Gap Closers are OP

Ragnarock41

destroying crit rush damage without reducing its cost makes it absolutely unviable to use.

They are not balancing gapclosers, they are destroying them.

Didgerion

Vapirko wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Gap closer should be strong! As you use this skill only once - to open the fight, and that's all about it! It stays for the entire duration of the fight unused after that - taking one slot on your bar!

Lots of strong builds gave up on the "over-performing" gap closer already!

With this nerf there won't be gap closers on solo builds anymore.

Oh ZERGS will still continue to spam it - as the damage was never the reason why it is used there.

They’ll still be strong. Again having played both ranged mag builds and melee buillds I’ve never once thought they were OP. Post update 17 though I see myself using the snare morph over the damage morph.

It won't be powerful anymore - you better replace the gap closer with Retreating Maneuver for example - as it will help you to gap close and to retreat if needed!
Or 2H Carve skill with a Master Weapon - that skill will be OP with AOE cap removal.

The idea is that gap closer is already a skill that is not on the bars of most strong builds. It is still used in some specialized builds like @JackDaniell 's one. And this nerf just does one thing - it kills the builds variety - which is not that big already.

Heavy attack to gap closer double hit is still pretty strong and doesn’t have anything to do with the damage multiplier. For builds without a ranged cc gap closers will still be useful. I will like still run a gap closer on my stam sorc. Don’t get me wrong though, I think it’s a poor decision nerf and completely unneeded. And I play as a ranged magblade a lot of the time too. It’s so freakin easy to evade crit charge.

Yeah I know you disagree with the change.
And I believe that you will try to keep it in your build.
But let's see in 2 weeks after the DLC comes if you still keep the gap closer.
As there will be more better alternatives to keep there -
Any of them will be better than Stampede: Dark Exchange, Calltrops, Rapids, Rune Cage, Streak

Mannix1958

brandonv516 wrote: »

The snare is a huge issue and even more of an issue when it happens while in Mist Form.

Mist form...now there is a overpowered ability

Mannix1958

Waffennacht wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Gap closers were never OP. I’ve never died to anyone or looked at any of my death recaps and been like damn those pesky gap closers. Maybe people should stop running away in plane sight or learn how los and kite properly if they need to retreat. If someone turns tail and runs I’m prob gonna gap close them. Well whatever just makes it that much easier to keep working on 1vX. You do realize role dodge stamina builds will have a field day with this. There’s going to be so many tears about joe gap closers don’t do enough damage anymore. So whoever cried for this nerf, nice job.

This is the only game where range is not a viable advantage/or strategy, gap closers are the reason for this.

The fact is gap closers completely negate a whole form of gameplay makes them OP.

Now, they are a tool as they always should have been.

Totally wrong..just a Bow ganker who cried.

ecru

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

destroying crit rush damage without reducing its cost makes it absolutely unviable to use.

They are not balancing gapclosers, they are destroying them.

Are you gonna dps with your axes from 30m now?

Ragnarock41

ecru wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

destroying crit rush damage without reducing its cost makes it absolutely unviable to use.

They are not balancing gapclosers, they are destroying them.

Are you gonna dps with your axes from 30m now?

everybody will be using speed pots.

ak_pvp

Waffennacht wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Gap closers were never OP. I’ve never died to anyone or looked at any of my death recaps and been like damn those pesky gap closers. Maybe people should stop running away in plane sight or learn how los and kite properly if they need to retreat. If someone turns tail and runs I’m prob gonna gap close them. Well whatever just makes it that much easier to keep working on 1vX. You do realize role dodge stamina builds will have a field day with this. There’s going to be so many tears about joe gap closers don’t do enough damage anymore. So whoever cried for this nerf, nice job.

This is the only game where range is not a viable advantage/or strategy, gap closers are the reason for this.

The fact is gap closers completely negate a whole form of gameplay makes them OP.

Now, they are a tool as they always should have been.

