The difference race makes to end-game is huge

WuffyCerulei

I agree with what ya said, but I'm still being a lizard regardless. I do have an Altmer sorc that does a lil more damage than my lizard sorc, but he's squishy. Lizard stays alive more.

Chilly-McFreeze

fred4 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

You're able to beat all the games content with any race/class combination it's just going to be slower for you.

I don't think this is true at all. It could be true for you, but I am not that good at PvE and have never beaten vMA, for example. vMA relies primarily on speed. If you are too slow, you get overwhelmed and die. I have gotten to the very last round of the very last level with my Breton magblade. vMA weapons aren't the big draw they used to be, and I no longer care to ever complete it, but that's beside the point. I would not have gotten as far on the wrong-race character, of that I am sure, because this content is only marginally doable for me.

I still don't quite get what you are trying to say.

That the right racial passives pushed you to the point where you are still not able to clear vma?
That the wrong racial passives hold capable players back from completing e.g. vma?
Mind that some guys even do it with a broom.

Also, Altmer and Dunmer are better offensive choices for magblades. So you nearly made it with a class that is not BiS.
Or are you complaining that a Redguard magblade has it harder than a Altmer magblade?
That would be like complaining about magSorcs not being as effective with 2h & bow as with staves or about a heavy armor 2h/ SnB DD not pulling the same dps as someone in medium armor with DW & Bow.

Layered build choices are part of the game. If you are that fixed on a specific race/ class/ build combo even tho it's less effective, that's on you. Min/maxers don't care what character model they have or what set they have to use. And for everyone in between there are plenty of options.

So again, what's this fuss about? That a bad build performs worse than a good build?
Ìs your conclusion to make every race the same or to let every race shine in a specificbut different way?
I can't agree to the first but I'd agree to the second. But that also means that some race/ build combos perform worse than others. It's called diversity.

But who am I too judge, a year back I complained about hybrids being uneffective as well.

Joy_Division

It's absolutely fine that race makes a difference in end game. In fact, it should as choices ought to be meaningful.

What is not fine is that some races are way stronger than others.

Marginis

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Personally I think everyone would be happier if each race got one passive to boost magicka builds, one to boost stamina builds, and one for survivability/tank builds. There can still be some variation but each race should be able to play each role without their racial passive being completely useless.

Examples:

Stamina-boosting passives:
-max stamina
-weapon damage
-weapon critical
-stamina recovery
-stamina return on attacks

Magicka boosting passives:
-max magicka
-spell or elemental damage
-spell critical
-magicka recovery
-reduced spell cost

Survival boosting passives:
-max health
-reduced block/dodge cost
-healing received
-health recovery
-physical/spell resistance
-armor

If each race had a combination of these they could effectively play multiple roles without feeling like they're losing the benefit of their passive.

As an example, khajiit (my personal favorite race) currently only benefits stamina builds. They have passives for stamina recovery, health recovery, stealth, and weapon critical. With the new system above, i would change their passives to be something like this:

Nimble (rename robust)
(Current: +20% health recovery and +10% stamina recovery)
New: +6% max health, +10% magicka recovery, and +10% stamina recovery

Stealthy (rename nimble)
(Current: -3 meter detection range in stealth and +5% damage in stealth)
New: blocking and dodging costs 10% less stamina and magicka.
The stealthy passive is honestly useless in pve and only marginally useful in pvp, it should be removed from racials and added to world/guild skill lines.

Carnage (rename keen-eye)
(Current: increases weapon critical by 8%)
New: increases weapon and spell critical by 8%

Similar changes would be made for every race. Each race can maintain a little unique flavor while still being able to effectively fill any role. Some races focus on raw damage, others on crit, others on recovery/sustain.

Careful with that, because that might also suit some roles over others, like tanking over DPSing. It might be better to limit passives to training buffs, so everyone can reach the same point eventually, or non-combat buffs, like stealth on Khajiit or gold gain on Imperials.

Careful with that, because that might suits grinding new chars/gold, gathering mats, stealing etc, with specific races.
it might be better to change passives to nothing, so everyone can reach the same point eventually. And remove class skills/ passives. So everyone can finally be the same. Diversity is overrated anyway.

It's good to have diversity, especially in an MMO or an RPG. And yes, different characters with non-combat benefits would be better or worse than other characters with different benefits, but when it came to head to head combat, there would not be any insurmountable unfairness all other things the same. The idea is to give variety without compromising balance. If my wood elf got an extra jute from gathering, every few nodes, which I can transfer between characters, I'd both have a reason to play my wood elf but also not feel forced to play my wood elf or use it as my main. Whereas if you're getting benefits locked to a character - like skills - you're forced to play a certain race to be the very best, like no one ever was. The difference between what we're saying is that I still like interesting and unique differences in characters as opposed to getting rid of all variety - I'd just prefer to define my character's character separately from their stats.

