Step 1: Test, Step 2: QQ. Not the other way around.

Alcast

Everyone is loosing their minds, but did someone test the changes yet? No, because the PTS is not even up. Like always, people start QQing before they even test things and that leads to MORE unnecessary nerfs. Once the stuff that ppl QQed about gets a nerf, people realize its weak (it always was ppl just did not test) and then they go to the forum AGAIN and QQ for buffs. /facepalm

Here a simple guide:
Step 1. QQ
Step 2. Test
Step 1. Test
Step 2. QQ

ZOS repeatedly said that they will take a look at overall class balance in the next upcoming Expansion. Not saying it will be balanced (because the main combat lead dev has a very limited understanding of the game), but that is the reason why you do not see a lot of changes.

Turelus

But... but... RIP DK!

Remember when everyone left the game because Morrowind "KILLED" Templar, no one plays Templars any more Alcast, NO ONE! There are LITERALLY no Templars in ESO any more because of Morrowind.

Now the same will be true of DK!

Edit for adding troll face because otherwise I know someone will take this seriously.

Sixty5

But 7 seconds of being able to to cast a skill that uses off resource for the low low price of getting stunned and set of balance is so OP!!!

Sorc obviously needs to have all their damage halved to compensate.

Trashs1

Alcast wrote: »

Everyone is loosing their minds, but did someone test the changes yet? No, because the PTS is not even up. Like always, people start QQing before they even test things and that leads to MORE unnecessary nerfs. Once the stuff that ppl QQed about gets a nerf, people realize its weak (it always was ppl just did not test) and then they go to the forum AGAIN and QQ for buffs. /facepalm

Here a simple guide:
Step 1. QQ
Step 2. Test
Step 1. Test
Step 2. QQ

ZOS repeatedly said that they will take a look at overall class balance in the next upcoming Expansion. Not saying it will be balanced (because the main combat lead dev has a very limited understanding of the game), but that is the reason why you do not see a lot of changes.

thats actually... at least for me and my knowledgebase... the first really usefull alcast guide since a year xD

thx for that! ppl might hear on your advice since u are such a great influencer here

Vaoh

I really hope there’s a lot of feedback for this PTS. You PC ppl gotta test a lot and provide the numbers for ZOS to see.

Plus if I was a Mag DK main I would probably not be too happy rn lol.

Alcast

Vaoh wrote: »

I really hope there’s a lot of feedback for this PTS. You PC ppl gotta test a lot and provide the numbers for ZOS to see.

Plus if I was a Mag DK main I would probably not be too happy rn lol.

Most of those changes are just bandaiding because of the Off balance changes. If off balance changes had not affected any class there would prolly be ZERO changes to any of the classes.

Other than that its mostly "bugfixes"

I also do hate the current "balance", Heavy Attacks are boring af, both on mag and stam.

Turelus wrote: »

But... but... RIP DK!

Remember when everyone left the game because Morrowind "KILLED" Templar, no one plays Templars any more Alcast, NO ONE! There are LITERALLY no Templars in ESO any more because of Morrowind.

Now the same will be true of DK!

Edit for adding troll face because otherwise I know someone will take this seriously.

gonna go the save route here and also add a troll face

Beardimus

Spot on, always the way tho with forums.

The chasing of meta doesn't help. People flock to one setup, it changes, there's uproar, then they flock another way.

Cinbri

Turelus wrote: »

But... but... RIP DK!

Remember when everyone left the game because Morrowind "KILLED" Templar, no one plays Templars any more Alcast, NO ONE! There are LITERALLY no Templars in ESO any more because of Morrowind.

Now the same will be true of DK!

Edit for adding troll face because otherwise I know someone will take this seriously.

But...but did you missed funeral of Templar!!??
Welp... me too

Feanor

Well...we all can still remember how well the last big combat balance update worked out. Besides, Chapter 2 is probably 4 to 6 months away. Is it acceptable to have NBs ruling all for that time just because the combat team thinks they need even more buffs?

Hamburglarjones

Kind of hard to test stuff when the stuff on the PTS is bugged anyways

Feanor wrote: »

Well...we all can still remember how well the last big combat balance update worked out. Besides, Chapter 2 is probably 4 to 6 months away. Is it acceptable to have NBs ruling all for that time just because the combat team thinks they need even more buffs?

Yeah mate, it's okay to push needed balance off a couple more months, sure what's the worst that could happen?

Turelus

Cinbri wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

But... but... RIP DK!

