Alliances their warcrimes

Nestor

War is just State Sanctioned Murder.

zaria

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The person saying Ebonheart committed a war-crime by aiding the Veiled Heritance doesn't know what a war-crime is. Aiding an enemy of your enemy is not a war-crime. A war-crime is crossing the line by doing something particularly cruel for the same relative effectiveness as more humane options, harming large numbers of innocents intentionally, and in the case of ESO's world, using necromancy as a tool for your war.

Ebonheart is the best alliance for the people who want to take pride in their choice because it never has (I think) committed any despicable acts. They don't have any rogues running around using necromancy, trying to slaughter an entire generation of babies, stealing skins, or destroying harmless villages. The worst thing I can remember anyone from Ebonheart doing for the war is unleashing Balreth, but Balreth was a tool of war that set fire to a boat and that was about it, and then they went to special effort to seal him away again.

Not sure if supplying an enemy of an enemy who do war crime is an war crime in itself, pretty sure its not by the original definition.
Add that if the veiled Heritance had won the dominion had fell apart effectively pulled them out of Cyriodil, it was an too tempting option to leave alone.

Don't have much good to say about the Ebonheart pact or rather the Dumer who is also the lead race mainly because of slavery. And yes if I was the queen I would executed all involved in the Shadowfern raid, not only was it an war crime but it might be possible to get the Argonian to switch side to the Dominion or at least pull out of the pact go neutral
Again showing how the VH was idiots on an massive scale.

TelvanniWizard

Nobody should charge the Pact for slavery. The slavers are houses Dres and Telvanni. Dres agreed to stop slavery, and, if they still have slaves, it´s in an illegal way. We Telvanni, on the other hand, refused to enter the Pact, so Ebonheart is not the ones to inculpate for slavery. Actually, the Pact forbade it so...

psychotrip

Delta1038 wrote: »

I have often wonder this myself, each of them has noble and honorable figures and each have their dishonorable or merciless figures. All I can really say without thinking more about it is a quote fron West Wing, “All wars are crimes”. I will try to organize some info and post more specifics later though.

It's because they needed a contrived way to villainize each faction so the opposing side can feel justified. The problem is they stopped there, without really fleshing these events out, showing them from multiple angles, or making them fit within the world they've created.

The result is the inconsistency you mentioned. With better writers, you could most certainly do this, showcasing the complexities of the leaders, or demonstrating how they can't control everything that happens. You could discover the context of these events, discovering a sympathetic motivation behind these still despicable actions. There's a lot of ways to create the right amount of faction-hatred and faction-pride while remaining consistent.

VaranisArano

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The person saying Ebonheart committed a war-crime by aiding the Veiled Heritance doesn't know what a war-crime is. Aiding an enemy of your enemy is not a war-crime. A war-crime is crossing the line by doing something particularly cruel for the same relative effectiveness as more humane options, harming large numbers of innocents intentionally, and in the case of ESO's world, using necromancy as a tool for your war.

Ebonheart is the best alliance for the people who want to take pride in their choice because it never has (I think) committed any despicable acts. They don't have any rogues running around using necromancy, trying to slaughter an entire generation of babies, stealing skins, or destroying harmless villages. The worst thing I can remember anyone from Ebonheart doing for the war is unleashing Balreth, but Balreth was a tool of war that set fire to a boat and that was about it, and then they went to special effort to seal him away again.

Aiding a terroristic organization on enemy soil that's succeeded in destroying several civilian towns through Daedric intervention isn't a war crime?

The Veiled Heritance committed war crimes. If EP aided and abetted them, I'd say EP bears some responsibility.

By your logic, if the US aids South Korea and then South Korea nukes a city in North Korea and thousands of innocents die, we bear responsibility because we aided them. Doesn't work like that bud.

Wait, we don't? We really don't bear any responsibility for allying ourselves with terroristic organizations (Veiled Heritance is not the government of a sovereign nation, whatever Estre's delusions) who then prove to be terrorists?

VaranisArano

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Nobody should charge the Pact for slavery. The slavers are houses Dres and Telvanni. Dres agreed to stop slavery, and, if they still have slaves, it´s in an illegal way. We Telvanni, on the other hand, refused to enter the Pact, so Ebonheart is not the ones to inculpate for slavery. Actually, the Pact forbade it so...

The Pact forbids slavery of Argonians. They happily continue to enslave captured Covenant and Dominion citizens as shown in Stonefalls.