Qbiken

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's absolutely fine that race makes a difference in end game. In fact, it should as choices ought to be meaningful.

What is not fine is that some races are way stronger than others.

IMO it depends on the "end-game" content and what role you decide to play.

PvE:
- Damage dealer: Here is where race matter the least if you ask me. Rotation, gear, group-composition etc is what matters, not your race. It does make a difference in some cases, but not as much as people want to believe.
- Tanks: Here is where race starts to matter a bit more and race can make a difference whether you are successful in trials or not. But still, experience, gear and group-composition will fail you before your choice of race does....
- Healers: Read what I wrote under "Tanks"

PvP:
From what I can understand here´s where race matters the most.

Asardes

Marginis wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Personally I think everyone would be happier if each race got one passive to boost magicka builds, one to boost stamina builds, and one for survivability/tank builds. There can still be some variation but each race should be able to play each role without their racial passive being completely useless.

Examples:

Stamina-boosting passives:
-max stamina
-weapon damage
-weapon critical
-stamina recovery
-stamina return on attacks

Magicka boosting passives:
-max magicka
-spell or elemental damage
-spell critical
-magicka recovery
-reduced spell cost

Survival boosting passives:
-max health
-reduced block/dodge cost
-healing received
-health recovery
-physical/spell resistance
-armor

If each race had a combination of these they could effectively play multiple roles without feeling like they're losing the benefit of their passive.

As an example, khajiit (my personal favorite race) currently only benefits stamina builds. They have passives for stamina recovery, health recovery, stealth, and weapon critical. With the new system above, i would change their passives to be something like this:

Nimble (rename robust)
(Current: +20% health recovery and +10% stamina recovery)
New: +6% max health, +10% magicka recovery, and +10% stamina recovery

Stealthy (rename nimble)
(Current: -3 meter detection range in stealth and +5% damage in stealth)
New: blocking and dodging costs 10% less stamina and magicka.
The stealthy passive is honestly useless in pve and only marginally useful in pvp, it should be removed from racials and added to world/guild skill lines.

Carnage (rename keen-eye)
(Current: increases weapon critical by 8%)
New: increases weapon and spell critical by 8%

Similar changes would be made for every race. Each race can maintain a little unique flavor while still being able to effectively fill any role. Some races focus on raw damage, others on crit, others on recovery/sustain.

Careful with that, because that might also suit some roles over others, like tanking over DPSing. It might be better to limit passives to training buffs, so everyone can reach the same point eventually, or non-combat buffs, like stealth on Khajiit or gold gain on Imperials.

Careful with that, because that might suits grinding new chars/gold, gathering mats, stealing etc, with specific races.
it might be better to change passives to nothing, so everyone can reach the same point eventually. And remove class skills/ passives. So everyone can finally be the same. Diversity is overrated anyway.

It's good to have diversity, especially in an MMO or an RPG. And yes, different characters with non-combat benefits would be better or worse than other characters with different benefits, but when it came to head to head combat, there would not be any insurmountable unfairness all other things the same. The idea is to give variety without compromising balance. If my wood elf got an extra jute from gathering, every few nodes, which I can transfer between characters, I'd both have a reason to play my wood elf but also not feel forced to play my wood elf or use it as my main. Whereas if you're getting benefits locked to a character - like skills - you're forced to play a certain race to be the very best, like no one ever was. The difference between what we're saying is that I still like interesting and unique differences in characters as opposed to getting rid of all variety - I'd just prefer to define my character's character separately from their stats.

You already have such bonuses, that are meaningless in combat, but useful for other things. For example my Khajiit NB gets much less bounty while pickpocketting the same NPCs than my other characters, all other tings being the same (same sets, maximized Ledgermain and TG passives, 7 medium)

Cutpurse

Increases the experience gain with the Medium Armor Skill line by 15%.
Increases your chance to successfully pickpocket by 5%.

fred4

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

You're able to beat all the games content with any race/class combination it's just going to be slower for you.

I don't think this is true at all. It could be true for you, but I am not that good at PvE and have never beaten vMA, for example. vMA relies primarily on speed. If you are too slow, you get overwhelmed and die. I have gotten to the very last round of the very last level with my Breton magblade. vMA weapons aren't the big draw they used to be, and I no longer care to ever complete it, but that's beside the point. I would not have gotten as far on the wrong-race character, of that I am sure, because this content is only marginally doable for me.

I still don't quite get what you are trying to say.

That the right racial passives pushed you to the point where you are still not able to clear vma?
That the wrong racial passives hold capable players back from completing e.g. vma?
Mind that some guys even do it with a broom.

