Let's talk about Warden (Summerset edition)

MLGProPlayer

Soleya wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a warden tank I'm on the fence here. They removed my access to an aoe major breach and fracture, which is a big deal imo, but they also made arctic wind a good tank self heal which kinda counters things.

I'm very disappointed to see no changes to swarm or bird of prey though.

I didn't see the change for subterranean assault...is it's just major fracture after patch?

Yes. The buff duration has also been reduced to 5s from 10s.

And magicka warden lost stun while gaining major fracture. PvP nerf with no PvE buff (other than in solo content)...

Soleya

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a warden tank I'm on the fence here. They removed my access to an aoe major breach and fracture, which is a big deal imo, but they also made arctic wind a good tank self heal which kinda counters things.

I'm very disappointed to see no changes to swarm or bird of prey though.

I didn't see the change for subterranean assault...is it's just major fracture after patch?

Yes. The buff duration has also been reduced to 5s from 10s.

And magicka warden lost stun while gaining major fracture. PvP nerf with no PvE buff (other than in solo content)...

Thanks, I only saw the change for the magicka morph.

So nerf to warden tanks and magden builds and buff to trash pulls and other players.

Waffennacht

So coming from Mag Warden perspective.

I @#$_&ing hated that stun. It didn't help me land my burst, because I had to land my burst to stun, and with delayed abilities nor execute it was very difficult to take advantage of the stun. So I had to slot a hard CC to compensate. Well again, I want my stun coming before the land my burst, or after to prevent their recovery during my delays, but if shalk stunned and they CC break immediately, well now they have immunity while the bird or pulse tried to finish them.

Removing the stun gives me complete control when I CC, because I already established a need for a different hard CC for myself.

Giving the ability major breach is actually awesome for PvP, while we already had access via Destro well now it's an AoE debuff and helps my whole team. (Also doesn't mess up their CCs such as Eclipse)

Though everything changes

DPShiro

Chufu wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ordraveeb17_ESO wrote: »

maybe it's done because of magDK, they cry all the time that they are the worst class and have more nerfs.... now they are not )))
Players: nerf NB
ZoS: ok.... we nerf magwardens )))

Warden was never worse than DK. We'd be happy with a buff to DK levels...

Depends on... I am pretty sure a MagWarden can do more DPS than a MagDK, but not really sure about that. But Warden can stay range, while the MagDK has to be in Melee-Range.

And MagDK get a little buff with summerset (Every time you apply burning/poison, you gain 500 magicka or stamina, this has a 5 seconds cooldown.).... I can't see a MagWarden DPS buff.

.....

xaraan

Eh, my warden is fine in PvP even with bird dodge-able. And I won't miss the knock down from Shalks at all, I'd rather have the armor debuff.

I do think they could use some improvements, but I also think the class isn't so much "bad" as it's just falling in the category of "hard to play well" which many classes have been in since the game launched. Often times someone would say X class is horrible, yet there were still players able to perform at the top of the game with them.

But the game is designed around accessibility, so I think it's reasonable to be concerned that X class is harder to play well than Y class.

Hopefully they do adjust a couple things for Wardens to make that correction, but those Shalks and Bird changes don't really effect it either way IMO.

MinarasLaure

I'll wait until summerset kicks and if those are all the changes zos have for the warden, I'll respec and I'll go full stamina.
There is no point in playing magden for whoever wants to be a dps.

Lynx7386

Soleya wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a warden tank I'm on the fence here. They removed my access to an aoe major breach and fracture, which is a big deal imo, but they also made arctic wind a good tank self heal which kinda counters things.

I'm very disappointed to see no changes to swarm or bird of prey though.

I didn't see the change for subterranean assault...is it's just major fracture after patch?

Yea, only major fracture now (or breach if you go with the mag version), cant get both debuffs in one ability. That was one of the prime points about warden tanking, the ability to apply those two debuffs to an entire group of enemies in one cast. Now that's gone.

Essentially both morphs of shalks got nerfed, and I'll bet you anything it's because of all the pvp complaints.

