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Ok let's have a realistic discussion about MagDK nerfs

  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    @DDuke I have so much spare stam since I don't really block that I now use sprint as a defense mechanism. Lord knows I can't sustain healing/wings/general mag, after all the changes.

    There was no reason for the battle roar change, it hurt pve, it hurt pvp. Its just not good, and now block glyphs have been nerfed there is no reason it shouldnt be changed back.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
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    SirDopey wrote: »
    DK's are underperforming in PVP?????


    Where's is this coming from? Are people playing different versions of the game? What is the basis for stating that DK's are underperforming?

    Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.

    Ok, they MIGHT be under performing for YOUR playstyle but they certainly arn't in the greater scheme. You guys need to keep in mind that if ZOS caves into your tears and gives DK's unwarranted buffs then all those guys + gals that are already running around solo 1 v Xing will only get even stronger.

    If the class doesn't suit your playstyle then don't play it, play one that does

    I can't even respond to this because my hand is to busy holding my face at how ignorant and wrong this post is


    I mean... Did you even READ my post and my points I clearly gave that showed you my supporting information to back up my claims?
    Edited by Nelson_Rebel on January 29, 2018 9:56PM
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.


    You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".

    Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.

    Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".


    I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.

    •Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters

    And is still the strongest single target CC in the game.
    •Battle Roar nerfed our resource return to our max stay which is the only one that matters, and FURTHER reduced it to only 46 points per ultimate point for each resource

    Is you max stamina less than 11 500? That's what using Standard returns to you. Using Leap returns 5750 stamina, I doubt your max stam pool is that low, considering that even a naked character with zero attributes to stamina has 7958 stamina.

    If your resource pool was below 26K before the changes, your sustain for that resource has been buffed. This was stated fairly clearly in the Morrowind patch notes:
    Earthen Heart
    Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
    •Helping hands was a flat nerf to return

    Umm, no. Not unless you're a stam DK.

    See, Helping Hands used to return 4% of your maximum stamina and now it returns a flat 990.

    Which means if you're at, say, 12k maximum stamina, it now returns 990, where as with the previous passive it would return only 480.

    Quite a "nerf".
    •you left out both standard nerf, and off balance and power lash nerf

    Fairly sure I detailed Off Balance in my first post, but I guess you didn't understand it.

    If you think Standard could use buffs, cool. I'm indifferent.


    I won't dignify the rude part of your post with a reply. If you think mDK is underperforming on Live (or PTS), you know where to find me - I gladly to prove it wrong :smile:

    Best CC??

    Have you never seen fear? lmao or rune cage which is the EXACT same as fossilize except has
    even BETTER range nearly 40 meters in PVp

    Fear is melee range and doesn't deal 3k'ish dmg in PvP+root the target, Rune Cage has a clunky delay on it and also deals no damage when people CC break it.
    The resource return on standards is neglible because only one side using standards are people who don't know that you can no longer build ultimate while standard is up anymore, You must have forgot that nerf small detail

    I just wrote to you that I don't care about standard. If it's weak, by all means buff it - I don't use it so it probably is pretty weak or doesn't fit a high dmg destro/resto build.
    Leap only returns about 4.7 k . And since dk's skills cost the most that's exactly two whips and gone lmao. Sure it returns stam but that's fine with a single block in pvp lolol you have never played a real mag dk

    Leap returns 5750.

    125 Costx46(resource per ultimate point)=5750.
    110 Cost(Stam Morph)x46=5060

    I guess you do have difficulties with mathematics.
    You are continually wrong and dodgy

    ...and I've lost count on how many times I've had to correct you - I'm done here.
    Edited by DDuke on January 29, 2018 9:57PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    @DDuke I have so much spare stam since I don't really block that I now use sprint as a defense mechanism. Lord knows I can't sustain healing/wings/general mag, after all the changes.

    There was no reason for the battle roar change, it hurt pve, it hurt pvp. Its just not good, and now block glyphs have been nerfed there is no reason it shouldnt be changed back.

    Well, that's exactly why we should speak of "changes" and not "nerfs".


