Lore Friendly Glass/Malachite Roofs Retexture for Summerset Architecture

Rosveen

Darkstorne wrote: »

Highlor3 wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

raj72616a wrote: »

they didnt fix the telvanni tower texture in morrowind despite the complaints

Fleshy shroom towers still be fleshy.

That disappointed me a lot especially after all the backlash in the beta forums

it was fan art, with all the canonical relevance of C0DA

I agree with your point, but I would also like to point out that C0DA is now canon courtesy of ESO

And on topic, hell yes to glass roofs. It doesn't solve the issue completely, but it's a fantastic compromise of lore and engine restrictions.

Enlight us on how C0DA was made canon by ESO?

In-game lore book from the Morrowind expansion, the 37th Lesson of Vivec. Most obviously by the final line: "The worlding of the words is AMARANTH" which if you've read C0DA tells you all you need to know. But also if you haven't read C0DA there's an amazing line in this lore book which reads:

"Go here: world without wheel, charting zero deaths, and echoes singing" Seht said, until all of it was done, and in the center was anything whatever.

Underlined the important parts of that for you. C0DA's website is www.c0da.es. That'll fill you in on what the Amaranth is, but the long and the short of it is:

The world of TES is a dream, and the dreamer is the Amaranth. Even the gods are a part of her dream. Eventually, a new dreamer will begin to dream a new world, from within the world of TES. Turtles all the way down. Those who have achieved chim are those who have realized the world isn't real but love it enough to remain within. They gain the power to do with the world whatever they will, much like lucid dreams irl (hence Talos mantling Lorkhan to become a god within this world). This also explains why modding is completely lore friendly, since every player has achieved chim whether they realize it or not, knowing the world isn't real, choosing to remain within anyway, and therefore having the power to shape the world (or simply toggle god mode) however they like. It also means ESO isn't lore friendly for this reason but we can let them off for that since players toggling god mode in PVP would get boring pretty fast.

This is a tribute to c0da, but imo not an outright confirmation of its canonicity. It does confirm that there's such a thing as Amaranth, but that doesn't make the entire thing canon.

That said, if one believes in the message of c0da, then any discussion about the canonicity of anything is pointless because there essentially is no canon. Your lore is as valid as mine, Bethesda's or anyone else's - so if someone discards c0da as stupid and untrue, they're also right! As an avid reader of fanfiction, I embrace this attitude, but at the end of the day c0da is less about the events happening in Tamriel and more about your mindset as a consumer of fictional stories.

Aliyavana

Radinyn wrote: »

No

Nice constructive detailed post on why you don't want glass roofs

myskyrim26

No! Hell no to any crap about all that "made of glass and insect bottoms". It is just an early lore, nobody thought that we will ever have such a high quality graphics, and that we will ever see Alinor as it is an isolated place.
You didn't even see anything, but a short video, to judge if the architecture is good or not...

Aliyavana

myskyrim26 wrote: »

No! Hell no to any crap about all that "made of glass and insect bottoms". It is just an early lore, nobody thought that we will ever have such a high quality graphics, and that we will ever see Alinor as it is an isolated place.
You didn't even see anything, but a short video, to judge if the architecture is good or not...

We saw enough architecture to know that zos chose a loose interpretation of the lore and they won't redesign completely now that the assets are done. All we can hope is minor edits but if your content with this massive of a retcon I wonder how many retcons you are willing to overlook

myskyrim26

@aliyavana,
And also, this matter was covered long ago:
Will we see the buildings of Alinor that look like they are “made from glass or insect wings?” And will we see the Crystal Tower for that matter?
When The Elder Scrolls Online launches, the playable part of the Summerset Isles will be Auridon, the big island between Summerset and the continent that includes the cities of Firsthold and Skywatch. The architecture of the High Elves is fanciful, certainly, but it’s also practical, constructed of real-world materials. Architects can’t make buildings out of poetry!

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/elder-scrolls-online-lore-answers

Faulgor

myskyrim26 wrote: »

@aliyavana,
And also, this matter was covered long ago:
Will we see the buildings of Alinor that look like they are “made from glass or insect wings?” And will we see the Crystal Tower for that matter?
When The Elder Scrolls Online launches, the playable part of the Summerset Isles will be Auridon, the big island between Summerset and the continent that includes the cities of Firsthold and Skywatch. The architecture of the High Elves is fanciful, certainly, but it’s also practical, constructed of real-world materials. Architects can’t make buildings out of poetry!

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/elder-scrolls-online-lore-answers

And everyone was just as upset then.

