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Ok let's have a realistic discussion about MagDK nerfs

  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Hutch679 wrote: »
    These nerfs brings mag dk more in line for pvp to where it should be. Welcomed changes.

    I would love to see your rankings and if they are for ow pvp.

    If you are basing it of duels, there is the problem.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Hutch679
    Hutch679
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    "Ok let's have a realistic discussion about MagDK nerfs "

    Erupts into a flaming.

    When he's trying to go on a crusade and insult yes I will respond in kind


    I refuse to let anyone talk down to me and I never will

    As soon as you said this I got this funny picture of you ikn my head as an angry short guy carrying around a step ladder lol idk why...

    "No one will talk down to me!" Just playing. Nerf mag dks.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Hutch679 wrote: »
    These nerfs brings mag dk more in line for pvp to where it should be. Welcomed changes.

    I would love to see your rankings and if they are for ow pvp.

    If you are basing it of duels, there is the problem.

    Let's make this thread constructive again:

    What's the problem with mDK in open world in your opinion, and what type of mDK build are you playing?

    What kind of changes would make your mDK perform better in open world and how would you implement them without making different mDK (or stam DK) builds overpowered against certain builds?


    I personally don't see any problems with mDK open world performance on my destro/resto mDK, there's no "counter builds" that can ruin your PvP experience entirely as is the case for dodge roll builds on Live currently, which is why I think mDK is significantly better for open world than, say, a rollerblade.


    But I haven't played & experienced open world with the S&B type, less mobile "tank DK", so maybe you and others have some important points I might've missed about those builds.
    Edited by DDuke on January 30, 2018 2:36PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Hutch679
    Hutch679
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Hutch679 wrote: »
    These nerfs brings mag dk more in line for pvp to where it should be. Welcomed changes.

    I would love to see your rankings and if they are for ow pvp.

    If you are basing it of duels, there is the problem.

    Rank 20 on 5 different characters. 2 got all 20 ranks from BGs. Last I checked, you don't get ranks from duels and if you wanna base it off duels then Mag DKs and Templars are severely over performing.
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Hutch679 wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Hutch679 wrote: »
    These nerfs brings mag dk more in line for pvp to where it should be. Welcomed changes.

    I would love to see your rankings and if they are for ow pvp.

    If you are basing it of duels, there is the problem.

    Rank 20 on 5 different characters. 2 got all 20 ranks from BGs. Last I checked, you don't get ranks from duels and if you wanna base it off duels then Mag DKs and Templars are severely over performing.

    Ranking classes not alliance war ranking, misunderstanding. How would you rank the classes for OW PvP. Solo and grouped.
    Edited by ak_pvp on January 30, 2018 3:09PM
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Trashs1
    Trashs1
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Hutch679 wrote: »
    These nerfs brings mag dk more in line for pvp to where it should be. Welcomed changes.

    I would love to see your rankings and if they are for ow pvp.

    If you are basing it of duels, there is the problem.

    Let's make this thread constructive again:

    What's the problem with mDK in open world in your opinion, and what type of mDK build are you playing?

    What kind of changes would make your mDK perform better in open world and how would you implement them without making different mDK (or stam DK) builds overpowered against certain builds?


    I personally don't see any problems with mDK open world performance on my destro/resto mDK, there's no "counter builds" that can ruin your PvP experience entirely as is the case for dodge roll builds on Live currently, which is why I think mDK is significantly better for open world than, say, a rollerblade.


    But I haven't played & experienced open world with the S&B type, less mobile "tank DK", so maybe you and others have some important points I might've missed on those builds.

    I play dw/s&b, 5 innate, 5 bloodthorn, 2 skoria. 5/1/1 light.

    My main problems are: Lack of class sustain and defense. Two important things in OW.

    Sustain: Battle roar has been nerfed a lot. Gilliam tested that it is the lowest of the passive sustain methods of any class. This leads to DKs often being forced into 2 sustain sets, see sheys build, and almost unplayable OW with one, wheras other classes can run 2x damage. I.e. truth and 7th. And sustain fine. You mentioned ele drain, but does that mean we should nerf everyone elses sustain down to MDK level and tell them to run ele?

    Fix: Battle roar restored to main stat focused.

    Lack of defense, (Wings being absolutely tragic to use. Doesn't absorb a lot as is and literally goes down in 1s against 2 ranged casters. For a 3.5k cost its pretty pathetic) This means that block is often used, and that has been continuously nerfed. And even a shield build has less than other classes. Temp can use shields+purge, NB shields+cloak. Sorc better shields+streak. DK as general is countered quite hard against ranged, low mobility, and chains aside, little to deal with it.

    Fix: Wings should be 3 projectiles per target for 4s. Less uptime in 1v1. Usable in 1vX. Also have it reflect/deflect bird/pulse. And not take status effects from projeciles like flare. Its only fair.

    DK doesn't even have comparable mobility, stamsorc, one of my old characters has little class defense, but still has mobility for use. You can't escape/reposition well with chains, so many run mist, which vegetises you and is a heavy mag loss. I don't want 2x expedition, nor streak.

    FIX: Reflective morph of wings to remove snares for 4s. Less tanky than mist, and less length than FM, but a unique class buff for the "slow but steady." Stam can use rally again too, and would hold some footing again.

    Bonus round: No execute. Not even defacto one anymore. Dots used to be the best, then power whip hit hard and was undodgable, meaning PvE parse wont suffer, and it could hit hard on the target no matter where they went like wrath/beam. Now nothing.

    Pros about the class:

    Damage is fine risk/reward wise, speccing into a damage build gets you good damage, but tanks lose out. Unlike a warden for example. The passives suck, being from old times, where soft caps were a thing, but DK has decently high base damage to counteract that. [StamDK needs more use passive wise. WOR is literally useless unless running a lackluster ult.]

