Alliances their warcrimes

Maura_Neysa

VaranisArano wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

War Crimes, I dont know, but you should join DC. Daggerfall is the only NOT racest alliance. Altmer are racest against everyone one. Dunmer are slave owners. At least Daggerfall just thinks Orcs are kinda low class.

That's a relatively new thing. The Bretons have sacked Orsinium in the near past and will again. Plus in Betnikh, the most "Covenant" aligned members of the party are in favor of using the relic instead of freeing the orcs.

Yes they sacked Orsinium, but they didn't then enslave them. There are also no secret schools training Orcs to be cannon fodder. DC isn't perfect, its just the least raciest choice

MythicEmperor

LickingHistSap wrote: »

The 'enslavement of other races' isn't a 'Ebonheart Pact' issue, it's a 'House Dres' issue. Everyone in the Ebonheart Pact has outlawed slavery aside from House Dres, which is 1/4th of the Dunmeri faction of the pact, which is in turn only 1/3rd of the Pact. This is less than 10% of the Pact.

It's still a terrible thing and a horrible issue, but it is not representative of the Pact, or even the majority of Dunmer at this time period.

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

War Crimes, I dont know, but you should join DC. Daggerfall is the only NOT racest alliance. Altmer are racest against everyone one. Dunmer are slave owners. At least Daggerfall just thinks Orcs are kinda low class.

Do you not understand? It isn’t slavery that’s an issue within the Pact, it’s the banning of it. Argonians have always been slaves. It is only natural the powerful define the standards of virtue, and our virtue is a pragmatic one. Slaves are useful. I can’t support an alliance that takes away that ancestral right. It isn’t “racist” if the so-called victims are savage animals. What else is there to be said?

Jhalin

Does anyone else get really creeped out by people like Mythic? Like, there's playing up a joke and then that sort of behavior. It's incredibly disturbing.

Dapper Dinosaur

I consider anyone that RPs Telvanni/Dres dark elves to be closet racists that are using the lore to act like their true selves without repercussion.

MythicEmperor

Jhalin wrote: »

Does anyone else get really creeped out by people like Mythic? Like, there's playing up a joke and then that sort of behavior. It's incredibly disturbing.

*raises hand*

Yeah, no one should be allowed to Roleplay in a Roleplaying game. Disgusting.

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

I consider anyone that RPs Telvanni/Dres dark elves to be closet racists that are using the lore to act like their true selves without repercussion.

I consider anyone that plays a serial killer to be closet serial killers that are using the film industry to act like their true selves without repercussion.

There is no way for you to accurately judge my real life views based on the personality of my invented and fictitious character. For you to label me a ‘closet racist’ without any actual evidence is, to be frank, small-minded.

Also, closet racist to what race? Lizard people?

Dapper Dinosaur

I think there's some merit to the fact you are capable of saying such things, roleplaying or not.

Aela_Dragonrider

Why don't we return to the original subject about warcrimes?

I'm a new player and my only character to have done an appreciable amount of the game is EP and even then only Bleakrock, Bal Foyen, Stonefalls, and most of Deshaan. Deshaan's troubles are internal so I can only really comment on the Covenant invasion of Bleakrock/Stonefalls, the Balreth incident, and the slavery issue.

1: Balreth: The whole plan to use him was Tanval Indoril's and it is stated be strictly a last resort as the invasion caught the EP completely off-guard and Davon's Watch is in serious danger. Everyone involved acknowledges that it was a massive risk and this is borne out by most of the rest of the Stonefalls quest line dealing with the fallout. And when Tanval attempted to unleash Sadal, everyone is emphatic on how horrible the consequences would be.

2: Slavery: I must admit that i dislike that the EP doesn't take a harsher line on this but it is so deeply ingrained in Dunmer culture that probably if all slavery was prohibited and said prohibition enforced, the dunmer would be fractured even more, weakening the EP as a whole. Deshaan shows just how divided the dunmer still are and pushing the slavery ban to the extreme would only make it worse. And i doubt you could call the slavery in general warcrimes as it existed long before the war, though the use of Khafiit and Redguards (ive only noticed the Khajiit in the Kragenmoor region, to be honest) could be considered so if they were POWs or captured in raids.

