A bit of a moral dilemma -- what would you have done?

DoctorESO

I joined a PUG trial advertised in zone chat. This trial requires 12 people to progress due to pad mechanics. There was a voice chat channel that about half of us joined. The trial leader and maybe two or three other group members were physically located in the same room, and those group members' chatter could be heard through the trial leader's voice chat name. Midway through the trial, one of those group members (not the leader) made a violent comment about a particular category of people. I will not repeat the comment, but just to be clear, it was a comment that would get someone fired at work, or a public figure to resign or lose their job, but not something that would get someone prosecuted. The comments continued, and the trial leader told them to stop. It did not stop, and the leader wound up muting their own mic.

So, would you continue with the trial or would you leave? One way, you may be somehow condoning the bigoted views, and the other way, you do a disservice to the rest of the team.

I chose to stay and complete the trial. I felt that this was the better choice so as not to harm the rest of the team. What would you have done?

Sevalaricgirl

I would stay. People are [snip]. You can't avoid them. As long as you aren't making the comments, you shouldn't feel guilty.

[Edited to remove profanity]

phileunderx2

If whatever that person said was really bothering me I would just up and leave. no problem.

jssriot

Yeah, I feel you. In the very least I hope you got that individual's at-name and put him on your ignore list with a note to remind you why he's there.

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

I would stay. People are [snip]. You can't avoid them. As long as you aren't making the comments, you shouldn't feel guilty.

These is actually the bigger problem. Yes, there are bigots everywhere. That's because they are tolerated everywhere. There is no short supply of people who treat the bigots like they are just part of the landscape, who make excuse for them, who will tell everyone else that they are the ones who need to deal with it and not be so offended or upset--basically it's the decent people who are expected to accommodate the garbage people and no, that's not OK. Everywhere is a safe space for these bottomfeeders when you act like this.Bigots aren't inevitable--they make the choice to be like that. And as long as they don't have to face any consequences for being garbage, they will keep at it.

[Edited for quote]

PrayingSeraph

jssriot wrote: »

Yeah, I feel you. In the very least I hope you got that individual's at-name and put him on your ignore list with a note to remind you why he's there.

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

I would stay. People are [snip]. You can't avoid them. As long as you aren't making the comments, you shouldn't feel guilty.

These is actually the bigger problem. Yes, there are bigots everywhere. That's because they are tolerated everywhere. There is no short supply of people who treat the bigots like they are just part of the landscape, who make excuse for them, who will tell everyone else that they are the ones who need to deal with it and not be so offended or upset--basically it's the decent people who are expected to accommodate the garbage people and no, that's not OK. Everywhere is a safe space for these bottomfeeders when you act like this.Bigots aren't inevitable--they make the choice to be like that. And as long as they don't have to face any consequences for being garbage, they will keep at it.

Problem is that the very word "bigot" is an incredibly abused word. People on all sides throw it around at those they disagree with in an attempt to discredit them

However the Law should always be neutral and tolerant to all ideaologies and viewpoints. Hence freedom of speech. Anything else or any thought policing becomes Orwellian.Private institutions and buisinesses however are allowed to create and act on their own codes of conduct.

In regards to OP, I'd just mute\block. I swear its the most underrated feature in ESO

[Edited for quote]

monktoasty

People have a right to say what they want and be bigots and hate who and what they want.

It's no one's job to police them or make them stop. It's just your job to ignore them.

Hippie4927

I support free speech but that doesn't mean I have to stick around and listen to it or not say how I feel about it. If the leader wouldn't kick the jerk, then I would leave. Some things in life are more important than a game/trial.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Feel free to cut people you find toxic out of your life, but don't beat yourself too much for staying through the round. Staying does not mean you condone everything that people say.

You aren't going to change someone's deeply held views by leaving a raid. And the whole "you should always confront people; they are only toxic because good people do nothing" mentality is dangerously militant and just creates an atmosphere of self-righteous culture warriors all fighting to be the most moral. Morality is relative. Everyone is biased in some way. Work on being your best self and don't worry about trying to correct others.

Kingslayer513

I personally would have stayed. To me, all that kind of stuff is just general gaming banter and I couldn't care less. They probably were just being edgy and not actually serious. What I really don't understand why someone would feel so troubled by this that they would be compelled to create a forum post about it.

Ackwalan

You don't want to live in a world where the thought police rule. It does not end well.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

I personally would have stayed. To me, all that kind of stuff is just general gaming banter and I couldn't care less. They probably were just being edgy and not actually serious. What I really don't understand why someone would feel so troubled by this that they would be compelled to create a forum post about it.

Welcome to the last 5 years of political correctness lol. If you hear any bad words or bad opinions, you are honor bound to virtue signal so that everyone knows you are a not a baddie too.