    High damage ult

    Good lockdown

    Fun, setup for a high damage whip.

    Aesthetics.

    roffl u dont have any defense in a dmg only and sustain set??? you know i need to run wizards riposte+pirate skeleton to survive with my mageplar in light armour...

    maybe try other sets?? lol better call for a buff :)
    Edited by Trashs1 on January 30, 2018 3:15PM
    Dolche des Königs (DDK); EuPC, DC, Sotha Sil,
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    lazerlaz wrote: »
    You're delusional to think mDK underperforms in PVP.

    My suggestion, UP YOUR FREAKING SKILL!

    Everyone keeps crying about nerfs or asks for nerfs. Why don't you look in the mirror instead. That's where the problem is.

    OR you could, you know, actually provide a rational response to refute or counter claim that has supporting information to back up your...opinion.. I suppose I'll call it.

    I gave clear concise information with my supporting information. Maybe you shouldn't post if you have nothing to contribute

    Its just your opinion. In every single patch you are repeating the same things, mDK is dead, mDK is dead, mDK is dead. Ok we get it. According to you mDK is dead and useless.

    I gave supporting information to back my claims


    THE only thing you and your like have done is bash and flame because you have no responses to my claims that I supported with legitimate information.

    Is the class unplayable? No, a controller will still fire off whatever commands that you hit in the damn game. Does that mean the class is okay? Absolutley not, which is the entire reason I'm even on here having this conversation. The class is stuck back in a patch ages ago and hasn't been updated since. Just nerf after nerf after nerf. Enough nerfs have been repeated to the same items that the class is clearly NOT performing well for anything besides tanking

    Your bias clouds factual information


    When the PTS dropped every single reasonable DK called power lash spam broken and in need of a change. You called power lash spam and a 2 piece set that can deal 15k-30k undodgeable dmg awesome changes. But i am biased?

    I do not consider the class fine. But in every single patch you are whining mDK is dead and creating drama how its unplayable useless, nerfed to [snip], only good for crafting etc. Every single class is getting nerfed patch after patch. Get over it.

    Yes the FIRST pts version of power lash was broken, and I was in support of NOT letting it change in that direction. But then what happened?

    We got a cooldown and off balance nerf cooldown on top of it, then they changed the functionality of our legitimate ONLY damage ability in our entire skill line that doesn't hit for less than 2k.

    The zaan set was overpowered, I agree but it also got nerfed, and in it's current state and in the state of mag dk currently it will be used 100% more effectively by magplar and even magblades because they have better skills and gap closers to maintain the sets damage usefulness along with EXECUTES to capitalize on the sets power even more. Dk's will not, and especially not after this current patch. If they can even manage to sustain well enough to get the proc to hit when they need it, let alone be able to stay in range long enough to matter.


    Yes every class got hit hard with morrowind but only Dk's have been specifically targeted the last 4 patches in a row that ALL directly further punished our sustain SPECIFICALLY after morrowind, the other classes recieved buffs to their passives in exchange and had GOOD reworks on their skills. The dk ALREADY was the worst sustain class before morrowind, the following patch's since have made it IMPOSSIBLE to compete in any pve environment and made pvp a joke for us

    [Edited for quotes]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on January 30, 2018 4:07PM
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Hutch679 wrote: »
    These nerfs brings mag dk more in line for pvp to where it should be. Welcomed changes.

    I would love to see your rankings and if they are for ow pvp.

    If you are basing it of duels, there is the problem.

    Let's make this thread constructive again:

    What's the problem with mDK in open world in your opinion, and what type of mDK build are you playing?

    What kind of changes would make your mDK perform better in open world and how would you implement them without making different mDK (or stam DK) builds overpowered against certain builds?


    I personally don't see any problems with mDK open world performance on my destro/resto mDK, there's no "counter builds" that can ruin your PvP experience entirely as is the case for dodge roll builds on Live currently, which is why I think mDK is significantly better for open world than, say, a rollerblade.


    But I haven't played & experienced open world with the S&B type, less mobile "tank DK", so maybe you and others have some important points I might've missed on those builds.

    I play dw/s&b, 5 innate, 5 bloodthorn, 2 skoria. 5/1/1 light.

    My main problems are: Lack of class sustain and defense. Two important things in OW.

    Sustain: Battle roar has been nerfed a lot. Gilliam tested that it is the lowest of the passive sustain methods of any class. This leads to DKs often being forced into 2 sustain sets, see sheys build, and almost unplayable OW with one, wheras other classes can run 2x damage. I.e. truth and 7th. And sustain fine. You mentioned ele drain, but does that mean we should nerf everyone elses sustain down to MDK level and tell them to run ele?

    Fix: Battle roar restored to main stat focused.

    Ok, this would really screw destro/resto though as you're already barely getting enough stamina to CC break & block once in a while. Unless you mean that they'd increase the restoration of main stat & keep the rest same as they are now (instead of how they were pre-Morrowind when everyone ran S&B on mDK), in which case it'd be really op in PvP.

    Here's what I think could work instead:
    1. Removal of AoE cap on Draw Essence secondary effect. This would give tank DKs a really strong sustain ability to use when they're tanking 6+ players. 10+ players and the skill would be free to use and could even return magicka per cast. Plays straight into the strengths of S&B (tanking people).
    2. Perhaps Minor Magickasteal (same buff which largely allows destro/resto builds to sustain in PvP) on everyone in Talons?
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Lack of defense, (Wings being absolutely tragic to use. Doesn't absorb a lot as is and literally goes down in 1s against 2 ranged casters. For a 3.5k cost its pretty pathetic) This means that block is often used, and that has been continuously nerfed. And even a shield build has less than other classes. Temp can use shields+purge, NB shields+cloak. Sorc better shields+streak. DK as general is countered quite hard against ranged, low mobility, and chains aside, little to deal with it.