MrGrim

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

MrGrim wrote: »

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

Examples of Necromancy (or spirit summoning) used or suggested.

In EP you have the option to enslave all the spirits outside Davon's Watch. This is suggested as the right cause of action by a Dunmer NPC.

I can't remember more for EP off the top of my head but will go back on it later and provide.

In DC there is Fort Virak and then a barrow in Eastmarch/the Rift where a necromancer causes the place to go crazy.

Again, off the top of my head can't think of more.

Will scour the quest lines for more

Apart from the EP one. are those necromancers under orders from the factions or?
Alsoas for the EP one. idk if i can call that a factions warcrime as the decision is made by the player so it could be that that never happened at all.

The Fort Virak one takes place as part of the Daggerfall invasion of Stonefalls so the commander in charge committing those actions makes it a war crime.

I already listed that one. i was wondering if you knew specifics about others.

EvilAutoTech

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The person saying Ebonheart committed a war-crime by aiding the Veiled Heritance doesn't know what a war-crime is. Aiding an enemy of your enemy is not a war-crime. A war-crime is crossing the line by doing something particularly cruel for the same relative effectiveness as more humane options, harming large numbers of innocents intentionally, and in the case of ESO's world, using necromancy as a tool for your war.

Ebonheart is the best alliance for the people who want to take pride in their choice because it never has (I think) committed any despicable acts. They don't have any rogues running around using necromancy, trying to slaughter an entire generation of babies, stealing skins, or destroying harmless villages. The worst thing I can remember anyone from Ebonheart doing for the war is unleashing Balreth, but Balreth was a tool of war that set fire to a boat and that was about it, and then they went to special effort to seal him away again.

Aiding a terroristic organization on enemy soil that's succeeded in destroying several civilian towns through Daedric intervention isn't a war crime?

The Veiled Heritance committed war crimes. If EP aided and abetted them, I'd say EP bears some responsibility.

By your logic, if the US aids South Korea and then South Korea nukes a city in North Korea and thousands of innocents die, we bear responsibility because we aided them. Doesn't work like that bud.

Wait, we don't? We really don't bear any responsibility for allying ourselves with terroristic organizations (Veiled Heritance is not the government of a sovereign nation, whatever Estre's delusions) who then prove to be terrorists?

The French resistance of WW 2 was not sanctioned by a sovereign government. They killed French citizens when bombing establishments frequented by Nazis. (This is according to US public school curriculum.) Were they terrorists? Were they committing war crimes? If so, were the Allies committing war crimes by supplying aid?

The Veiled Heritance believed their government to be corrupt and evil. Should they not fight for what they believe in?

None of the Alliances or even the races are free from wrong doing in this war. Pact necromancers went to Auridon to assist the VH. Dominion forces body-snatched and if you believe the rumors, High King Emeric was brought back from the dead. (I believe it was a dream or mind control spell, but that's just me).

NyassaV

EP and DC are the lesser evils.

MrGrim

NyassaV wrote: »

EP and DC are the lesser evils.

from what i saw so far it seems

EP < DC < AD

from least to most evil

Sixty5

mb10 wrote: »

Lol wait until you read on Tiber Septums's war crimes.


The fact that people think the High Elves are worse than he is because theyre rude and disrespectful in TES V is hilarious.

He is no "Talos" and the biggest war criminal and potentially the worst person to ever live in TES.

It was his way or death. TES version of terrorism.

Fairly certain that he wanted to quash the other forms of worship on Tamriel and instate his own version of monotheism as well.

And now people think he is a god or something

VaranisArano

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The person saying Ebonheart committed a war-crime by aiding the Veiled Heritance doesn't know what a war-crime is. Aiding an enemy of your enemy is not a war-crime. A war-crime is crossing the line by doing something particularly cruel for the same relative effectiveness as more humane options, harming large numbers of innocents intentionally, and in the case of ESO's world, using necromancy as a tool for your war.

Ebonheart is the best alliance for the people who want to take pride in their choice because it never has (I think) committed any despicable acts. They don't have any rogues running around using necromancy, trying to slaughter an entire generation of babies, stealing skins, or destroying harmless villages. The worst thing I can remember anyone from Ebonheart doing for the war is unleashing Balreth, but Balreth was a tool of war that set fire to a boat and that was about it, and then they went to special effort to seal him away again.

Aiding a terroristic organization on enemy soil that's succeeded in destroying several civilian towns through Daedric intervention isn't a war crime?

The Veiled Heritance committed war crimes. If EP aided and abetted them, I'd say EP bears some responsibility.