I was in a trial were someone was wearing ashen grip and hard casting frags. I felt bad for staying since i dont want to condone anyone wearing ashen grip and want everyone to know that I only wear BIS meta gear and never hardcast.

Lysette

monktoasty wrote: »

People have a right to say what they want and be bigots and hate who and what they want.

It's no one's job to police them or make them stop. It's just your job to ignore them.

Actually, freedom of speech in the US meaning is not a "right" anywhere else in the world - people are not meant to say what they want without to care for some decency. In most european countries you could eventually get a fine for doing so and eventually even have to compensate the hurt you have caused to the victim of your speech, if the offense was severe enough.

Edit: This said, most "terms of service"of MMOs have rules for that as well, which limit "freedom of speech" to how it is handled in the rest of the world - so in most MMOs you can get punished for a violation like this.

Vaoh

Imo, who cares what some random people say amongst themselves.

It may be messed up but don’t allow some random comment to ruin your own gameplay when they’re the ones at fault. Also if you left they would’ve found a replacement - in the end you are the only one who loses out.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

This thread is so sensible it's giving me hope for the future.

Acrolas

The group leader handled the situation poorly, and hanging out with people like that will only wind up reflecting poorly on him.

I would have said, 'I don't condone that behavior but I'm not going to punish everyone, either. I'll take appropriate action once we are finished.'


Nevermind, it's that doc guy so this probably never even happened.

PrayingSeraph

Lysette wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

People have a right to say what they want and be bigots and hate who and what they want.

It's no one's job to police them or make them stop. It's just your job to ignore them.

Actually, freedom of speech in the US meaning is not a "right" anywhere else in the world - people are not meant to say what they want without to care for some decency. In most european countries you could eventually get a fine for doing so and eventually even have to compensate the hurt you have caused to the victim of your speech, if the offense was severe enough.

That is correct, and such countries are somewhat Orwellian. I am Canadian, my country too lacks freedom of speech. And I highly oppose this. I am against the idea that people have the legal right to be protected from "offensive"(whatever that is) speech.

runagate

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

This thread is so sensible it's giving me hope for the future.

More clickbait from someone with no conscience whose only interest in a "moral dilemma" is how much controversy can be stirred up.

Course, tonight there's plenty of that on the front page. And you're all falling for it.

Lysette

PrayingSeraph wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

People have a right to say what they want and be bigots and hate who and what they want.

It's no one's job to police them or make them stop. It's just your job to ignore them.

Actually, freedom of speech in the US meaning is not a "right" anywhere else in the world - people are not meant to say what they want without to care for some decency. In most european countries you could eventually get a fine for doing so and eventually even have to compensate the hurt you have caused to the victim of your speech, if the offense was severe enough.

That is correct, and such countries are somewhat Orwellian. I am Canadian, my country too lacks freedom of speech. And I highly oppose this. I am against the idea that people have the legal right to be protected from "offensive"(whatever that is) speech.

Ok, Canadian is a very special case, because being overly friendly and tolerant is a very canadian thing to do - to the point, where it should not be tolerated, so I understand why you are opposed to it.

Kingslayer513

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Kingslayer513 wrote: »

I personally would have stayed. To me, all that kind of stuff is just general gaming banter and I couldn't care less. They probably were just being edgy and not actually serious. What I really don't understand why someone would feel so troubled by this that they would be compelled to create a forum post about it.

Welcome to the last 5 years of political correctness lol. If you hear any bad words or bad opinions, you are honor bound to virtue signal so that everyone knows you are a not a baddie too.

Ah yes, I think OP pulled the old switcheroo: pose a community question about "what would you do?", but not really looking for an answer, just wanting to show off how morally superior you are to a bunch of strangers in game. A timeless classic.

geonsocal

gotta say doc - without question - you have been one of the more memorable posters to join the forums in quite some time...

I can't remember any one else generating so many strong feelings amongst other posters...

you need your own talk show doc...

dsalter

DoctorESO wrote: »

I joined a PUG trial advertised in zone chat. This trial requires 12 people to progress due to pad mechanics. There was a voice chat channel that about half of us joined. The trial leader and maybe two or three other group members were physically located in the same room, and those group members' chatter could be heard through the trial leader's voice chat name. Midway through the trial, one of those group members (not the leader) made a violent comment about a particular category of people. I will not repeat the comment, but just to be clear, it was a comment that would get someone fired at work, or a public figure to resign or lose their job, but not something that would get someone prosecuted. The comments continued, and the trial leader told them to stop. It did not stop, and the leader wound up muting their own mic.

So, would you continue with the trial or would you leave? One way, you may be somehow condoning the bigoted views, and the other way, you do a disservice to the rest of the team.