    Fix: Wings should be 3 projectiles per target for 4s. Less uptime in 1v1. Usable in 1vX. Also have it reflect/deflect bird/pulse. And not take status effects from projeciles like flare. Its only fair.

    Agreed, this would be a good change.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DK doesn't even have comparable mobility, stamsorc, one of my old characters has little class defense, but still has mobility for use. You can't escape/reposition well with chains, so many run mist, which vegetises you and is a heavy mag loss. I don't want 2x expedition, nor streak.

    FIX: Reflective morph of wings to remove snares for 4s. Less tanky than mist, and less length than FM, but a unique class buff for the "slow but steady." Stam can use rally again too, and would hold some footing again.

    Again another buff that could be beneficial to overall balance, though I'd rather see ZOS make the "stand your ground" aspects of mDK stronger so that they don't need to escape as often and could utilize the tanking better.

    Something like dmg increase (should deal as much DPS as LL or WoE), bigger radius on Ash Cloud (5->10m) & Major Evasion while in it could work & again plays into the S&B tank DK strengths and doesn't really benefit other types of DKs.

    Could also make ranged DKs an option by giving them strong area denial.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Bonus round: No execute. Not even defacto one anymore. Dots used to be the best, then power whip hit hard and was undodgable, meaning PvE parse wont suffer, and it could hit hard on the target no matter where they went like wrath/beam. Now nothing.

    Wardens also lack one (unless you count bear, which no one runs).

    Perhaps they could bring back the "deal extra damage with heavy attacks to targets below 50%" to Igneous Weapons, that morph is lackluster these days.
    Edited by DDuke on January 30, 2018 3:27PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    Trashs1 wrote: »

    roffl u dont have any defense in a dmg only and sustain set??? you know i need to run wizards riposte+pirate skeleton to survive with my mageplar in light armour...

    maybe try other sets?? lol better call for a buff :)

    Magplar has its own issues. But at least it has purge and very high heals for survivability. DK has no class defenses worth running. Hence running block so often.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Trashs1
    Trashs1
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    well to come back on a constructive level from my side.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Trashs1 wrote: »

    roffl u dont have any defense in a dmg only and sustain set??? you know i need to run wizards riposte+pirate skeleton to survive with my mageplar in light armour...

    maybe try other sets?? lol better call for a buff :)

    Magplar has its own issues. But at least it has purge and very high heals for survivability. DK has no class defenses worth running. Hence running block so often.

    this is kinda true

    also i could suport a kind of minor magic steal in mdks skills but dont give the most blocking class mayor eva... thats too much
    Dolche des Königs (DDK); EuPC, DC, Sotha Sil,
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
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    ✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Hutch679 wrote: »
    These nerfs brings mag dk more in line for pvp to where it should be. Welcomed changes.

    I would love to see your rankings and if they are for ow pvp.

    If you are basing it of duels, there is the problem.

    Let's make this thread constructive again:

    What's the problem with mDK in open world in your opinion, and what type of mDK build are you playing?

    What kind of changes would make your mDK perform better in open world and how would you implement them without making different mDK (or stam DK) builds overpowered against certain builds?


    I personally don't see any problems with mDK open world performance on my destro/resto mDK, there's no "counter builds" that can ruin your PvP experience entirely as is the case for dodge roll builds on Live currently, which is why I think mDK is significantly better for open world than, say, a rollerblade.


    But I haven't played & experienced open world with the S&B type, less mobile "tank DK", so maybe you and others have some important points I might've missed on those builds.

    I play dw/s&b, 5 innate, 5 bloodthorn, 2 skoria. 5/1/1 light.

    My main problems are: Lack of class sustain and defense. Two important things in OW.

    Sustain: Battle roar has been nerfed a lot. Gilliam tested that it is the lowest of the passive sustain methods of any class. This leads to DKs often being forced into 2 sustain sets, see sheys build, and almost unplayable OW with one, wheras other classes can run 2x damage. I.e. truth and 7th. And sustain fine. You mentioned ele drain, but does that mean we should nerf everyone elses sustain down to MDK level and tell them to run ele?

    Fix: Battle roar restored to main stat focused.

    Ok, this would really screw destro/resto though as you're already barely getting enough stamina to CC break & block once in a while. Unless you mean that they'd increase the restoration of main stat & keep the rest same as they are now (instead of how they were pre-Morrowind when everyone ran S&B on mDK), in which case it'd be really op in PvP.

    Here's what I think could work instead:
    1. Removal of AoE cap on Draw Essence secondary effect. This would give tank DKs a really strong sustain ability to use when they're tanking 6+ players. 10+ players and the skill would be free to use and could even return magicka per cast. Plays straight into the strengths of S&B (tanking people).
    2. Perhaps Minor Magickasteal (same buff which largely allows destro/resto builds to sustain in PvP) on everyone in Talons?
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Lack of defense, (Wings being absolutely tragic to use. Doesn't absorb a lot as is and literally goes down in 1s against 2 ranged casters. For a 3.5k cost its pretty pathetic) This means that block is often used, and that has been continuously nerfed. And even a shield build has less than other classes. Temp can use shields+purge, NB shields+cloak. Sorc better shields+streak. DK as general is countered quite hard against ranged, low mobility, and chains aside, little to deal with it.

    Fix: Wings should be 3 projectiles per target for 4s. Less uptime in 1v1. Usable in 1vX. Also have it reflect/deflect bird/pulse. And not take status effects from projeciles like flare. Its only fair.