They don't though. A good ranged build can shut down many builds, since some don't use gapclosers altogether. And for those that do, ranged has the advantage of attacking and LOSing carefully as to not get gapclosed at all, being ranged at all allows for them to more easily reach/stay near the LOS, or outrange easier. Even more so in an Xv1/ XvX situation where you are less likely to get focused vs a melee build.

Mannix1958

I don't think the nerf is the fix needed. Several of the bow abilities should have been buffed in distance imho.

Emmagoldman

@Emma_Overload i agree in full!!! Let it be known that the council of Emmas have spoken!

Zer0oo

Gap closer are op: A spam-able skill that always brings you into melee range without counterplay is extremely strong. Even stronger if you consider that Zos said that they want to make melee hit harder since you have to say a melee range but with on bottom you are always in melee range. As for a range dd is is not possible to kite a melee dd to make more use out of your range damage skills if your opponent can just any time use a skill that negates your kiting part.

The problem is gap closer are spam-able skills without counterplay and to top it off they also give you an unpurge able snare which allows players to lock you up if they just spam gap closers on you so the rest of the zerg can catch up.

Vapirko

Zer0oo wrote: »

Gap closer are op: A spam-able skill that always brings you into melee range without counterplay is extremely strong. Even stronger if you consider that Zos said that they want to make melee hit harder since you have to say a melee range but with on bottom you are always in melee range. As for a range dd is is not possible to kite a melee dd to make more use out of your range damage skills if your opponent can just any time use a skill that negates your kiting part.

The problem is gap closer are spam-able skills without counterplay and to top it off they also give you an unpurge able snare which allows players to lock you up if they just spam gap closers on you so the rest of the zerg can catch up.

Someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Counterplay includes dodge roll, any cc, cloak if you’re a NB, moving through the gap closer. There’s only no counter if you don’t know how to play. Crit charge is crazy easy to avoid. The NB gap closer could stand to Ben nerfed a little, the Templar gap closer was part of what pathetic burst magplars have.

Vapirko

Didgerion wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Gap closer should be strong! As you use this skill only once - to open the fight, and that's all about it! It stays for the entire duration of the fight unused after that - taking one slot on your bar!

Lots of strong builds gave up on the "over-performing" gap closer already!

With this nerf there won't be gap closers on solo builds anymore.

Oh ZERGS will still continue to spam it - as the damage was never the reason why it is used there.

They’ll still be strong. Again having played both ranged mag builds and melee buillds I’ve never once thought they were OP. Post update 17 though I see myself using the snare morph over the damage morph.

It won't be powerful anymore - you better replace the gap closer with Retreating Maneuver for example - as it will help you to gap close and to retreat if needed!
Or 2H Carve skill with a Master Weapon - that skill will be OP with AOE cap removal.

The idea is that gap closer is already a skill that is not on the bars of most strong builds. It is still used in some specialized builds like @JackDaniell 's one. And this nerf just does one thing - it kills the builds variety - which is not that big already.

Heavy attack to gap closer double hit is still pretty strong and doesn’t have anything to do with the damage multiplier. For builds without a ranged cc gap closers will still be useful. I will like still run a gap closer on my stam sorc. Don’t get me wrong though, I think it’s a poor decision nerf and completely unneeded. And I play as a ranged magblade a lot of the time too. It’s so freakin easy to evade crit charge.

Yeah I know you disagree with the change.
And I believe that you will try to keep it in your build.
But let's see in 2 weeks after the DLC comes if you still keep the gap closer.
As there will be more better alternatives to keep there -
Any of them will be better than Stampede: Dark Exchange, Calltrops, Rapids, Rune Cage, Streak

That’s why I’m finishing up my dw stamplar right now. Once jabs comes in all shiny and new all these complainers will wish we could go back to gap closers

Zer0oo

Vapirko wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Gap closer are op: A spam-able skill that always brings you into melee range without counterplay is extremely strong. Even stronger if you consider that Zos said that they want to make melee hit harder since you have to say a melee range but with on bottom you are always in melee range. As for a range dd is is not possible to kite a melee dd to make more use out of your range damage skills if your opponent can just any time use a skill that negates your kiting part.

