new 15 day and 7 day research scrolls

clocksstoppe

Lol pay 2 win. You can pay to craft your 9trait set and then come get stomped in pvp by 6trait and cyrodiil ones. More like pay 2 lose.

monktoasty

15 day is instant..not a little. It's like lvl 50 and 200 skill points scroll.

I don't really care I'm just saying..might as well give the lvl 50 scrolls if they are going to give instant traits

Waffennacht

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monktoasty wrote: »

15 day is instant..not a little. It's like lvl 50 and 200 skill points scroll.

I don't really care I'm just saying..might as well give the lvl 50 scrolls if they are going to give instant traits

With CP scrolls and SR it is already insta 50...

But I digress. As a 9 trait crafter I'm not bothered by it all.

Why? Because it's clearly a way to ease the burden on new players. Players like me already have it maxed and have for a bit, I can take advantage of it by leveling an alt, a new player comes in and sees 180 day type wait and may decide to forgo the whole thing.

And I've always crafted for free. I haven't heard of any 1 charging (tips do come though, like every time though I never ask) after the first year (like bites)

I think it's fine

Talrol

It is not pay to win if an item is also available via non-cash means (I.E. The writ vendor.) For 15 day scroll just buy 15 1 day scrolls and use one every day and you will still reduce the time the same as using one 15 day scroll.

I don't believe that a new scroll is needed.

Cpt_Teemo

monktoasty wrote: »

It's pay to win feature. Instant 9 trait masters with enough $$$$

If this is the road they want..why not sell lvl 50 scrolls and 100 200 300 skill points scrolls

And make everything account wide and just be done with it

helediron

I have 15 nine trait crafters. Making them is a routine and nine traits is no longer that important as it was few years ago. Let ZOS earn some money, i think.

monktoasty

Pay to win has a few meanings. One is pay to bypass game contebt..ie..pay for power ups to pass a level..so..paying to not wait 2 weeks and do it in 5 seconds IS pay to win. It goes beyond cosmetic.

Iluvrien

Yet another message from ZOS to existing crafters that the time and energy they spent is not valued by the company that instituted these systems in the first place.

Research scrolls should have never been introduced into the game in the first place. What should have happened is that the research system should have been made more engaging and interactive. Instead we have ZOS leaving (or creating) a grind so as to drive crown sales. What a surprise.

Hanokihs

A lot of people here don't seem to understand what "Pay to Win" actually means. A P2W game is a game where you can't break the artificial ceiling and join top tier without a cash investment; traditionally, the more money you toss at such a system, the easier it is to stay on top, and that's how the devs plan their profits. "P2W" is a serious gaming flaw, particularly when it comes to titles with competitive attributes; it's not meant to be a wall you hide behind while flinging salt and vinegar about how newbies have it too easy since, back in your day, you had to walk 30 miles in the snow, uphill both ways, in order to unlock your convenience features. Y'all whiners need to quit being petty, accept that grinding isn't fun, and understand that nobody cares about the annoyance-based merit badges you earned by slogging through pointlessly tedious content.

On a similar note, who even cares about trait research? Okay, so people can get 6-9 trait items sooner, but don't you think anyone who actually cares about builds would've managed to research the appropriate traits they need by now? Or paid off another player? And even if they haven't, they're... what, a month behind the curve, tops? Yeah, how dare they demand a boost. The game meta is now woefully imbalanced; LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE.

monktoasty

Hanokihs wrote: »

A lot of people here don't seem to understand what "Pay to Win" actually means. A P2W game is a game where you can't break the artificial ceiling and join top tier without a cash investment; traditionally, the more money you toss at such a system, the easier it is to stay on top, and that's how the devs plan their profits. "P2W" is a serious gaming flaw, particularly when it comes to titles with competitive attributes; it's not meant to be a wall you hide behind while flinging salt and vinegar about how newbies have it too easy since, back in your day, you had to walk 30 miles in the snow, uphill both ways, in order to unlock your convenience features. Y'all whiners need to quit being petty, accept that grinding isn't fun, and understand that nobody cares about the annoyance-based merit badges you earned by slogging through pointlessly tedious content.

On a similar note, who even cares about trait research? Okay, so people can get 6-9 trait items sooner, but don't you think anyone who actually cares about builds would've managed to research the appropriate traits they need by now? Or paid off another player? And even if they haven't, they're... what, a month behind the curve, tops? Yeah, how dare they demand a boost. The game meta is now woefully imbalanced; LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE.

Thato one deffinition..another is that you pay cash to bypass game content to get to the top faster.

My point is that if it's ok to pay cash to save time on traits than its fine to pay cash to get to lvl 50 and buy skill points to bypass the boring grind.

I'm not against this I'm just being real here

NewBlacksmurf

Depending on the price......