    Agreed, this would be a good change.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    DK doesn't even have comparable mobility, stamsorc, one of my old characters has little class defense, but still has mobility for use. You can't escape/reposition well with chains, so many run mist, which vegetises you and is a heavy mag loss. I don't want 2x expedition, nor streak.

    FIX: Reflective morph of wings to remove snares for 4s. Less tanky than mist, and less length than FM, but a unique class buff for the "slow but steady." Stam can use rally again too, and would hold some footing again.

    Again another buff that could be beneficial to overall balance, though I'd rather see ZOS make the "stand your ground" aspects of mDK stronger so that they don't need to escape as often and could utilize the tanking better.

    Something like dmg increase (should deal as much DPS as LL or WoE), bigger radius on Ash Cloud (5->10m) & Major Evasion while in it could work & again plays into the S&B tank DK strengths and doesn't really benefit other types of DKs.

    Could also make ranged DKs an option by giving them strong area denial.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Bonus round: No execute. Not even defacto one anymore. Dots used to be the best, then power whip hit hard and was undodgable, meaning PvE parse wont suffer, and it could hit hard on the target no matter where they went like wrath/beam. Now nothing.

    Wardens also lack one. Perhaps they could bring back the "deal extra damage with heavy attacks to targets below 50%" to Igneous Weapons, that morph is lackluster these days.

    The talons/essence idea seems good since it'd work very well against outnumbered targets, and allow the stand your gorund playstyle. But for all the talks of DK being a tank class. ZOS doesn't want tanks. If they did, they wouldn't nerf block so much.

    Though that. PvE MDK still has issues with sustain, which would then have to be fixed another way, magsteal/essence not bringing anything extra to PvE. Then if they get another sustain passive that fits best in PvE you'd get talks of DK being overpowered with a PvE sustain passive, essence, magsteal on talons and roar.

    Ashcloud changes seem useful as a whole, but like the removed AoE inferno. I doubt they would backtrack. I wouldn't be surprised though if they do actually buff the damage, since as you said it deals less damage and is one of the safest changes that wouldn't break anything for PvP.

    I feel like this entire comment sort of shows more why they need to separately balance the game.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • lucky_Sage
    lucky_Sage
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Fossilize was buffed overall lol.

    yeah but it was basically the magdk gap closer in AvA
    DC PC NA
    magdk- main
    magden alt

    AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
    magdk
    magblade
    stamplar
    magden
    magsorc

  • lucky_Sage
    lucky_Sage
    ✭✭✭✭
    Stamden wrote: »
    •Make flames of oblivion an actual AoE for 5 meters. Similar to stam sorcs hurricane.

    We've been asking for this ever since they took it away years ago. They just don't care :/

    they said no on it being a aoe again
    DC PC NA
    magdk- main
    magden alt

    AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
    magdk
    magblade
    stamplar
    magden
    magsorc

  • Moglijuana
    Moglijuana
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Quantum_V wrote: »
    SirDopey wrote: »
    DK's are underperforming in PVP?????
    Of all the options for endless sustain and mitigation DK's are still number 1.

    This is more trolly than my troll post.

    Yea someone thinks MAGDK sustain is endless. L. O. L. I run Lich, Ele Drain, and two recovery glyphs and if I ever run out of Pots I just don't even Open World because the sustain is that bad. Especially solo.
    lazerlaz wrote: »
    You're delusional to think mDK underperforms in PVP.

    My suggestion, UP YOUR FREAKING SKILL!

    Everyone keeps crying about nerfs or asks for nerfs. Why don't you look in the mirror instead. That's where the problem is.

    Get off your Vamp NB. What do you think fire does to them?
    Edited by Moglijuana on January 30, 2018 4:31PM
    Ps4 - PSN:jdmaya
    Dårth Måul (AD- Dunmer Mag DK) Legate
    Latest Vid:https://youtu.be/WZp_IdyrL6Q
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    ✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    lazerlaz wrote: »
    You're delusional to think mDK underperforms in PVP.

    My suggestion, UP YOUR FREAKING SKILL!

    Everyone keeps crying about nerfs or asks for nerfs. Why don't you look in the mirror instead. That's where the problem is.

    OR you could, you know, actually provide a rational response to refute or counter claim that has supporting information to back up your...opinion.. I suppose I'll call it.

    I gave clear concise information with my supporting information. Maybe you shouldn't post if you have nothing to contribute

    Its just your opinion. In every single patch you are repeating the same things, mDK is dead, mDK is dead, mDK is dead. Ok we get it. According to you mDK is dead and useless.

    I gave supporting information to back my claims


    THE only thing you and your like have done is bash and flame because you have no responses to my claims that I supported with legitimate information.

    Is the class unplayable? No, a controller will still fire off whatever commands that you hit in the damn game. Does that mean the class is okay? Absolutley not, which is the entire reason I'm even on here having this conversation. The class is stuck back in a patch ages ago and hasn't been updated since. Just nerf after nerf after nerf. Enough nerfs have been repeated to the same items that the class is clearly NOT performing well for anything besides tanking

    Your bias clouds factual information


    When the PTS dropped every single reasonable DK called power lash spam broken and in need of a change. You called power lash spam and a 2 piece set that can deal 15k-30k undodgeable dmg awesome changes. But i am biased?

    I do not consider the class fine. But in every single patch you are whining mDK is dead and creating drama how its unplayable useless, nerfed to [snip], only good for crafting etc. Every single class is getting nerfed patch after patch. Get over it.

    Yes the FIRST pts version of power lash was broken, and I was in support of NOT letting it change in that direction. But then what happened?

