Step 1: Test, Step 2: QQ. Not the other way around.

ZunaRoath

Turelus wrote: »

ZunaRoath wrote: »

Thank Kyne someone posts a guide for people who don't seem to understand how it works! Thanks Alcast!

Bet one day they QQ about something that when they test they actually like so their QQ was for abolutely nothing. So typical.

This happened a lot with Morrowind. Seeing people flip out and rage, then a week after launch telling others to "git gud" and "L2P" over the same issues.

There were people leaving and uninstalling the game before even testing (because limited beta/NDA) who a month or two later had to come back looking rather sheepish.

I fully understand peoples dislike for changes, we've all seen them hit our favourite characters by this point, but come on... every. bloody. update.

Yeah, always the same.

Dedricus

The reason people have come to complain BEFORE testing something is because Zenimax is falling into a habit of the WoW Dev Team. They get good feedback but do little to nothing about it. Then you have the white knights saying "oh it's just beta." Or "oh it's ptr, just test it."

It's complete crap. They're not going to do anything about broken classes, at least not at the point when they get the feedback. As wrobel said on stream, it gets pushed to the "next patch", where a whole new can of worms is present.

actosh

Best part on this forum, is when pts week 1 beginns, stuff is oviously broken and op as ***, and ppl start making builds based on that. When it gets fixed a week later people cry like *** and pretend the skills were totally balanced ^^

FlamingBeard

actosh wrote: »

Best part on this forum, is when pts week 1 beginns, stuff is oviously broken and op as ***, and ppl start making builds based on that. When it gets fixed a week later people cry like *** and pretend the skills were totally balanced ^^

Power Lash was balanced before the Off-Balance change that didn't need to happen.

Then, they nerfed it because of their undesired Off-Balance change.

The Off-Balance change is yet ANOTHER THING TO WORK DIFFERENTLY IN PvP THAN PvE.

Decide, ZOS. Do you want to balance PvE and PvP together or not? DECIDE

Zer0oo

1. Read patch notes
2. bash my head against a wall
3. trying to test someone thing on pts but pts is down, changes not yet on there or simply bugged
4. go back to step 2 (only continue if you already have brain damage from step 2)
5. make fun of the devs in guild chat
6. go back to test what is working on pts
7. QQ on the forum and trying to smile in the hope this never goes live
8. changes go live in an utterly broken form (why did i even bother to test something?)

Do not get me wrong each patch has something really good but most of the time they keep introducing something absolutely idiotic(most of the time it is the combat/"balance" changes). This patch we get more storage and the change to nb assassin will is really nice.
BUT we also get some broken stuff that will take the next 2-3 patches to fix with an lazy band-aid-fix(just look at Proc sets, morrowind-sustain-slaughter,...).

Battlegounds:
They put battleground back to no cp because? Or will they change between no-cp and cp every patch? Did they think about that if they keep such a important feature for pvp no cp that they also have to balance pvp more around no-cp?. Did they take a look on proc sets in no-cp? How about the skills who only scale on max resources did they look at them? Did they think about that they adjusted everything around the max stats you have with 300cp?
Meanwhile the grouptool is still not fixed and will always bug out if many people use it. They have no ranking/matchmaking system. They put premades vs pugs. Premades are even trying to sync their queue to get put against each other because the group tool will put them against pugs .The game design of most game modes is about running around and not fighting.


Off balance changes is from a pve point of view idiotic and probably the most useless band-aid-fix for the morrowind sustain issues but this change also broke a lot of other things (flame lash, training dummies are useless now ,lightning heavy attack, removal of good group play by trying to keeping a goo up-time on off-balance ...).

And from a pvp point of view this change is utterly broken. We had perm spamming mag dk with flame lash, which was "fixed" for pvp now but now useless in pve. The worst part is that they do not see how much of a buff that is to heavy armor build who only sustain with heavy attacks(lot more resource, 70% more damage on them, cc on heavy attacks, permanent uptime on 10% more damage).