By your logic, if the US aids South Korea and then South Korea nukes a city in North Korea and thousands of innocents die, we bear responsibility because we aided them. Doesn't work like that bud.

Wait, we don't? We really don't bear any responsibility for allying ourselves with terroristic organizations (Veiled Heritance is not the government of a sovereign nation, whatever Estre's delusions) who then prove to be terrorists?

The French resistance of WW 2 was not sanctioned by a sovereign government. They killed French citizens when bombing establishments frequented by Nazis. (This is according to US public school curriculum.) Were they terrorists? Were they committing war crimes? If so, were the Allies committing war crimes by supplying aid?

The Veiled Heritance believed their government to be corrupt and evil. Should they not fight for what they believe in?

None of the Alliances or even the races are free from wrong doing in this war. Pact necromancers went to Auridon to assist the VH. Dominion forces body-snatched and if you believe the rumors, High King Emeric was brought back from the dead. (I believe it was a dream or mind control spell, but that's just me).

No one is arguing that any of the alliances are free of wrongdoing. So I'll move on from that bit.


But I confess to being a bit confused by the on-going defense of the Veiled Heritance. I would have thought calling them a "terroristic organization that's succeeded in destroying several civilian towns through Daedric intervention" to be a fairly non-controversial description of the Veiled Heritance's methods and that those methods are generally thought as bad and to be condemned.

Instead the Veiled Heritance has been likened to a sovereign nation committing an act of war (possibly a war crime depending on where you fall on certain arguments re. the atmoic bombs I shan't get into here) and a group of freedom fighters committing acts of violence against their own citizens in pursuit of a higher cause (only valid from a point of view that accepts that the higher cause excuses, permits, or requires the acts of violence against their own citizens due to the higher cause's importance - so, YMMV on that one.)

From how they've been presented in ESO, the Veiled Heritance is a terroristic organization of racial supremacists willing to destroy several of their own towns and cities in order to achieve their goal of putting Estre on the throne and reverting Ayrenn's changes which include a degree of equality for the Bosmer and the Khajiit. Calling them freedom fighters trying to fight for what they believe in Altmer racial supremacy and subjugation of the Bosmer and Khajiit (shown in the College of Aldmeri Propriety Questline in particular) and willing to destroy their own people for it makes them more akin to the types of groups that call themselves "freedom fighters" but are really just terrorists and/or racial supremacists.

Furthermore, the Veiled Heritance is sponsoring several major invasions onto Dominion and Auridon's soil. A Pact force tries and failed to land aide in Auridon. The Veiled Heritance are also collaborating with the Maomer in those invasions in Auridon, Khanarthi's Roost, Greenshade and Malabal Tor. Need I point out that the Maomer were going to use a hurricane to destroy the Khajiit town of Mistral? Vicereeve Pelidil and the Maomer were already in league there.

My point is:
The Veiled Heritance strikes against civilian targets several times in the game, including multiple strikes against their own fellow Altmer.
There aren't "freedom fighters" standing up for their precious country, they are racial supremacists standing up for their rights to protect Altmer traditions and racial purity be Altmer supremacists. They'll use the Maomer and daedric rituals to kill their own people if that's what it takes (thereby shooting themselves in the foot in the process, because the Veiled Heritance is not actually all that superior at pulling off their grand schemes.)

With that in mind, here's my final tie-back to an old point and a request for the future.
Its not a good thing that the Pact allied with them. Sure sometimes countries in our world ally with terroristic "freedom fighters' but that doesn't make it a good thing, in my opinion. Its a thing, but not a good thing.
I'd like to request that any future historic analogies don't elide the racial superiority ideology of the Veiled Heritance because that, fundamentally, is what makes them think they have the right to rebel/fight/betray Auridon to the Maomer/call in the daedra.

MythicEmperor

How is slavery a “war crime?” It is a necessary good for Dunmer society.

On a serious note, war crimes are decided by the victors in war. Whoever wins gets to decide what is right and wrong and how one’s opponents should be sentenced. It’s the reason the Allies glossed over Stalin’s war crimes after WW2; he was on the winning side.

MrGrim

MythicEmperor wrote: »

How is slavery a “war crime?” It is a necessary good for Dunmer society.

On a serious note, war crimes are decided by the victors in war. Whoever wins gets to decide what is right and wrong and how one’s opponents should be sentenced. It’s the reason the Allies glossed over Stalin’s war crimes after WW2; he was on the winning side.