Remember when everyone left the game because Morrowind "KILLED" Templar, no one plays Templars any more Alcast, NO ONE! There are LITERALLY no Templars in ESO any more because of Morrowind.

Now the same will be true of DK!

Edit for adding troll face because otherwise I know someone will take this seriously.

But...but did you missed funeral of Templar!!??
Welp... me too

Deltia made a video of it for me.

pattyLtd

This is true of course and often it's not as bad as it seems on paper but i i do wonder how the x seconds cooldowns on skills will feel in game.

Combat already doesn't feel that fast too me as it once did.
But we'll see when it hits live. The chances of them responding to our "QQ'ing" are very slim anyway.

I don't know what the exact change is tbh i don't read the combat changes in patch notes anymore.
All these "balance" changes are irrelevant without performance being improved.

Morgul667

True !

Zinaroth

Turelus wrote: »

Remember when the game KILLED Stamplar, no one plays Stamplar any more, NO ONE! There are LITERALLY no Stamplars in ESO any more.

Fixed that for you...

Masel

As i wrote in the Patch Notes thread:

You can find a similar comment as yours from me under most of the patch notes from earlier patches, but this time, I've already put in a lot of testing as in how the lack of off-balance affects magicka DKs in PvE and PvE raid environments in general.

I mean it can have an advantage that heavy attacks will just be less benficial when compared to light attack rotation with added recovery. Before heavy attacks where very powerful because of off-balance, now this might lead to an increased utilisation of light attack rotations.

That's a positive aspect, but there are also a lot of negative ones:

Magicka NBs have the highest ranged DPS at the moment, and sorcerers were needed because of off-balance. When you compare a magicka DK to a stamina DK, there's just no reason to run a Magicka DK. Even after this off-balance nerf (and especially after it) stamina DKs will just deal higher damage and remain overall superior.

Faulgor

Alcast wrote: »

ZOS repeatedly said that they will take a look at overall class balance in the next upcoming Expansion.

My issue is that they say this every time. It's always the "next update".

For example, magicka Warden DPS has been lackluster since Morrowind beta almost a year ago. It wasn't addressed at Morrowind release, in HotR, in CWC, or now in Dragon Bones.

So when can we expect changes? Is it only once a year with each new chapter? I haven't seen ZOS make any statement like that tbh.

cazlonb16_ESO

To be fair, I rarely see Templars anymore other than zerg-healbots in Vivec PC-EU. Finishing the kill quest is a pita unless there are some zergballs rolling around.

So that funeral may have not been entirely premature.

Alcast

Faulgor wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZOS repeatedly said that they will take a look at overall class balance in the next upcoming Expansion.

My issue is that they say this every time. It's always the "next update".

For example, magicka Warden DPS has been lackluster since Morrowind beta almost a year ago. It wasn't addressed at Morrowind release, in HotR, in CWC, or now in Dragon Bones.

So when can we expect changes? Is it only once a year with each new chapter? I haven't seen ZOS make any statement like that tbh.

Well that is what you think (and yes it is still worse than other setups) but ZOS actually addressed the "issue". They made changes to the class etc, but like always it was obviously not enough hehe

Pr0Skygon

The problem is not about QQ or not, but just... WHY? Why the hell did they even do this? Nobody asked for this (except for synergy being off from global cooldown, but then they even manage to screwed it up).
You know what we asked for? No no, except nerfing sorc and heavy armor, but buff everything else! Time and time again ZOS has proved to us that nerfing heavy armor will not change the PvP meta, yet they do way more harm on the PvE tanking side. There's hardly any tank left, because it's so boring to play one. Everyone asks for buffing magDK and magTemplar, so they managed to make them even harder and more limited to play? Recovery was fine, so they just decided to break it so we can all enter the heavy attack era? I mean who actually thought these are good ideas? @ZOS_Wrobel ? Was that you? Goddammit, I'm so pissed right now. I need to put a troll face in There you go.

Marabornwingrion

Cinbri wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

But... but... RIP DK!

Remember when everyone left the game because Morrowind "KILLED" Templar, no one plays Templars any more Alcast, NO ONE! There are LITERALLY no Templars in ESO any more because of Morrowind.

Now the same will be true of DK!

Edit for adding troll face because otherwise I know someone will take this seriously.

But...but did you missed funeral of Templar!!??
Welp... me too

I hope Deltia will make a video "Funeral of DK" so I can laugh my a** off while drinking morning coffee.