Also, Altmer and Dunmer are better offensive choices for magblades. So you nearly made it with a class that is not BiS.
Or are you complaining that a Redguard magblade has it harder than a Altmer magblade?
That would be like complaining about magSorcs not being as effective with 2h & bow as with staves or about a heavy armor 2h/ SnB DD not pulling the same dps as someone in medium armor with DW & Bow.

Layered build choices are part of the game. If you are that fixed on a specific race/ class/ build combo even tho it's less effective, that's on you. Min/maxers don't care what character model they have or what set they have to use. And for everyone in between there are plenty of options.

So again, what's this fuss about? That a bad build performs worse than a good build?
Ìs your conclusion to make every race the same or to let every race shine in a specificbut different way?
I can't agree to the first but I'd agree to the second. But that also means that some race/ build combos perform worse than others. It's called diversity.

But who am I too judge, a year back I complained about hybrids being uneffective as well.

I am trying to illustrate how much of a difference race makes. I am not complaining. I am stating facts (actual % differences) and am trying to convey personal experience, because I think it is interesting. In particular I wanted to make the point that race can make a real, tangible difference to end-game, that may even make or break particular content for you, based on your experience level. It is often said that race makes no difference in the early game, and that it matters in end-game only if you are super competitive, going for leaderboard scores. Well, I don't find that to be true. In particular vMA is too aggravating for me. I don't enjoy it. I don't enjoy learning exactly where, and when, everything spawns, but I am at the cusp of completing it. Anyone who is in the same boat may, for example, find this post useful, if they just want to have a shot at vMA weapons.

This is not meant as a complaint. I am perfectly happy - and successful - making PvP builds with crafted and bought-in-guild-stores gear. My niche is PvPing in IC, and farming Tel Var when there's no PvP. That is what I enjoy. It has given me the buying power to get anything from stores. In that sense the game is working well for me.

I am not looking for racial passive changes. I offer anecdotal evidence about races. What you make of that is up to you. You talk about "layered build choices". The problem is, you never get to experience those choices - as far as race - unless you either spend large amounts of money on race change tokens, or large amounts of time grinding alts. For people who don't want to do that, this thread offers one more data point among those already out there.

Marginis

Asardes wrote: »

You already have such bonuses, that are meaningless in combat, but useful for other things. For example my Khajiit NB gets much less bounty while pickpocketting the same NPCs than my other characters, all other tings being the same (same sets, maximized Ledgermain and TG passives, 7 medium)

Cutpurse

Increases the experience gain with the Medium Armor Skill line by 15%.
Increases your chance to successfully pickpocket by 5%.

The opinion I was expressing was that any combat bonuses should be either gotten rid of or replaced with non-combat bonuses. I have no issue with those current bonuses, and was using them as a positive example. Although those examples arguably have issues of their own, I feel they are significantly better than the existing combat bonuses. This is only one possible solution to my problem with imbalanced racial passives, however. I'd love to hear some other ideas.

rpfc1009

Would have loved if the racial passives at the start were simple quirks like the extra swim speed for the argonians for example.
Would like if other passives were things we could choose while we levelled up. That way we had the feeling we were getting stronger because we “trained” and learned.
So if you were a mag char you could pick between increased max magicka, magicka Regen. If you wanted a tank you could go max mag and max health.
Maybe with every lvl we could empower a perk we already choose or pick another one.

dodgehopper_ESO

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I agree the racial passives make a bigger difference than most people think. Still, I have 4-5 tanks and a healer, and all are khajiit. I still manage ok despite the lack of good racial passives, but I would definitely liken to have some health and magicka boosts for my race.

I definitely think Khajiit should be given +Health. The race is the closest thing to a 'Tank race' particularly in this era of no stamina regeneration while blocking. I had a Bosmer Dragon Knight that I had begun in the era of regenerating while blocking and that build is for the most part done for. Khajiit on the other hand at least has health regeneration and stamina regeneration. While not very potent in either arena it would fill a hole in the racial passives of the dominion.

InFernalEntity

My opinion on this is that some combinations should outperform others but all races should be able to fulfil each role.

Running an Argonian stam DPS is impossible. Even though shadowscales exist in the game... Argonian stamblades straight up suck.

And I'm sure other combinations suck. Spinners are mages in a sense but no magicka bonuses for Bosmer?

But Dunmer have the telvani and the morag tong and get a stamina and a magicka buff...

There is evidence in the game that races can do things that the passives just don't let you and it should at least be looked in to whether they change passives or add passives or make passives morphable. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me currently.

Lynx7386

InFernalEntity wrote: »

My opinion on this is that some combinations should outperform others but all races should be able to fulfil each role.

Running an Argonian stam DPS is impossible. Even though shadowscales exist in the game... Argonian stamblades straight up suck.