    My destro/resto DK has absolutely no problems with magicka sustain thanks to Elemental Drain, and I know I'd be getting unbreakable CCs if it wasn't for Helping Hands & Battle Roar stam returns.

    I run zero block cost reduction, stam regen etc etc on my build - zero.
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    "Ok let's have a realistic discussion about MagDK nerfs "

    Erupts into a flaming.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    "Ok let's have a realistic discussion about MagDK nerfs "

    Erupts into a flaming.

    When he's trying to go on a crusade and insult yes I will respond in kind


    I refuse to let anyone talk down to me and I never will
  • Savos_Saren
    Savos_Saren
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    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.


    You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".

    Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.

    Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".


    I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.

    •Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters

    And is still the strongest single target CC in the game.
    •Battle Roar nerfed our resource return to our max stay which is the only one that matters, and FURTHER reduced it to only 46 points per ultimate point for each resource

    Is you max stamina less than 11 500? That's what using Standard returns to you. Using Leap returns 5750 stamina, I doubt your max stam pool is that low, considering that even a naked character with zero attributes to stamina has 7958 stamina.

    If your resource pool was below 26K before the changes, your sustain for that resource has been buffed. This was stated fairly clearly in the Morrowind patch notes:
    Earthen Heart
    Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
    •Helping hands was a flat nerf to return

    Umm, no. Not unless you're a stam DK.

    See, Helping Hands used to return 4% of your maximum stamina and now it returns a flat 990.

    Which means if you're at, say, 12k maximum stamina, it now returns 990, where as with the previous passive it would return only 480.

    Quite a "nerf".
    •you left out both standard nerf, and off balance and power lash nerf

    Fairly sure I detailed Off Balance in my first post, but I guess you didn't understand it.

    If you think Standard could use buffs, cool. I'm indifferent.


    I won't dignify the rude part of your post with a reply. If you think mDK is underperforming on Live (or PTS), you know where to find me - I gladly to prove it wrong :smile:

    Best CC??

    Have you never seen fear? lmao or rune cage which is the EXACT same as fossilize except has
    even BETTER range nearly 40 meters in PVp


    The resource return on standards is neglible because only one still using standards are people who don't know that you can no longer build ultimate while standard is up anymore.

    You must have forgot that nerf small detail


    Leap only returns about 4.7 k . And since dk's skills cost the most that's exactly two whips and gone lmao. Sure it returns stam but that's fine with a single block in pvp lolol you have never played a real mag dk




    You are continually wrong and dodgy

    While I commend you for asking for DK buffs- I gotta correct you on the “not building ultimate while standard is up” part. I can 100% confirm that you can build ultimate while Standard is up. I do it, frequently, in PVP and PVE.

    On rare occasions, you can get a Leap off as soon as the Shifting Standard expires.
    Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.

    PC NA AD
    Savos Saren
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.


    You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".

    Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.

    Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".


    I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.

    •Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters

    And is still the strongest single target CC in the game.
    •Battle Roar nerfed our resource return to our max stay which is the only one that matters, and FURTHER reduced it to only 46 points per ultimate point for each resource

    Is you max stamina less than 11 500? That's what using Standard returns to you. Using Leap returns 5750 stamina, I doubt your max stam pool is that low, considering that even a naked character with zero attributes to stamina has 7958 stamina.

    If your resource pool was below 26K before the changes, your sustain for that resource has been buffed. This was stated fairly clearly in the Morrowind patch notes:
    Earthen Heart
    Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
    •Helping hands was a flat nerf to return

    Umm, no. Not unless you're a stam DK.

    See, Helping Hands used to return 4% of your maximum stamina and now it returns a flat 990.

    Which means if you're at, say, 12k maximum stamina, it now returns 990, where as with the previous passive it would return only 480.

    Quite a "nerf".
    •you left out both standard nerf, and off balance and power lash nerf

    Fairly sure I detailed Off Balance in my first post, but I guess you didn't understand it.

    If you think Standard could use buffs, cool. I'm indifferent.


    I won't dignify the rude part of your post with a reply. If you think mDK is underperforming on Live (or PTS), you know where to find me - I gladly to prove it wrong :smile:

    Best CC??

