The difference race makes to end-game is huge

fred4 · February 2018

I find myself playing the same magicka nightblade build on two different characters for the time being. This is my PvP build. The original character is a Breton, and the build was made for her. The new character is a wood elf, a disenchanted stamblade from another alliance, who turned to magicka for now. The wood elf has two big problems: She is the wrong race for the build, missing the +10% magicka passive, and she doesn't have Undaunted Mettle yet. This has resulted in 5K less magicka (32K vs 37K), a roughly 10% damage deficit, and 1K smaller shields in PvP. Now perhaps this doesn't sound so bad, but she fails what I call the "Skyreach Throne Room Test".

If you know Maelstrom Arena, then I can describe Skyreach Throne Room as mini version of that. It is not as hard as vMA, but it has similar dynamics. You can power through with DPS and overwhelm the monsters before they do any real damage to you. If your DPS is high, you also tend to conserve resources, as you will cast fewer abilities and get time to rest between waves of monsters. If your DPS is just adequate, your sustain will be tested, as you cast more abilities to get things done, and find less, or no time to rest. If your DPS is too low, the waves of monsters will overwhelm you, unless perhaps you are an outright tank. This is my testing ground for any new build I make.

This build, being a "balanced" solo PvP / Imperial City build, was always in the adequate DPS bracket. Still, the Breton can mow everything down with no problem, with time to spare between most waves. It was quite a surprise, then, that the wood elf really struggles. Saying there's a 10% damage deficit does not adequatly convey how slow and nerfed the build feels. It could be that it gives the monsters more time to heal, cast CCs or other things that slow you down, but I'm not sure. Getting Undaunted Mettle will narrow the gap to the Breton, but I doubt that it will fully alleviate the clear difference felt in this test setting, or in any other high-end content for that matter. The multiplicative resource stacking bonuses from racial passives have a strong impact on how your build performs, if you are at all interested in end-game and build to take advantage of them.

So why bring this up? Cause I think you should know! I came to ESO from a single-player gaming background. This left me unprepared for how competitive an MMO can be. There is nothing in the character creation screen that discusses racial passives, so do look up the information elsewhere, if you think you may at all care about end-game. We have race change now, but it's expensive. If you're like me, you may also get attached to your character(s) and won't want to change their race later on.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

I agree the racial passives make a bigger difference than most people think. Still, I have 4-5 tanks and a healer, and all are khajiit. I still manage ok despite the lack of good racial passives, but I would definitely liken to have some health and magicka boosts for my race.

kylewwefan · February 2018

using a stamina inclined race for magic based character will never go good. I tried it as well just re-spec Orc StamBlade to mag. Just wasn’t very good.

When I tried making my dark elf Sorc into a Stam Sorc though, it wasn’t quite as bad.

Now it’s pretty clear High Elf is king for magic build and Redguard for Stam and anything else is good for Roleplay.

Subversus · February 2018

Hurr

xbobx · February 2018

kylewwefan wrote: »

using a stamina inclined race for magic based character will never go good. I tried it as well just re-spec Orc StamBlade to mag. Just wasn’t very good.

When I tried making my dark elf Sorc into a Stam Sorc though, it wasn’t quite as bad.

Now it’s pretty clear High Elf is king for magic build and Redguard for Stam and anything else is good for Roleplay.

not exactly.

Dark Elf is better for dragonknight magicka build and possibly for being a vampire.

Silver_Strider · February 2018

Some races do better as certain builds vs others but the difference is a bit to large for my personal liking.

If the difference was a mere 1-2k discrepancy, I could tolerate it but because of the % based passives, it causes much larger performance issues than that.

Until ZOS either removes racial passives or make the bonuses flat numbers, they'll never really be as balanced as it could be.

Marginis · February 2018

Either way, there is a noticeable difference between builds, especially at higher levels of play. The fact that I should experience any negative impact on my build just because I like playing pretty kitties all the time seems unfair.

