Gap Closers are OP

JackDaniell

So Zenimax is nerfing gap closers this coming February, Crit Rush getting hit the hardest by losing 39% damage. As a longtime PvP player I think the snare that all Gap closers apply is problem, not the damage. I made a video of my thoughts (and me playing a Gap closing build). What do you guys think about this change?

https://youtu.be/wt5_QDtJ-VY

Qwazzy

A gap closer should do just that.
These abilities should simply move the casters character.
There shouldn't be any adverse effects attached aside from damage to the target.

Emma_Overload

Yes, the snare is a big problem. It's also ridiculous that the travel distances of gap closers are so much longer than the teleport distance of Bolt Escape! This should have been balanced a LONG time ago.

Sixty5

The snare is there just to ensure that the ability lands.

The funny thing is that with Medium + Major and Minor Expedition, you can actually outrun a gap closer, which is pretty hilarious.

Tetrafy

Gap closers were hardly OP. Am I playing a diferrent game?

kessik221

I think the problem is more you have no cooldown on snares\roots like you do on hard CC so someone who utilizes a range ability has no escape. If soft CC had a cooldown like hard CC people would have to make strategic decisions instead of spam the *** out of snares\immobolizations.

DKsUnite

Qwazz wrote: »

A gap closer should do just that.
These abilities should simply move casters character.
There shouldn't be any adverse effects attached aside from damage to the target.

This

Vapirko

Gap closers were never OP. I’ve never died to anyone or looked at any of my death recaps and been like damn those pesky gap closers. Maybe people should stop running away in plane sight or learn how los and kite properly if they need to retreat. If someone turns tail and runs I’m prob gonna gap close them. Well whatever just makes it that much easier to keep working on 1vX. You do realize role dodge stamina builds will have a field day with this. There’s going to be so many tears about joe gap closers don’t do enough damage anymore. So whoever cried for this nerf, nice job.

brandonv516

The snare is a huge issue and even more of an issue when it happens while in Mist Form.

Waffennacht

Vapirko wrote: »

Gap closers were never OP. I’ve never died to anyone or looked at any of my death recaps and been like damn those pesky gap closers. Maybe people should stop running away in plane sight or learn how los and kite properly if they need to retreat. If someone turns tail and runs I’m prob gonna gap close them. Well whatever just makes it that much easier to keep working on 1vX. You do realize role dodge stamina builds will have a field day with this. There’s going to be so many tears about joe gap closers don’t do enough damage anymore. So whoever cried for this nerf, nice job.

This is the only game where range is not a viable advantage/or strategy, gap closers are the reason for this.

The fact is gap closers completely negate a whole form of gameplay makes them OP.

Now, they are a tool as they always should have been.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

gr8 another one of those posts...BEWARE everyone...incoming gap closer removal soon.

akredon_ESO

Man i wish my skills worked as good as the Templar in this video does. hell i might be half decent in PVP if this was the case.

Wreuntzylla

Vapirko wrote: »

Gap closers were never OP. I’ve never died to anyone or looked at any of my death recaps and been like damn those pesky gap closers. Maybe people should stop running away in plane sight or learn how los and kite properly if they need to retreat. If someone turns tail and runs I’m prob gonna gap close them. Well whatever just makes it that much easier to keep working on 1vX. You do realize role dodge stamina builds will have a field day with this. There’s going to be so many tears about joe gap closers don’t do enough damage anymore. So whoever cried for this nerf, nice job.

You beat me to the first sentence.

As to the second, as fun it is running in circles around a tree for 10 minutes, and killing the couple puggers who didn't notice everyone else got bored, I can empathize with a company not wanting their PvP game to be defined by running away.

LordSemaj

You mentioned Crit Rush but it's one of the gap closers that doesn't have a snare at all and it got hit the hardest. This and the ZOS messages support that they feel the damage on gap closers was too high. They're meant to be a gap closer, a utility tool, yet were capable of putting out damage similar to actual DPS abilities. I've been hit by a Crit Rush that did over 8000 dmg, probably had a maelstrom weapon. Point is for anyone trying to kite, someone using a gap closer that does normal ability levels of damage was a bit broken. They don't have to use any other skill. Just spam the gap closer till you die.

Regarding the snare on SOME gap closers though... that's pretty normal in games because it allows the player to actually get a benefit from closing the gap instead of the enemy instantly moving away with a speed buff on. This especially happens in games with cooldowns.

cyclonus11

Please just nerf for PvP and not PvE ***dammit

xbobx

why not remove all the damage from gap closers? the point of them is to close the gap. Keep the snare and damage buffs to other skills, but lose the damage all together.

