cool, you pop into cyrodiil then tell me that swallow soul is a good heal
I'm in no-CP BGs all the time, mate. It's as good as any HoT and better than most.
Its not though, you're actually deluded if you think it's good0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭The heal on strife is just shockingly bad...
No it's not. It's the best HoT in the game in terms of efficiency. People are doing vMA no-death with that as the only heal.
It's a better heal than Rapid Regen (and cheaper) and it's attached to a ranged spammable damage skill which is also the cheapest one in the game apart from Ransack/Pierce. Only damage/heal skill that's arguably better is Embers but that has 5m range and it's a DoT. Not a 28m range spammable.
I'm not saying it deserved a nerf necessarily, but let's not make up *** arguments about it.
I'd like Magblade to have a non-reflectable ranged skill though. I think Cripple would make a good candidate for that.
Cool, you pop into cyrodiil then tell me that swallow soul is a good heal
I'm in no-CP BGs all the time, mate. It's as good as any HoT and better than most.
Its not though, you're actually deluded if you think it's good
It is very good, especially in heavy. Whenever I play magblade in a group I swap to funnel (amongst other things) and that ticks harder than my friend’s vigor on a shackle/bone/master+SA weps. Now if you think the numbers lie idk what to tell you.1 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Strife has received multiple nerfs over the years.- A healing reduction nerf by making it impossible to crit a Strife heal that was sourced from a crit hit, essentially eliminating the "double crit" that made Strife a strong heal.
- Another healing nerf that reduced the number of people healed by Strife.
- A cost nerf that increased the cost of Strife.
- And now, an upcoming second cost nerf to Strife that eliminates its cost advantage over Force Shock.
Never has Strife ever been buffed over the years. Only nerfed.
Now, let's consider Force Shock vs. Strife:- Damage: Despite Strife's slightly higher base tooltip, Force Shock is actually much stronger.
- The Destruction Staff passive that increases the penetration of destro attacks/abilities makes up for the tooltip difference between the two.
- Force Shock is easily buffed: Dunmer, Altmer, and Nord have passives that buff Force Shock damage. Engulfing Flames will buff Force Shock. There are no Magic Damage amps in this game.
- Force Pulse has an AoE component, which applies rather frequently due to the increased ease of applying status effects on a target.
- Force Shock can apply status effects which do additional damage.
- Force Shock counts as 3 hits, which increases the rate at which "chance on damage" sets proc (Scathing, Nerien'eth, etc.)
- Force Shock's damage can be substantially buffed by an Asylum staff; there are no sets that buff Strife's damage.
- Resource sustain: After the Summerset cost nerf, Force Shock will actually have better sustain than Strife. Why? The destro staff passive that returns magicka on kills attributed to staff abilities. Since this requires a kill, it makes no difference in PvE boss fights, but it is a substantial source of sustain in low-health fights like trash pulls, vMA, vDSA, and PvP. Pre-Summerset, this was the one major advantage that Strife had.
- Utility: Strife has a heal. Crushing Shock is a ranged interrupt. There will be content where Crushing Shock is required, and here is content where the Strife heal is required. The two are not really comparable.
So my question to @ZOS_Wrobel and @ZOS_RichLambert is simple: Why would anyone use Strife in traditional PvE content where there is healer support? Sure, Strife will still see use in vMA (even though the most competitive vMA runners have already switched to Force Pulse over Strife) and Asylum (but that's really a problem with Asylum's unique design that forces healers away from the healing role, creating an "everyone-for-themselves" paradigm).
Do you remember the days pre-Morrowind, when every magicka nightblade played like a wannabe sorc, using Force Pulse as their spammable instead of Strife, their own class ability? Force Pulse is simply stronger than Strife. The reason magicka nightblades went back to using their own class-identifying still instead of a homogenized weapon skill was that Morrowind made sustain relevant again, and that gave Strife an advantage that wasn't really relevant pre-Morrowind.