BTW crystal blast is still useless and now every sorc has to run master staff with flame reach in pvp now. Great job balance team. Meanwhile flame lash did get a cc and has more secondary effects than cfrag(heal, free cast, high damage ,cc, flame damage) and if you think about how many skill you can have it is normal that skills have more than on effect.

They keep ignoring some other issues like snares in pvp, utterly broken dps difference between stam and mag, utterly broken dps difference between classes, fps drops and BUGS, many bugs.

Autumnhart

Thanks for the tip.

Beardimus

I think the point of this thread has been missed... This is the non salty DONT QQ thread. Unsure if people got that!!!!

Nolic1

Alcast is right here until testing is done we do not know how bad or good these changes will be.

As for the devs do not know there game here is the thing. We play the game that the devs set the rules to and we the players will find ways of using things the devs did not think about they see the players using it in a way not intended by design of there rules they fix it. We the players have to adjust to these changes and find other ways to basicly break the game again they adjust to fix.

Most of these problems stim from the fact of the changes brought in from One Tamriel not Morrowind. Morrowinds changes where because of the data collected sense the release of One Tamriel to fix the things that they did not know who it would effect the game because of the changes made and to there rules. Look back and tell me that these changes where not needed and I can see why alot of changes where made. Half the stuff in the game is not working as intended by design and thats cause no one was or is using them on the intended design. Heck I expect alot more in the next update because by then they will have had time to collect more data not only from the player base here but the surveys they send out to get info from players and what they want to see changed along with many more things.

A mmo is ever changing cause of the intended design and when it changes its to make things work as intended not to make it work in favor of the player base but design or the rules set forth by the devs. Now trust me when I say not everyone will be happy with alot of the changes because it hurts how and why there build works but it also huts more then just them.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

Turelus wrote: »

But... but... RIP DK!

Remember when everyone left the game because Morrowind "KILLED" Templar, no one plays Templars any more Alcast, NO ONE! There are LITERALLY no Templars in ESO any more because of Morrowind.

Now the same will be true of DK!

Edit for adding troll face because otherwise I know someone will take this seriously.

That's odd, no more Templars. Because Templars are usually the easiest bounty to get in Cyrodiil. And I won't be able to hunt DKs either. Well I'd better start seeing more of those Warden bounties then lol

Takes-No-Prisoner

Beardimus wrote: »

I think the point of this thread has been missed... This is the non salty DONT QQ thread. Unsure if people got that!!!!

The path of least resistance is often the easier one to travel. Rather then self-educate and the L2P which is much harder.

Asardes

At the next PTS:

Patch 4.0.2 (Summerset Isle)

Base Game
Introducing spell crafting system to the game, allowing players to customize and use various spells

Class balance
We reduced the damage and healing done by class abilities by about 20% and increased their cost by 10%
Developer comments:

We nerfed class abilities into the ground in order to make crafted spells a meaningful choice for players

Qbiken

Asardes wrote: »

At the next PTS:

Patch 4.0.2 (Summerset Isle)

Base Game
Introducing spell crafting system to the game, allowing players to customize and use various spells

Class balance
We reduced the damage and healing done by class abilities by about 20% and increased their cost by 10%
Developer comments:

We nerfed class abilities into the ground in order to make crafted spells a meaningful choice for players

Will screenshot for future usage.

Pr0Skygon

Ladislao wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

The problem is not about QQ or not, but just... WHY? Why the hell did they even do this? Nobody asked for this (except for synergy being off from global cooldown, but then they even manage to screwed it up).
You know what we asked for? No no, except nerfing sorc and heavy armor, but buff everything else! Time and time again ZOS has proved to us that nerfing heavy armor will not change the PvP meta, yet they do way more harm on the PvE tanking side. There's hardly any tank left, because it's so boring to play one. Everyone asks for buffing magDK and magTemplar, so they managed to make them even harder and more limited to play? Recovery was fine, so they just decided to break it so we can all enter the heavy attack era? I mean who actually thought these are good ideas? @ZOS_Wrobel ? Was that you? Goddammit, I'm so pissed right now. I need to put a troll face in There you go.

e]

You guys clearly do not understand what it means to listen. To listen is to take into account the proposals and analyze them taking into account the possibilities for implementation. But not the blind introduction of changes in the game only because the "majority" demands it.