It’s a good thing, it should’ve always been a thing the bad is everything is crown based. You can’t just play the game anymore and unlock or obtain QoL

And....no they don’t need our money they are charging folks for all other stuff. If they are that underfunded they need to sale the game to a capable developer

Kiralyn2000

Hanokihs wrote: »

A lot of people here don't seem to understand what "Pay to Win" actually means. A P2W game is a game where you can't break the artificial ceiling and join top tier without a cash investment; traditionally, the more money you toss at such a system, the easier it is to stay on top, and that's how the devs plan their profits. "P2W" is a serious gaming flaw, particularly when it comes to titles with competitive attributes; it's not meant to be a wall you hide behind while flinging salt and vinegar about how newbies have it too easy since, back in your day, you had to walk 30 miles in the snow, uphill both ways, in order to unlock your convenience features. Y'all whiners need to quit being petty, accept that grinding isn't fun, and understand that nobody cares about the annoyance-based merit badges you earned by slogging through pointlessly tedious content.

Yeah, I remember some f2p games I briefly tried, back in the old days, that had features like:
- open world PvP, where the enemy could loot your gear off your corpse.... unless you bought consumable "insurance"
- games where to compete, you needed to 'enchant' your gear to +10, with a tiny % chance of success and possibility of the gear being destroyed... unless you bought consumable 'enchantment boosters'
- games where the best pvp gear came from the cash shop.
- games with all of those systems simultaneously.

That's p2w.

Jura23

No problém, but they should also introduce some rewards for those who research(ed) the old way.

Nihility42

Amadis001 wrote: »

Too much pay-to-win. I've sweated out 9 traits on my crafter over the last 15 months, and I'm not happy that anyone with $$ can just catch up and then influence the in-game economy adverse to my interests.

You mean you clicked a button once every few days or few weeks? You didn't sweat anything out, you didn't have to even be logged in for the research to tick away. It was nothing but a time gate. And how will people use this to influence the economy? Sell more crafted sets? Who even pays for those at this point, other than providing mats? This will have no noticeable effect on the game or economy. Master crafters are a dime a dozen. This won't change that.

jssriot

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Lol pay 2 win. You can pay to craft your 9trait set and then come get stomped in pvp by 6trait and cyrodiil ones. More like pay 2 lose.

That's not the benefit of being a 9 trait crafter. Right now, it's being able to do more master writs, and more importantly, some that reward a very large amount of vouchers. that alone isn't p2w but doing more writs means getting more vouchers which means being able to sell items from the master writ vendor are a very nice profit.

Less obviously, as you don't need to be 9-trait in everything to use teh transmutation system is that you can transmute more things. Already have 7 traits on dagger but not nirnhorned, so you can't transmute that VO dagger you farmed to nirnhorned yet? Here's a scroll so you don't have to wait too long to get your build up to date with current meta. Yeah, that's feeling a bit p2w to me.

ClockworkCityBugs

they must be available for vouchers at Rollis Hlaalu, isnt it?

Niobium

What I read was that people want to protect the profit they make from selling items bought with writ vouchers.

Ohtimbar

Meh, I have several master crafters and it wasn't worth the massive time investment. Crafted sets were eclipsed by dropped sets ages ago. If I were starting the game today I wouldn't even bother, much less spend real money on it. If people want to set their own money on fire, more power to them.

Aisle9

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Everyone is missing the big picture. I'm a good example.

Started at early release and now have some 16-18 full 9/9 crafters.

With 9/9, in theory, you receive more master writs. In practice, if I run them all through daily writs, I will have 50-100 master writs in a week.

Vouchers are very profitable. Furniture recipes, a number of gold recipes, target dummies, attunement stations, the 1 day research accelerator.

Now people can buy their way to something I worked towards over the life of the game, with the end result being the ruination of any voucher related market that exists....

Eh, I'm not against it, I certainly got mileage out of the exclusivity period. But there should be some benefit for time in the saddle. Maybe a t-shirt that says "I'm a full year 9/9 loser!"

"I spent a year to get 9/9 traits and all I got was this stupid T-Shirt"

Yes, that would lessen the butthurt a bit, for a time

Niobium wrote: »

What I read was that people want to protect the profit they make from selling items bought with writ vouchers.

Yep, those pesky kids, that worked for a year to get where they are... totally not deserved, they should be punished!

... right ?

dekzz

First soul shriven motif, now this. I agree it shouldve been toned down a bit, but this is just too much. Wonder what they're gonna do next to spit on players who invested crapload of time to farm something

Ftiryaki13

jlboozer wrote: »

It is edging ever closer to a p2w item in my opinion. So I had to take a whole year to be a 9 trait crafter, but now any kid with his moms credit card can get on day 1 and pay his way to 9 traits. I really don't like the way this is going, not to mention it cheapens all the time I spent actually researching my way to being a 9 trait crafter. I hope ZoS rethinks this, it's a horrible idea.

So true.. I dont think ZOS will be doing such a change.

Jhalin

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

It's pay to win feature. Instant 9 trait masters with enough $$$$

I'm on the 8-9 trait border with most of my crafts, the long way, but I'm curious. What exactly do you "win" with mastering 9 traits?

An overinflated sense of pride and pretty much only that, speaking from experience

None of the 9 trait sets are any good these days. And it's easier (and cheaper) to buy a bunch of low voucher writs to do than it is to use up to 50k worth of mats on a "jackpot" master writ.