And I'm sure other combinations suck. Spinners are mages in a sense but no magicka bonuses for Bosmer?

But Dunmer have the telvani and the morag tong and get a stamina and a magicka buff...

There is evidence in the game that races can do things that the passives just don't let you and it should at least be looked in to whether they change passives or add passives or make passives morphable. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me currently.

Agreed. Like I said, each race's passives should be hybridized to function for multiple roles.

Pretty much all races have 3 passives (not counting the one for leveling up whatever weapon or armor type faster). They could be changed one of two ways:

Option 1:
Each passive improves a certain type of play, e.g.:
passive 1: Boosts stamina/melee stats
passive 2: Boosts magicka/spell stats
passive 3: Boosts health/survival stats

Option 2:
Each passive is hybridized and serves a specific overall type of boost, e.g.:
passive 1: boosts magicka, stamina, and health totals
passive 2: boosts magicka/stamina or weapon/spell damage
passive 3: boosts magicka, stamina, and health recovery


So as some race specific examples:

Khajiit
Robust: Increases max health, stamina recovery, and magicka recovery
Nimble: Reduces the magicka and stamina costs of blocking, dodging, and sprinting
Keen-Eye: Increases weapon and spell critical chance

Wood Elf
Endurance: Increases health, magicka, and stamina recovery
Resistant: Increases resistance to all damage types
Hunter's Intuition: Grants physical and spell penetration

High Elf
Gift of Magnus: Increases max health, magicka, and stamina
Charged: Increases health, stamina, and magicka recovery
Elemental Mastery: Increases all damage

Breton
Gift of Magnus: Increases max health, magicka, and stamina
Resistant: Increases resistance to all damage types
Mastery: Reduces all magicka and stamina costs

Orc
Brawny: Increases max health, magicka, and stamina
Unflinching: Increases max health, health recovery, and healing received
Swift Warrior: Reduces the magicka and stamina costs of blocking, dodging, and sprinting

Redguard
Adrenaline Rush: Increases magicka and stamina recovery
Conditioning: increases max magicka and stamina
Exhilaration: Increases max health and healing received

Nord
Stalwart: Increases max stamina and magicka
Resistant: Increases resistance to all damage types
Rugged: Increases max health, health recovery, and healing received

Dark Elf
Dynamic: Increases max magicka and stamina
Destructive ancestry: inreases all damage
Resistant: Increases resistance to all damage types

Argonian
Resourceful: Increases magicka, health, and stamina recovery
Resistant: Increases resistance to all damage types
Mending: Increases max health and healing received


There, passives are balanced and more similar for all races, and everyone can fill any role to a similar degree.

HJSmith24

Recently been on the receiving end of this, and I can't say I'm a fan.

Being an RPG, you should really be able to sculpt your character whichever way you like visually (assuming its not offensive or physically impossible), and personally, I don't like high elves. So, from a role playing perspective, I'd never want to play one.

However, now I'm nearing end game content, I'm trying to eek out as much DPS from my characters, and i'm losing 1-3k DPS on my magsorc for being a Breton not an Altmer. So now I'm stuck with either knowing my character will never be hitting as hard as it could, or change to a high elf and throw roleplay/immersiveness to the wind.

A possible solution to this has been mentioned before, make the Race only a visual determinate and have each of the above passive groups selected in some other way.

Just my two penneth.

MerlinPendragon

All of these decisions will only make character creation more confusing.

Racial buffs and passives should be generally left as is. A few races need tweaks to them, but upending the system would be far worse and you will just end up with a bunch of vanilla choices.

Marginis

MerlinPendragon wrote: »

All of these decisions will only make character creation more confusing.

Racial buffs and passives should be generally left as is. A few races need tweaks to them, but upending the system would be far worse and you will just end up with a bunch of vanilla choices.

On the contrary, taking combat bonuses (or all racial bonuses) out would make character creation simpler. Depending on how changes would be implemented and what changes are being made, it could make character creation more vanilla, but 1. it might not make the experience more bland and 2. I would say the benefits outweigh the negatives, even with a little bit blander character building. I want to see better representation of some of the "worse" races.

aeowulf

i'd much rather the racial passives made a big difference at the beginning and less the closer you got to end game, diminishing returns etc.

beginning of the game you have bad armour/sets etc and need help more. end game - everything is perfect, need help less

Would probably be better to allocate each race 10 or 20 <or whatever> number of free cp in skills the devs decide are correct for that race

Chilly-McFreeze

aeowulf wrote: »

beginning of the game you have bad armour/sets etc and need help more. end game - everything is perfect, need help less

You already get that help. It's called battle leveling. Ever wondered why you loose stats with each level up?

danno8

Would all be fixed if they would let you choose "what constellation you were born under" allowing you to choose your passive bonuses, rather than have them being tied to race.