Aliyavana

myskyrim26 wrote: »

@aliyavana,
And also, this matter was covered long ago:
Will we see the buildings of Alinor that look like they are “made from glass or insect wings?” And will we see the Crystal Tower for that matter?
When The Elder Scrolls Online launches, the playable part of the Summerset Isles will be Auridon, the big island between Summerset and the continent that includes the cities of Firsthold and Skywatch. The architecture of the High Elves is fanciful, certainly, but it’s also practical, constructed of real-world materials. Architects can’t make buildings out of poetry!

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/elder-scrolls-online-lore-answers

doesn't mean they cant address some issues right now. Altmer are known for glass armor and what better way to add some to their roofing? After all, the architecture itself isn't gonna change but a minor edit would go a long way to please lore fans

Darkstorne

myskyrim26 wrote: »

Architects can’t make buildings out of poetry!

Always hated this quote. They try reducing the argument to idiocy, as though we'd be mad to think glass architecture could ever be a thing, and therefore ZOS have done nothing wrong by sticking to concrete everything. That's where they lose any respect imo, and I really wish they'd just be HONEST about why they couldn't make glass architecture work instead of pulling bull like this out of their collective behinds. At the very least it would be a fascinating insight into how their art team figures out what they can and cannot make work, based on their engine and the talents/problemsolving skills of their team.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

myskyrim26 wrote: »

And also, this matter was covered long ago:
Will we see the buildings of Alinor that look like they are “made from glass or insect wings?” And will we see the Crystal Tower for that matter?
When The Elder Scrolls Online launches, the playable part of the Summerset Isles will be Auridon, the big island between Summerset and the continent that includes the cities of Firsthold and Skywatch. The architecture of the High Elves is fanciful, certainly, but it’s also practical, constructed of real-world materials. Architects can’t make buildings out of poetry!

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/elder-scrolls-online-lore-answers

It was a stupid argument then and it hadn't gotten better with age. Can't make buildings out of poetry? Why not? They can certainly make them out of pixels!

Aliyavana

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

myskyrim26 wrote: »

And also, this matter was covered long ago:
Will we see the buildings of Alinor that look like they are “made from glass or insect wings?” And will we see the Crystal Tower for that matter?
When The Elder Scrolls Online launches, the playable part of the Summerset Isles will be Auridon, the big island between Summerset and the continent that includes the cities of Firsthold and Skywatch. The architecture of the High Elves is fanciful, certainly, but it’s also practical, constructed of real-world materials. Architects can’t make buildings out of poetry!

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/elder-scrolls-online-lore-answers

It was a stupid argument then and it hadn't gotten better with age. Can't make buildings out of poetry? Why not? They can certainly make them out of pixels!

haha

Acrolas

myskyrim26 wrote: »

nobody thought that we will ever have such a high quality graphics

This is, as much as people will hate it, the correct analysis.

You have to go back to Redguard where the Pocket Guide originated, and look at the asset design of the late 90's.
The brick looked similar to glass shards or insect wings, and a drunken sailor would have light and vision distortion on top of that.



So the description, at the time, was congruent with the design aesthetic. But forget the UESP classification.

The Pocket Guide is not lore.
Alinor is a few uncredited interpretations in one paragraph of a propaganda pamphlet that even disclaims in its first paragraph that it's not entirely accurate.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Acrolas wrote: »

The Pocket Guide is not lore.

You're trying to argue that a piece of the lore is not lore.

psychotrip

Acrolas wrote: »

myskyrim26 wrote: »

nobody thought that we will ever have such a high quality graphics

This is, as much as people will hate it, the correct analysis.

You have to go back to Redguard where the Pocket Guide originated, and look at the asset design of the late 90's.
The brick looked similar to glass shards or insect wings, and a drunken sailor would have light and vision distortion on top of that.



So the description, at the time, was congruent with the design aesthetic. But forget the UESP classification.

The Pocket Guide is not lore.
Alinor is a few uncredited interpretations in one paragraph of a propaganda pamphlet that even disclaims in its first paragraph that it's not entirely accurate.

Read my sig.

The "graphics would be too advanced" argument falls apart when you see what they did with Artaeum. Or what they did with Valenwood (which isn't perfect but a hell of a lot more interesting than anything in Summerset). It's not a matter of engine limitations, but creativity.

Either way, if ZOS couldn't handle it, they shouldn't have done it, because now this is canon. This is the supposedly super-advanced culture we've been waiting to see. This is the nation Tiber Septim couldn't conquer without a giant robot god. Turns out it's just a minor step above Cyrodiil.

And let's not forget that all the cities look the same, making it a step below the last chapter in terms of art design.

Why are there crumbling ruins in the middle of towns? The Altmer are all about perfection and preservation. Even in the livestream, the developers say this.

Why is everything gray stone? Is that the best the Altmer could do? Why does Zenimax always seem to default to the color gray when they can't think of anything more creative?

None of this has anything to do with engine limitations.