    We got a cooldown and off balance nerf cooldown on top of it, then they changed the functionality of our legitimate ONLY damage ability in our entire skill line that doesn't hit for less than 2k.

    The zaan set was overpowered, I agree but it also got nerfed, and in it's current state and in the state of mag dk currently it will be used 100% more effectively by magplar and even magblades because they have better skills and gap closers to maintain the sets damage usefulness along with EXECUTES to capitalize on the sets power even more. Dk's will not, and especially not after this current patch. If they can even manage to sustain well enough to get the proc to hit when they need it, let alone be able to stay in range long enough to matter.


    Yes every class got hit hard with morrowind but only Dk's have been specifically targeted the last 4 patches in a row that ALL directly further punished our sustain SPECIFICALLY after morrowind, the other classes recieved buffs to their passives in exchange and had GOOD reworks on their skills. The dk ALREADY was the worst sustain class before morrowind, the following patch's since have made it IMPOSSIBLE to compete in any pve environment and made pvp a joke for us

    I am talking about PVP. Not PVE.

    With the changes now you can get more power lashes than before unless you were using that niche blockade build. You are trying to spin facts and present the 3 second cooldown as a major nerf as if you were spamming power lashes before. The only nerf the ability got was making it dodgeable and thats not even a nerf. Thats a fix cause being undodgeable was a bug. But it also got buffed cause now it also got a cc. Power lash got a lot of changes but of course because the ability wasnt flat out buffed to the sky, every biased person proceeded to present the ability as trash.

    As far as Zaan is concerned im not talking about which class can benefit the most. Im talking about you calling it awesome cause ur DK can use it even tho now u admit is OP.

    In the latest PTS update multiple abilities became dodgeable, blockable etc so they all function the same way. And yet the DK drama shoot up again because once again their class is dead now that embers is dodgeable.

    All classes are getting nerfed all over the place. Its not a contest. Which one is getting nerfed the most is again a biased opinion. You would present the atro changes as a buff even tho in no CP it actually got a huge nerf. But you would also present the power lash cd as a nerf even tho you can now arguably get more power lashes than before. You are talking about buffs and ability reworks on other classes even tho you present similar changes to ur class as huge nerfs that destroy the class. Thats the definition of being biased.

    So chill. ZOS doesnt hate you. They are just incapable of balancing their game cause they refuse to rework the CP system.

    [Edited for quote]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on January 31, 2018 1:53PM
  • BroanBeast1215
    BroanBeast1215
    ✭✭✭
    "underperforming"


    LOL

    cant take you seriously m7+1
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    lazerlaz wrote: »
    You're delusional to think mDK underperforms in PVP.

    My suggestion, UP YOUR FREAKING SKILL!

    Everyone keeps crying about nerfs or asks for nerfs. Why don't you look in the mirror instead. That's where the problem is.

    OR you could, you know, actually provide a rational response to refute or counter claim that has supporting information to back up your...opinion.. I suppose I'll call it.

    I gave clear concise information with my supporting information. Maybe you shouldn't post if you have nothing to contribute

    Its just your opinion. In every single patch you are repeating the same things, mDK is dead, mDK is dead, mDK is dead. Ok we get it. According to you mDK is dead and useless.

    I gave supporting information to back my claims


    THE only thing you and your like have done is bash and flame because you have no responses to my claims that I supported with legitimate information.

    Is the class unplayable? No, a controller will still fire off whatever commands that you hit in the damn game. Does that mean the class is okay? Absolutley not, which is the entire reason I'm even on here having this conversation. The class is stuck back in a patch ages ago and hasn't been updated since. Just nerf after nerf after nerf. Enough nerfs have been repeated to the same items that the class is clearly NOT performing well for anything besides tanking

    Your bias clouds factual information


    When the PTS dropped every single reasonable DK called power lash spam broken and in need of a change. You called power lash spam and a 2 piece set that can deal 15k-30k undodgeable dmg awesome changes. But i am biased?

    I do not consider the class fine. But in every single patch you are whining mDK is dead and creating drama how its unplayable useless, nerfed to [snip], only good for crafting etc. Every single class is getting nerfed patch after patch. Get over it.

    Yes the FIRST pts version of power lash was broken, and I was in support of NOT letting it change in that direction. But then what happened?

    We got a cooldown and off balance nerf cooldown on top of it, then they changed the functionality of our legitimate ONLY damage ability in our entire skill line that doesn't hit for less than 2k.

    The zaan set was overpowered, I agree but it also got nerfed, and in it's current state and in the state of mag dk currently it will be used 100% more effectively by magplar and even magblades because they have better skills and gap closers to maintain the sets damage usefulness along with EXECUTES to capitalize on the sets power even more. Dk's will not, and especially not after this current patch. If they can even manage to sustain well enough to get the proc to hit when they need it, let alone be able to stay in range long enough to matter.


    Yes every class got hit hard with morrowind but only Dk's have been specifically targeted the last 4 patches in a row that ALL directly further punished our sustain SPECIFICALLY after morrowind, the other classes recieved buffs to their passives in exchange and had GOOD reworks on their skills. The dk ALREADY was the worst sustain class before morrowind, the following patch's since have made it IMPOSSIBLE to compete in any pve environment and made pvp a joke for us

    I am talking about PVP. Not PVE.

    With the changes now you can get more power lashes than before unless you were using that niche blockade build. You are trying to spin facts and present the 3 second cooldown as a major nerf as if you were spamming power lashes before. The only nerf the ability got was making it dodgeable and thats not even a nerf. Thats a fix cause being undodgeable was a bug. But it also got buffed cause now it also got a cc. Power lash got a lot of changes but of course because the ability wasnt flat out buffed to the sky, every biased person proceeded to present the ability as trash.

