Bye Warden

Waffennacht

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

Good point

Zinaroth

Hutch679 wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

And why am I upset?

Not because it's dodgeable alone, the fact that they did absolutely nothing to help in PvE nor compensate for the change.

It's just plain worse - not different, just worse.

Could they have tweaked an artic wind morph?
Added an effect?
Reduced ability costs?

Of course, but no, ah hell no

But I suppose I should be happy that mSorc is no longer the worst PvP class

When was this golden time when magsorc was on the bottom? Please tell me, if you think it's right now sorry, stamsorc, stamdk and stamplar want to have a talk with you

Nothzing that's stamina can be bottom purely because of available sets that are OP

The opness of those sets isn't enough to push those classes above magsorc performance.

What? Lol stamplar is by far top dog right now.

In what universe?

You must not be on console.

I am in fact not on console - I am on PC.
I have been playing Stamplar since launch.
If Stamplar is the top dog right now tell me this:

How come I see more stamblades, stamwardens and stamsorcs around - not to mention magsorcs, magplars and magdks?

Surely if Stamplar was the top dog everyone would have gravitated towards those just like they did with magdk pre 1.6, magsorcs and stamblades in 1.6 - One Tamriel and Stamwardens pre-Morrowind?

How come when I go to dueling sites I see at top 1-2 other Templars which are both magicka (besides me) while the other classes easily have over 10 of each representing?

How come there are no big streamers that main a Stamplar? But instead play Sorcs, NBs, DKs and Stamwardens?

Stamplar is a bottom feeder spec and has been since launch. It's getting better and better - but not because Stamplars are getting their issues adressed, but because other classes are getting minor adjustments patch by patch to bring them down and because monster sets and other item sets are making the difference in classes so miniscule by now.

You made the claim so the burden of evidence is on you.

Go ahead and bring a real argument as to why Stamplars are "top dogs" right now - I expect a full comparison with other classes including statistical values and analysis.

I did these a year back. They were delivered right to Wrobel's desk (because he asked for feedback from me and a few other Stamplar players) and nothing was done.

But please, correct me, I implore you.

K.

Thought so...

@Firstmep I agree but I feel like what you're defining as being strengths about Stamplars goes for pretty much any stamina class. I don't see how Stamplar capitalizes more on running dual wield bleeds more than any other stam spec. But like you said this is a Warden thread and I don't intend to hijack it. Just got triggered by the guy saying Stamplars are "top dog" right now - which is obviously just plain out wrong.

Storymaster

Once again, another Sleiberdine topic.

Waffennacht

Storymaster wrote: »

Once again, another Sleiberdine topic.

I don't know this word, Sleiberdine

Lexxypwns

@Waffennacht I’ve got some really nice plans for mag warden next patch. I think switching to force pulse is going to allow me to build waaaaay more damage than the racer gives us

Tryxus

LioraValkyrie wrote: »

If memory serves correctly, the cliff racers were made un-dodgeable following feedback that they were too easy to dodge

My guess is the devs believed that our slower, delayed offense would be no match for the quick and nimble Medium Armor wearers with passive dodge chance. So they gave us an undodgeable spammable to give us a chance against them.

Turns out it could completely shut down Medium Armor wearers (except NB, Warden and possibly Sorc as well) since the Racer could hit really hard

The Racer is now gonna become dodgeable, which I compare to the training wheels being taken off from my bike when I was a kid. A necessary change that's gonna be quite interesting...

TheHsN

i have never welcomed warden anyway:):):)

Ultimate_Overlord

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

Wtf did i just read?? Inability to gurantee your ability lands suddenly takes away your ability to use it tactically? It is literally the exact opposite. And if youre telling me that 15% dodge chance with an ability that costs like 2-3k stam and increases in cost with every consecutive use kills any sort of build then the player using the build is most likely incompetent at the game. Also force shock and morphs are dodgable.