This isn't a matter of graphical fidelity. It's about a generic, bland, medieval European landscape that I've seen thousands of times before.

Aliyavana

psychotrip wrote: »

Acrolas wrote: »

myskyrim26 wrote: »

nobody thought that we will ever have such a high quality graphics

This is, as much as people will hate it, the correct analysis.

You have to go back to Redguard where the Pocket Guide originated, and look at the asset design of the late 90's.
The brick looked similar to glass shards or insect wings, and a drunken sailor would have light and vision distortion on top of that.



So the description, at the time, was congruent with the design aesthetic. But forget the UESP classification.

The Pocket Guide is not lore.
Alinor is a few uncredited interpretations in one paragraph of a propaganda pamphlet that even disclaims in its first paragraph that it's not entirely accurate.

Read my sig.

The "graphics would be too advanced" argument falls apart when you see what they did with Artaeum. Or what they did with Valenwood (which isn't perfect but a hell of a lot more interesting than anything in Summerset). It's not a matter of engine limitations, but creativity.

Either way, if ZOS couldn't handle it, they shouldn't have done it, because now this is canon. This is the supposedly super-advanced culture we've been waiting to see. This is the nation Tiber Septim couldn't conquer without a giant robot god. Turns out it's just a minor step above Cyrodiil.

And let's not forget that all the cities look the same, making it a step below the last chapter in terms of art design.

Why are there crumbling ruins in the middle of towns? The Altmer are all about perfection and preservation. Even in the livestream, the developers say this.

Why is everything gray stone? Is that the best the Altmer could do? Why does Zenimax always seem to default to the color gray when they can't think of anything more creative?

None of this has anything to do with engine limitations.

This isn't a matter of graphical fidelity. It's about a generic, bland, medieval European landscape that I've seen thousands of times before.

Agreed, as ive said before all that can be done is remedy the problem with some editing as they will not redo the architecture completly

WhiteCoatSyndrome

psychotrip wrote: »

This isn't a matter of graphical fidelity. It's about a generic, bland, medieval European landscape that I've seen thousands of times before.

Something else that's been bothering me about the copy-paste of real world architecture...and maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is just due to my own lack of expertise in architecture...but my understanding is this: sharp slopes on the roofs like we're seeing - in the real world - is for areas with heavy snowfall, the idea being that the snow will fall off without having to send someone up to remove it with a shovel/roof rake/whatever.

Summerset is in the tropics. Why does every city have snow roofing? Cloudrest can get a pass here, it's up on a mountain so snow might be possible. But all those lovely coastal villages?

Aliyavana

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

This isn't a matter of graphical fidelity. It's about a generic, bland, medieval European landscape that I've seen thousands of times before.

Something else that's been bothering me about the copy-paste of real world architecture...and maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is just due to my own lack of expertise in architecture...but my understanding is this: sharp slopes on the roofs like we're seeing - in the real world - is for areas with heavy snowfall, the idea being that the snow will fall off without having to send someone up to remove it with a shovel/roof rake/whatever.

Summerset is in the tropics. Why does every city have snow roofing? Cloudrest can get a pass here, it's up on a mountain so snow might be possible. But all those lovely coastal villages?

Might have more to do with beauty and less with functionality

Acrolas

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

You're trying to argue that a piece of the lore is not lore.

Lore is accepted cultural knowledge originating from within a culture.

How you even read the Pocket Guide?

The Aldmeri Dominion, the Elsweyr Confederacy, and Morrowind have yet to join the Empire, but are described in this book for the edification of the scholar, the fascination of the common citizen, and the preparation of the soldier.
***
Now, citizen, we entreat you to review our modest survey of the Empire's dominions. If it entertains and edifies, reflect not upon the humble labors of this scribe, but on the gracious benevolence of our beloved Emperor, whose very name is as ambrosia upon our tongues, who in his wisdom has ordained that this survey be created and distributed among the earnest and wise people of Tamriel, that they might better understand the glories and challenges of these Lands and Dominions, and that they might better appreciate the great burdens of rulership he bears in our names with such fortitude.


It uses a version of edify twice for a specific reason. The root of the word is aedes, which means "house" or "temple". It's an Imperial book meant to indoctrinate Imperial minds.

psychotrip wrote: »

Read my sig.

That's just a variation on the fan angle. That because you speculated and dreamed big in another direction, that makes you more "correct" than the actual owners of the intellectual property who made decisions they knew would disappoint people regardless what was chosen.

I don't want fan service or weird architecture for the sake of weird architecture. I want them to tell their story in the environment they've chosen it to be told in.

myskyrim26

Guys, please, enough of this glass and insect bottoms . If ZOS could, they would have done it. They surely thought it over - glass models, glass textures, malachite textures, The're not fools, you know? They whish to make every land attractive and lore firendly, yet TOLERABLE to our oh so many different PCs.