    As far as Zaan is concerned im not talking about which class can benefit the most. Im talking about you calling it awesome cause ur DK can use it even tho now u admit is OP.

    In the latest PTS update multiple abilities became dodgeable, blockable etc so they all function the same way. And yet the DK drama shoot up again because once again their class is dead now that embers is dodgeable.

    All classes are getting nerfed all over the place. Its not a contest. Which one is getting nerfed the most is again a biased opinion. You would present the atro changes as a buff even tho in no CP it actually got a huge nerf. But you would also present the power lash cd as a nerf even tho you can now arguably get more power lashes than before. You are talking about buffs and ability reworks on other classes even tho you present similar changes to ur class as huge nerfs that destroy the class. Thats the definition of being biased.

    So chill. ZOS doesnt hate you. They are just incapable of balancing their game cause they refuse to rework the CP system.

    There is no difference in this game between Pve and PvP, to talk about one is to talk about the other by neccesity of the games functions because there is no seperation of the two.


    I have given exact reasons why the ADDITION of a 3 sec cooldown on lash on top of ALL previous nerfs is far to much for Dk's now to handle on an already struggling class for sustain and damage before and after morrowind dropped. The dodge part I already stated for both LASH and EMBERS that I do not give a crap about, hell make Dragon Leap dodgeable for all I care.

    Those ARE NOT THE ISSUE as I clearly indicated in my INTRO of the very beggining of my first post. Which you apparently haven't
    even read as I already addressed all of your points here.


    By the by, if you paid attention I clearly said it was awesome they had given dk's SOMETHING to
    use as it was finally a different set, after viewing the PTS I revised my original opinion and I have NO ISSUE with the nerf to it at all. I mean christ, the set hasn't even landed on live yet.

    The dk as I said, is the ONLY class to be specifically punished multiple times on our only resource sustainibility AFTER morrowind to nerf PvP tanks, but it punished NON TANKS far more indiscriminately and as a result made the class weaker in all aspects far more than every other class.

    That is called IMBALANCE


    [Edited for quote]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on January 31, 2018 1:53PM
  • Nelson_Rebel
    Nelson_Rebel
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    "underperforming"


    LOL

    cant take you seriously m7+1

    I'm sure saying that is by far the most logical and articulated post in this thread, I mean damn all my supporting information to back up my claims.


    but hey m7? I guess you meant m8,

    +1 yourself
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    As OP mentioned, I have no problem with the changes IF DKs have decent passives... and yes, this is the part when I start complaining about Combustion (great passive tide to RGN :facepalm: )

    But there are things that I consider should be adressed on other passives and active skills and I'm not talking about the ardent flame skill line. For example, GDB provides Major endurance (which could be good) but Major Fortitude? Is that a useful effect on a class that needs to go vamp to survive? Ok, take away vamp and you can pair that major forti with Elder Dragon and a build around Orgnum's and Troll king, but ZoS nerfed health recovery too. Not to mention sustain. And also gives DK in general the most expensive skills in the game which is bad for mDK, but stupidly worst for stamDK..

    Any other active skill with a stupid second effect? Reflective plate giving minor ward... I mean, Actually the class has 3.3K extra spell res, and that skill gives more resistance? Ok, I can pair it with stonefist to get also minor resolve...so, to get those 2 minor buffs you must spend 7020 magicka... quite expensive for a mag class... and prohibitibe for a stamDK... beware, if you miss the stone, you won't get the buff.

    Moutain blessing´s minor brutality is great, but the ulti giving is not so good since no skill in that line is a spammable. Compared to magblade ulti generation, it's quite bad... on a class that relies on ultis.

    Cinder storm extra snare is just a bad example on how give nothing to a class. 1.1 secs after leaving the area is it any good? Caklrops is better even on a magcka char.

    I wish we could have some decent balance changes, but considering how DKs in general are, it's gonna be a huge rework.
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • Ankael07
    Ankael07
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Before starting a realistic discussion about magdk nerfs you have to ask yourself one thing. Was it the lack of constructive discussions/feedback that lead to these nerfs? The answer is no

    Same thing happens to all classes in every patch. People complain about shield stacking, Zenimax nerfs Crystal Frags or buffs Curse for some reason.

    Wrobel likes to see himself as the father to all classes/skills but I more see him as a mad scientist experimenting randomly with skills nerfing/buffing something that noone asked for. Then watching in fascination when forums erupt with rage.

    Edited by Ankael07 on February 2, 2018 5:27AM
    If you want me to reply to your comment type @Ankael07 in it.
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    lazerlaz wrote: »
    You're delusional to think mDK underperforms in PVP.

    My suggestion, UP YOUR FREAKING SKILL!

    Everyone keeps crying about nerfs or asks for nerfs. Why don't you look in the mirror instead. That's where the problem is.

    OR you could, you know, actually provide a rational response to refute or counter claim that has supporting information to back up your...opinion.. I suppose I'll call it.

    I gave clear concise information with my supporting information. Maybe you shouldn't post if you have nothing to contribute

    Its just your opinion. In every single patch you are repeating the same things, mDK is dead, mDK is dead, mDK is dead. Ok we get it. According to you mDK is dead and useless.

    I gave supporting information to back my claims


    THE only thing you and your like have done is bash and flame because you have no responses to my claims that I supported with legitimate information.