MLGProPlayer

xaraan wrote: »

Eh, my warden is fine in PvP even with bird dodge-able. And I won't miss the knock down from Shalks at all, I'd rather have the armor debuff.

I do think they could use some improvements, but I also think the class isn't so much "bad" as it's just falling in the category of "hard to play well" which many classes have been in since the game launched. Often times someone would say X class is horrible, yet there were still players able to perform at the top of the game with them.

But the game is designed around accessibility, so I think it's reasonable to be concerned that X class is harder to play well than Y class.

Hopefully they do adjust a couple things for Wardens to make that correction, but those Shalks and Bird changes don't really effect it either way IMO.

It's not hard to play well. It's legitimately bad. It hits like a wet noodle. Not even the best players in the world with BiS gear and perfect rotations have been able to get any use out of the class.

MLGProPlayer

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a warden tank I'm on the fence here. They removed my access to an aoe major breach and fracture, which is a big deal imo, but they also made arctic wind a good tank self heal which kinda counters things.

I'm very disappointed to see no changes to swarm or bird of prey though.

I didn't see the change for subterranean assault...is it's just major fracture after patch?

Yea, only major fracture now (or breach if you go with the mag version), cant get both debuffs in one ability. That was one of the prime points about warden tanking, the ability to apply those two debuffs to an entire group of enemies in one cast. Now that's gone.

Essentially both morphs of shalks got nerfed, and I'll bet you anything it's because of all the pvp complaints.

Good thing we got PvE buffs to compensate... oh wait!

Ron_Burgundy_79

Waffennacht wrote: »

So coming from Mag Warden perspective.

I @#$_&ing hated that stun. It didn't help me land my burst, because I had to land my burst to stun, and with delayed abilities nor execute it was very difficult to take advantage of the stun. So I had to slot a hard CC to compensate. Well again, I want my stun coming before the land my burst, or after to prevent their recovery during my delays, but if shalk stunned and they CC break immediately, well now they have immunity while the bird or pulse tried to finish them.

Removing the stun gives me complete control when I CC, because I already established a need for a different hard CC for myself.

Giving the ability major breach is actually awesome for PvP, while we already had access via Destro well now it's an AoE debuff and helps my whole team. (Also doesn't mess up their CCs such as Eclipse)

Though everything changes

100% disagree. It's like taking the cc away from frag. Now I have to drop one of my slotted skills on an already crowded bar to have access to a cc. If I wanted access to major breach, I would slot elemental drain.

This change is a slight pve buff during trash pulls. That's it. As a solo/duo player, it's absolutely horrendous.

dodgehopper_ESO

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

After acknowledging numerous times that magicka warden DPS was underperforming, ZOS now had the opportunity to fix the class. So what do they do? Nothing.

The class has had both of its "OP" PvP abilities nerfed now (Cliff Rracer is dodgeable and Shalks no longer stun), making warden one of the weaker PvP classes. Great, now they can buff PvE since the excuse was always that PvE buffs would make them too strong in PvP. Nope. Nothing, just a mediocre solo buff (where wardens already excelled). Now warden just sucks in PvE AND PvP.

Seriously ZOS, why do you hate the warden? Honest question.

I called this a long time ago. When I saw Warden come on the scene I thought 'Gee this is a lot like I remember Templar being' followed by 'They're going to nerf it to the ground'. Mark my words: They don't like DK that much either. Everything about this game is pushing toward being a DD. Everything. The classes that don't lean that way are gonna get ground into a fine silty powder before there's a chance of them being decent again. That's my optimistic view anyway.

Morgul667

Some changes are truely hard to understand

Hope it turns out for the best but we need testing

Hope ZOS will listen to feedbacks (after tests , not the next morning forum mayhem that follows every big change announcement)

casparian

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

After acknowledging numerous times that magicka warden DPS was underperforming, ZOS now had the opportunity to fix the class. So what do they do? Nothing.