Even if it's about the nirnhoned trait, it can be researched first and 1 day later you've got all the benefits of being a master crafter. 17k per Nirn Weapon, 10k per Nirn armor up on the traders.

Jhalin

SydneyGrey wrote: »

monktoasty wrote: »

It's pay to win feature. Instant 9 trait masters with enough $$$$
If this is the road they want..why not sell lvl 50 scrolls and 100 200 300 skill points scrolls

Just making something go a little faster is not "pay to win."

To be fair, it's more like "significantly faster"

But toward a goal that doesn't matter a whole lot

Iluvrien

Niobium wrote: »

What I read was that people want to protect the profit they make from selling items bought with writ vouchers.

How you read it says more about you than them.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Not just in reply to this poster but the others who say "this isn't important/worth it/a problem"...

.. you don't get to decide what is important to other people. That includes defining why (or not) things should be considered important/problematic.

Merlin13KAGL

Unless there's some 9 trait BiS crafted gear (which there isn't, last I checked) that was only obtainable via these scrolls, then it's not P2W.

Instant gratification? Money for ZoS? Yes.

P2W? No.

heaven13

Well, ZOS keeps adding arbitrary sinks (gold sinks, voucher sinks in the form of voucher stuff climbing higher and higher) because their metrics are seeing some people are sitting on stockpiles of them.

Yet they're going to introduce a way to get 9 traits faster which means more people getting writs which means items bought with writs will go down in price because more people can buy them themselves (or the items are not worth reselling like some purple furnishing plans) which means they'll then just need to introduce more sinks.

If this was about helping the player and being friendly to newbies or making things more convenient, they could do stuff like has been asked with horse training: bulk buy. Buy 60 riding lessons (15k gold) at a time. Still takes the same amount of time, or really a little less, but you don't have to check in and remember everyday. Researching could be done the same: set up more than one research item per gear slot. Only one runs at a time like always, but when it's finished, it starts doing next. But...that's not what this is about.

Sure smells a lot like just trying to monetize something else. As if there isn't already enough as is. $80+ houses, $40 mundus stones, $50 assistants, crown crates, etc.

Ftiryaki13

My personal opinion (and I am not a master crafter with all 9 traits/ pieces) is that any "master" skill or attribute should be earned, not bought. Otherwise, this would not end with 9 trait craftsmanship. The outcome of such skills (i.e. products) should be accessible for money, not the skills themselves, for the sake of diversity and consistency.

Elsonso

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Ftiryaki13 wrote: »

My personal opinion (and I am not a master crafter with all 9 traits/ pieces) is that any "master" skill or attribute should be earned, not bought. Otherwise, this would not end with 9 trait craftsmanship. The outcome of such skills (i.e. products) should be accessible for money, not the skills themselves, for the sake of diversity and consistency.

Compared to launch, crafting is an increasingly personal activity, and one that does not confer an insurmountable benefit. Actually, it can be said that using only crafted equipment is a disadvantage. Unless they change course, a 9 trait crafter will be a footnote achievement. A personal goal. At that point, it does not matter how you get there. Whatever satisfies the individual.

I don't think that the Production staff thinks favorably about crafting. At least, not when compared to other things they can do. I am expecting it to only get worse.

Flaminir

If anybody here truly feels that 9 trait sets like 'Armour Master' are pay to win then you can happily pay me... I'll make you the set and you can go and win at everything!

Let me know how it goes!

Niobium

Aisle9 wrote: »

Niobium wrote: »

What I read was that people want to protect the profit they make from selling items bought with writ vouchers.

Yep, those pesky kids, that worked for a year to get where they are... totally not deserved, they should be punished!

... right ?

The scrolls won't take anything away from the people with 9 traits.. it's not like every time someone uses one a 9 trait crafter suddenly becomes an 8 trait crafter. There's zero punishment. 9 trait crafters are still 9 trait crafters. Unless, of course, you mean, they're scooping up the more difficult writs and flipping them for profit at the merchant - in which case, thank you for proving my point.

Also reasonably sure anyone who wants to do this has had plenty of time to do so.

I'm 9 traits on multiple characters - I don't care if people want to throw their money at ZOS. In fact, I hope they do. More money to ZOS so the servers keep running.

Don't need 9 traits to do writs - there's plenty of writs out there that require next to nothing.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Niobium wrote: »

What I read was that people want to protect the profit they make from selling items bought with writ vouchers.

How you read it says more about you than them.

For your consideration:

jssriot wrote: »

That's not the benefit of being a 9 trait crafter. Right now, it's being able to do more master writs, and more importantly, some that reward a very large amount of vouchers. that alone isn't p2w but doing more writs means getting more vouchers which means being able to sell items from the master writ vendor are a very nice profit.

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

Vouchers are very profitable. Furniture recipes, a number of gold recipes, target dummies, attunement stations, the 1 day research accelerator.

Now people can buy their way to something I worked towards over the life of the game, with the end result being the ruination of any voucher related market that exists....

These two were just the ones honest enough to say it.