Except there is no winning side. so that doesn't apply here.

TelvanniWizard

The winnig side is the vestige, so, you decide.

MythicEmperor

MrGrim wrote: »

MythicEmperor wrote: »

How is slavery a “war crime?” It is a necessary good for Dunmer society.

On a serious note, war crimes are decided by the victors in war. Whoever wins gets to decide what is right and wrong and how one’s opponents should be sentenced. It’s the reason the Allies glossed over Stalin’s war crimes after WW2; he was on the winning side.

Except there is no winning side. so that doesn't apply here.

Exactly, making the entire question of ‘war crimes’ irrelevant. War crimes don’t exist without a victor declaring them against their defeated opponent in order to justify their own atrocities. The reality of war is that all sides commit horrors, whether it be the nuking of Japanese civilian populations or the fire-bombing of the civilian city Dresden or the abuse of millions of German women and children by the Soviets. There are no ‘good guys’ or ‘bad guys’ in war, only winners and losers. You must then choose the side that ideologically aligns with your character’s views.

My main, a traditional Telvanni Dunmer, couldn’t possibily support the Pact as it treats the Argonians as equals and illegalizes their enslavement, taking away what he views as an ancestral right. This is a shared view among Telvanni circles, so, fortunately for him, he can continue his practice of slavery in Morrowind’s East as it refused to join the Pact.

dogmaticus83

From my perspective EP seems to lead the war in quite "civilized" way. What casts a shadow is the fact, that Dark Elves are racial supremationists, which eventually must lead to trouble... and more often than not - results in tensions within the Pact.

HidesFromSun

MrGrim wrote: »

Ebonheart Pact:
Enslavement of other races

Just to add onto that. So the Ebonheart Pact forbids slavery, right? And House Dres are part of the Ebonheart Pact.

Imagine my surprise then when I went to the Dres owned Kragenmoor yesterday and saw a bunch of Khajiiti slaves! I am appalled that my alliance could allow something like this to stand >:(

VaranisArano

Derlfak wrote: »

MrGrim wrote: »

Ebonheart Pact:
Enslavement of other races

Just to add onto that. So the Ebonheart Pact forbids slavery, right? And House Dres are part of the Ebonheart Pact.

Imagine my surprise then when I went to the Dres owned Kragenmoor yesterday and saw a bunch of Khajiiti slaves! I am appalled that my alliance could allow something like this to stand >:(

The Ebonheart Pact forbids slavery of Argonians. Khajiit, Covenant races...fair game.

MythicEmperor

Derlfak wrote: »

MrGrim wrote: »

Ebonheart Pact:
Enslavement of other races

Just to add onto that. So the Ebonheart Pact forbids slavery, right? And House Dres are part of the Ebonheart Pact.

Imagine my surprise then when I went to the Dres owned Kragenmoor yesterday and saw a bunch of Khajiiti slaves! I am appalled that my alliance could allow something like this to stand >:(

I’m appalled the Pact could allow an ancestral right as sacred as Argonian enslavement to fall.

dogmaticus83 wrote: »

From my perspective EP seems to lead the war in quite "civilized" way. What casts a shadow is the fact, that Dark Elves are racial supremationists, which eventually must lead to trouble... and more often than not - results in tensions within the Pact.

Dunmer aren’t racial “supremecists,” but rather racial realists. Besides, I’d hardly count the Argonians as a ‘race.’ We don’t consider guars or horses ‘races,’ so why would the mud-dwelling Scalebacks constitute a race?

Valamist

Gotta admit, as a proud member of the AD, I was rather disturbed when I did Cadwell's Silver and saw what the Dominion where doing in Shadowfen/the birthing pools. I can only assume that Raz and/or Queen Ayrenn did not know about it. I cannot see either of them thinking they where good ideas.

They are still my favourite faction though, from characters, location and general motive behind said Alliance.

MythicEmperor

Valamist wrote: »

Gotta admit, as a proud member of the AD, I was rather disturbed when I did Cadwell's Silver and saw what the Dominion where doing in Shadowfen/the birthing pools. I can only assume that Raz and/or Queen Ayrenn did not know about it. I cannot see either of them thinking they where good ideas.

They are still my favourite faction though, from characters, location and general motive behind said Alliance.

They are merely Argonians, so no real harm done. Keep it up.

carljokl

As stated previously, I find it hard to believe that Ayrenn would ever have sanctioned the actions that occurred against the Argonians in Shaddowfen.