LordSemaj

xbobx wrote: »

why not remove all the damage from gap closers? the point of them is to close the gap. Keep the snare and damage buffs to other skills, but lose the damage all together.

Same reason the tank's taunt or the group's major fracture or major defile appliers deal damage. You're still using 1 of your 5 slots for an ability and with enough buffs on your bar that shouldn't leave you defenseless. People regularly run only 1 or 2 dps abilities per bar and a bunch of non-damaging buffs. Making these utility attacks do no damage at all would leave some players with 0 or 1 damaging abilities. Light attack spam!

Ruckly

I don't know what to say to this but it did give me a great idea. Play a tanky character and use a lvl 1 sword to keep someone perma snared with a gap closer.

LordSemaj

Ruckly wrote: »

I don't know what to say to this but it did give me a great idea. Play a tanky character and use a lvl 1 sword to keep someone perma snared with a gap closer.

What exactly is that going to do for you? Does using a low level weapon reduce the stamina cost somehow?

technohic

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Yes, the snare is a big problem. It's also ridiculous that the travel distances of gap closers are so much longer than the teleport distance of Bolt Escape! This should have been balanced a LONG time ago.

This is about the only thing that is running down a bolt escape spamming sorc. Especially once dark deal has some extra interrupt immunity. That part is balanced. Its the strength of the snares that are over the top IMO. My Magblade gets 70%! I use it, but thats too much. Just make it a root and therefore breakable and with a short immunity at that point.

Wreuntzylla

LordSemaj wrote: »

You mentioned Crit Rush but it's one of the gap closers that doesn't have a snare at all and it got hit the hardest. This and the ZOS messages support that they feel the damage on gap closers was too high. They're meant to be a gap closer, a utility tool, yet were capable of putting out damage similar to actual DPS abilities. I've been hit by a Crit Rush that did over 8000 dmg, probably had a maelstrom weapon. Point is for anyone trying to kite, someone using a gap closer that does normal ability levels of damage was a bit broken. They don't have to use any other skill. Just spam the gap closer till you die.

Regarding the snare on SOME gap closers though... that's pretty normal in games because it allows the player to actually get a benefit from closing the gap instead of the enemy instantly moving away with a speed buff on. This especially happens in games with cooldowns.

I pvp with a variety of different toons. My AP farmer is in medium armor with all devines, no crit resistance worth mentioning. I have no idea how you are getting hit for 8k by crit rush. Typically, about 5k, maybe 6-7k on the high side. I have to guess light armor without crit resist?


I find myself fortunate to rarely see an 8k+ hit even though I chose not to wear impen. I also get alot of mileage using devines in my build. fair tradeoff.

LordSemaj

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

I pvp with a variety of different toons. My AP farmer is in medium armor with all devines, no crit resistance worth mentioning. I have no idea how you are getting hit for 8k by crit rush. Typically, about 5k, maybe 6-7k on the high side. I have to guess light armor without crit resist?

On that character, medium armor with full impen. 12k resists and about 1800 resist. Crit Rush scales up its damage by distance, the character can buff his damage in various ways, and Maelstrom two-handers add more that I believe gets counted as part of the ability on the death recap. Most of Cyrodiil is full of players running gank builds and going for the crazy instakills so it wouldn't surprise me if I was debuffed with Major Fracture and the enemy happened to be a nightblade.

fosokles

I don't understand that nerf my self but who cares. Not even the devs care about the game

Ruckly

LordSemaj wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

I don't know what to say to this but it did give me a great idea. Play a tanky character and use a lvl 1 sword to keep someone perma snared with a gap closer.

What exactly is that going to do for you? Does using a low level weapon reduce the stamina cost somehow?

It reduces the damage done to the target so they don't die. e.g. gc,gc,ha,gc,gc,ha and two hander on back bar for big vigor/rally. Or I suppose that would work better with a level 1 staff. Level 1 staff!

Anyways my best guess at the dmg nerf is it has something to do with putting nirnhoned on sword-singer or war maiden and packet compression and giant bursts. e.g. I have 60k effective health(47k of it out of relevant execute territory because of proc) and capped resistances + 8% damage reduction from minor something and someone nearly KOd me in 2 seconds. But that was only one person. Started with a gap closer.

Nyladreas

Very very short Root, Rush, Snare.
Very very short Stun, Rush. <- not if casting is vital.

The stun one on a different diminishing return global to avoid hinderance. 1 second max, unless only class stun -> 2.5 seconds MAX. Effective as interrupt as well.