The class has had both of its "OP" PvP abilities nerfed now (Cliff Rracer is dodgeable and Shalks no longer stun), making warden one of the weaker PvP classes. Great, now they can buff PvE since the excuse was always that PvE buffs would make them too strong in PvP. Nope. Nothing, just a mediocre solo buff (where wardens already excelled). Now warden just sucks in PvE AND PvP.

Seriously ZOS, why do you hate the warden? Honest question.

I called this a long time ago. When I saw Warden come on the scene I thought 'Gee this is a lot like I remember Templar being' followed by 'They're going to nerf it to the ground'. Mark my words: They don't like DK that much either. Everything about this game is pushing toward being a DD. Everything. The classes that don't lean that way are gonna get ground into a fine silty powder before there's a chance of them being decent again. That's my optimistic view anyway.

This is a weird time to be saying that ZOS is pushing everyone to be a DD. This patch has more tank/healer-friendly class changes than we've seen since at least Homestead, if not longer.

Peekachu99

Soleya wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a warden tank I'm on the fence here. They removed my access to an aoe major breach and fracture, which is a big deal imo, but they also made arctic wind a good tank self heal which kinda counters things.

I'm very disappointed to see no changes to swarm or bird of prey though.

I didn't see the change for subterranean assault...is it's just major fracture after patch?

Stam gets major fracture, mag gets major breach.

Vaoh

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So coming from Mag Warden perspective.

I @#$_&ing hated that stun. It didn't help me land my burst, because I had to land my burst to stun, and with delayed abilities nor execute it was very difficult to take advantage of the stun. So I had to slot a hard CC to compensate. Well again, I want my stun coming before the land my burst, or after to prevent their recovery during my delays, but if shalk stunned and they CC break immediately, well now they have immunity while the bird or pulse tried to finish them.

Removing the stun gives me complete control when I CC, because I already established a need for a different hard CC for myself.

Giving the ability major breach is actually awesome for PvP, while we already had access via Destro well now it's an AoE debuff and helps my whole team. (Also doesn't mess up their CCs such as Eclipse)

Though everything changes

100% disagree. It's like taking the cc away from frag. Now I have to drop one of my slotted skills on an already crowded bar to have access to a cc. If I wanted access to major breach, I would slot elemental drain.

This change is a slight pve buff during trash pulls. That's it. As a solo/duo player, it's absolutely horrendous.

^^ pretty much comes it up.

Apparently all Mag PvP builds should be running Destructive Touch. Now Sorcs and Wardens have both lost their CCs as secondary effects.

dodgehopper_ESO

casparian wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

After acknowledging numerous times that magicka warden DPS was underperforming, ZOS now had the opportunity to fix the class. So what do they do? Nothing.

The class has had both of its "OP" PvP abilities nerfed now (Cliff Rracer is dodgeable and Shalks no longer stun), making warden one of the weaker PvP classes. Great, now they can buff PvE since the excuse was always that PvE buffs would make them too strong in PvP. Nope. Nothing, just a mediocre solo buff (where wardens already excelled). Now warden just sucks in PvE AND PvP.

Seriously ZOS, why do you hate the warden? Honest question.

I called this a long time ago. When I saw Warden come on the scene I thought 'Gee this is a lot like I remember Templar being' followed by 'They're going to nerf it to the ground'. Mark my words: They don't like DK that much either. Everything about this game is pushing toward being a DD. Everything. The classes that don't lean that way are gonna get ground into a fine silty powder before there's a chance of them being decent again. That's my optimistic view anyway.

This is a weird time to be saying that ZOS is pushing everyone to be a DD. This patch has more tank/healer-friendly class changes than we've seen since at least Homestead, if not longer.

I'm talking about general trajectory - they've sucked the soul out of tanking slowly and painfully for years. I would say tanking got some good and some bad here. Take Dragon Knights for instance, they now get to joyfully split the effects of that lovely igneous shield across two separate morphs. YAY.

Peekachu99

Waffennacht wrote: »

So coming from Mag Warden perspective.