Again, Force Shock is stronger than Strife. This is why everyone used Force Shock in PvE pre-Morrowind. This is why competitive vMA scores in the CwC and DB patches are done using Force Pulse. This is why for short bursty fights (no need for long-term sustain) where people want to post large parses, they use Force Pulse instead of Strife. Strife had two pillars that kept it relevant: sustain and the self-healing. In Summerset, sustain will turn from an advantage to a disadvantage (since Force Shock has a magicka refund component), and the self-healing is not relevant for a wide range of content.
This nerf is unnecessary, especially since the cost of Strife had already been nerfed in an earlier patch. And it makes Strife a subpar skill that is no longer competitive with Force Shock. Is this really what you want? For all magicka users to go around spamming Force Pulse regardless of class? To relegate a class-identifying skill to irrelevance?
@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert If you nerf the cost of Strife, at the very least, the damage of Strife needs to be made competitive, considering that Force Shock is subject to buffs and amps not available to Strife. Or... just don't nerf things that don't need to be nerfed.
This should be pinned somewhere.
@ZOS_Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
It absolutely should. If Strife is going to have it's cost raised using Force Pulse as a baseline, then it needs to have it's damage increased, it's heal increased, or a dot component added. Raising the cost without doing any of that just makes it completely subpar to Force Pulse.2 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭The heal on strife is just shockingly bad...
No it's not. It's the best HoT in the game in terms of efficiency. People are doing vMA no-death with that as the only heal.
It's a better heal than Rapid Regen (and cheaper) and it's attached to a ranged spammable damage skill which is also the cheapest one in the game apart from Ransack/Pierce. Only damage/heal skill that's arguably better is Embers but that has 5m range and it's a DoT. Not a 28m range spammable.
I'm not saying it deserved a nerf necessarily, but let's not make up *** arguments about it.
I'd like Magblade to have a non-reflectable ranged skill though. I think Cripple would make a good candidate for that.
I don’t know where you source your numbers from, but I definitely must agree that the strife heal is really bad (in PvP!). Been running this skill on my magblade for 4 years, and in combat metrics it doesn’t even exceed half the healing of refreshing, or mutagen, while having much higher uptime. Minor vitality is kind of useful, but this skill is loosing potency every patch and, even though I hat using it, I have switched to using concealed now as well because it’s just more reliable. For my gameplay, I haven’t noticed a lack in healing output as well.
To bring efficiency in PvP and PvE in line, I think it would be better to increase the healing part of the skill and therefore nerf the damage/sustain part.
Mutagen heals many people, spamming it a couple of times will cover a group of 4 easily. So it's almost an AoE HoT. Same with Refreshing Path.
You're using Swallow Soul which is only a self heal. If your self heals showed higher healing than your AoE heals, I would be very concerned.
Even in solo situation Strife heals for less.
Those are the CM reports from the first 2 fights i had after jumping to Sotha just now, both a short 1vs1. Enemies were a magsorc and a magblade, so not even very tanky targets and both times Funnel provides the weakest HoT.
Edited by Rianai on April 6, 2018 7:16PM4 -
Xeven✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »Strife has received multiple nerfs over the years.- A healing reduction nerf by making it impossible to crit a Strife heal that was sourced from a crit hit, essentially eliminating the "double crit" that made Strife a strong heal.
- Another healing nerf that reduced the number of people healed by Strife.
- A cost nerf that increased the cost of Strife.
- And now, an upcoming second cost nerf to Strife that eliminates its cost advantage over Force Shock.
Never has Strife ever been buffed over the years. Only nerfed.
Now, let's consider Force Shock vs. Strife:- Damage: Despite Strife's slightly higher base tooltip, Force Shock is actually much stronger.
- The Destruction Staff passive that increases the penetration of destro attacks/abilities makes up for the tooltip difference between the two.
- Force Shock is easily buffed: Dunmer, Altmer, and Nord have passives that buff Force Shock damage. Engulfing Flames will buff Force Shock. There are no Magic Damage amps in this game.
- Force Pulse has an AoE component, which applies rather frequently due to the increased ease of applying status effects on a target.
