What's the deal with wrobel?

Ch4mpTW

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If we all just relax with a little Skooma and wear the rainbow fox robes then the game is perfectly blanced @Ch4mpTW

Ah... I see... It all is becoming clear now.

DoctorESO

ak_pvp wrote: »

DoctorESO wrote: »

If people actually met Eric in person, I'm sure they would not then come here and bash like there's no tomorrow. Just like when you meet any person. Until you meet them, you've dehumanized them.

Its the internet. Do you reckon any of us, even the most salted would say some of the things that have been said if we knew the person IRL?

Not at all. In fact, I bet that the "most salted" are probably very outwardly nice IRL.

Maybe we all should be wondering now whether that person we meet on the streets is actually an ESO Forums poster?

Gilvoth

idk wrote: »

Gaming communities are generally not fond of the one who brings change to their gaming world. That is it in a nutshell. Yes, some changes do not make sense, but mostly we adapt and move on.

that is simply false information. i do not agree with what you said.

Doctordarkspawn

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Eric Wrobel is the lead combat designer.
Many ESO players are combat-oriented (especially high level PVE-players and PVP players) and know the combat system inside-out, because they do a lot of theorycrafting and play a lot.
They blame Wrobel for :
- every aspect of combat they personally dislike,
- every change in the combat system that's aimed at casuals (and thus do good players a disservice of some kind)
- every change that force them to change their way of playing

In general they tend to think that they know the combat system in ESO better than Wrobel himself. I can't tell whether that's true or not (it's most probably wrong) but one thing is quite certain : hardcore players spend more time playing the game than Wrobel (for obvious timetable reasons).

I tend to think that, no matter their opinion, some players should be more respectful of Eric Wrobel as a person.

This is the basics. I'd like to add to this, however.

Eric has a tendancy to do the exact opposite of what we think he should, and it isn't like we're not shy about telling him what we'd like to see happen. A great example is when he wanted poisons shred a player on ESO live, went 'wow, that's not normal', then proceeded to buff them when the players went 'okay, we should tone these down.'

Another classic example of the third in action is when the sustain changes of morrowind went through despite player feedback being in the overwhelmingly negative. Nobody who didn't like it then, likes it now.

Reguardless of whether or not he knows the combat system better, his consistant adversarial attitude to our feedback, his constant refusal to work with us, and his insistance that he knows best, is irritating, grating, and has sucked by far alot of joy out of the game for alot of people.

And reguardless of who knows the combat system better, the playerbase knows what they find -fun- better than Wrobel. Which means when he makes sweeping changes against our wishes, it makes the game less fun for us. The sustain changes were a great example, ESO players wanted a fast paced, reticle combat game. The sustain changes, slowed the game down, in addition to limiting possible player builds and choice.

Wrobel's wishes, and the players wishes and feedback, are typically at odds. And given we have no other names or details, people have begun to hate this man. And I'm personally with them.

We probably wouldn't hate him if we met him or even talked to him all that much, but see...he kind of dislikes doing that. Plenty of us would love to work with him to find a compromise on balance. But the other side never picks up the phone, so hate is all we're really left with. So blaming the rest of us? Eh. Not very fair, considering we'd put in the work, on the whole, if given the chance.

Edziu

there is some how most of normal competetive players (so no casuals) see Wrobel working at ESO combat, maybe old but still good showing how it still look e.g. just sustain changes in morrowind which isnt to old yet and people still dont like those changes like many other


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiSHfGiQFkM

thedude33

Anxiously waiting for the one lead combat designer who's every decision and change is embraced by 100% of the games users.

Doctordarkspawn

thedude33 wrote: »

Anxiously waiting for the one lead combat designer who's every decision and change is embraced by 100% of the games users.

Honestly, you dont need to do -that-, you just need to be able to lisen and reach a compromise. For Honor has been accomplishing that really freaking well, and that's a competative environment. I dont hate the people there, I like them. Because when we ask for heroes to be buffed, sure it takes a while, but the buffs make -sense-, are effective, and great. When we ask for nerfs, it's usually done the same way.

And they talk with us at length about those changes. They play they're own game, they know the state of it. I have faith in those people.

I dont have faith in Wrobel.