Cadbury · February 2018

That's why there should really only be Redguard and Dunmer to choose from.

xbobx · February 2018

i have been sitting on a change race token trying to decide if i use it. I have been thinking of changing my stamblade from bosmer to redguard. I originally choose to be a werewolf so wanted the disease resistance because i found it hard to solo things in pve on stamblade. Werewolf made it easy.

But now that i got vigor, it really changes nightblade and i can survive better than a werewolf that can do 3 heals before running out of magic.

the only other ones i would consider is imperial stamdk but i am thinking of making them a tank and considering resources are not really an issue with stamdk, imperial probably is still a good choice. The second is a bow/bow warden but again i never run out of stamina. Plus i like the idea as the nature guy being a woodelf, it fits.

Reverb · February 2018

There really needs to be a better explanation of the benefits and passive skills for each race in the character creation. It's unreasonable to expect that new players will research this before starting their first character.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2018

I made most of my chars Dunmer because I'm too indecisive if I want to play mag or stam, too lazy to level a sixth char and too cheap to buy a race change token. I'm fine with missing out a few % dps. The loss of player skill will overshadow that anyway.

aeowulf · February 2018

racial passives should probably be given at level 1 for free, and all be flat numbers. That way they will be more powerful for new characters and less so at high end, meaning there is less variation through race. When one race gets +10% magicka/stamina stat they get a huge boost at cap (say 40k+10% = +4k) and a much smaller boost at low level, 10k+10% = +1k

It makes a huge difference to the min/maxers.

Will it change? unlikely, least not whilst race change tokens exist.
Do i want it to? not really, all toons i play are capped so it makes minimal difference to me anywa, and there needs to be some difference
should it change? probably, % amps have been shown to be the best at high end and the gap between new/old is far too great.

Imperial works pretty well for stamdps too, it's comparable to redguard although it is not there. It has exactly the same damage potential with higher health whilst sacrificing stam regen, but the Reguard is likely to be slightly under ideal health so will probably find they run +stam/health food. An imperial running dubious food now only gets slightly less stamina and a very good resource regen too. Most races are in this sort of situation if they are not the obvious meta, just need to look beyond the base stats. Doesn't stop Redguard being the best stamina race though. The things that can't be helped are the stamina races that want to play magDPS.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · February 2018

There is a lot of statements of "fact" here without context. Like your skyreach example. Where you wearing the same gear? Same mundas? Same skills on your bar? So many variables before you can definitively say the stuff you are.

But even if it is the way you are describing, who cares, I mean why have different races if they are not meaningfully different. The only real time race matter is on vet trials score runs and if you are the kind of person that runs these things, then you are the kind of person that won't care how you do it.

Asardes · February 2018

I picked the races of my characters based on stats, and I never changed builds from magicka to stamina or the other way. The only one I ran as hybrid was my current stamina DK because I was low CP and I couldn't afford Tri-Stat glyphs and VR15-16 materials to craft gear back then. But once my CP was high enough I went full stamina and hybridized trough mundus, consumables and tri-stat glyphs on armor when I played tank, since tanks are only builds that really benefit from balanced stats. On top of that came the racial changes in HotR patch that gave Nord 6% stamina, though I feel it's still a bit underpowered in the DPS department. I wouldn't change race for only a few % more stamina or whatnot.

Vahrokh · February 2018

I experience the same in PvE. I have my main, who is a Dunmer magsorc and two other Altmer magsorcs.

Given everything equal, the difference is tangible, especially after the regen nerf.

Now, I am fine with a race being better at something but it should NOT be like in ESO, where Altmer = best at everything, no question asked and all the other races don't have any "bright spot" where to shine.

Even if I go all out fire gear and enchants on my Dunmer, she's still going to perform worse than the Altmer putting in zero effort. That's bad game design.

Asardes · February 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

I experience the same in PvE. I have my main, who is a Dunmer magsorc and two other Altmer magsorcs.

Given everything equal, the difference is tangible, especially after the regen nerf.

Now, I am fine with a race being better at something but it should NOT be like in ESO, where Altmer = best at everything, no question asked and all the other races don't have any "bright spot" where to shine.