- Force Shock can apply status effects which do additional damage.
- Force Shock counts as 3 hits, which increases the rate at which "chance on damage" sets proc (Scathing, Nerien'eth, etc.)
- Force Shock's damage can be substantially buffed by an Asylum staff; there are no sets that buff Strife's damage.
- Resource sustain: After the Summerset cost nerf, Force Shock will actually have better sustain than Strife. Why? The destro staff passive that returns magicka on kills attributed to staff abilities. Since this requires a kill, it makes no difference in PvE boss fights, but it is a substantial source of sustain in low-health fights like trash pulls, vMA, vDSA, and PvP. Pre-Summerset, this was the one major advantage that Strife had.
- Utility: Strife has a heal. Crushing Shock is a ranged interrupt. There will be content where Crushing Shock is required, and here is content where the Strife heal is required. The two are not really comparable.
So my question to @ZOS_Wrobel and @ZOS_RichLambert is simple: Why would anyone use Strife in traditional PvE content where there is healer support? Sure, Strife will still see use in vMA (even though the most competitive vMA runners have already switched to Force Pulse over Strife) and Asylum (but that's really a problem with Asylum's unique design that forces healers away from the healing role, creating an "everyone-for-themselves" paradigm).
Do you remember the days pre-Morrowind, when every magicka nightblade played like a wannabe sorc, using Force Pulse as their spammable instead of Strife, their own class ability? Force Pulse is simply stronger than Strife. The reason magicka nightblades went back to using their own class-identifying still instead of a homogenized weapon skill was that Morrowind made sustain relevant again, and that gave Strife an advantage that wasn't really relevant pre-Morrowind.
Again, Force Shock is stronger than Strife. This is why everyone used Force Shock in PvE pre-Morrowind. This is why competitive vMA scores in the CwC and DB patches are done using Force Pulse. This is why for short bursty fights (no need for long-term sustain) where people want to post large parses, they use Force Pulse instead of Strife. Strife had two pillars that kept it relevant: sustain and the self-healing. In Summerset, sustain will turn from an advantage to a disadvantage (since Force Shock has a magicka refund component), and the self-healing is not relevant for a wide range of content.
This nerf is unnecessary, especially since the cost of Strife had already been nerfed in an earlier patch. And it makes Strife a subpar skill that is no longer competitive with Force Shock. Is this really what you want? For all magicka users to go around spamming Force Pulse regardless of class? To relegate a class-identifying skill to irrelevance?
@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert If you nerf the cost of Strife, at the very least, the damage of Strife needs to be made competitive, considering that Force Shock is subject to buffs and amps not available to Strife. Or... just don't nerf things that don't need to be nerfed.
This should be pinned somewhere.
@ZOS_Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
It absolutely should. If Strife is going to have it's cost raised using Force Pulse as a baseline, then it needs to have it's damage increased, it's heal increased, or a dot component added. Raising the cost without doing any of that just makes it completely subpar to Force Pulse.
I bet you 10k gold you still use Strife.1 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭The heal on strife is just shockingly bad...
No it's not. It's the best HoT in the game in terms of efficiency. People are doing vMA no-death with that as the only heal.
It's a better heal than Rapid Regen (and cheaper) and it's attached to a ranged spammable damage skill which is also the cheapest one in the game apart from Ransack/Pierce. Only damage/heal skill that's arguably better is Embers but that has 5m range and it's a DoT. Not a 28m range spammable.
I'm not saying it deserved a nerf necessarily, but let's not make up *** arguments about it.
I'd like Magblade to have a non-reflectable ranged skill though. I think Cripple would make a good candidate for that.
I don’t know where you source your numbers from, but I definitely must agree that the strife heal is really bad (in PvP!). Been running this skill on my magblade for 4 years, and in combat metrics it doesn’t even exceed half the healing of refreshing, or mutagen, while having much higher uptime. Minor vitality is kind of useful, but this skill is loosing potency every patch and, even though I hat using it, I have switched to using concealed now as well because it’s just more reliable. For my gameplay, I haven’t noticed a lack in healing output as well.