    Have you never seen fear? lmao or rune cage which is the EXACT same as fossilize except has
    even BETTER range nearly 40 meters in PVp


    The resource return on standards is neglible because only one still using standards are people who don't know that you can no longer build ultimate while standard is up anymore.

    You must have forgot that nerf small detail


    Leap only returns about 4.7 k . And since dk's skills cost the most that's exactly two whips and gone lmao. Sure it returns stam but that's fine with a single block in pvp lolol you have never played a real mag dk




    You are continually wrong and dodgy

    While I commend you for asking for DK buffs- I gotta correct you on the “not building ultimate while standard is up” part. I can 100% confirm that you can build ultimate while Standard is up. I do it, frequently, in PVP and PVE.

    On rare occasions, you can get a Leap off as soon as the Shifting Standard expires.

    I'm quite sure one of the morphs doesn't allow ult to build.

    If I'm wrong so be it, But I'm rather sure something bugged out or was changed by ZoS specifically not allowing ult regen
  • Put
    Put
    ✭✭✭
    and the stam dk to a lesser extent

    Found the guy who's never played Stam DK

    I have, and I understand the issues.


    But stam dk does have better mobility with access to working gap closers, and executes in both the 2h skill line, and the bow skill line.


    I'm under no allusions they are fairing a lot
    better but that do have a different set of issues with relying solely on dizzy swing and leap combo's

    Having just leveled a Mag DK, and having mained a Stam DK for 2 and a half years I can tell you honestly that Mag DK is not OP, but not in a bad place compared to Stam DK. It needs some slight buffs. While Stam Dk is literally broken. It's the worst class currently by a large margin in PVP, and it's bad at every facet of PVP.

    I can agree here, but there are far better stam
    sets that synergize well. Better than any mag dk set at least. Like 7th legion and hunting's setup with bloodspawn. Insanely tanky, huge damage,
    and good ult spam with leap combo's

    But you're right that passives for stam morphs need a rework as well.


    Neither dk side is doing good at all in pvp right now

    I'm guessing you mean hundings, and I disagree strongly. I ran hundings for a year up until Morrowind, and let me tell you that you will not sustain for more than 15 seconds, the set was good when low regen/high max stat was favoured for DK's but battle roar does nothing for stam builds anymore. You will be on the defensive for most of the fight so trying high pressure just wont work anymore in anything more than a 1v1.

    Bone pirate is a must for medium DK's post morrowind.
    Flawless Conqueror Stam DK 551k - 370 CP
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    ✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.


    You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".

    Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.

    Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".


    I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.

    •Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters

    And is still the strongest single target CC in the game.
    •Battle Roar nerfed our resource return to our max stay which is the only one that matters, and FURTHER reduced it to only 46 points per ultimate point for each resource

    Is you max stamina less than 11 500? That's what using Standard returns to you. Using Leap returns 5750 stamina, I doubt your max stam pool is that low, considering that even a naked character with zero attributes to stamina has 7958 stamina.

    If your resource pool was below 26K before the changes, your sustain for that resource has been buffed. This was stated fairly clearly in the Morrowind patch notes:
    Earthen Heart
    Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
    •Helping hands was a flat nerf to return

    Umm, no. Not unless you're a stam DK.

    See, Helping Hands used to return 4% of your maximum stamina and now it returns a flat 990.

    Which means if you're at, say, 12k maximum stamina, it now returns 990, where as with the previous passive it would return only 480.

    Quite a "nerf".
    •you left out both standard nerf, and off balance and power lash nerf

    Fairly sure I detailed Off Balance in my first post, but I guess you didn't understand it.

    If you think Standard could use buffs, cool. I'm indifferent.


    I won't dignify the rude part of your post with a reply. If you think mDK is underperforming on Live (or PTS), you know where to find me - I gladly to prove it wrong :smile:

    Best CC??

    Have you never seen fear? lmao or rune cage which is the EXACT same as fossilize except has
    even BETTER range nearly 40 meters in PVp


    The resource return on standards is neglible because only one still using standards are people who don't know that you can no longer build ultimate while standard is up anymore.