I @#$_&ing hated that stun. It didn't help me land my burst, because I had to land my burst to stun, and with delayed abilities nor execute it was very difficult to take advantage of the stun. So I had to slot a hard CC to compensate. Well again, I want my stun coming before the land my burst, or after to prevent their recovery during my delays, but if shalk stunned and they CC break immediately, well now they have immunity while the bird or pulse tried to finish them.

Removing the stun gives me complete control when I CC, because I already established a need for a different hard CC for myself.

Giving the ability major breach is actually awesome for PvP, while we already had access via Destro well now it's an AoE debuff and helps my whole team. (Also doesn't mess up their CCs such as Eclipse)

Though everything changes

I was looking at it the same way. Shalks > Frost Clench (or gripping shards) > Time Stop = death?

Warden is a fantastic class if you don’t have blinders on for that extra 5K DPS that isn’t even necessary in Trials. But there’s just too much hyperbole surrounding the class. Remember how garbage they were till someone posted a beastly Stamden build? Now all you see is Stamdens in Cyro running meta? They have the best utility in the game and access to nearly every buff in the game. Magdens do quite well with Necropotence (though I do get the frustration over pets in general—Shadowrend is a better idea since I think it can’t be killed?), and are invaluable in 4 mans. Their sheer utility shouldn’t be overlooked or tunnelvisioned for the sake of raw numbers.

MLGProPlayer

Morgul667 wrote: »

Some changes are truely hard to understand

Hope it turns out for the best but we need testing

Hope ZOS will listen to feedbacks (after tests , not the next morning forum mayhem that follows every big change announcement)

People have been giving constructive feedback on the warden every single PTS cycle. Wrobel will always pop into the warden feedback thread and say "we hear ya and we know the warden is uderperforming". Then the next balance patch rolls around and wardens don't recieve a single buff. Rinse and repeat.

Most people have given up on the class since they know ZOS doesn't care about them.

MLGProPlayer

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So coming from Mag Warden perspective.

I @#$_&ing hated that stun. It didn't help me land my burst, because I had to land my burst to stun, and with delayed abilities nor execute it was very difficult to take advantage of the stun. So I had to slot a hard CC to compensate. Well again, I want my stun coming before the land my burst, or after to prevent their recovery during my delays, but if shalk stunned and they CC break immediately, well now they have immunity while the bird or pulse tried to finish them.

Removing the stun gives me complete control when I CC, because I already established a need for a different hard CC for myself.

Giving the ability major breach is actually awesome for PvP, while we already had access via Destro well now it's an AoE debuff and helps my whole team. (Also doesn't mess up their CCs such as Eclipse)

Though everything changes

I was looking at it the same way. Shalks > Frost Clench (or gripping shards) > Time Stop = death?

Warden is a fantastic class if you don’t have blinders on for that extra 5K DPS that isn’t even necessary in Trials. But there’s just too much hyperbole surrounding the class. Remember how garbage they were till someone posted a beastly Stamden build? Now all you see is Stamdens in Cyro running meta? They have the best utility in the game and access to nearly every buff in the game. Magdens do quite well with Necropotence (though I do get the frustration over pets in general—Shadowrend is a better idea since I think it can’t be killed?), and are invaluable in 4 mans. Their sheer utility shouldn’t be overlooked or tunnelvisioned for the sake of raw numbers.

They are virtually non-existent in vet trial groups. They'll be gone from PvP now too.

mb10

Ive played ESO from the start and have recently made a magwarden.

That stun in PVP from fissure is SO SO important to the class that removing that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

If anything, it should stun more than 1 person!!

Come on ZOS, the PTS isnt even out yet, do NOT implement this nerf.

MLGProPlayer

mb10 wrote: »

Ive played ESO from the start and have recently made a magwarden.

That stun in PVP from fissure is SO SO important to the class that removing that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

If anything, it should stun more than 1 person!!

Come on ZOS, the PTS isnt even out yet, do NOT implement this nerf.

I'd understand if they nerfed their PvP damage so they can buff them in PvE since apparently a class isn't allowed to be good at both. But ZOS didn't do that. The class is now awful in both modes. It's as if ZOS doesn't want anyone to play warden.