To bring efficiency in PvP and PvE in line, I think it would be better to increase the healing part of the skill and therefore nerf the damage/sustain part.
Mutagen heals many people, spamming it a couple of times will cover a group of 4 easily. So it's almost an AoE HoT. Same with Refreshing Path.
You're using Swallow Soul which is only a self heal. If your self heals showed higher healing than your AoE heals, I would be very concerned.
Even in solo situation Strife heals for less.
Those are the CM reports from the first 2 fights i had after jumping to Sotha just now, both a short 1vs1. Enemies were a magsorc and a magblade, so not even very tanky targets and both times Funnel provides the weakest HoT.
This. @Maulkin I’m sorry I forgot to mention I always play solo, on rare occasions duo, so all heals almost exclusively apply to myself.
It really isn’t as strong as you say. I mean do the Maths: Your funnel/ swallow hits for maybe 6k (which is high!), which will leave a 1,5 k dot every two seconds on you. Rapid regeneration can easily do 18k healing over 16 seconds, being more than 2k/sec on every effected target. Path does around 1,2k healing per second... not to mention your funnel heal will diminish with enemies resistances.2 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭The heal on strife is just shockingly bad...
No it's not. It's the best HoT in the game in terms of efficiency. People are doing vMA no-death with that as the only heal.
It's a better heal than Rapid Regen (and cheaper) and it's attached to a ranged spammable damage skill which is also the cheapest one in the game apart from Ransack/Pierce. Only damage/heal skill that's arguably better is Embers but that has 5m range and it's a DoT. Not a 28m range spammable.
I'm not saying it deserved a nerf necessarily, but let's not make up *** arguments about it.
I'd like Magblade to have a non-reflectable ranged skill though. I think Cripple would make a good candidate for that.
I don’t know where you source your numbers from, but I definitely must agree that the strife heal is really bad (in PvP!). Been running this skill on my magblade for 4 years, and in combat metrics it doesn’t even exceed half the healing of refreshing, or mutagen, while having much higher uptime. Minor vitality is kind of useful, but this skill is loosing potency every patch and, even though I hat using it, I have switched to using concealed now as well because it’s just more reliable. For my gameplay, I haven’t noticed a lack in healing output as well.
To bring efficiency in PvP and PvE in line, I think it would be better to increase the healing part of the skill and therefore nerf the damage/sustain part.
Mutagen heals many people, spamming it a couple of times will cover a group of 4 easily. So it's almost an AoE HoT. Same with Refreshing Path.
You're using Swallow Soul which is only a self heal. If your self heals showed higher healing than your AoE heals, I would be very concerned.
Even in solo situation Strife heals for less.
Those are the CM reports from the first 2 fights i had after jumping to Sotha just now, both a short 1vs1. Enemies were a magsorc and a magblade, so not even very tanky targets and both times Funnel provides the weakest HoT.
Bet you 10k gold you have terrible damage. Strife heals are very good if you have good base damage, as it’s a % of the damage done.1 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm currently running low (tooltip-) damage indeed (skoria carries anyway), at least compared to what i was running previously, but it is certainly not "terrible", and the difference in healing is barely noticeable. Higher magicka and spell damage don't only buff Strife, it buffs all other healing too, so relatively they stay the same. Of course if you run something like Spinner + War Maiden - which only buffs damage - the favour will swing towards Strife, but with other builds it can be the other way arround too. My current build is fairly balanced in this regard imo.
Also keep in mind - this are no CP numbers (second fight even unbuffed). CP PvP will result in higher numbers obviously - but again, this applies to all healing. Only when fighting low CP targets or someone with bad CP distribution it can heavily favour Strife, but that's an imbalanced situation by definition, so not something that should be relevant for skill balance.Edited by Rianai on April 7, 2018 10:37AM1 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm currently running low (tooltip-) damage indeed (skoria carries anyway), at least compared to what i was running previously, but it is certainly not "terrible", and the difference in healing is barely noticeable. Higher magicka and spell damage don't only buff Strife, it buffs all other healing too, so relatively they stay the same. Of course if you run something like Spinner + War Maiden - which only buffs damage - the favour will swing towards Strife, but with other builds it can be the other way arround too. My current build is fairly balanced in this regard imo.