I chose to stay and complete the trial. I felt that this was the better choice so as not to harm the rest of the team. What would you have done?

if you knew their @ name then i'd have put them on a black list for you and your friends (aka tell them to avoid that person) and report it in full detail.
had a similar experience once, though rather than racial it was disability targetted, short story the guy was talking to his... friend i think? about how bad autistic people are... when he decided to talk to the group again we said we are kicking him from the guild, because turns out our best healer in the raid group was in fact autistic and only 3 out of 10 of us knew this.

when he gave him the boot we laughed so hard because all the insulting labels they put on autism, were that they were "dumb" or "stupid" but our best healer had done every raid in wow hell some of them on the mythic difficulty, the guy had a very high level of intellect as well, he'd be one of the first in the guild to know the easiest way to do content

moral is the only time hate should be applied, is people who cheat, steal, or bully otherwise, you yourself deserve the hate if using one of 3

Voxicity

I would stay. I don't care what someone's view is of the world or the people on it. We're playing a video game and if they want to be racist/sexist in the comfort of their own home then I'll let them be, as long as they muted or I had the option to mute then if I wanted to (which I probably wouldn't anyway, it's interesting to hear people's opinions even if you don't agree with them)

Aisle9

The virtue is strong with this one

Sharee

Of course i would stay. By leaving i would be hurting more people than i would by staying.

And i also do not share the opinion that by staying i would condone what is being said. My presence in there is to do the trial, not to confirm someone's views.

Princess_Ciri

I would have left. I've left guilds in the past because members have been racist/sexist/homophobic etc.

Idc if it's only 1 person out of 12, if the other people want to continue playing with someone who is that gross then I am happy to not spend time with them either. I don't owe any time to bigots

Yolokin_Swagonborn

runagate wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

This thread is so sensible it's giving me hope for the future.

More clickbait from someone with no conscience whose only interest in a "moral dilemma" is how much controversy can be stirred up.

Course, tonight there's plenty of that on the front page. And you're all falling for it.

I'm talking about the answers he's getting not the OP ya muppet.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

DoctorESO wrote: »

I joined a PUG trial advertised in zone chat. This trial requires 12 people to progress due to pad mechanics. There was a voice chat channel that about half of us joined. The trial leader and maybe two or three other group members were physically located in the same room, and those group members' chatter could be heard through the trial leader's voice chat name. Midway through the trial, one of those group members (not the leader) made a violent comment about a particular category of people. I will not repeat the comment, but just to be clear, it was a comment that would get someone fired at work, or a public figure to resign or lose their job, but not something that would get someone prosecuted. The comments continued, and the trial leader told them to stop. It did not stop, and the leader wound up muting their own mic.

So, would you continue with the trial or would you leave? One way, you may be somehow condoning the bigoted views, and the other way, you do a disservice to the rest of the team.

I chose to stay and complete the trial. I felt that this was the better choice so as not to harm the rest of the team. What would you have done?

Fischblut

I was in groups with unpleasant people quite a few times But I don't leave groups even when I'm angry - because my ultimate goal is to complete the run. Then I simply blacklist the bad person (and make a note so they will stay in my blacklist forever).

Abysswarrior45

This thread gave me a good laugh, thank you for that! Honestly, if you're so bothered by what was said then just leave the group or mute them. Its that simple. They probably say the things they do to get under your skin because you make it too damn easy and the forum post about it is icing on the cake for them. So listen, buttercup, just play the game and ignore the people who don't appeal to you.

Streega

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Feel free to cut people you find toxic out of your life, but don't beat yourself too much for staying through the round. Staying does not mean you condone everything that people say.

You aren't going to change someone's deeply held views by leaving a raid. And the whole "you should always confront people; they are only toxic because good people do nothing" mentality is dangerously militant and just creates an atmosphere of self-righteous culture warriors all fighting to be the most moral. Morality is relative. Everyone is biased in some way. Work on being your best self and don't worry about trying to correct others.

You don't have to engage in discussion and/or be toxic, just state calmly "I do not tolerate such behaviour" and leave. Maybe it won't change them, but you will allow yourself to be changed for worse if you stay.

MjolnirVilkas

That's why I don't use discord unless it's really neccessary. You don't need a voice chat for any of the normal content and even most veteran content. Exceptions being the hardest DLC dungeons and trials (vetHoF/AS/MoL/ect).


Also, if it was a racist/homophobic/sexist remark in a derogatory sense (not comedic/sarcastic even though that doesn't make it much better), I would just kick the person. But on the other hand, we do live in fragile times where everyone gets triggered by literally anything and are tripping over themselves just to be offended.

In Battlefield 3 there were servers that actually got you auto-banned for dropping n-bombs and similar. And if I saw some one using extremely offensive slurs, I always started a ban vote against them.

I support freedom of speech but also believe you should know the consequences of abusing your freedoms.