The problem is gap closer are spam-able skills without counterplay and to top it off they also give you an unpurge able snare which allows players to lock you up if they just spam gap closers on you so the rest of the zerg can catch up.

Someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Counterplay includes dodge roll, any cc, cloak if you’re a NB, moving through the gap closer. There’s only no counter if you don’t know how to play. Crit charge is crazy easy to avoid. The NB gap closer could stand to Ben nerfed a little, the Templar gap closer was part of what pathetic burst magplars have.

You only can dodge the damage part but that does not change that you still get very easy in melee range.

But nice that you think you need to insult me because your argument sucks and you seem to think it is the damage potion of gap closer that make them op.

Also l2p mag templer are insanely strong this patch and have been since IC launch and no you do not need the buggy templer gapcloser for your burst as templer.

Vapirko

Zer0oo wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Gap closer are op: A spam-able skill that always brings you into melee range without counterplay is extremely strong. Even stronger if you consider that Zos said that they want to make melee hit harder since you have to say a melee range but with on bottom you are always in melee range. As for a range dd is is not possible to kite a melee dd to make more use out of your range damage skills if your opponent can just any time use a skill that negates your kiting part.

The problem is gap closer are spam-able skills without counterplay and to top it off they also give you an unpurge able snare which allows players to lock you up if they just spam gap closers on you so the rest of the zerg can catch up.

Someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Counterplay includes dodge roll, any cc, cloak if you’re a NB, moving through the gap closer. There’s only no counter if you don’t know how to play. Crit charge is crazy easy to avoid. The NB gap closer could stand to Ben nerfed a little, the Templar gap closer was part of what pathetic burst magplars have.

You only can dodge the damage part but that does not change that you still get very easy in melee range.

But nice that you think you need to insult me because your argument sucks and you seem to think it is the damage potion of gap closer that make them op.

Also l2p mag templer are insanely strong this patch and have been since IC launch and no you do not need the buggy templer gapcloser for your burst as templer.

Yikes dude, so if the damage portion isn’t what’s makes them OP then why do they need a damage nerf? Why aren’t you calling for a range nerf???? L2p and figure out how to use your class skills so that you’re not dying to gap closers.

ak_pvp

Zer0oo wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Gap closer are op: A spam-able skill that always brings you into melee range without counterplay is extremely strong. Even stronger if you consider that Zos said that they want to make melee hit harder since you have to say a melee range but with on bottom you are always in melee range. As for a range dd is is not possible to kite a melee dd to make more use out of your range damage skills if your opponent can just any time use a skill that negates your kiting part.

The problem is gap closer are spam-able skills without counterplay and to top it off they also give you an unpurge able snare which allows players to lock you up if they just spam gap closers on you so the rest of the zerg can catch up.

Someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Counterplay includes dodge roll, any cc, cloak if you’re a NB, moving through the gap closer. There’s only no counter if you don’t know how to play. Crit charge is crazy easy to avoid. The NB gap closer could stand to Ben nerfed a little, the Templar gap closer was part of what pathetic burst magplars have.

You only can dodge the damage part but that does not change that you still get very easy in melee range.

But nice that you think you need to insult me because your argument sucks and you seem to think it is the damage potion of gap closer that make them op.

Also l2p mag templer are insanely strong this patch and have been since IC launch and no you do not need the buggy templer gapcloser for your burst as templer.

Magplar if you are playing OW solo is pretty awful. No class stun/CC that actually is worth running. I mean, javelin away from them? The damage is pretty decent since POTL/Purifying was buffed, but low mobility, befoul+defile meta and the bad CC makes templar eh. I mean purge and sustain is pretty good, but its not really strong.