3:The Covenant invasion of Stonefalls and Bleakrock: Raiding enemy territories, pillaging towns, and massacring their inhabitants is something that i guess all the alliances do, sanctioned or not. Warcrimes? Probably, but hard to call them out on it if you have proof that the AD and EP have done it as well.
More serious, in my opinion, is their other actions in Stonefalls. To be honest, I have no idea whether these were officially sanction or not:

1. They tried to seize the Coral Heart, which would have allowed them to use Sandal, the other Brother of Strife, against the EP. In modern terms: they're trying to steal one of the EP nukes so they can use it on the EP. The EP was reluctant to use Balreth even in an emergency. The Covenant (at least Alexandra Conele) was more than willing to unleash Sandal on all of Stonefalls.
2. Don't know much of anything on the other alliances using necromancy in the war, but the Covenant is most definitely using it at Fort Virak. And not just on their own dead. On the way to the final boss for that section you can free EP prisoners that were going to be turned into undead as well. Whether using one's own dead is warcrimes is hard to say, but I would definitely consider using POWs to be so.
3. Starved Plain: While you can enslave the spirits, that is only one of two paths you can take. The other is to free them.

As I've said, there is a lot of the game I have not done and I am, to be honest, slightly biased in favor of the EP. But I would hesitate to say that the Covenant's conduct is worse than the other factions. However, it does certainly appear that the Covenant has no qualms with fighting dirty (using portals and blatant necromancy, trying to steal and activate a WMD). But, as I said before, I am biased.

LickingHistSap

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

War Crimes, I dont know, but you should join DC. Daggerfall is the only NOT racest alliance. Altmer are racest against everyone one. Dunmer are slave owners. At least Daggerfall just thinks Orcs are kinda low class.

I mean, the Daggerfall Covenant burnt Aleswell to the ground and killed any imperials who didn't evacuate after a week. Sooooooo...........

TelvanniWizard

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

I consider anyone that RPs Telvanni/Dres dark elves to be closet racists that are using the lore to act like their true selves without repercussion.

IRL I would never tolerate slavery, and much less have a slave myself. What you suggest is offensive.

Dapper Dinosaur

From the way dark elves behave, and the fact that people are enticed to not only like them but roleplay as them, I seriously doubt that. What would you think of me if I said I wanted to hang everyone of a particular race by their ankles and see how they fare as a party attraction, going into a pretty deep level of detail? You'd think that's pretty messed up and that I'm a racist and possibly a sociopath, right?

So how is what you Dark Elf roleplayers do different, exactly?

TelvanniWizard

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

From the way dark elves behave, and the fact that people are enticed to not only like them but roleplay as them, I seriously doubt that. What would you think of me if I said I wanted to hang everyone of a particular race by their ankles and see how they fare as a party attraction, going into a pretty deep level of detail? You'd think that's pretty messed up and that I'm a racist and possibly a sociopath, right?

So how is what you Dark Elf roleplayers do different, exactly?

What I do differently is to be able of separate real life and a fantasy world created for the purpose of entertainment.
I do also like Poe´s poetry, does that make me a perturbed or a madman, an assassin or a drunk?

Dapper Dinosaur

So you think you get a pass because the ideas described are not real-world scenarios? You don't think it looks even a LITTLE bit sketchy to see people RPing such disgusting behavior?

ZOS_Chris

Hey everyone!

This is an incredibly interesting discussion that's going on. We're loving the debate on the ethical and moral reasoning behind your respective choices.

This is a really good thread, keep it up!

TelvanniWizard

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

So you think you get a pass because the ideas described are not real-world scenarios? You don't think it looks even a LITTLE bit sketchy to see people RPing such disgusting behavior?

No, I see people roleplaying lots of things, from bestialism to mass murder (happens constantly in this game). If someone is capable of separating things from a game (non real) from real life stuff, I don´t see any problem. I´m historical reenactor myself, and have participated in some nasty things, like war prisoners executions. Does that make me an executioner, an assassin? No. I have never killed anyone, and I don´t think I´ll ever will. Under any circumstance. That´s because I can separate what happens in my diary life and in the historical reenactments. Never mistake a game for a real thing. I don´t know personally our poster friend @MythicEmperor , butI´m sure that he also doesn´t approve slavery IRL. The fact that he chooses to rp a Telvanni is just a fantasy option, like lots of people rolepaying murderous vampires or greedy thieves.

VaranisArano

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

So you think you get a pass because the ideas described are not real-world scenarios? You don't think it looks even a LITTLE bit sketchy to see people RPing such disgusting behavior?