BroanBeast1215

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Lexxypwns

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

BroanBeast1215

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

Yes I believe they are undodgeable at the moment but IIRC it wasn't always that way, I was fine with them being dodgeable has it never really effected me enough to notice as I was typing that post out I recalled jabs being changed in that regard and could only chuckle you have me there though, as a stamplar rending/jabs are my only forms of damage aside from dawnbreaker and if you took away the jab skill completely I probably wouldn't win


edit: update 13 looks like when they changed it from being dodgeable to un-dodgeable tbh I wouldn't care if they decided to change it back for balancing(s) sake.

Lexxypwns

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

Yes I believe they are undodgeable at the moment but IIRC it wasn't always that way, I was fine with them being dodgeable has it never really effected me enough to notice as I was typing that post out I recalled jabs being changed in that regard and could only chuckle you have me there though, as a stamplar rending/jabs are my only forms of damage aside from dawnbreaker and if you took away the jab skill completely I probably wouldn't win


edit: update 13 looks like when they changed it from being dodgeable to un-dodgeable tbh I wouldn't care if they decided to change it back for balancing(s) sake.

I was just trolling tbh. Just found it ironic because your spammable is also dodgeable(it should stay that way, birds needed this nerf)

Twohothardware

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

Yes I believe they are undodgeable at the moment but IIRC it wasn't always that way, I was fine with them being dodgeable has it never really effected me enough to notice as I was typing that post out I recalled jabs being changed in that regard and could only chuckle you have me there though, as a stamplar rending/jabs are my only forms of damage aside from dawnbreaker and if you took away the jab skill completely I probably wouldn't win


edit: update 13 looks like when they changed it from being dodgeable to un-dodgeable tbh I wouldn't care if they decided to change it back for balancing(s) sake.

Jabs needs to go back to being dodgeable if they're going to make all these other classes main attacks dodgeable. Wrecking Blow, Surprise Attack, and now even DK's Lash and Warden's Birds are all dodgeable and outside of Birds they are also close range melee attacks like Jabs. Or if they're going to leave Templars Jabs as undodgeable they have to at least remove the snare.

SodanTok

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Well this concern is very legit. Obviously it does not matter to anyone, less to ZoS that very rarely make balances changes with non meta builds in mind (less so with anything bow related), but Cutting Dive was de facto the execute for bow builds, mostly against nightblades that can easily suppress the already weak execute in poison injection. Just by removing cutting dive, their survival rate goes from like 20% to 80%. I don't know how Mag wardens deal with it, possibly by having bigger burst so better kill secure, but I don't see how bow warden will be playable now if they don't make other tools available asap (like arrow spray... which is AoE, but still dodgeable)

BohnT

Twohothardware wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

Yes I believe they are undodgeable at the moment but IIRC it wasn't always that way, I was fine with them being dodgeable has it never really effected me enough to notice as I was typing that post out I recalled jabs being changed in that regard and could only chuckle you have me there though, as a stamplar rending/jabs are my only forms of damage aside from dawnbreaker and if you took away the jab skill completely I probably wouldn't win


edit: update 13 looks like when they changed it from being dodgeable to un-dodgeable tbh I wouldn't care if they decided to change it back for balancing(s) sake.

Jabs needs to go back to being dodgeable if they're going to make all these other classes main attacks dodgeable. Wrecking Blow, Surprise Attack, and now even DK's Lash and Warden's Birds are all dodgeable and outside of Birds they are also close range melee attacks like Jabs. Or if they're going to leave Templars Jabs as undodgeable they have to at least remove the snare.

If you make jabs dodgeable then you can remove stamplar from pvp.
The difference between all other spammables and jabs is the 1.1 seconds cast time. Everyone would simply dodge after the first hit. That's the reason why it's undodgeable to give it some use in pvp.
Jabs are already overrated by many players who think they are godlike.
Just snare the stamplar and then walk around it or jump in and out and see how often he can hit his jabs.

When jabs were dodgeable the number of stamplars was somewhere around 0 because you can't kill anyone when they can simply ignore 90% of your channeled main spammable damage with a dodgeroll.

ak_pvp

BohnT wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

Yes I believe they are undodgeable at the moment but IIRC it wasn't always that way, I was fine with them being dodgeable has it never really effected me enough to notice as I was typing that post out I recalled jabs being changed in that regard and could only chuckle you have me there though, as a stamplar rending/jabs are my only forms of damage aside from dawnbreaker and if you took away the jab skill completely I probably wouldn't win


edit: update 13 looks like when they changed it from being dodgeable to un-dodgeable tbh I wouldn't care if they decided to change it back for balancing(s) sake.