Also keep in mind - this are no CP numbers (second fight even unbuffed). CP PvP will result in higher numbers obviously - but again, this applies to all healing. Only when fighting low CP targets or someone with bad CP distribution it can heavily favour Strife, but that's an imbalanced situation by definition, so not something that should be relevant for skill balance.
CP does indeed change things, due to how almost everyone’s forced into using proc sets to stay competitive.0 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm currently running low (tooltip-) damage indeed (skoria carries anyway), at least compared to what i was running previously, but it is certainly not "terrible", and the difference in healing is barely noticeable. Higher magicka and spell damage don't only buff Strife, it buffs all other healing too, so relatively they stay the same. Of course if you run something like Spinner + War Maiden - which only buffs damage - the favour will swing towards Strife, but with other builds it can be the other way arround too. My current build is fairly balanced in this regard imo.
Also keep in mind - this are no CP numbers (second fight even unbuffed). CP PvP will result in higher numbers obviously - but again, this applies to all healing. Only when fighting low CP targets or someone with bad CP distribution it can heavily favour Strife, but that's an imbalanced situation by definition, so not something that should be relevant for skill balance.
CP does indeed change things, due to how almost everyone’s forced into using proc sets to stay competitive.
Also heavy armor and argonian plays a big part as well. When I played heavy armor argonian magblade my strife heals would crit for 3k sometimes but most of the time would be about 2.2k to 2.5k. now that I play dark elf again in light armor my strife on average ticks for about 900 to 1100. And I run a regular build spinner/riposte/skoria. It's not great but it's not horrible either0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The heal on strife is just shockingly bad...
No it's not. It's the best HoT in the game in terms of efficiency. People are doing vMA no-death with that as the only heal.
It's a better heal than Rapid Regen (and cheaper) and it's attached to a ranged spammable damage skill which is also the cheapest one in the game apart from Ransack/Pierce. Only damage/heal skill that's arguably better is Embers but that has 5m range and it's a DoT. Not a 28m range spammable.
I'm not saying it deserved a nerf necessarily, but let's not make up *** arguments about it.
I'd like Magblade to have a non-reflectable ranged skill though. I think Cripple would make a good candidate for that.
I don’t know where you source your numbers from, but I definitely must agree that the strife heal is really bad (in PvP!). Been running this skill on my magblade for 4 years, and in combat metrics it doesn’t even exceed half the healing of refreshing, or mutagen, while having much higher uptime. Minor vitality is kind of useful, but this skill is loosing potency every patch and, even though I hat using it, I have switched to using concealed now as well because it’s just more reliable. For my gameplay, I haven’t noticed a lack in healing output as well.
To bring efficiency in PvP and PvE in line, I think it would be better to increase the healing part of the skill and therefore nerf the damage/sustain part.
Mutagen heals many people, spamming it a couple of times will cover a group of 4 easily. So it's almost an AoE HoT. Same with Refreshing Path.
You're using Swallow Soul which is only a self heal. If your self heals showed higher healing than your AoE heals, I would be very concerned.
Even in solo situation Strife heals for less.
Those are the CM reports from the first 2 fights i had after jumping to Sotha just now, both a short 1vs1. Enemies were a magsorc and a magblade, so not even very tanky targets and both times Funnel provides the weakest HoT.
As other's have mentioned, heals from Swallow scale from your damage/penetration. I'm sure you know this already. If those stats are low, you get little heals from it and Rapid Regen appears better.