Gilvoth

we don't hate him, we hate the choices that are made and decisions to destroy builds and playstyles from people that rule over our characters that do not play daily LIKE WE DO ingame on a daily basis like we do for hours on end.

good example was removing the sneak speeds we once had.
i HATE that decision and i hate even more the answer we were given as to why the sneak speeds were removed.
[but not the person]

Ackwalan

He lost a lot of credibility when he tried to explain that animation canceling wasn't broken, and decide to call it weaving.

Gilvoth

almost every new patch theres a removal or change that was entirely uncalled for.

Im_MegaDeath

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Eric Wrobel is the lead combat designer.
Many ESO players are combat-oriented (especially high level PVE-players and PVP players) and know the combat system inside-out, because they do a lot of theorycrafting and play a lot.
They blame Wrobel for :
- every aspect of combat they personally dislike,
- every change in the combat system that's aimed at casuals (and thus do good players a disservice of some kind)
- every change that force them to change their way of playing

In general they tend to think that they know the combat system in ESO better than Wrobel himself. I can't tell whether that's true or not (it's most probably wrong) but one thing is quite certain : hardcore players spend more time playing the game than Wrobel (for obvious timetable reasons).

I tend to think that, no matter their opinion, some players should be more respectful of Eric Wrobel as a person.

I think this is the greatest post of all time. ^_^ not only has the personal opinion but also puts him/herself in the shoes of both the players and wrobel. AND WITH A MORAL OUTLOOK

10/10 sir/ma'am

Solohope

Ackwalan wrote: »

He lost a lot of credibility when he tried to explain that animation canceling wasn't broken, and decide to call it weaving.

It isn't broken, and thank god it's a thing. Like honestly speaking the ability to animation cancel is one of the biggest differentiating factors between a skilled player and a bad bad player. Like try to beat vma without animation canceling on a stamblade then come here and post stuff like this.

Ch4mpTW

Ackwalan wrote: »

He lost a lot of credibility when he tried to explain that animation canceling wasn't broken, and decide to call it weaving.

LOL! Classic Wrobel moment.

Ackwalan

Solohope wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

He lost a lot of credibility when he tried to explain that animation canceling wasn't broken, and decide to call it weaving.

It isn't broken, and thank god it's a thing. Like honestly speaking the ability to animation cancel is one of the biggest differentiating factors between a skilled player and a bad bad player. Like try to beat vma without animation canceling on a stamblade then come here and post stuff like this.

VMA is the way it is because of animation canceling. ZOS couldn't figure out a way to fix animation canceling so they made content around it. It's like the ZOS car had a flat tire and instead of fixing the flat, they just added more tires.

Thealteregoroman

Flaminir wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I tend to think that, no matter their opinion, some players should be more respectful of Eric Wrobel as a person.

Agree.

He's actually a really nice guy when you meet him

@Flaminir

You met Wrobel?

WakeYourGhost

People hate Wrobel (And all of the Dev Team in general) any time they change anything, no matter the change or it's effect.
It's simply the Meta for Forums.
On a secondary note - The BiS for the Forums seems to be insults, claiming ZOS "Doesn't Care", and screaming out lists of forceful demands without giving any meaningful feedback or data to support those demands or give suggestions for realistic improvements.

The hate will die down when changes go Live and a Youtuber makes a new BiS/Meta video to show people how to "Overcome the New Nerfs in 5 easy steps (without actually having to use your own brain)" - At least until the next set of patch notes goes up for the PTS... Then the stream of rage starts fresh (And dredges back up for people who miss their old BiS/Meta Cookie Cutter Build)

Or, in simple terms -
Wrobel changes things, Elite players flip out, Wrobel changes things, Elite players flip out, Wrobel changes things, Elite players flip out - ad infinitum

-Note, this cycle is the same regardless of Nerfs or Buffs. It's like a constant hate-fest-contest to be the squeakiest wheel so one group's vision of "Balance" can see the light of day for a while.
If anything is buffed, everyone is pissed that someone else might be stronger than they are now - especially if it buffs a class that isn't their "Main" or a playstyle they don't use.
If anything is nerfed, they're double-pissed that a playstyle or class they may or may not use is now weaker than one other people use.
...None of these opinions need facts or research to confirm.

It's simply the natural order of things.

Doctordarkspawn

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

People hate Wrobel (And all of the Dev Team in general) any time they change anything, no matter the change or it's effect.
It's simply the Meta for Forums.
On a secondary note - The BiS for the Forums seems to be insults, claiming ZOS "Doesn't Care", and screaming out lists of forceful demands without giving any meaningful feedback or data to support those demands or give suggestions for realistic improvements.