Jabs needs to go back to being dodgeable if they're going to make all these other classes main attacks dodgeable. Wrecking Blow, Surprise Attack, and now even DK's Lash and Warden's Birds are all dodgeable and outside of Birds they are also close range melee attacks like Jabs. Or if they're going to leave Templars Jabs as undodgeable they have to at least remove the snare.

If you make jabs dodgeable then you can remove stamplar from pvp.
The difference between all other spammables and jabs is the 1.1 seconds cast time. Everyone would simply dodge after the first hit. That's the reason why it's undodgeable to give it some use in pvp.
Jabs are already overrated by many players who think they are godlike.
Just snare the stamplar and then walk around it or jump in and out and see how often he can hit his jabs.

When jabs were dodgeable the number of stamplars was somewhere around 0 because you can't kill anyone when they can simply ignore 90% of your channeled main spammable damage with a dodgeroll.

Not exactly the right thread, but hey, we are comparing spammables.

Can you not argue the same for powerlash. Not being channeled, but requiring abilities before it to process. That you can counter the setup, because they would dodge instantly as talons is up. And then if you have successfully set them off balance after 1.2s setup time (2gcds are this iirc) it can still be dodged.

Derra

ak_pvp wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

Yes I believe they are undodgeable at the moment but IIRC it wasn't always that way, I was fine with them being dodgeable has it never really effected me enough to notice as I was typing that post out I recalled jabs being changed in that regard and could only chuckle you have me there though, as a stamplar rending/jabs are my only forms of damage aside from dawnbreaker and if you took away the jab skill completely I probably wouldn't win


edit: update 13 looks like when they changed it from being dodgeable to un-dodgeable tbh I wouldn't care if they decided to change it back for balancing(s) sake.

Jabs needs to go back to being dodgeable if they're going to make all these other classes main attacks dodgeable. Wrecking Blow, Surprise Attack, and now even DK's Lash and Warden's Birds are all dodgeable and outside of Birds they are also close range melee attacks like Jabs. Or if they're going to leave Templars Jabs as undodgeable they have to at least remove the snare.

If you make jabs dodgeable then you can remove stamplar from pvp.
The difference between all other spammables and jabs is the 1.1 seconds cast time. Everyone would simply dodge after the first hit. That's the reason why it's undodgeable to give it some use in pvp.
Jabs are already overrated by many players who think they are godlike.
Just snare the stamplar and then walk around it or jump in and out and see how often he can hit his jabs.

When jabs were dodgeable the number of stamplars was somewhere around 0 because you can't kill anyone when they can simply ignore 90% of your channeled main spammable damage with a dodgeroll.

Not exactly the right thread, but hey, we are comparing spammables.

Can you not argue the same for powerlash. Not being channeled, but requiring abilities before it to process. That you can counter the setup, because they would dodge instantly as talons is up. And then if you have successfully set them off balance after 1.2s setup time (2gcds are this iirc) it can still be dodged.

The problem with powerlash was quite frankly said that basically the whole DK toolkit he´d throw at you was undodgeable.
Chains, petrify, whip =>powerlash, embers, volatile
Exactly 1 attack is dodgeable of those currently on live. It´s grossly overperforming against medium armor as soon as you slot your undodgeable gapcloser (which admittedly most DKs don´t do).

I´m not even going to start arguing it´s not somewhat balanced if DK is immobile by not slotting a gapcloser - bc then medium can play with mobility advantage eventually. But that´s on the DKs not using chains when it´s perfectily fine to use - and if it´s used having the whole toolkit undodgeable is broken.

ak_pvp

Derra wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

Yes I believe they are undodgeable at the moment but IIRC it wasn't always that way, I was fine with them being dodgeable has it never really effected me enough to notice as I was typing that post out I recalled jabs being changed in that regard and could only chuckle you have me there though, as a stamplar rending/jabs are my only forms of damage aside from dawnbreaker and if you took away the jab skill completely I probably wouldn't win


edit: update 13 looks like when they changed it from being dodgeable to un-dodgeable tbh I wouldn't care if they decided to change it back for balancing(s) sake.