Root is very important and helps with the world latency. Snare is to ensure you catch your target. 2.5 seconds max. Applies after root ends. Again this is vital.

Rush = the actual gap close.

NO DAMAGE.

Diminishing returns MUST be present.

generalmyrick

thank god

Vapirko

Waffennacht wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Gap closers were never OP. I’ve never died to anyone or looked at any of my death recaps and been like damn those pesky gap closers. Maybe people should stop running away in plane sight or learn how los and kite properly if they need to retreat. If someone turns tail and runs I’m prob gonna gap close them. Well whatever just makes it that much easier to keep working on 1vX. You do realize role dodge stamina builds will have a field day with this. There’s going to be so many tears about joe gap closers don’t do enough damage anymore. So whoever cried for this nerf, nice job.

This is the only game where range is not a viable advantage/or strategy, gap closers are the reason for this.

The fact is gap closers completely negate a whole form of gameplay makes them OP.

Now, they are a tool as they always should have been.

I respect your opinions, but if gap closers negates a whole form of gameplay as you suggest, we would see no ranged magicka builds and that, as I’m sure you know, is definitely not he case. Magicka users have performed jsut fine with gap closers as they are. If you’re talking about bow builds then gap closers are certainly not the reason they’re not as viable.

Didgerion

Gap closer should be strong! As you use this skill only once - to open the fight, and that's all about it! It stays for the entire duration of the fight unused after that - taking one slot on your bar!

Lots of strong builds gave up on the "over-performing" gap closer already!

With this nerf there won't be gap closers on solo builds anymore.

Oh ZERGS will still continue to spam it - as the damage was never the reason why it is used there.

Vapirko

Didgerion wrote: »

Gap closer should be strong! As you use this skill only once - to open the fight, and that's all about it! It stays for the entire duration of the fight unused after that - taking one slot on your bar!

Lots of strong builds gave up on the "over-performing" gap closer already!

With this nerf there won't be gap closers on solo builds anymore.

Oh ZERGS will still continue to spam it - as the damage was never the reason why it is used there.

They’ll still be strong. Again having played both ranged mag builds and melee buillds I’ve never once thought they were OP. Post update 17 though I see myself using the snare morph over the damage morph.

Didgerion

Vapirko wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Gap closer should be strong! As you use this skill only once - to open the fight, and that's all about it! It stays for the entire duration of the fight unused after that - taking one slot on your bar!

Lots of strong builds gave up on the "over-performing" gap closer already!

With this nerf there won't be gap closers on solo builds anymore.

Oh ZERGS will still continue to spam it - as the damage was never the reason why it is used there.

They’ll still be strong. Again having played both ranged mag builds and melee buillds I’ve never once thought they were OP. Post update 17 though I see myself using the snare morph over the damage morph.

It won't be strong anymore - you better replace the gap closer with Retreating Maneuver for example - as it will help you to gap close and to retreat if needed!
Or you better replace it with 2H Carve skill with a Master Weapon - that skill will be OP with AOE cap removal.

The idea is that gap closer is already a skill that is not on the bars of most strong builds. It is still used in some specialized builds like @JackDaniell 's one. And this nerf just does one thing - it kills the builds variety - which is not that big already.

Vapirko

Didgerion wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Gap closer should be strong! As you use this skill only once - to open the fight, and that's all about it! It stays for the entire duration of the fight unused after that - taking one slot on your bar!

Lots of strong builds gave up on the "over-performing" gap closer already!

With this nerf there won't be gap closers on solo builds anymore.

Oh ZERGS will still continue to spam it - as the damage was never the reason why it is used there.

They’ll still be strong. Again having played both ranged mag builds and melee buillds I’ve never once thought they were OP. Post update 17 though I see myself using the snare morph over the damage morph.

It won't be powerful anymore - you better replace the gap closer with Retreating Maneuver for example - as it will help you to gap close and to retreat if needed!
Or 2H Carve skill with a Master Weapon - that skill will be OP with AOE cap removal.

The idea is that gap closer is already a skill that is not on the bars of most strong builds. It is still used in some specialized builds like @JackDaniell 's one. And this nerf just does one thing - it kills the builds variety - which is not that big already.

Heavy attack to gap closer double hit is still pretty strong and doesn’t have anything to do with the damage multiplier. For builds without a ranged cc gap closers will still be useful. I will like still run a gap closer on my stam sorc. Don’t get me wrong though, I think it’s a poor decision nerf and completely unneeded. And I play as a ranged magblade a lot of the time too. It’s so freakin easy to evade crit charge.