Even if I go all out fire gear and enchants on my Dunmer, she's still going to perform worse than the Altmer putting in zero effort. That's bad game design.

The Altmer recovery bonus is ~80 if you play with base recovery, and the 1% magicka bonus is negligible indeed. In fact Dunmer may actually be stronger this patch, since more Sorcerers will use Inferno Staff on front bar due to the off-balance changes. So your HA/LA weaving from an Inferno Staff, as well as your flame glyph and Ilambris flame procs will hit harder, making up for that 1%. So you are clearly exaggerating. If you used a race without maximum magicka bonus the difference will be indeed tangible.

Merlin13KAGL · February 2018

Undaunted Mettle makes a difference, but it's not usually a game-breaker. It effectively frees up the equivalent of one glyph for most builds.

Turelus · February 2018

It makes a difference but unless you're going for super min/max for Trials leaderboards of the biggest advantages in PvP it's not that bad.

You're able to beat all the games content with any race/class combination it's just going to be slower for you.

If you're going for "the best" then of course you're going to choose what's best the same way classes and builds are chosen. At least now we have race change tokens for those who really care about that level of play.

Azurya · February 2018

I changed by 4 toons the race, because it makes a difference, BUT
I am not in for changes to the racial passives! (apart for Nords, they are anyway good for nothing)

and besides Nord I run almost every race on my toons,

Facit: no need for this!

idk · February 2018

1 comparing a character that is lacking undaunted passives to one with full passives obviously skews the data.
2. Racial passives obviously do hell a character built us utilize those passives. However, it's not huge. Ofc it does add up when combining with other passives.

Lynx7386 · February 2018

Personally I think everyone would be happier if each race got one passive to boost magicka builds, one to boost stamina builds, and one for survivability/tank builds. There can still be some variation but each race should be able to play each role without their racial passive being completely useless.

Examples:

Stamina-boosting passives:
-max stamina
-weapon damage
-weapon critical
-stamina recovery
-stamina return on attacks

Magicka boosting passives:
-max magicka
-spell or elemental damage
-spell critical
-magicka recovery
-reduced spell cost

Survival boosting passives:
-max health
-reduced block/dodge cost
-healing received
-health recovery
-physical/spell resistance
-armor

If each race had a combination of these they could effectively play multiple roles without feeling like they're losing the benefit of their passive.

As an example, khajiit (my personal favorite race) currently only benefits stamina builds. They have passives for stamina recovery, health recovery, stealth, and weapon critical. With the new system above, i would change their passives to be something like this:

Nimble (rename robust)
(Current: +20% health recovery and +10% stamina recovery)
New: +6% max health, +10% magicka recovery, and +10% stamina recovery

Stealthy (rename nimble)
(Current: -3 meter detection range in stealth and +5% damage in stealth)
New: blocking and dodging costs 10% less stamina and magicka.
The stealthy passive is honestly useless in pve and only marginally useful in pvp, it should be removed from racials and added to world/guild skill lines.

Carnage (rename keen-eye)
(Current: increases weapon critical by 8%)
New: increases weapon and spell critical by 8%

Similar changes would be made for every race. Each race can maintain a little unique flavor while still being able to effectively fill any role. Some races focus on raw damage, others on crit, others on recovery/sustain.

Marginis · February 2018

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Personally I think everyone would be happier if each race got one passive to boost magicka builds, one to boost stamina builds, and one for survivability/tank builds. There can still be some variation but each race should be able to play each role without their racial passive being completely useless.

Examples:

Stamina-boosting passives:
-max stamina
-weapon damage
-weapon critical
-stamina recovery
-stamina return on attacks

Magicka boosting passives:
-max magicka
-spell or elemental damage
-spell critical
-magicka recovery
-reduced spell cost

Survival boosting passives:
-max health
-reduced block/dodge cost
-healing received
-health recovery
-physical/spell resistance
-armor

If each race had a combination of these they could effectively play multiple roles without feeling like they're losing the benefit of their passive.