Jabs needs to go back to being dodgeable if they're going to make all these other classes main attacks dodgeable. Wrecking Blow, Surprise Attack, and now even DK's Lash and Warden's Birds are all dodgeable and outside of Birds they are also close range melee attacks like Jabs. Or if they're going to leave Templars Jabs as undodgeable they have to at least remove the snare.

If you make jabs dodgeable then you can remove stamplar from pvp.
The difference between all other spammables and jabs is the 1.1 seconds cast time. Everyone would simply dodge after the first hit. That's the reason why it's undodgeable to give it some use in pvp.
Jabs are already overrated by many players who think they are godlike.
Just snare the stamplar and then walk around it or jump in and out and see how often he can hit his jabs.

When jabs were dodgeable the number of stamplars was somewhere around 0 because you can't kill anyone when they can simply ignore 90% of your channeled main spammable damage with a dodgeroll.

Not exactly the right thread, but hey, we are comparing spammables.

Can you not argue the same for powerlash. Not being channeled, but requiring abilities before it to process. That you can counter the setup, because they would dodge instantly as talons is up. And then if you have successfully set them off balance after 1.2s setup time (2gcds are this iirc) it can still be dodged.

The problem with powerlash was quite frankly said that basically the whole DK toolkit he´d throw at you was undodgeable.
Chains, petrify, whip =>powerlash, embers, volatile
Exactly 1 attack is dodgeable of those currently on live. It´s grossly overperforming against medium armor as soon as you slot your undodgeable gapcloser (which admittedly most DKs don´t do).

I´m not even going to start arguing it´s not somewhat balanced if DK is immobile by not slotting a gapcloser - bc then medium can play with mobility advantage eventually. But that´s on the DKs not using chains when it´s perfectily fine to use - and if it´s used having the whole toolkit undodgeable is broken.

I agree with too much dodgable being bad, medium compared to L/H is in an awful place.

That is sort of down to how it was designed. Embers should have always been avoidable, I wholeheartedly agree that the heal spam against dodgers was broken. Chains is undodgable due to the silly way they designed it as a projectile first, which IMO should be changed since it gives it some unnecessary clunkage. Petrify being no doubt great against dodgers, (and altogether) but having range changes which brought about the higher need for chains, whereas before it could deal easier with the distance created with dodge, that seemed like a fair trade off.

After the update, it'd be only petrify and chains being undodgable versions of normal abilities, AoEs being undodgable generally. I, and many other DKs would rather instead of chains being undodgable, it to work like other GCs, and have our situational burst/defacto finisher with a cooldown to be undodgable. This would reward you for the setup; sort of like fury's situational pop being undodgable. [Unless they changed something since morrow] And would also fix some of the issues surrounding it, chaining into keeps and clunk being a large one.

Twohothardware

BohnT wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

Yes I believe they are undodgeable at the moment but IIRC it wasn't always that way, I was fine with them being dodgeable has it never really effected me enough to notice as I was typing that post out I recalled jabs being changed in that regard and could only chuckle you have me there though, as a stamplar rending/jabs are my only forms of damage aside from dawnbreaker and if you took away the jab skill completely I probably wouldn't win


edit: update 13 looks like when they changed it from being dodgeable to un-dodgeable tbh I wouldn't care if they decided to change it back for balancing(s) sake.

Jabs needs to go back to being dodgeable if they're going to make all these other classes main attacks dodgeable. Wrecking Blow, Surprise Attack, and now even DK's Lash and Warden's Birds are all dodgeable and outside of Birds they are also close range melee attacks like Jabs. Or if they're going to leave Templars Jabs as undodgeable they have to at least remove the snare.