    Is the class unplayable? No, a controller will still fire off whatever commands that you hit in the damn game. Does that mean the class is okay? Absolutley not, which is the entire reason I'm even on here having this conversation. The class is stuck back in a patch ages ago and hasn't been updated since. Just nerf after nerf after nerf. Enough nerfs have been repeated to the same items that the class is clearly NOT performing well for anything besides tanking

    Your bias clouds factual information


    When the PTS dropped every single reasonable DK called power lash spam broken and in need of a change. You called power lash spam and a 2 piece set that can deal 15k-30k undodgeable dmg awesome changes. But i am biased?

    I do not consider the class fine. But in every single patch you are whining mDK is dead and creating drama how its unplayable useless, nerfed to [snip], only good for crafting etc. Every single class is getting nerfed patch after patch. Get over it.

    Yes the FIRST pts version of power lash was broken, and I was in support of NOT letting it change in that direction. But then what happened?

    We got a cooldown and off balance nerf cooldown on top of it, then they changed the functionality of our legitimate ONLY damage ability in our entire skill line that doesn't hit for less than 2k.

    The zaan set was overpowered, I agree but it also got nerfed, and in it's current state and in the state of mag dk currently it will be used 100% more effectively by magplar and even magblades because they have better skills and gap closers to maintain the sets damage usefulness along with EXECUTES to capitalize on the sets power even more. Dk's will not, and especially not after this current patch. If they can even manage to sustain well enough to get the proc to hit when they need it, let alone be able to stay in range long enough to matter.


    Yes every class got hit hard with morrowind but only Dk's have been specifically targeted the last 4 patches in a row that ALL directly further punished our sustain SPECIFICALLY after morrowind, the other classes recieved buffs to their passives in exchange and had GOOD reworks on their skills. The dk ALREADY was the worst sustain class before morrowind, the following patch's since have made it IMPOSSIBLE to compete in any pve environment and made pvp a joke for us

    I am talking about PVP. Not PVE.

    With the changes now you can get more power lashes than before unless you were using that niche blockade build. You are trying to spin facts and present the 3 second cooldown as a major nerf as if you were spamming power lashes before. The only nerf the ability got was making it dodgeable and thats not even a nerf. Thats a fix cause being undodgeable was a bug. But it also got buffed cause now it also got a cc. Power lash got a lot of changes but of course because the ability wasnt flat out buffed to the sky, every biased person proceeded to present the ability as trash.

    As far as Zaan is concerned im not talking about which class can benefit the most. Im talking about you calling it awesome cause ur DK can use it even tho now u admit is OP.

    In the latest PTS update multiple abilities became dodgeable, blockable etc so they all function the same way. And yet the DK drama shoot up again because once again their class is dead now that embers is dodgeable.

    All classes are getting nerfed all over the place. Its not a contest. Which one is getting nerfed the most is again a biased opinion. You would present the atro changes as a buff even tho in no CP it actually got a huge nerf. But you would also present the power lash cd as a nerf even tho you can now arguably get more power lashes than before. You are talking about buffs and ability reworks on other classes even tho you present similar changes to ur class as huge nerfs that destroy the class. Thats the definition of being biased.

    So chill. ZOS doesnt hate you. They are just incapable of balancing their game cause they refuse to rework the CP system.

    There is no difference in this game between Pve and PvP, to talk about one is to talk about the other by neccesity of the games functions because there is no seperation of the two.


    I have given exact reasons why the ADDITION of a 3 sec cooldown on lash on top of ALL previous nerfs is far to much for Dk's now to handle on an already struggling class for sustain and damage before and after morrowind dropped. The dodge part I already stated for both LASH and EMBERS that I do not give a crap about, hell make Dragon Leap dodgeable for all I care.

    Those ARE NOT THE ISSUE as I clearly indicated in my INTRO of the very beggining of my first post. Which you apparently haven't
    even read as I already addressed all of your points here.


    By the by, if you paid attention I clearly said it was awesome they had given dk's SOMETHING to
    use as it was finally a different set, after viewing the PTS I revised my original opinion and I have NO ISSUE with the nerf to it at all. I mean christ, the set hasn't even landed on live yet.

    The dk as I said, is the ONLY class to be specifically punished multiple times on our only resource sustainibility AFTER morrowind to nerf PvP tanks, but it punished NON TANKS far more indiscriminately and as a result made the class weaker in all aspects far more than every other class.

    That is called IMBALANCE

    Just because they are balanced together it doesnt mean that there is no difference between the two. There is absolutely a huge difference between PVP and PVE. You cant call a class trash in one aspect of the game based on how it performs in a different aspect of the game. With that logic wardens are both trash and OP at the same time. This doesnt make any sense.

    I said that i am strictly talking about PVP. If you are talking about PVE, thats a different discussion and yes no one would disagree that mDK needs help in PVE. However, PVP and PVE are balanced together. You simply cannot allow a spammable lash to help in PVE with sustain and dmg cause that would be too OP in PVP. From a PVP perspective tho, a 3 second cd is not a flat out nerf cause again, you were not spamming lashes before anw. Its more of a change. Not a nerf.

    As far as nerfs are concerned, again its not a contest about which class got nerfed the most (PVP). Obviously everyone will say that their class got nerfed the most. Its just a matter of perspective and biased opinion and i gave you a clear example. I can give you a lot more. You mentioned a bunch of DK changes that were nerfs or buffs depending on the situation and you presented them as huge nerfs destroying the class. But when it comes to other classes, those changes according to you are only buffs. This is not imbalance. Thats just a biased opinion. You see it that way. Other people see it in a different way. That doesnt mean that you are right and they are wrong.

    P.S. Leap should absolutely not become dodgeable. That would actually be a big nerf. It seems to me that your issues are more about PVE and not about PVP.

    [Edited for quote]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on January 31, 2018 1:53PM
  • Aerem
    Aerem
    ✭✭✭
    DK's really just need updated passives. Otherwise they are fine.