As an example, khajiit (my personal favorite race) currently only benefits stamina builds. They have passives for stamina recovery, health recovery, stealth, and weapon critical. With the new system above, i would change their passives to be something like this:

Nimble (rename robust)
(Current: +20% health recovery and +10% stamina recovery)
New: +6% max health, +10% magicka recovery, and +10% stamina recovery

Stealthy (rename nimble)
(Current: -3 meter detection range in stealth and +5% damage in stealth)
New: blocking and dodging costs 10% less stamina and magicka.
The stealthy passive is honestly useless in pve and only marginally useful in pvp, it should be removed from racials and added to world/guild skill lines.

Carnage (rename keen-eye)
(Current: increases weapon critical by 8%)
New: increases weapon and spell critical by 8%

Similar changes would be made for every race. Each race can maintain a little unique flavor while still being able to effectively fill any role. Some races focus on raw damage, others on crit, others on recovery/sustain.

Careful with that, because that might also suit some roles over others, like tanking over DPSing. It might be better to limit passives to training buffs, so everyone can reach the same point eventually, or non-combat buffs, like stealth on Khajiit or gold gain on Imperials.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2018

Marginis wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Personally I think everyone would be happier if each race got one passive to boost magicka builds, one to boost stamina builds, and one for survivability/tank builds. There can still be some variation but each race should be able to play each role without their racial passive being completely useless.

Examples:

Stamina-boosting passives:
-max stamina
-weapon damage
-weapon critical
-stamina recovery
-stamina return on attacks

Magicka boosting passives:
-max magicka
-spell or elemental damage
-spell critical
-magicka recovery
-reduced spell cost

Survival boosting passives:
-max health
-reduced block/dodge cost
-healing received
-health recovery
-physical/spell resistance
-armor

If each race had a combination of these they could effectively play multiple roles without feeling like they're losing the benefit of their passive.

As an example, khajiit (my personal favorite race) currently only benefits stamina builds. They have passives for stamina recovery, health recovery, stealth, and weapon critical. With the new system above, i would change their passives to be something like this:

Nimble (rename robust)
(Current: +20% health recovery and +10% stamina recovery)
New: +6% max health, +10% magicka recovery, and +10% stamina recovery

Stealthy (rename nimble)
(Current: -3 meter detection range in stealth and +5% damage in stealth)
New: blocking and dodging costs 10% less stamina and magicka.
The stealthy passive is honestly useless in pve and only marginally useful in pvp, it should be removed from racials and added to world/guild skill lines.

Carnage (rename keen-eye)
(Current: increases weapon critical by 8%)
New: increases weapon and spell critical by 8%

Similar changes would be made for every race. Each race can maintain a little unique flavor while still being able to effectively fill any role. Some races focus on raw damage, others on crit, others on recovery/sustain.

Careful with that, because that might also suit some roles over others, like tanking over DPSing. It might be better to limit passives to training buffs, so everyone can reach the same point eventually, or non-combat buffs, like stealth on Khajiit or gold gain on Imperials.

Careful with that, because that might suits grinding new chars/gold, gathering mats, stealing etc, with specific races.
it might be better to change passives to nothing, so everyone can reach the same point eventually. And remove class skills/ passives. So everyone can finally be the same. Diversity is overrated anyway.

Luckylancer · February 2018

They can balance it. Wood elf and redguard are very close. Redguards have the best melee sustain but dont have elfs' utilty passives and ranged sustain.

In other side, altmer are better breton in every way. Mag resist talent is weak at pve and useless at pvp(shields). They have better sustain than breton too unless brets gain so much non-regen magicka from other sources. Brets dont get any burn or poison state immunity like other resist passive user races too.

SoLooney · February 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

I experience the same in PvE. I have my main, who is a Dunmer magsorc and two other Altmer magsorcs.

Given everything equal, the difference is tangible, especially after the regen nerf.

Now, I am fine with a race being better at something but it should NOT be like in ESO, where Altmer = best at everything, no question asked and all the other races don't have any "bright spot" where to shine.