If you make jabs dodgeable then you can remove stamplar from pvp.
The difference between all other spammables and jabs is the 1.1 seconds cast time. Everyone would simply dodge after the first hit. That's the reason why it's undodgeable to give it some use in pvp.
Jabs are already overrated by many players who think they are godlike.
Just snare the stamplar and then walk around it or jump in and out and see how often he can hit his jabs.

When jabs were dodgeable the number of stamplars was somewhere around 0 because you can't kill anyone when they can simply ignore 90% of your channeled main spammable damage with a dodgeroll.

Then remove the snare on Jabs if it's going to be the only main attack in the game that's undodgeable. There's no reason for it to also have a 70% snare.

ak_pvp

Twohothardware wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

Yes I believe they are undodgeable at the moment but IIRC it wasn't always that way, I was fine with them being dodgeable has it never really effected me enough to notice as I was typing that post out I recalled jabs being changed in that regard and could only chuckle you have me there though, as a stamplar rending/jabs are my only forms of damage aside from dawnbreaker and if you took away the jab skill completely I probably wouldn't win


edit: update 13 looks like when they changed it from being dodgeable to un-dodgeable tbh I wouldn't care if they decided to change it back for balancing(s) sake.

Jabs needs to go back to being dodgeable if they're going to make all these other classes main attacks dodgeable. Wrecking Blow, Surprise Attack, and now even DK's Lash and Warden's Birds are all dodgeable and outside of Birds they are also close range melee attacks like Jabs. Or if they're going to leave Templars Jabs as undodgeable they have to at least remove the snare.

If you make jabs dodgeable then you can remove stamplar from pvp.
The difference between all other spammables and jabs is the 1.1 seconds cast time. Everyone would simply dodge after the first hit. That's the reason why it's undodgeable to give it some use in pvp.
Jabs are already overrated by many players who think they are godlike.
Just snare the stamplar and then walk around it or jump in and out and see how often he can hit his jabs.

When jabs were dodgeable the number of stamplars was somewhere around 0 because you can't kill anyone when they can simply ignore 90% of your channeled main spammable damage with a dodgeroll.

Then remove the snare on Jabs if it's going to be the only main attack in the game that's undodgeable. There's no reason for it to also have a 70% snare.

Snares should be maj/min with a maj being 30% Nothing in this game should have 70%.

Hutch679

Jabs should for sureeeee be dodgable. Let's start this trend for the next update!

Waffennacht

It's like locust, they just consumed warden, now they fly to templar

Ron_Burgundy_79

Hutch679 wrote: »

Jabs should for sureeeee be dodgable. Let's start this trend for the next update!

Sure.. let's make an easily avoidable, channeled skill even more avoidable. Worked for all the pugs who complained about blazing spear being OP.

Lexxypwns

Please don’t nerf jabs, I was just trolling. What have I done?

JobooAGS

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Please don’t nerf jabs, I was just trolling. What have I done?

You cannot troll like that on the internet and not expect someone to take it seriously lolololol

Arkangeloski

Waffennacht wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

Omg overreact much. If you needed undodgeable birds to perform as a MagWarden in PvP that tells me that you were basically just surfing around Xv1ing solo/small scale players.

First off read my material and realize I'm a solo PvP and BG player.

Second, it's not an isolated change. They strictly made mag warden worse. Meaning Stam warden, and especially mag NB are superior choices. Why purposely play a worse class/resource?

Next, even running a non -tank/healer warden was for PvP, now that everything a mag warden does is slow, it's now the most easily avoided class. On console someone roll dodging to the side is an affective counter to shalk, now it also counters birds. Just roll dodging alone counters everything a mag warden does. This of course only pertains to small scale.

In fact I'd say this has more of an affect on solo/small scale than zerging

Good im glad to hear you are from console i dont know in what world you live in or what is your perspective of pvp, but one of the main problems was multiple wardens spaming 7k birds from behind a zerg... and you know something is broken when you see mag wardens running around with grand overlord titles 4 months after the release of morrowind just sayin... broken stuff sells, and now that they squezed every dime out of your pockets, they are nerfing it as planned.

ak_pvp

I have an idea, though not sure how well it'd work.