ZunaRoath

Thank Kyne someone posts a guide for people who don't seem to understand how it works! Thanks Alcast!

Bet one day they QQ about something that when they test they actually like so their QQ was for abolutely nothing. So typical.

Rjizzle09

Eh idk what's the point of waiting to test anymore. They almost NEVER listen to the feedback we give them cause it goes against their visions. I don't just play this MMO so I'm looking at this from a broader spectrum. Mmos these days have a habit of not listening to it's player base.

No matter what people say we play this game tons of times more than them so we KNOW what should be going on. They've been saying next patch as far as I can remember. Morrowind killed combat in this game and im sorry, but it doesn't take testing or a genius to read and make logical assumptions that's like basic reading. That's like reading a passage that says water is blue. Who's seriously gonna go test to see if it's blue? It's pretty cut and dried right there in the statement.

It's the same with this change for mag dk. I can literally just read this I don't have to test this yet to know that it's bad. You're a vet you know how this stuff goes. I think the community backlash is WELL warranted considering the massive amount of times we have tried to tell them how to balance this game.

Everyone knows the answer. Make pve and PvP SEPARATE. They literally said on eso live that balancing the two separately is too hard for them. Wtf? Like where is my lol button for that comment. It wasn't even wrobel that said that either which is even more funny.

Not saying you aren't correct in your thinking cause yeah you should test first, but not everyone needs to test things to comprehend what's in front of them. Some people can read things and be 100% spot on or very close to it. Why do you think people qq first and not test? It's because we all literally know there is no point from us.

Look at Zaan. There are 1000 YouTube videos saying that it's too strong soooooooo it got a nerf. That seems to be the only way to get things fixed these days. I don't see a 1000 videos explaining why Dragon knights need a rework do you? Nope. People only put up videos about things they themselves think is important.

I can understand your logic but I also definitely understand the feelings of the community on this one. No amount of testing will fix this game if it's own creators won't listen. We all know they don't play this game hardly. At least I hope they don't. If they actually played this game and seriously still think a lot of these changes are ok then there lies the problem.

Final fantasy 14 has literally perfected this balance thing. PvP and pve are separate beings. There is never a case where one is balanced against the other and in turn you never see forums like these. I can't honestly remember the last time a qq thread was made there. Eso tries to be so different that it hurts the game, instead of taking from other games even just a little.

Turelus

ZunaRoath wrote: »

Thank Kyne someone posts a guide for people who don't seem to understand how it works! Thanks Alcast!

Bet one day they QQ about something that when they test they actually like so their QQ was for abolutely nothing. So typical.

This happened a lot with Morrowind. Seeing people flip out and rage, then a week after launch telling others to "git gud" and "L2P" over the same issues.

There were people leaving and uninstalling the game before even testing (because limited beta/NDA) who a month or two later had to come back looking rather sheepish.

I fully understand peoples dislike for changes, we've all seen them hit our favourite characters by this point, but come on... every. bloody. update.

FlamingBeard

Alcast wrote: »

Everyone is loosing their minds, but did someone test the changes yet? No, because the PTS is not even up. Like always, people start QQing before they even test things and that leads to MORE unnecessary nerfs. Once the stuff that ppl QQed about gets a nerf, people realize its weak (it always was ppl just did not test) and then they go to the forum AGAIN and QQ for buffs. /facepalm

Here a simple guide:
Step 1. QQ
Step 2. Test
Step 1. Test
Step 2. QQ

ZOS repeatedly said that they will take a look at overall class balance in the next upcoming Expansion. Not saying it will be balanced (because the main combat lead dev has a very limited understanding of the game), but that is the reason why you do not see a lot of changes.

Oh BOY!

ZOS is finally magically going to fix mechanics and skills that they clearly have no clue about balancing?!

...in 4 months? Oh, I see.

Do you see the problem with destroying a skill or mechanic and then saying you'll fix it NEXT update before THIS update is even out?

That is the worst balance development I've heard of in a while. And this isn't the first instance of this issue.

This kind of thing is EXACTLY why ZOS needs to put more resources into game balance and do it every month, because their current quality control is too inconsistent and off-track with even their own vision of the game that it's hard to say if it will ever reach a level of enjoyable gameplay where most people are happy with it anymore.

RIP

Epicasballs

The highest praise the devs have received since Morrowind was due to off balance being bugged on PTS and the hope it gave to players frustrated with the current heavy attack meta. This speaks volumes for how the community feels about the state of PvE right now. Combat is boring. If ZOS ran with the bugged off balance and nerfed the bonus heavy attack damage and exploiter passive I think the community would still be happy.