    You must have forgot that nerf small detail


    Leap only returns about 4.7 k . And since dk's skills cost the most that's exactly two whips and gone lmao. Sure it returns stam but that's fine with a single block in pvp lolol you have never played a real mag dk




    You are continually wrong and dodgy

    While I commend you for asking for DK buffs- I gotta correct you on the “not building ultimate while standard is up” part. I can 100% confirm that you can build ultimate while Standard is up. I do it, frequently, in PVP and PVE.

    On rare occasions, you can get a Leap off as soon as the Shifting Standard expires.

    I'm quite sure one of the morphs doesn't allow ult to build.

    If I'm wrong so be it, But I'm rather sure something bugged out or was changed by ZoS specifically not allowing ult regen

    It was ninja fixed as it was rolled to live. Its fine I tested.
    Put wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    DK's are underperforming in PVP?????


    Where's is this coming from? Are people playing different versions of the game? What is the basis for stating that DK's are underperforming?

    Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.

    Ok, they MIGHT be under performing for YOUR playstyle but they certainly arn't in the greater scheme. You guys need to keep in mind that if ZOS caves into your tears and gives DK's unwarranted buffs then all those guys + gals that are already running around solo 1 v Xing will only get even stronger.

    If the class doesn't suit your playstyle then don't play it, play one that does

    Yeah, please stop talking before I get cancer.

    If you haven't noticed by now, we are talking about the base class itself. ANY class can run cancer and be considered OP. Any class can endlessly sustain (it's called an Argonian)

    Skill line DPS for stam DK's is very lackluster, relying heavily on weapon lines for everything says enough about a class.

    You saying that we 'must play a certain style' literally proves how cornered and closed this class has become.

    I don't really care what builds you play, but I keep heavy armour/S&B away from all of my characters because I actually take pride in being able to play the game instead of holding block, so when we look at medium armour stam DK's, we see a completely dead class.

    Sets need nerfs, not classes. Classes should be the most powerful and important factor in a build, not things like seventh legion and (even worse) black rose/fury from previous patches.

    Ftr black rose was never bad. 180 equivalent of each regen and 150 wp/sp In 5 heavy. The regen got higher with more heavy but you would sacrifice undaunted and stuff from the other skill lines.

    Never understood the hate. 7th was so much stronger.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Put
    Put
    ✭✭✭
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.


    You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".

    Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.

    Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".


    I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.

    •Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters

    And is still the strongest single target CC in the game.
    •Battle Roar nerfed our resource return to our max stay which is the only one that matters, and FURTHER reduced it to only 46 points per ultimate point for each resource

    Is you max stamina less than 11 500? That's what using Standard returns to you. Using Leap returns 5750 stamina, I doubt your max stam pool is that low, considering that even a naked character with zero attributes to stamina has 7958 stamina.

    If your resource pool was below 26K before the changes, your sustain for that resource has been buffed. This was stated fairly clearly in the Morrowind patch notes:
    Earthen Heart
    Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
    •Helping hands was a flat nerf to return

    Umm, no. Not unless you're a stam DK.

    See, Helping Hands used to return 4% of your maximum stamina and now it returns a flat 990.

    Which means if you're at, say, 12k maximum stamina, it now returns 990, where as with the previous passive it would return only 480.

    Quite a "nerf".
    •you left out both standard nerf, and off balance and power lash nerf

    Fairly sure I detailed Off Balance in my first post, but I guess you didn't understand it.

    If you think Standard could use buffs, cool. I'm indifferent.


    I won't dignify the rude part of your post with a reply. If you think mDK is underperforming on Live (or PTS), you know where to find me - I gladly to prove it wrong :smile:

    Best CC??

    Have you never seen fear? lmao or rune cage which is the EXACT same as fossilize except has
    even BETTER range nearly 40 meters in PVp


    The resource return on standards is neglible because only one still using standards are people who don't know that you can no longer build ultimate while standard is up anymore.