Make bird more "pet like" so it spawns 3 birds, hits the targetted/closest enemy once per sec over 3s for same damage as it does now. Like FOO but faster. That way it would allow for some well set up burst, or more complex rotations in PvE.

majulook

My Magden build quit using birds a while ago as they were to slow.

Waffennacht

Arkangeloski wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

Omg overreact much. If you needed undodgeable birds to perform as a MagWarden in PvP that tells me that you were basically just surfing around Xv1ing solo/small scale players.

First off read my material and realize I'm a solo PvP and BG player.

Second, it's not an isolated change. They strictly made mag warden worse. Meaning Stam warden, and especially mag NB are superior choices. Why purposely play a worse class/resource?

Next, even running a non -tank/healer warden was for PvP, now that everything a mag warden does is slow, it's now the most easily avoided class. On console someone roll dodging to the side is an affective counter to shalk, now it also counters birds. Just roll dodging alone counters everything a mag warden does. This of course only pertains to small scale.

In fact I'd say this has more of an affect on solo/small scale than zerging

Good im glad to hear you are from console i dont know in what world you live in or what is your perspective of pvp, but one of the main problems was multiple wardens spaming 7k birds from behind a zerg... and you know something is broken when you see mag wardens running around with grand overlord titles 4 months after the release of morrowind just sayin... broken stuff sells, and now that they squezed every dime out of your pockets, they are nerfing it as planned.

Imo, something a zerg does cannot be used for balance arguments. If any one ability is used x7 at you, you're gonna die - and it doesn't really matter what ability it is.

And some people (such as the lead developer) believe that if x7 abilities are aimed at you - you should die. (Not always true but just a statement)

- edit - as to your money comment... Well it sure as heck looks like that's what happened

CatchMeTrolling

Twohothardware wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

You now suck for Pve and PvP

Cool

Edit: I should say magicka, the dive change does absolutely nothing to the darn near OP Stam version

It actually kills a Bow/Bow Warden against any nightblades or shuffle users. With an unreliable CC on a Warden and the ability to dodge every bow attack, plus the lack of a class execute, a few birds were the only way to actually execute a nightblade.

It isn't just about the ability to spam the birds. People can do that with force pulse, which is also undodgeable. Being able to use them tactically in a build is now gone.

lol wut? stamplars have no class execute, we get along just fine if you can't kill a medium armor build w/o an ability that ignores their main form of defense I haz some bad newz

also force pulse is dodgeable. lol


wizard above me^

Aren’t jabs undodgeable? Can you kill a stamblade without jabs?

Yes I believe they are undodgeable at the moment but IIRC it wasn't always that way, I was fine with them being dodgeable has it never really effected me enough to notice as I was typing that post out I recalled jabs being changed in that regard and could only chuckle you have me there though, as a stamplar rending/jabs are my only forms of damage aside from dawnbreaker and if you took away the jab skill completely I probably wouldn't win


edit: update 13 looks like when they changed it from being dodgeable to un-dodgeable tbh I wouldn't care if they decided to change it back for balancing(s) sake.

Jabs needs to go back to being dodgeable if they're going to make all these other classes main attacks dodgeable. Wrecking Blow, Surprise Attack, and now even DK's Lash and Warden's Birds are all dodgeable and outside of Birds they are also close range melee attacks like Jabs. Or if they're going to leave Templars Jabs as undodgeable they have to at least remove the snare.

If you make jabs dodgeable then you can remove stamplar from pvp.
The difference between all other spammables and jabs is the 1.1 seconds cast time. Everyone would simply dodge after the first hit. That's the reason why it's undodgeable to give it some use in pvp.
Jabs are already overrated by many players who think they are godlike.
Just snare the stamplar and then walk around it or jump in and out and see how often he can hit his jabs.

When jabs were dodgeable the number of stamplars was somewhere around 0 because you can't kill anyone when they can simply ignore 90% of your channeled main spammable damage with a dodgeroll.

Then remove the snare on Jabs if it's going to be the only main attack in the game that's undodgeable. There's no reason for it to also have a 70% snare.

I’m pretty sure many Templar mains would trade the snare to regain the cc and nerfed healing.