I main a magDK, or used to I should say, so the change to off balance is particularly annoying. Currently I can still play my magDK in 4 mans if I run with a magSorc and in trials when I get the ok from the group but without off balance it's really very rough. Currently I can get 41-43k dps on a dummy without any cheese doing my own lightning wall with ok'ish sustain running bi-stat food. I tested flame wall with 1 cost reduction glyph, no exploiter, and witchmothers potent brew using a Molten Whip rotation and had severe sustain issues pulling only 33-34k dps... a 10k dps loss and worse sustain. My DK is not even a consideration for any content anymore.

I get 43k dps with my magblade currently and tested flame wall, no exploiter and changed nothing else about my build and dropped to 40k dps with no sustain issues either way... these changes have the most severe impact on DK's. I think some of the QQ'ing is warranted here at least from the community of frustrated magDK's who haven't quit since Morrowind was released.

Alcast

Turelus wrote: »

ZunaRoath wrote: »

Thank Kyne someone posts a guide for people who don't seem to understand how it works! Thanks Alcast!

Bet one day they QQ about something that when they test they actually like so their QQ was for abolutely nothing. So typical.

This happened a lot with Morrowind. Seeing people flip out and rage, then a week after launch telling others to "git gud" and "L2P" over the same issues.

There were people leaving and uninstalling the game before even testing (because limited beta/NDA) who a month or two later had to come back looking rather sheepish.

I fully understand peoples dislike for changes, we've all seen them hit our favourite characters by this point, but come on... every. bloody. update.

Demion

Here a simple guide:
Step 1. QQ
Step 2. Test
Step 1. Test
Step 2. QQ

Easy step everyone should be able for follow

actosh

Alcast is right, but ZOS is pushing Class Balance all the time from one patch to another.
I think they will start balancing classes after they finished their "idea that each class tree should be structured like warden to a certain extent"". When this patch drops....oh boy ^^

Ladislao

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

The problem is not about QQ or not, but just... WHY? Why the hell did they even do this? Nobody asked for this (except for synergy being off from global cooldown, but then they even manage to screwed it up).
You know what we asked for? No no, except nerfing sorc and heavy armor, but buff everything else! Time and time again ZOS has proved to us that nerfing heavy armor will not change the PvP meta, yet they do way more harm on the PvE tanking side. There's hardly any tank left, because it's so boring to play one. Everyone asks for buffing magDK and magTemplar, so they managed to make them even harder and more limited to play? Recovery was fine, so they just decided to break it so we can all enter the heavy attack era? I mean who actually thought these are good ideas? @ZOS_Wrobel ? Was that you? Goddammit, I'm so pissed right now. I need to put a troll face in There you go.

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

Eh idk what's the point of waiting to test anymore. They almost NEVER listen to the feedback we give them cause it goes against their visions. I don't just play this MMO so I'm looking at this from a broader spectrum. Mmos these days have a habit of not listening to it's player base.

No matter what people say we play this game tons of times more than them so we KNOW what should be going on. They've been saying next patch as far as I can remember. Morrowind killed combat in this game and im sorry, but it doesn't take testing or a genius to read and make logical assumptions that's like basic reading. That's like reading a passage that says water is blue. Who's seriously gonna go test to see if it's blue? It's pretty cut and dried right there in the statement.

You guys clearly do not understand what it means to listen. To listen is to take into account the proposals and analyze them taking into account the possibilities for implementation. But not the blind introduction of changes in the game only because the "majority" demands it.

Do you feel the difference?

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

Everyone knows the answer. Make pve and PvP SEPARATE. They literally said on eso live that balancing the two separately is too hard for them. Wtf? Like where is my lol button for that comment. It wasn't even wrobel that said that either which is even more funny.

I totally disagree with. So what's now? You can call me a bad player or a member of the minority, but this does not negate the fact of substitution of concepts. Not everyone thinks like you. Deal with it.

Bevik

They can just shorten the heavy attacks and that will solve the slow fights and the sustain problems also. Easy.

Trashs1

actosh wrote: »

Alcast is right, but ZOS is pushing Class Balance all the time from one patch to another.
I think they will start balancing classes after they finished their "idea that each class tree should be structured like warden to a certain extent"". When this patch drops....oh boy ^^

oh boy this forum will be floten of salty tears