Even if I go all out fire gear and enchants on my Dunmer, she's still going to perform worse than the Altmer putting in zero effort. That's bad game design.

high elf is not BiS for all magicka. def for mag sorc and probs mag warden, but dark elf competes when it comes to magplar and magblade. dunmers are BiS for mag dks for sure

aeowulf · February 2018

It's not just race though. ESO has the opposite of diminishing returns if you build for it. The way CP increases is correct, it's just everything else. Too many % amps. Then there is the fluff racials skills like 1% extra gold at one end of the scale vs 50% swim speed boost at the other. It's not balanced, but then should it be? That would mean every race is identical & races are different after all...

fred4 · February 2018

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

There is a lot of statements of "fact" here without context. Like your skyreach example. Where you wearing the same gear? Same mundas? Same skills on your bar? So many variables before you can definitively say the stuff you are.

Your hostility is puzzling. I gave a lot of context. But, let me reiterate: When I say I'm playing the same build, yes, that's what I mean. Same gear, same mundus, same enchants, same food, same traits, same skills, same bar setup, same everything, except for race and lack of Undaunted Mettle. I thought that was clear from the first sentence of my post. This was a very deliberate test, and Skyreach Throne Room really is consistent enough that you can draw some conclusions after several runs. I'm sorry, if you don't care. Perhaps there are other forum posts that you do care about.

fred4 · February 2018

Turelus wrote: »

You're able to beat all the games content with any race/class combination it's just going to be slower for you.

I don't think this is true at all. It could be true for you, but I am not that good at PvE and have never beaten vMA, for example. vMA relies primarily on speed. If you are too slow, you get overwhelmed and die. I have gotten to the very last round of the very last level with my Breton magblade. vMA weapons aren't the big draw they used to be, and I no longer care to ever complete it, but that's beside the point. I would not have gotten as far on the wrong-race character, of that I am sure, because this content is only marginally doable for me.

Asardes · February 2018

Undaunted Mettle is 6% Stamina, health and magicka. Breton passives are 10% magicka and Wood elf ones are 6% maximum stamina and 21% stamina recovery. So a Breton with the passive will have +16% magicka, +6% health and the same stamina compared to a Wood Elf without but only +10% magicka, same health and -6% stamina compared with one with. When it comes to DPS, maximum stat makes about half of that on most builds, so the difference in DPS will be 8% in the first case, and 5% in the second. If the Breton will pull 30K DPS the untrained Wood Elf will pull around 27.6K and the trained one will pull 28.5K. Not really game breaking of anything but if you go for absolute min-max, it will be visible, about as much as most monster sets will parse, and the more skilled that player is, the more the gap will open up.

In terms of sustain the 3% cost reduction passive is actually much better than most players will realize and it's actually better than the 10% recovery, especially at base recovery. For example my High Elf magicka Sorcerer has 880 magicka recovery and my Breton magicka Templar has about 760 when using almost the same gear, and that includes the Capacitor passive (+10% recovery) and slotting Ice Comet (+2% recovery) for the former. So the racial recovery passive is almost drowned out by other similar ones. But both are better than having none, like Wood Elf.

fred4 · February 2018

Well, @Asardes, let me tell you the actual difference in tooltips, as well as measured with FTC on a target skeleton:

Concealed Weapon: 9%
Sap Essence: 9%
Funnel Health: 12%

FYI I have Funnel on my resto bar, and Spell Damage is lower. It's a resto / 2H PvP build. By the way, there is no question I could complete the content, on the wood elf, with a PvE build, but that was not the point of the test.

My point was that this average 10% difference is nothing to be sneezed at and made a marked difference to how the build felt, in this test, much more so than the numbers would imply.

Asardes · February 2018

I didn't know it was a PvP 2W build, so yes, the difference is higher because I assumed it's a typical PvE Destro/Destro build and hence considered staff attack weaving into the equation, and those scale mostly on spell damage. In PvE you do weave on that resto bar to proc Assassin's Will, but they will be a smaller portion of your DPS than in a PvE rotation.