    You must have forgot that nerf small detail


    Leap only returns about 4.7 k . And since dk's skills cost the most that's exactly two whips and gone lmao. Sure it returns stam but that's fine with a single block in pvp lolol you have never played a real mag dk




    You are continually wrong and dodgy

    While I commend you for asking for DK buffs- I gotta correct you on the “not building ultimate while standard is up” part. I can 100% confirm that you can build ultimate while Standard is up. I do it, frequently, in PVP and PVE.

    On rare occasions, you can get a Leap off as soon as the Shifting Standard expires.

    I'm quite sure one of the morphs doesn't allow ult to build.

    If I'm wrong so be it, But I'm rather sure something bugged out or was changed by ZoS specifically not allowing ult regen

    It was ninja fixed as it was rolled to live. Its fine I tested.
    Put wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    DK's are underperforming in PVP?????


    Where's is this coming from? Are people playing different versions of the game? What is the basis for stating that DK's are underperforming?

    Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.

    Ok, they MIGHT be under performing for YOUR playstyle but they certainly arn't in the greater scheme. You guys need to keep in mind that if ZOS caves into your tears and gives DK's unwarranted buffs then all those guys + gals that are already running around solo 1 v Xing will only get even stronger.

    If the class doesn't suit your playstyle then don't play it, play one that does

    Yeah, please stop talking before I get cancer.

    If you haven't noticed by now, we are talking about the base class itself. ANY class can run cancer and be considered OP. Any class can endlessly sustain (it's called an Argonian)

    Skill line DPS for stam DK's is very lackluster, relying heavily on weapon lines for everything says enough about a class.

    You saying that we 'must play a certain style' literally proves how cornered and closed this class has become.

    I don't really care what builds you play, but I keep heavy armour/S&B away from all of my characters because I actually take pride in being able to play the game instead of holding block, so when we look at medium armour stam DK's, we see a completely dead class.

    Sets need nerfs, not classes. Classes should be the most powerful and important factor in a build, not things like seventh legion and (even worse) black rose/fury from previous patches.

    Ftr black rose was never bad. 180 equivalent of each regen and 150 wp/sp In 5 heavy. The regen got higher with more heavy but you would sacrifice undaunted and stuff from the other skill lines.

    Never understood the hate. 7th was so much stronger.

    Black rose was ran with shuffle, that's why it was OP along with the fact that heavy should NEVER have more sustain than medium. Also wrath was the most stupid passive ever invented

    Flawless Conqueror Stam DK 551k - 370 CP
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.


    You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".

    Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.

    Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".


    I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.

    •Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters

    And is still the strongest single target CC in the game.
    •Battle Roar nerfed our resource return to our max stay which is the only one that matters, and FURTHER reduced it to only 46 points per ultimate point for each resource

    Is you max stamina less than 11 500? That's what using Standard returns to you. Using Leap returns 5750 stamina, I doubt your max stam pool is that low, considering that even a naked character with zero attributes to stamina has 7958 stamina.

    If your resource pool was below 26K before the changes, your sustain for that resource has been buffed. This was stated fairly clearly in the Morrowind patch notes:
    Earthen Heart
    Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
    •Helping hands was a flat nerf to return

    Umm, no. Not unless you're a stam DK.

    See, Helping Hands used to return 4% of your maximum stamina and now it returns a flat 990.

    Which means if you're at, say, 12k maximum stamina, it now returns 990, where as with the previous passive it would return only 480.

    Quite a "nerf".
    •you left out both standard nerf, and off balance and power lash nerf

    Fairly sure I detailed Off Balance in my first post, but I guess you didn't understand it.

    If you think Standard could use buffs, cool. I'm indifferent.


    I won't dignify the rude part of your post with a reply. If you think mDK is underperforming on Live (or PTS), you know where to find me - I gladly to prove it wrong :smile:

    Best CC??

    Have you never seen fear? lmao or rune cage which is the EXACT same as fossilize except has
    even BETTER range nearly 40 meters in PVp


    The resource return on standards is neglible because only one still using standards are people who don't know that you can no longer build ultimate while standard is up anymore.