Zer0oo

Vapirko wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Gap closer are op: A spam-able skill that always brings you into melee range without counterplay is extremely strong. Even stronger if you consider that Zos said that they want to make melee hit harder since you have to say a melee range but with on bottom you are always in melee range. As for a range dd is is not possible to kite a melee dd to make more use out of your range damage skills if your opponent can just any time use a skill that negates your kiting part.

The problem is gap closer are spam-able skills without counterplay and to top it off they also give you an unpurge able snare which allows players to lock you up if they just spam gap closers on you so the rest of the zerg can catch up.

Someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Counterplay includes dodge roll, any cc, cloak if you’re a NB, moving through the gap closer. There’s only no counter if you don’t know how to play. Crit charge is crazy easy to avoid. The NB gap closer could stand to Ben nerfed a little, the Templar gap closer was part of what pathetic burst magplars have.

You only can dodge the damage part but that does not change that you still get very easy in melee range.

But nice that you think you need to insult me because your argument sucks and you seem to think it is the damage potion of gap closer that make them op.

Also l2p mag templer are insanely strong this patch and have been since IC launch and no you do not need the buggy templer gapcloser for your burst as templer.

Yikes dude, so if the damage portion isn’t what’s makes them OP then why do they need a damage nerf? Why aren’t you calling for a range nerf???? L2p and figure out how to use your class skills so that you’re not dying to gap closers.

Little aggressive if someone does not agree with you?

I never said the damage nerf was the best thing. I said what makes gap closer op is the fact to you can always use it to get into melee range without much of a counter play. I don't think any other game allows a skill that can always be used to get into melee range and that even with secondary effects like damage, snares dots, cc.....

You can not avoid in this game that someone gets into melee range if he uses gap closes in this game independent of how you use your skills.

TequilaFire

I for one am just tired of waking up everyday to find something from my toolkit has been altered/nerfed and finding another friend has quit the game.

coop500

I'm just bummed they nerfed werewolves but didn't nerf all gap closers, just most.

tplink3r1

Qwazz wrote: »

A gap closer should do just that.
These abilities should simply move the casters character.
There shouldn't be any adverse effects attached aside from damage to the target.

Please, make sure to remove any bonus effects from Streak too.

Lynx7386

I can see and understand both sides of the argument.

I'll use my very outdated experiences with World of Warcraft as a comparison: In that game, you'd have a matchup between a warrior and a mage. The mage would be very squishy and easily killed if the warrior could stay in melee range. The warrior, on the other hand, was susceptible to frost crowd control/slowing effects. On the mage's end, you'd want to keep the warrior slowed and stay as far away as possible while pelting him with spells. On the warrior's end, you'd want to time your charges for when the mage's frost nova/blink were on cooldown so that you could charge in and get a few good hits in. If the warrior got close like that, frost nova and blink were the mage's only ways to escape quickly before getting smeared.

Everything there was balanced by cooldowns. Warrior charge was on cooldown, as well as their ability that removed crowd control effects. Mage's blink, frost nova, etc. were on cooldowns. It was all a battle of timing and attrition.

In ESO, the main issue we have is that everything is not limited by cooldowns but rather by CC immunity durations and resource management. A sorc doesnt have a cooldown on streak, and can use it as many times as quickly as magicka will allow. A melee character doesnt have a cooldown on critical rush, just a limit on his stamina pool.

Then we had the issue back at launch where, due to movement and server lag, gap closers would often miss the target entirely. You'd rush the enemy, and by the time the animation played out they were well out of melee range again. That's why the snares were added in the first place.


I think the biggest issue here is that ESO doesnt like cooldowns. Cooldowns are an incredibly useful way to balance these types of engagements, but the combat design here has always been "No cooldowns, just resources", and that makes it far more difficult to achieve any kind of 1v1 balance.