I play Dungeons and Dragons. That has an alignment system, and yeah, sometimes my friends and I role play evil aligned characters.

But its "role play". playing a role.

If someone is having problems with role-playing evil bleeding over into their own opinions or harming others while role-playing, I personally dont think its wise to continue. I don't role play snippy, sarcastic characters anymore because I started being snippy and sarcastic out of character to my friends. That wasn't cool of me, so I apologized and took steps to make sure I wasn't going to doing that again.

Are there some folks who can role play evil and be fine and treat people respectfully? Yeah. I game with a few of them. They tend to have an excellent grasp on in-game and in-character actions versus real life and out-of-character actions.

So I don't have a problem with, say, Dunmer slavery role play between consenting roleplayers such as in certain RP guilds. They get to determine their own boundaries and god-modding generally isn't appreciated.

As for roleplaying on the forums, I suspect it come down to "Acceptable Targets". Some people enjoy making fun of Argonians. I enjoy reminiscing about slaughtering 4th Era Thalmor and cackling over the fate of the slave-holding Dunmer during Red Year. I'm sure there are Altmer and Dunmer fans who don't appreciate that either.

So, no, I don't think its sketchy to role play Dunmer, slavery included, especially not when, there was this really popular game called TES III: Morrowind that was all about Dunmer culture and all its faults. I do think roleplayers need to be aware and mindful of out-of-character considerations, and make sure they aren't "god-modding" with other people's characters (especially since that's against the forum rules.)

Responsible role-playing, yo.

NordSwordnBoard

You need a Tamrielic version of the Geneva Convention in order to have any "laws" violated. You can't charge anybody with crimes if there are no laws being broken in the first place.

The three alliances had a difficult time calling a truce to avoid an apocalypse scenario, so getting them to agree on war rules during the war would be difficult imo. The war would probably be over for a decade by the time they completed one.

The bureaucracy and lack of true centralized authority in each of these alliances would mean that enforcing any type of war crime prosecution on your own armies would weaken already fragile morale. (An Argonian officer publicly whipping a Dark Elf for being too evil to the enemy could be lighting the mutiny fuse.) These 3 alliances are juggernauts that trample morals in lieu of being hampered by them for the "greater good". Many of the messes our character cleans up for the greater good are ones that require an apolitical bad ass who also keeps quiet about past jobs.

War crimes also don't get enforced until after the war is won, and the loser gets handed all the war crime accusations while the winner covers up their own crimes. It's not like the loser of the war wins a whole bunch of war crimes cases against the victorious side.

TLDR;
You need to define war crimes before charging anyone with one.
Only the victor decides what a war crime is.
Only the losers are eligible to be war criminals.
The vestige would have to testify for years if there ever was a trial.

Kelces

MrGrim wrote: »

So I've bin looking into what faction i'd like to join now that I'm coming back to eso again. And amongst the threads i found someone using as argument the AD's crimes against the argonians in shadowfen. Which started to make me wonder.

What are all the crimes each of the alliances committed? lets list them shall we :P please list any you know off and let me know what you think of the ones posted.

Aldmeri Dominion:
Massacred entire argonian villages and tried to disrupt their birthing ritual.
Skin Stealing stuff in shadowfen

Daggerfal Covenant:
Killed the innocents of bleakrock isle
Resorted to necromancy to keep protecting a fort. forcefully bringing their troops back.

Ebonheart Pact:
Enslavement of other races

You could say, that was done by the Pact aswell:

Balreth at Davon's Watch.

MythicEmperor

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

So you think you get a pass because the ideas described are not real-world scenarios? You don't think it looks even a LITTLE bit sketchy to see people RPing such disgusting behavior?

Do actors get a pass on, say, crime shows where they act out violence and abuse? Or do you understand that TV shows are fictitious and for entertainment?

You don’t think it looked even a LITTLE bit sketchy to see people like Peter Cushing play characters like Grand Moff Tarkin who basically enacted genocide on an entire planet?

Or do you want everyone to be morally upright (even though our standards of morality are vastly different than they were a hundred years ago and will likely be vastly different in a hundred years from now) in your perfect flawless world where nothing bad ever happens? I suppose we should imprison the talented voice actors who played all of ESO’s villains for all the evils they have done. Molag Bal is also known as the King of R**e, and we can’t tolerate real-world issues in our Rated M game.