The hate will die down when changes go Live and a Youtuber makes a new BiS/Meta video to show people how to "Overcome the New Nerfs in 5 easy steps (without actually having to use your own brain)" - At least until the next set of patch notes goes up for the PTS... Then the stream of rage starts fresh (And dredges back up for people who miss their old BiS/Meta Cookie Cutter Build)

Or, in simple terms -
Wrobel changes things, Elite players flip out, Wrobel changes things, Elite players flip out, Wrobel changes things, Elite players flip out - ad infinitum

-Note, this cycle is the same regardless of Nerfs or Buffs. It's like a constant hate-fest-contest to be the squeakiest wheel so one group's vision of "Balance" can see the light of day for a while.
If anything is buffed, everyone is pissed that someone else might be stronger than they are now - especially if it buffs a class that isn't their "Main" or a playstyle they don't use.
If anything is nerfed, they're double-pissed that a playstyle or class they may or may not use is now weaker than one other people use.
...None of these opinions need facts or research to confirm.

It's simply the natural order of things.

I despute this.

No, you're not gonna please everyone, but there are certain things that we -all- agree on. Or most do. These are win senario's they could take if they just didn't refuse to.

And it isn't like there are not shining examples (Again, FH) of Dev teams that are loved by their playerbases. The FH team gained the respect of the players and while it took a while, after what the game shipped as, they kept working. They lisened. And eventually, mutual respect was established.

ESO does not have the same thing because ESO does not -want- the same thing. Wrobel wants to dictate to us what is going to happen and if you dont go along with that, you either get no response, or a hostile one. The difference, is the FH team understands one simple rule. "The customer is allways right". And they've worked with us to the point where both sides can become reasonibly happy. ESO's never liked that rule and has chosen to ignore it at every opportunity. And the result is what we have now.

So please, lets not blame the players for what happened here. Because it's the conduct of the company that has made it that way. It's like blaming a dog for geting mean after you've put it in isolation for a few years. It isn't like it wanted to be there.

AlienatedGoat

DoctorESO wrote: »

If people actually met Eric in person, I'm sure they would not then come here and bash like there's no tomorrow. Just like when you meet any person. Until you meet them, you've dehumanized them.

Welcome to the internet.

Banana

ArchMikem wrote: »

I dunno, whats the deal with airline food?

It sucks

thedude33

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

People hate Wrobel (And all of the Dev Team in general) any time they change anything, no matter the change or it's effect.
It's simply the Meta for Forums.
On a secondary note - The BiS for the Forums seems to be insults, claiming ZOS "Doesn't Care", and screaming out lists of forceful demands without giving any meaningful feedback or data to support those demands or give suggestions for realistic improvements.

The hate will die down when changes go Live and a Youtuber makes a new BiS/Meta video to show people how to "Overcome the New Nerfs in 5 easy steps (without actually having to use your own brain)" - At least until the next set of patch notes goes up for the PTS... Then the stream of rage starts fresh (And dredges back up for people who miss their old BiS/Meta Cookie Cutter Build)

Or, in simple terms -
Wrobel changes things, Elite players flip out, Wrobel changes things, Elite players flip out, Wrobel changes things, Elite players flip out - ad infinitum

-Note, this cycle is the same regardless of Nerfs or Buffs. It's like a constant hate-fest-contest to be the squeakiest wheel so one group's vision of "Balance" can see the light of day for a while.
If anything is buffed, everyone is pissed that someone else might be stronger than they are now - especially if it buffs a class that isn't their "Main" or a playstyle they don't use.
If anything is nerfed, they're double-pissed that a playstyle or class they may or may not use is now weaker than one other people use.
...None of these opinions need facts or research to confirm.

It's simply the natural order of things.

I despute this.

No, you're not gonna please everyone, but there are certain things that we -all- agree on. Or most do. These are win senario's they could take if they just didn't refuse to.

And it isn't like there are not shining examples (Again, FH) of Dev teams that are loved by their playerbases. The FH team gained the respect of the players and while it took a while, after what the game shipped as, they kept working. They lisened. And eventually, mutual respect was established.

ESO does not have the same thing because ESO does not -want- the same thing. Wrobel wants to dictate to us what is going to happen and if you dont go along with that, you either get no response, or a hostile one. The difference, is the FH team understands one simple rule. "The customer is allways right". And they've worked with us to the point where both sides can become reasonibly happy. ESO's never liked that rule and has chosen to ignore it at every opportunity. And the result is what we have now.