Maura_Neysa

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

SRTtoZ wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Even to get their marginal DPS, warden is forced to use the dumb bear ultimate. That's a non-starter for me cause I hate pets. I'd like to see them nerf the bear and buff other damage skills.

It should be baked into the class not the ultimate. You need to have it on both bars too right? So it doesn't un-summon?

Yep. Such an annoying "class defining skill."

For something that requires a double slot and is a single target ability only, it needs to hit much harder to be useful. Instead, it doesn't even bring wardens close to the DPS of other classes.

For someone who mains a Warden you baffle me. Stam Warden is the second hardest hitting class next to Stamblade. None of the listed changes will effect that. (Unless other classes are getting that much stronger) Yes Mag wardens lose there stun, but the are trading it for AoE Major Breach, hardly a complete nerf. Really, the only Wardens who have room to complain are Tanks. Thats if they actually ran Sub Assault. I didn't, no room for a de-buff that most everyone had access to. Warden like DK tanks have access to more skills than they had room for, that one didn't make the cut for me.

Soleya wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a warden tank I'm on the fence here. They removed my access to an aoe major breach and fracture, which is a big deal imo, but they also made arctic wind a good tank self heal which kinda counters things.

I'm very disappointed to see no changes to swarm or bird of prey though.

I didn't see the change for subterranean assault...is it's just major fracture after patch?

Sub will be just Fracture, Fissure loses the stun and gains Breach.

MLGProPlayer

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

SRTtoZ wrote: »

Kanar wrote: »

Even to get their marginal DPS, warden is forced to use the dumb bear ultimate. That's a non-starter for me cause I hate pets. I'd like to see them nerf the bear and buff other damage skills.

It should be baked into the class not the ultimate. You need to have it on both bars too right? So it doesn't un-summon?

Yep. Such an annoying "class defining skill."

For something that requires a double slot and is a single target ability only, it needs to hit much harder to be useful. Instead, it doesn't even bring wardens close to the DPS of other classes.

For someone who mains a Warden you baffle me. Stam Warden is the second hardest hitting class next to Stamblade. None of the listed changes will effect that. (Unless other classes are getting that much stronger) Yes Mag wardens lose there stun, but the are trading it for AoE Major Breach, hardly a complete nerf. Really, the only Wardens who have room to complain are Tanks. Thats if they actually ran Sub Assault. I didn't, no room for a de-buff that most everyone had access to. Warden like DK tanks have access to more skills than they had room for, that one didn't make the cut for me.

Warden is not the second hardest hitting PvE stamina class (although it's close enough considering all stamina classes use the same abilities ). And magicka warden is by far the weakest magicka class. It parses a good 7k+ behind sorc amd NB with the bear ult, and 10k+ if you swap bear with destro ult.

You can count the number of wardens on PvE leader boards with one hand. The class is not in a good place right now in PvE and these changes do nothing to address that. All they did was nerf them in PvP.

Maura_Neysa

Chufu wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ordraveeb17_ESO wrote: »

maybe it's done because of magDK, they cry all the time that they are the worst class and have more nerfs.... now they are not )))
Players: nerf NB
ZoS: ok.... we nerf magwardens )))

Warden was never worse than DK. We'd be happy with a buff to DK levels...

Depends on... I am pretty sure a MagWarden can do more DPS than a MagDK, but not really sure about that. But Warden can stay range, while the MagDK has to be in Melee-Range.

And MagDK get a little buff with summerset (Every time you apply burning/poison, you gain 500 magicka or stamina, this has a 5 seconds cooldown.).... I can't see a MagWarden DPS buff.

They both do around 35-38k solo parse. Magplar is also right there. Warden was/ is worse than DK because its an "on timer" rotation which sucks, especially on console where we dont get idiot proof buff timers. Though yes MargWardens get range which is worth a lot in PvP

Lynx7386

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

After acknowledging numerous times that magicka warden DPS was underperforming, ZOS now had the opportunity to fix the class. So what do they do? Nothing.