    You must have forgot that nerf small detail


    Leap only returns about 4.7 k . And since dk's skills cost the most that's exactly two whips and gone lmao. Sure it returns stam but that's fine with a single block in pvp lolol you have never played a real mag dk




    You are continually wrong and dodgy

    While I commend you for asking for DK buffs- I gotta correct you on the “not building ultimate while standard is up” part. I can 100% confirm that you can build ultimate while Standard is up. I do it, frequently, in PVP and PVE.

    On rare occasions, you can get a Leap off as soon as the Shifting Standard expires.

    I'm quite sure one of the morphs doesn't allow ult to build.

    If I'm wrong so be it, But I'm rather sure something bugged out or was changed by ZoS specifically not allowing ult regen

    It was ninja fixed as it was rolled to live. Its fine I tested.
    Put wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    DK's are underperforming in PVP?????


    Where's is this coming from? Are people playing different versions of the game? What is the basis for stating that DK's are underperforming?

    Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.

    Ok, they MIGHT be under performing for YOUR playstyle but they certainly arn't in the greater scheme. You guys need to keep in mind that if ZOS caves into your tears and gives DK's unwarranted buffs then all those guys + gals that are already running around solo 1 v Xing will only get even stronger.

    If the class doesn't suit your playstyle then don't play it, play one that does

    Yeah, please stop talking before I get cancer.

    If you haven't noticed by now, we are talking about the base class itself. ANY class can run cancer and be considered OP. Any class can endlessly sustain (it's called an Argonian)

    Skill line DPS for stam DK's is very lackluster, relying heavily on weapon lines for everything says enough about a class.

    You saying that we 'must play a certain style' literally proves how cornered and closed this class has become.

    I don't really care what builds you play, but I keep heavy armour/S&B away from all of my characters because I actually take pride in being able to play the game instead of holding block, so when we look at medium armour stam DK's, we see a completely dead class.

    Sets need nerfs, not classes. Classes should be the most powerful and important factor in a build, not things like seventh legion and (even worse) black rose/fury from previous patches.

    Ftr black rose was never bad. 180 equivalent of each regen and 150 wp/sp In 5 heavy. The regen got higher with more heavy but you would sacrifice undaunted and stuff from the other skill lines.

    Never understood the hate. 7th was so much stronger.

    Ah that would explain my confusion there thank you.

    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.


    You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".

    Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.

    Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".


    I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.

    •Fossilize was nerfed in range to 9 meters

    And is still the strongest single target CC in the game.
    •Battle Roar nerfed our resource return to our max stay which is the only one that matters, and FURTHER reduced it to only 46 points per ultimate point for each resource

    Is you max stamina less than 11 500? That's what using Standard returns to you. Using Leap returns 5750 stamina, I doubt your max stam pool is that low, considering that even a naked character with zero attributes to stamina has 7958 stamina.

    If your resource pool was below 26K before the changes, your sustain for that resource has been buffed. This was stated fairly clearly in the Morrowind patch notes:
    Earthen Heart
    Battle Roar: This passive ability now restores an equal amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you use an Ultimate ability, and the amounts are now based on your character level instead of your Max Resource(s).
    Developer Comments:
    This will be a buff for each particular resource if your maximum is below 26,000, and a reduction if it is above. This will generally result in a buff to overall resources restored, but a reduction to the specific resource you are stacking.
    •Helping hands was a flat nerf to return

    Umm, no. Not unless you're a stam DK.

    See, Helping Hands used to return 4% of your maximum stamina and now it returns a flat 990.

    Which means if you're at, say, 12k maximum stamina, it now returns 990, where as with the previous passive it would return only 480.

    Quite a "nerf".
    •you left out both standard nerf, and off balance and power lash nerf

    Fairly sure I detailed Off Balance in my first post, but I guess you didn't understand it.

    If you think Standard could use buffs, cool. I'm indifferent.


    I won't dignify the rude part of your post with a reply. If you think mDK is underperforming on Live (or PTS), you know where to find me - I gladly to prove it wrong :smile:

    Best CC??