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

So you think you get a pass because the ideas described are not real-world scenarios? You don't think it looks even a LITTLE bit sketchy to see people RPing such disgusting behavior?

No, I see people roleplaying lots of things, from bestialism to mass murder (happens constantly in this game). If someone is capable of separating things from a game (non real) from real life stuff, I don´t see any problem. I´m historical reenactor myself, and have participated in some nasty things, like war prisoners executions. Does that make me an executioner, an assassin? No. I have never killed anyone, and I don´t think I´ll ever will. Under any circumstance. That´s because I can separate what happens in my diary life and in the historical reenactments. Never mistake a game for a real thing. I don´t know personally our poster friend @MythicEmperor , butI´m sure that he also doesn´t approve slavery IRL. The fact that he chooses to rp a Telvanni is just a fantasy option, like lots of people rolepaying murderous vampires or greedy thieves.

I despise slavery IRL and I see it as one of the world’s greatest problems that is still occurs in some places today. I didn’t choose House Telvanni for the sake of being a slaver. In fact, I chose ‘Dark Elf’ for two reasons:
1. I wanted to play the native race in TES:III.
2. I was a fan of the Drizzt books.
I learned about the Great Houses and actually took issue in deciding between Hlaalu and Telvanni as I typicaly played a stealth-mage in games, so both had aspects I desired. I decided on mage and joined House Telvanni, learning more about the culture and lore in the process. It was then than I began to impose a Telvanni-esque personality on my character (the one I now use in every TES game).

This personality became the lense that I view the games through, so I typically hate the Imperials and the Hlaalu for sucking up to them, etc. etc. If I mained an Altmer I’d consider the Dunmer heretics. If I mained a Nord I’d consider about everyone and everything that had two legs but wasn’t a Nord a ‘milk-drinker.’ If I mained an Argonian (God forbid) I’d hate the Dunmer. Every race has prejudices. I even make alts to explore these different perspectives as they only widen my own on the series.

So, my advice to those who hate Dunmer RPers? Open your mind a little. Explore those cultures so alien that you hate them without a second thought. It will only make you more open-minded to seemingly alien cultures IRL.

Dapper Dinosaur

Actors make money portraying evil characters. RPers just look like *redacted*.

VaranisArano

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Actors make money portraying evil characters. RPers just look like *redacted*.

Good thing this game isn't an MMORPG based of a series of popular single player role-playing games.

Oh. Wait.

HidesFromSun

MythicEmperor wrote: »

So, my advice to those who hate Dunmer RPers? Open your mind a little. Explore those cultures so alien that you hate them without a second thought. It will only make you more open-minded to seemingly alien cultures IRL.

Kudos to you for calmly explaining it instead of just being rude and starting an argument. Nice one

MythicEmperor

Dapper Dinosaur wrote: »

Actors make money portraying evil characters. RPers just look like *redacted*.

You seem to have missed the entire point of my post, particularly the portion about having an open mind. A bit ironic, don’t you think, when the crutch of your argument is that our roles make us close-minded IRL?

Actors make money, yes. Do you really believe that a love for acting was not a factor in their career decision? That actors don’t ever audition for particular roles? How dare they audition for the antagonist. Our story doesn’t need a conflict! I suppose everyone will just sit down with their guns or their swords and have a picnic. What an entertaining movie that’d make.

I’ve made everything perfectly clear in my previous post. Perhaps you’ve misread it. If that is the case, I would reccomend re-reading it. If not, I can only come to two possible conclusions, and I will try to be as nice as possible describing them (even though you immediately resort to insults).

1. You simply won’t accept that games should have dark themes, even if the game is Rated M (for Mature). If that is the case, I can see your perspective, but I would reccomend a game with a lower age rating. There are plenty of RPGs rated T for Teen and lower. Surely some of them are high quality and entertaining.

2. You are incapable of telling reality from fiction. I don’t know the best way to put this in a respectful tone, but you must learn that there is a difference between ESO and real life. Playing the Dark Brotherhood questline doesn’t make you a serial killer IRL, nor does it mean you even want to harm someone. Perhaps this is not the case for you, and there are people who can help with that.

Anyways, I’d appreciate it if you would take everything I’ve said into consideration before hurling more insults at us. If I have misrepresented you or if there is a third conclusion I missed, please let me know so that we can discuss that perspective. I look forward to your response.