I don't recall particular Pack aggression against Daggerfall Covenant.

It is debated as to whether the use of Weapons of Mass Destruction are a war crime even if used in defence.

This would include the Brothers of Strife.

I don't know if the artefact from Betnikh is included as it is up to the player whether to keep it or not. If It is kept it is used against the Dominion though this does seem to be in self defence.

I don't recall the Altmer having any super weapons. The Bosmer have the Wild Hunt but don't use it in this war. The Bosmer do have a tendency of eating their victims which might be considered a war crime.

JobooAGS

Valamist wrote: »

Gotta admit, as a proud member of the AD, I was rather disturbed when I did Cadwell's Silver and saw what the Dominion where doing in Shadowfen/the birthing pools. I can only assume that Raz and/or Queen Ayrenn did not know about it. I cannot see either of them thinking they where good ideas.

They are still my favourite faction though, from characters, location and general motive behind said Alliance.

Similarly with the necromancer in stonefalls, if King Fahara'jad or any other Redguard leader worth their salt learned about this, and Emeric knew about it and didnt condem it, Hammerfell would leave or conqour DC so fast, you couldn't even say "necromancy". As you know, Redguards hate necromancy. Then again when I did cads gold, I really only saw bretons and orcs, with little to no redguards

LickingHistSap

The 'enslavement of other races' isn't a 'Ebonheart Pact' issue, it's a 'House Dres' issue. Everyone in the Ebonheart Pact has outlawed slavery aside from House Dres, which is 1/4th of the Dunmeri faction of the pact, which is in turn only 1/3rd of the Pact. This is less than 10% of the Pact.

It's still a terrible thing and a horrible issue, but it is not representative of the Pact, or even the majority of Dunmer at this time period.

LickingHistSap

VaranisArano wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

The person saying Ebonheart committed a war-crime by aiding the Veiled Heritance doesn't know what a war-crime is. Aiding an enemy of your enemy is not a war-crime. A war-crime is crossing the line by doing something particularly cruel for the same relative effectiveness as more humane options, harming large numbers of innocents intentionally, and in the case of ESO's world, using necromancy as a tool for your war.

Ebonheart is the best alliance for the people who want to take pride in their choice because it never has (I think) committed any despicable acts. They don't have any rogues running around using necromancy, trying to slaughter an entire generation of babies, stealing skins, or destroying harmless villages. The worst thing I can remember anyone from Ebonheart doing for the war is unleashing Balreth, but Balreth was a tool of war that set fire to a boat and that was about it, and then they went to special effort to seal him away again.

Aiding a terroristic organization on enemy soil that's succeeded in destroying several civilian towns through Daedric intervention isn't a war crime?

The Veiled Heritance committed war crimes. If EP aided and abetted them, I'd say EP bears some responsibility.

The Ebonheart Pact never aided them, they just met with Veiled Heritance leaders one time to consider it, prior to it being revealed they worked under Mehrunes Dagon by proxy.

Korah_Eaglecry

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

Slavery seems to be limited to the EP territories, especially Vvardenfell where the Telvanni coast is situated. They are not members of the Ebonheart Pact though so the EP can't be blamed for them. They can be blamed for house Dres however, who I believe are members of the Ebonheart Pact. They also turn a blind eye to the actions of house Telvanni.

Altmer enslave others as well. This is explored on Auridon in a delve on the west coast.

VaranisArano

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

OneKhajiitCrimeWave wrote: »

Slavery seems to be limited to the EP territories, especially Vvardenfell where the Telvanni coast is situated. They are not members of the Ebonheart Pact though so the EP can't be blamed for them. They can be blamed for house Dres however, who I believe are members of the Ebonheart Pact. They also turn a blind eye to the actions of house Telvanni.

Altmer enslave others as well. This is explored on Auridon in a delve on the west coast.

Yeah, goblins.

Maura_Neysa

War Crimes, I dont know, but you should join DC. Daggerfall is the only NOT racest alliance. Altmer are racest against everyone one. Dunmer are slave owners. At least Daggerfall just thinks Orcs are kinda low class.

VaranisArano

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

War Crimes, I dont know, but you should join DC. Daggerfall is the only NOT racest alliance. Altmer are racest against everyone one. Dunmer are slave owners. At least Daggerfall just thinks Orcs are kinda low class.

That's a relatively new thing. The Bretons have sacked Orsinium in the near past and will again. Plus in Betnikh, the most "Covenant" aligned members of the party are in favor of using the relic instead of freeing the orcs.