The class has had both of its "OP" PvP abilities nerfed now (Cliff Rracer is dodgeable and Shalks no longer stun), making warden one of the weaker PvP classes. Great, now they can buff PvE since the excuse was always that PvE buffs would make them too strong in PvP. Nope. Nothing, just a mediocre solo buff (where wardens already excelled). Now warden just sucks in PvE AND PvP.

Seriously ZOS, why do you hate the warden? Honest question.

I called this a long time ago. When I saw Warden come on the scene I thought 'Gee this is a lot like I remember Templar being' followed by 'They're going to nerf it to the ground'. Mark my words: They don't like DK that much either. Everything about this game is pushing toward being a DD. Everything. The classes that don't lean that way are gonna get ground into a fine silty powder before there's a chance of them being decent again. That's my optimistic view anyway.

This is a weird time to be saying that ZOS is pushing everyone to be a DD. This patch has more tank/healer-friendly class changes than we've seen since at least Homestead, if not longer.

I'm talking about general trajectory - they've sucked the soul out of tanking slowly and painfully for years. I would say tanking got some good and some bad here. Take Dragon Knights for instance, they now get to joyfully split the effects of that lovely igneous shield across two separate morphs. YAY.

You're wrong there. Igneous shield still has major mending and has a more powerful damage shield. Fragmented shield simply has a longer-lasting major mending buff (5 seconds instead of 2.5), meaning it's better for DK healers.

DK tanking didnt get worse this patch, it got better, especially if you take into consideration that they will have even MORE resource recovery now thanks to the combustion changes. They'll also have an aoe heal to add to their repertoire with cinder storm.

Tasear

aliyavana wrote: »

wardens are bis for nature rp, please nerf

Bosmers love nature ...

Tasear

One of these previews noted gate will now do damage too.

Lynx7386

I definitely like the changes to arctic wind/morphs. I've been saying since morrowind beta that 10% up front + 10% over time is not even close to sufficient for a tank's emergency self heal. I'm hoping that when they said it was being increased by 20% that they mean it'll be 30% of your max health + 10% over time, and not just 20% max health + 10% over time. 30% would put it on par with the new dark cloak, clannfear heal, and dragon's blood (in dire cases).

I'm a little disappointed they increased the cost of shimmering shield. I think it would have been a better fix to remove or reduce the magicka return on absorbed projectiles, instead of increasing the cost of the skill overall. This just makes it harder to use for tanks, who are the ones that need it most. They should reduce the cost and just remove the magicka return, it's a convoluted ability at this point.

The changes to swinging vines wont really make them any more used by anyone, IMO - healers or otherwise. The ability itself needs to be entirely reworked, the targeting is terrible,t he healing amount is terrible, and there are other ways to generate ultimate. I'd much rather see this used as a gap closer (self pull to enemy) for at least one morph to help out the damage builds for warden, and have the other morph act more like guard or something, linking you to a player. It'd be really cool if it linked you to one other player (like guard), had a longer range (28m or so), and 'shared' all healing received between the two. That'd make it better for healers to use when cast on tanks, and tanks could cast it on healers or dps to share healing with them for survival (especially with a new 30% max hp heal on the tank).

Bird of prey still needs to be looked at, the 10 second duration is completely insufficient for damage dealers - nightblades have basically the same ability and it lasts for 20 seconds and has a massive burst damage added in that can be cast up to 3 times per activation. Having this thing stuck at 10 seconds is pathetic.

Swarm, fetcher infection, and growing swarm all need to be looked at as well. Swarm's damage is pretty pitiful as far as DoTs go. Fetcher infection really should be a stamina morph, dealing disease damage over time - the current functionality of increased damage on every other cast is fine IMO, though a little uninspired. Growing swarm is terrible, and should be a ground cast aoe that gains radius and damage over time not unlike hurricane, such would befit the name and the playstyle of wardens far more appropriately than the piece of shalk dung it is right now.

Cadbury

I'm curious to see if Wardy has a class rep who'll go to bat for them. I see the other classes have alot of players leaping to their aid. But Warden? Not so much.

VexingArcanist

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder if they even play test the classes.

Fixed.