    #mDK Masterrace
    #NerfDragonblood
    #NerfmDK


    Aerem Incendium l mDK
  • FlamingBeard
    FlamingBeard
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Allow at least 2 Power Lash procs before each 3 second cooldown if the cooldown on the proc is here to stay.

    This would give the MagDK more time to recover some Magicka before they have to use Flame Lash again so it would help sustain at least a little between all their highly-expensive skills.

    Or if Power Lash keeps the one Lash per cooldown, but is dodged, it shouldn't go on cooldown until it hits.
    Edited by FlamingBeard on January 30, 2018 6:38PM
  • Sabbathius
    Sabbathius
    ✭✭✭✭
    What I would like to see, before anything else, is a comprehensive DK review, including passives.

    The theme of the game according to the devs has always been "play the way you like". Well, DK healers for example haven't been a thing in quite a while. When was the last time you guys say a DK main-heal a vet trial? Especially a leaderboard vet trial? Well, shouldn't that need fixing? Unless "play the way you like" is just hogwash.

    Similarly, review DPS as DK, with emphasis on lack of range and execute options. It's fine if you want the class to be DoT-based. It's fine to want them to be upclose. But you also can't have these guys doing as much DPS as classes that can do it from 28m away, and which significantly outshine DKs in execute phase. There has to be sufficient compensation for being in harm's way.

    And the same goes for every other class. When was the last time you saw a NB tank a vet trial? Not since their Sap Tanks got gutted, and they were pretty rare before that. Or a Sorc main-heal? As long as these things are the norm, and we're focusing on individual nerfs, the game will remain broken overall.

    Ideally I would like to see every class well capable and even desirable at each role - tanking, healing and DPS. They may do them in different ways. To use WoW as an example, a bear druid tank tanked with dodge and agility, by avoiding damage. A warrior tank tanked by blocking the damage. Paladin tank tanked by a mix of blocking and healing through it. And so on. And each one of these tanks was perfectly competitive, and depending on specific boss it often made sense to switch the main tank and off-tank, which made every class tank optimal somewhere. The way Warden was done was interesting. They got a distinct DPS tree, healing tree and tanking tree. And while they still need some tweaking, the framework is there. But the older classes are not so well laid out.

    Fixing that FIRST, because it is meta-level stuff, and THEN worrying about individual skills is the way to go, in my opinion. Crying over Whip or dodgeable Searing Strike isn't going to do much in a long run, because passives and the rest of the framework will remain largely useless, with obsolete, non-competitive skills. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a DK use Cauterize?
  • FlamingBeard
    FlamingBeard
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sabbathius wrote: »
    What I would like to see, before anything else, is a comprehensive DK review, including passives.

    The theme of the game according to the devs has always been "play the way you like". Well, DK healers for example haven't been a thing in quite a while. When was the last time you guys say a DK main-heal a vet trial? Especially a leaderboard vet trial? Well, shouldn't that need fixing? Unless "play the way you like" is just hogwash.

    Similarly, review DPS as DK, with emphasis on lack of range and execute options. It's fine if you want the class to be DoT-based. It's fine to want them to be upclose. But you also can't have these guys doing as much DPS as classes that can do it from 28m away, and which significantly outshine DKs in execute phase. There has to be sufficient compensation for being in harm's way.

    And the same goes for every other class. When was the last time you saw a NB tank a vet trial? Not since their Sap Tanks got gutted, and they were pretty rare before that. Or a Sorc main-heal? As long as these things are the norm, and we're focusing on individual nerfs, the game will remain broken overall.

    Ideally I would like to see every class well capable and even desirable at each role - tanking, healing and DPS. They may do them in different ways. To use WoW as an example, a bear druid tank tanked with dodge and agility, by avoiding damage. A warrior tank tanked by blocking the damage. Paladin tank tanked by a mix of blocking and healing through it. And so on. And each one of these tanks was perfectly competitive, and depending on specific boss it often made sense to switch the main tank and off-tank, which made every class tank optimal somewhere. The way Warden was done was interesting. They got a distinct DPS tree, healing tree and tanking tree. And while they still need some tweaking, the framework is there. But the older classes are not so well laid out.

    Fixing that FIRST, because it is meta-level stuff, and THEN worrying about individual skills is the way to go, in my opinion. Crying over Whip or dodgeable Searing Strike isn't going to do much in a long run, because passives and the rest of the framework will remain largely useless, with obsolete, non-competitive skills. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a DK use Cauterize?

    I know MagDKs who use Cauterize in duels, but that's about it since it becomes wildly unreliable in group PvP.

    Also complaining about Power Lash is to keep it in the discussion, since it's part of MagDK's spammable and a big survival and sustain skill in PvP and PvE. The new stun on Power Lash needs to be removed and it needs to allow up to 2 Power Lash procs per cooldown to keep the skill useable as a PvP burst combo with DK's crowd control skills since the class lacks an execute whatsoever. The stun makes it more difficult than necessary to utilize DKs original CCs effectively with combos.

    As for Searing Strike, it and its morphs need a bit of a range increase.
    Edited by FlamingBeard on January 30, 2018 6:47PM
  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Sabbathius wrote: »
    What I would like to see, before anything else, is a comprehensive DK review, including passives.

    The theme of the game according to the devs has always been "play the way you like". Well, DK healers for example haven't been a thing in quite a while.

    They are in PvP, just slot Eyes of Mara & start spamming those resto ulties & Healing Wards :smiley:

    Works surprisingly well in BGs, you can really help keep your team alive with that and fossilize spam on enemies.

    Of course that occasionally leaves you cursing the random pug who just stands there holding block & eating your wards while you're also taking damage... but it is what it is.
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
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