If you're running a heavy armor build with low penetration and no Ele Drain, then that explains it. If you're running a light armour build with one damage set, then the situation basically reverses.Edited by Maulkin on April 7, 2018 12:26PMEU | PC | AD0 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭I AM running light armor with a damage set (Juli) and piercing mark, so yea ...Edited by Rianai on April 7, 2018 12:48PM1 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Still gonna use Swallow, not gonna let go of War Maiden bonus.
Vitality is cool, a convenient HoT is convenient, and a bit more ult regen certainly is useful. Can also backbar Cripple and Siphoning, which means more Assassin skills on front for crit bonus.
Strife was too cheap in PvE, NBs have the luxury of light rotations, and I will see which skill is more efficient WHEN I HAVE ACTUAL NUMBERS.0 -
Jeezye✭✭✭✭✭Well guys let’s stop arguing about strife being a good skill at the moment - everyone here knows that. This thread is about what can be done to strife in reaction to its cost increase. Since this nerf comes from PvE, buffing the damage would result in no change or even a buff to magblade. That makes it pretty obvious that it’s the healing component that should be adjusted. It could even be changed to be applied before resistance and battle spirit damage debuff to be in a better spot in PvP.3
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ChefZero✭✭✭✭.Well guys let’s stop arguing about strife being a good skill at the moment - everyone here knows that. This thread is about what can be done to strife in reaction to its cost increase. Since this nerf comes from PvE, buffing the damage would result in no change or even a buff to magblade. That makes it pretty obvious that it’s the healing component that should be adjusted. It could even be changed to be applied before resistance and battle spirit damage debuff to be in a better spot in PvP.
Yes. Easiest way is to separate the heal. So strife does x damage, heals y over z seconds. Than the skill is also easier to balance cause they can change every value like they want.PC EU - DC only0 -
Subversus✭✭✭✭✭
✭thankyourat wrote: »I'm currently running low (tooltip-) damage indeed (skoria carries anyway), at least compared to what i was running previously, but it is certainly not "terrible", and the difference in healing is barely noticeable. Higher magicka and spell damage don't only buff Strife, it buffs all other healing too, so relatively they stay the same. Of course if you run something like Spinner + War Maiden - which only buffs damage - the favour will swing towards Strife, but with other builds it can be the other way arround too. My current build is fairly balanced in this regard imo.
Also keep in mind - this are no CP numbers (second fight even unbuffed). CP PvP will result in higher numbers obviously - but again, this applies to all healing. Only when fighting low CP targets or someone with bad CP distribution it can heavily favour Strife, but that's an imbalanced situation by definition, so not something that should be relevant for skill balance.
CP does indeed change things, due to how almost everyone’s forced into using proc sets to stay competitive.
Also heavy armor and argonian plays a big part as well. When I played heavy armor argonian magblade my strife heals would crit for 3k sometimes but most of the time would be about 2.2k to 2.5k. now that I play dark elf again in light armor my strife on average ticks for about 900 to 1100. And I run a regular build spinner/riposte/skoria. It's not great but it's not horrible either
Oh yeah, my heavy armor argonian setup sure makes me take a *** ton more healing than usual. I even changed up my CP so that I’ll play to the strengths of the class/race combo. What you get is a heavy armor healing machine that puts out some nast burst, lol.0 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well guys let’s stop arguing about strife being a good skill at the moment - everyone here knows that. This thread is about what can be done to strife in reaction to its cost increase. Since this nerf comes from PvE, buffing the damage would result in no change or even a buff to magblade. That makes it pretty obvious that it’s the healing component that should be adjusted. It could even be changed to be applied before resistance and battle spirit damage debuff to be in a better spot in PvP.
bring back the cost reduction cp and be done with it. they're only considering the change because magblades can more easily maintain their pace while other classes have to go brain dead while holding left click. the fast paced combat is what i personally really liked about the game, slowing the combat with morrowind has been a massive negative.
i mean seriously, who the *** wants to stand around and heavy attack it's a really boring mechanic for sustain really boring.
start reducing the costs of all skills or bring back cost reduction cp, one of the two.Edited by Lucky28 on April 7, 2018 7:32PMInvictus1