    Have you never seen fear? lmao or rune cage which is the EXACT same as fossilize except has
    even BETTER range nearly 40 meters in PVp


    The resource return on standards is neglible because only one still using standards are people who don't know that you can no longer build ultimate while standard is up anymore.

    You must have forgot that nerf small detail


    Leap only returns about 4.7 k . And since dk's skills cost the most that's exactly two whips and gone lmao. Sure it returns stam but that's fine with a single block in pvp lolol you have never played a real mag dk




    You are continually wrong and dodgy

    While I commend you for asking for DK buffs- I gotta correct you on the “not building ultimate while standard is up” part. I can 100% confirm that you can build ultimate while Standard is up. I do it, frequently, in PVP and PVE.

    On rare occasions, you can get a Leap off as soon as the Shifting Standard expires.

    I was correct and wrong at the same time lol


    it appears it was ninja fixed on the ult regen with standard up
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    And again thank you to those with CONSTRUCTIVE comments
  • Durham
    Durham
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    Any chance of having a "realistic discussion" evaporated after you wrote "nerfs" on your post.


    You must have an extremely narrow view or a bad understanding of mathematics to consider cooldown reduction from 7(Fossilize CD)-5s(Off Balance CD) to 3 seconds a "nerf", or the skill no longer consuming Off Balance when you use Power Lash a "nerf".

    Battle Roar? Yeah, what a "nerf"... buffed your secondary resource generation and most likely the health you got from casting an ultimate. Any resource pool less than 26K saw an increase of returned resources after that change.

    Same with Helping Hands, any mDK with below 25K stam pool (i.e. all of them) now has a better stamina sustain thanks to that "nerf".


    I'd propose you start using the word "changes", because "nerf" doesn't describe most of the points you raise.

    Was a nerf to stam DK...
    PVP DEADWAIT
    PVE Eternal Destiny
  • Craigysmith89
    What if... Coagulating Blood/Green dragon blood kept its original heal but restored X amount magicka/stam over X amount seconds (similar to Betty Netch)

    Engulfing Flames has increased range

    Enemy’s effected by searing strike/venomous clawsare applied with minor magicka/stam steak similar to elemental drain

    If you don’t agree you don’t agree but little adjustments can go a long way.
  • Ragnaroek93
    Ragnaroek93
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    I think the Embers nerf is a bit harsh. I don't like undodgeable stuff (and I'm very glad that ZOS makes many things dodgeable again) but the heal from Dks is tied to Embers and it's not good if parts of your defense can get denied so easily.
  • Subversus
    Subversus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the Embers nerf is a bit harsh. I don't like undodgeable stuff (and I'm very glad that ZOS makes many things dodgeable again) but the heal from Dks is tied to Embers and it's not good if parts of your defense can get denied so easily.

    It's a cheap skill anyway, I'm sure they'll manage.
    @Subversuss PC EU

    Malevolent - AD Magblade
    Spank me Daddy - AD Magsorc
    Overperforming - DC Magblade
    Cherry Wine - EP Magsorc
    Decent Player - AD StamDK
    Most Triggered - EP MagDK
    Psychological Trauma - AD Stamden
    Subversus - AD Heavy armor Stamblade
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Subversus wrote: »
    I think the Embers nerf is a bit harsh. I don't like undodgeable stuff (and I'm very glad that ZOS makes many things dodgeable again) but the heal from Dks is tied to Embers and it's not good if parts of your defense can get denied so easily.

    It's a cheap skill anyway, I'm sure they'll manage.

    This


    While it's true embers is our real healing skill, It doesn't unduly bother me. And most of the time no one is trying that hard to just dodge embers
  • Emma_Overload
    Emma_Overload
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    SirDopey wrote: »
    DK's are underperforming in PVP?????


    Where's is this coming from? Are people playing different versions of the game? What is the basis for stating that DK's are underperforming?

    Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.

    Ok, they MIGHT be under performing for YOUR playstyle but they certainly arn't in the greater scheme. You guys need to keep in mind that if ZOS caves into your tears and gives DK's unwarranted buffs then all those guys + gals that are already running around solo 1 v Xing will only get even stronger.