Aliyavana

myskyrim26 wrote: »

Guys, please, enough of this glass and insect bottoms . If ZOS could, they would have done it. They surely thought it over - glass models, glass textures, malachite textures, The're not fools, you know? They whish to make every land attractive and lore firendly, yet TOLERABLE to our oh so many different PCs.

"If ZOS could, they would have done it" Could, would, at the end all that matters is that they could have

myskyrim26

@aliyavana,
In the end of all this, a question: will you play Summerset as is? As it _will be_ as is. No? Ok, nobody makes you buy it. Or you'll just post endless comments here about insect bottoms and then and play Summerset just as others?

Aliyavana

myskyrim26 wrote: »

@aliyavana,
In the end of all this, a question: will you play Summerset as is? As it _will be_ as is. No? Ok, nobody makes you buy it. Or you'll just post endless comments here about insect bottoms and then and play Summerset just as others?

Doesn't matter if I will play it or not because while I still will play it the damage may be done. Your argument seems to be accepting of any direction zos chooses and by your other threads it looks like youd be willing to white knight anything they do.

Vaoh

Please consider it ZOS

Aliyavana

Vaoh wrote: »

Please consider it ZOS

myskyrim26

@aliyavana,
By no means I can be a "white knight ", I have oh-so-very-few-stars here. It's fun seeng you coming to my post and making a comment, though. But, you know, this forum is for everyone. Not regarding these stars you're so proud about. I have my opinion, and I'm free to suggest it, and I don't care of your spam-stars, you know

dcam86b14_ESO

Couldn't they also use the glass window texture they have throughout most of the aedra temples?

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Acrolas wrote: »

Lore is accepted cultural knowledge originating from within a culture.

That's your opinion. Here's what dictionary.com says:

1.
the body of knowledge, especially of a traditional, anecdotal, or popular nature, on a particular subject:
the lore of herbs.
2.
learning, knowledge, or erudition.
3.
Archaic.
the process or act of teaching; instruction.
something that is taught; lesson.

It can be culture-specific but it doesn't have to be.

Korah_Eaglecry

Id be okay with the malachite shingles and windows. It would bring a bit of flair to the towers and buildings. I dont think it would happen but it be a nice addition.

Aliyavana

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Id be okay with the malachite shingles and windows. It would bring a bit of flair to the towers and buildings. I dont think it would happen but it be a nice addition.

we can only hope

Faulgor

Darkstorne wrote: »

myskyrim26 wrote: »

Architects can’t make buildings out of poetry!

Always hated this quote. They try reducing the argument to idiocy, as though we'd be mad to think glass architecture could ever be a thing, and therefore ZOS have done nothing wrong by sticking to concrete everything. That's where they lose any respect imo, and I really wish they'd just be HONEST about why they couldn't make glass architecture work instead of pulling bull like this out of their collective behinds. At the very least it would be a fascinating insight into how their art team figures out what they can and cannot make work, based on their engine and the talents/problemsolving skills of their team.

That they haven't learned from the backlash back then is probably the most astonishing thing to me. Because we have been through all of this before, and for some reason I was convinced they wouldn't make the same mistake twice.

People will probably think I'm overstating the importance of the lore community, but I really think the initial negative reaction to ESO's lore and statements like "no buildings out of poetry" and "transcription error" contributed hugely to ESO's miserable launch. ESO was really immensily reviled back then, and this Disney version of Summerset demolishes a lot of trust that has been build since.

Aliyavana

Faulgor wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

myskyrim26 wrote: »

Architects can’t make buildings out of poetry!

Always hated this quote. They try reducing the argument to idiocy, as though we'd be mad to think glass architecture could ever be a thing, and therefore ZOS have done nothing wrong by sticking to concrete everything. That's where they lose any respect imo, and I really wish they'd just be HONEST about why they couldn't make glass architecture work instead of pulling bull like this out of their collective behinds. At the very least it would be a fascinating insight into how their art team figures out what they can and cannot make work, based on their engine and the talents/problemsolving skills of their team.

That they haven't learned from the backlash back then is probably the most astonishing thing to me. Because we have been through all of this before, and for some reason I was convinced they wouldn't make the same mistake twice.

People will probably think I'm overstating the importance of the lore community, but I really think the initial negative reaction to ESO's lore and statements like "no buildings out of poetry" and "transcription error" contributed hugely to ESO's miserable launch. ESO was really immensily reviled back then, and this Disney version of Summerset demolishes a lot of trust that has been build since.

The lore of this game is very important and the altmeri people are supposed to be almost as weird if not as weird as the dunmeri people in terms of architecture and other factors. I hope zos takes a good look and adds malachite roofing to help mend some of the wounds