Ruckly

I'm completely lost. Ranged characters have an overlapping 28m+ engagement range. Melee have a 5mish engagement range. When a melee character uses a gap closer their whole character moves which is pretty hard to miss. If someone uses snipe that is pretty easy to miss. Big orc flying through air easy to see. Little arrow flying through air among everything else going on very easy to never notice it. Big orc flying through air at target very easy to prep a single target heal. Little arrow flying through air only cue is health bar. Big orc flying through air straight at you pretty easy to dodge roll they hit nothing and are within many overlapping 28m engagement ranges. Little arrow flying at you among everything else going on very easy to miss. And a gap closer is op because? A melee gank?

This doesn't affect me at all I don't use them. The expedition from blade cloak imo is more useful. When Zaan is implemented blade cloak + undodgeable stun + a real snare will be as common as yarn balls in a khajiit cub daycare.

Rohamad_Ali

We are all getting a nerf with this but its about time .

bardx86

Sixty5 wrote: »

The snare is there just to ensure that the ability lands.

The funny thing is that with Medium + Major and Minor Expedition, you can actually outrun a gap closer, which is pretty hilarious.

Why should it always automatically land? Thats silly. If i counter I shouldn't be hit. Let them land where I was. Also the issue is worse when facing multiple targets using gap closers. Its perma-snare and stupid.

Abysswarrior45

They should have just removed the guaranteed snare gap closers caused or better yet revert gap closers to how they were before they let people fly across empty space. Why was that changed again?

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Sixty5 wrote: »

The snare is there just to ensure that the ability lands.

The funny thing is that with Medium + Major and Minor Expedition, you can actually outrun a gap closer, which is pretty hilarious.

Good. The ability DOESNT need to land. All gap closers should do is close the gap. The gap between you and where your target WAS.

Dodgerolling, running out of range, and moving away are all good counters to gap closers.

Completely agree with @JackDaniell here. Remove the snare. Then gap closers are fixed. I don't need to land every gap closer. It shouldn't be a guarantee.

• Snare was a fix that no one wanted or asked for.
• Gap closer damage nerf was a "fix" that no one wanted or asked for.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Tetrafy wrote: »

Gap closers were hardly OP. Am I playing a diferrent game?

You are. The development team is completely removed from how their playerbase actually feels about balance.

Radiance

I don't see them as being OP at all but rather Leveling the playing field for Melee Focused people... The benefit of Ranged attacks is being able to attack from a distance, Melee doesn't have that... Ranged would be OP without a gap closer, With snares and knockbacks, Melee would be dropped before they even touched you. At the risk of sounding like a cry-baby That's literally not fair.

Consider the fact that all Roles/Playstyles have their Advantages and weaknesses in certain situations. If you nobody had any, it would get really boring and even more unbalanced. It is up to you to decide which of those Advantages and weaknesses you can best cope with...

Some people wont be happy until there's a God Class.

Im_MegaDeath

As someone who stacks nothing but DMG my critrush hits a target dummy for 17,200 so I can see why they want a dmg nerf. but the reason behind it is poor and we all know the snares are the real issue here.

Wrobel enjoys his job guys 100%

Edit: Also nerfing the skill is a poor way to do this since my gear nor my skill are why I hit this dmg. its the CP system that needs a nerf

Yolokin_Swagonborn

I have a poll on the PTS here about gap closers if you want to make your opinion known to the development team. I think sometimes they just don't understand how unpopular some of their balance changes are so poll form is always helpful.

Killset

Waffennacht wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Gap closers were never OP. I’ve never died to anyone or looked at any of my death recaps and been like damn those pesky gap closers. Maybe people should stop running away in plane sight or learn how los and kite properly if they need to retreat. If someone turns tail and runs I’m prob gonna gap close them. Well whatever just makes it that much easier to keep working on 1vX. You do realize role dodge stamina builds will have a field day with this. There’s going to be so many tears about joe gap closers don’t do enough damage anymore. So whoever cried for this nerf, nice job.

This is the only game where range is not a viable advantage/or strategy, gap closers are the reason for this.

The fact is gap closers completely negate a whole form of gameplay makes them OP.

Now, they are a tool as they always should have been.

That’s fine. Then ranged attacks should do considerably less damage.