    If the class doesn't suit your playstyle then don't play it, play one that does

    QUOTED FOR TRUTH!

    On what planet are Magicka DKs underperforming in PvP? Cause it sure ain't Nirn. 1v1 they are practically unkillable by Sorcs, at the very least they can stretch out the fight for a long time. Good DKs don't let that happen, though. They just CC you and clobber you with a Leap.
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • Feanor
    Feanor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think you can’t simply revert the Battle Roar passive since there are now so many cheap ultimates in the game, most notably Leap. IIRC Battle Roar gave 78 resource (might be off though, search didn’t yield a conclusive result) of the highest stat before the change - you’d look at close to 10k return on Leap.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • Trashs1
    Trashs1
    ✭✭✭
    ... and u dont talk to all the cost reduction buffs a few patches ago???

    mag dk is fine in pvp.. look at all that nervs, how overperforming where this class a year ago??

    the only one who needs a buff is stamdk in pvp

    btw dont care about rota smashing pve
    Dolche des Königs (DDK); EuPC, DC, Sotha Sil,
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Quantum_V wrote: »
    Realistically I understand these nerfs - and yes, making your skills dodgeable are nerfs, specially when considering that getting a double whip in PTS is extremelly rare even with bash animation cancels - it is a way to balance the game. Make embers dodgeable and blockable? Sounds perfect to me, I see no issue what-so-ever in that.

    The true problem arrises when we put mDK in perspective. mDK passives haven't been updated in ages, they barely have room in the actual meta, they've lost their identity (and by identity I mean: the reason why people picked this class over others in the first place) which is the capability to hold their ground with the nerf to heavy armor, battleroar and blocking. In sum, the problem is nerfing a class that literally can't take any more nerfs, we NEED changes, we NEED to be updated to the current state of the game.

    Yes, ZoS, I know this isn't a balancing patch. But the changes you made to mDK, even if they're not focused on what you guys call 'balance' they do affect the overall state of mDKs. I truly believe favorable winds will blow in the future, on the next balancing patch. It's impossible for ZoS not to have realized how outdated mDKS (and I'll dare say stamDKs too) are. But how long will that take? 6 months? Are we supposed to be the underdogs of solo open world pvp and pve for this long? At this point we're not receiving changes, we're receiving plain out nerfs.

    Just wanted to touch this as well


    You helped raise points that I was having trouble articulating as well. Much appreciated friend
  • lazerlaz
    lazerlaz
    ✭✭✭
    You're delusional to think mDK underperforms in PVP.

    My suggestion, UP YOUR FREAKING SKILL!

    Everyone keeps crying about nerfs or asks for nerfs. Why don't you look in the mirror instead. That's where the problem is.
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    lazerlaz wrote: »
    You're delusional to think mDK underperforms in PVP.

    My suggestion, UP YOUR FREAKING SKILL!

    Everyone keeps crying about nerfs or asks for nerfs. Why don't you look in the mirror instead. That's where the problem is.

    OR you could, you know, actually provide a rational response to refute or counter claim that has supporting information to back up your...opinion.. I suppose I'll call it.

    I gave clear concise information with my supporting information. Maybe you shouldn't post if you have nothing to contribute
    Edited by Nelson_Rebel on January 30, 2018 1:59PM
  • Hutch679
    Hutch679
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    These nerfs brings mag dk more in line for pvp to where it should be. Welcomed changes.
    Edited by Hutch679 on January 30, 2018 2:13PM
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    lazerlaz wrote: »
    You're delusional to think mDK underperforms in PVP.

    My suggestion, UP YOUR FREAKING SKILL!

    Everyone keeps crying about nerfs or asks for nerfs. Why don't you look in the mirror instead. That's where the problem is.

    OR you could, you know, actually provide a rational response to refute or counter claim that has supporting information to back up your...opinion.. I suppose I'll call it.

    I gave clear concise information with my supporting information. Maybe you shouldn't post if you have nothing to contribute

    Its just your opinion. In every single patch you are repeating the same things, mDK is dead, mDK is dead, mDK is dead. Ok we get it. According to you mDK is dead and useless.
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