So please, lets not blame the players for what happened here. Because it's the conduct of the company that has made it that way. It's like blaming a dog for geting mean after you've put it in isolation for a few years. It isn't like it wanted to be there.

Hyperbole with the hype of FH as 'proof' that ESO is doing it wrong. When in fact every games forums read the same way since EQ ..."they don't listen to the playerbase" = they don't listen to ME !

Edit: I just went on the FH forums. Post after post about unneeded nerfs and changes and how mad people are. As per norm

Jjitsuboy98

I don't know but whoever is in charge of lag needs to be let go. Seriously.

Banana

Hes playing nightblades and sorcerers next update. That is all.

Buffler

I dont care if he's a nice guy in person. Im not here to be friends and go eat cookies with the combat team. We all want a balanced ESO.

He has done one thing i thought impossible. He's made both the PVE and PVP community come together with one almighty WTF?!?!? By nerfing gap closers. You know, that skill that nobody has ever moaned about in terms of damage. EVER!

Zorgon_The_Revenged

I'm a bitter vet, I have more alts than I know what to do with and the salty tears of my enemies fills me with vigor.......Eric and his team are actually my heroes.

Fuxo

There were many (unnecessary) problems created with the arrival of the Warden class. Existing classes like dragonknights and templars were nerfed together with their distinctive skills just to make room for the warden class. And there are still ongoing efforts to control the mess they have created. I really hope they have learned some lessons and will avoid creating classes in the future. I am sure he is trying his best, but should take another perspective sometimes and think twice before using the nerf hammer. People like distinctive skills and gameplay. Generalization is one way to get things a bit balanced, but heavily decreases the fun part of the combat.

munster1404

I'm fine with him at the moment unless he decides to nerf my Argonian sustain. Then I will hate him

Flaminir

Thealteregoroman wrote: »

Flaminir wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I tend to think that, no matter their opinion, some players should be more respectful of Eric Wrobel as a person.

Agree.

He's actually a really nice guy when you meet him

@Flaminir

You met Wrobel?

@Thealteregoroman Yep, I have indeed. As I say, really nice guy... and he IS very interested in player feedback. Whats then done with that and the rationale and design briefs that he's working to behind the scenes I have no more idea than anybody else & obviously I don't agree with quite a few of those (Though I do often feel that there is a lot of forum over exageration goes on with anything he touches).
But the personal attacks on him are way off the mark... My impression when I met him was that he does care.

monktoasty

It's not all worbels fault..the nature of heirarchy in these types of environments is very nuanced. Pressure from top rolls down like an avalanche.

I do think game devs as a whole are resistant to their players ideas and wishes. I've been gaming since day 1 of gaming and this is a fact that is consistent. To much pride and stubbornness. Rarely is the relationship good which is odd to me.

I think zos does give us qol requests from time to time that we want. But overall..it's business as usual in the mmorpg wprld..complete ignore whathe people actually want.

But balance..I must admit..is based so much on perception of the player that it's the single most difficult thing to make everyone happy..it's just impossible. But this COULD BE mitigated with great customer interaction..but instead..they opt to just be silent most of the time.

Vermintide

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- every change that force them to change their way of playing

Pretty much entirely that, really.

Nothing showed it better than the Morrowind sustain changes. The salt was legendary. Players came up with all kinds of impressively elaborate, plausible sounding reasons why it was bad for the game, but at the end of the day everybody knows that underneath, the real reason, the ACTUAL reason people disliked it, Is that it made their game a bit more difficult.

Also, this is an MMORPG, there's a high level of background autism to account for.

Buffler

Vermintide wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

- every change that force them to change their way of playing

Pretty much entirely that, really.

Nothing showed it better than the Morrowind sustain changes. The salt was legendary. Players came up with all kinds of impressively elaborate, plausible sounding reasons why it was bad for the game, but at the end of the day everybody knows that underneath, the real reason, the ACTUAL reason people disliked it, Is that it made their game a bit more difficult.

Also, this is an MMORPG, there's a high level of background autism to account for.

Thing with those changes, people didnt like them but they understood why they were done. A lot of changes the reasoning is unclear. I'll use the gap closer change as an example. Why have they been nerfed? Nobody has ever mentioned them whereas the stun or snare issue (pvp related) is a major issue that gets ignored.