Do you feel the difference?/quote]


I think you missed my point entirely. I do not say "they should do exactly 100% what the majority is saying". No, that would become a mess.
What I said however, is at least listen to what the majority is saying, then consider it wisely, then tell everyone if ZOS think that problem is legit or not, and will there be any fix to that or not. I've had that type of conversation for almost every topic in ESO, but not for combat. Every time a patch coming in, everyone is like "will they really gonna do it this time?" Sad news is most of the time the answer is a straight no (I said most of the time, I don't say all the time, since we did get our non CP BGs, and finally Dragon Blood is no more a meme).
On the other hand, ZOS really loves to implement new and crazy ideas, that actually nobody asks for. "It's their game, they can do whatever they want with it". Well, we paid our hard earned cash for this game, so the least ZOS can do is listen to what their fans have to say, and please don't try to fix what isn't broken.

Pr0Skygon

Trashs1 wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Alcast is right, but ZOS is pushing Class Balance all the time from one patch to another.
I think they will start balancing classes after they finished their "idea that each class tree should be structured like warden to a certain extent"". When this patch drops....oh boy ^^

oh boy this forum will be floten of salty tears

Ladislao wrote: »

Pr0Skygon wrote: »

The problem is not about QQ or not, but just... WHY? Why the hell did they even do this? Nobody asked for this (except for synergy being off from global cooldown, but then they even manage to screwed it up).
You know what we asked for? No no, except nerfing sorc and heavy armor, but buff everything else! Time and time again ZOS has proved to us that nerfing heavy armor will not change the PvP meta, yet they do way more harm on the PvE tanking side. There's hardly any tank left, because it's so boring to play one. Everyone asks for buffing magDK and magTemplar, so they managed to make them even harder and more limited to play? Recovery was fine, so they just decided to break it so we can all enter the heavy attack era? I mean who actually thought these are good ideas? @ZOS_Wrobel ? Was that you? Goddammit, I'm so pissed right now. I need to put a troll face in There you go.

Rjizzle09 wrote: »

Eh idk what's the point of waiting to test anymore. They almost NEVER listen to the feedback we give them cause it goes against their visions. I don't just play this MMO so I'm looking at this from a broader spectrum. Mmos these days have a habit of not listening to it's player base.

No matter what people say we play this game tons of times more than them so we KNOW what should be going on. They've been saying next patch as far as I can remember. Morrowind killed combat in this game and im sorry, but it doesn't take testing or a genius to read and make logical assumptions that's like basic reading. That's like reading a passage that says water is blue. Who's seriously gonna go test to see if it's blue? It's pretty cut and dried right there in the statement.

You guys clearly do not understand what it means to listen. To listen is to take into account the proposals and analyze them taking into account the possibilities for implementation. But not the blind introduction of changes in the game only because the "majority" demands it.

Do you feel the difference?

I think you missed my point entirely. I do not say "they should do exactly 100% what the majority is saying". No, that would become a mess.
What I said however, is at least listen to what the majority is saying, then consider it wisely, then tell everyone if ZOS think that problem is legit or not, and will there be any fix to that or not. I've had that type of conversation for almost every topic in ESO, but not for combat. Every time a patch coming in, everyone is like "will they really gonna do it this time?" Sad news is most of the time the answer is a straight no (I said most of the time, I don't say all the time, since we did get our non CP BGs, and finally Dragon Blood is no more a meme).
On the other hand, ZOS really loves to implement new and crazy ideas, that actually nobody asks for. "It's their game, they can do whatever they want with it". Well, we paid our hard earned cash for this game, so the least ZOS can do is listen to what their fans have to say, and please don't try to fix what isn't broken.
Sorry for the double comment, I messed up the first one.

Pr0Skygon

Nolic1 wrote: »

Alcast is right here until testing is done we do not know how bad or good these changes will be.

As for the devs do not know there game here is the thing. We play the game that the devs set the rules to and we the players will find ways of using things the devs did not think about they see the players using it in a way not intended by design of there rules they fix it. We the players have to adjust to these changes and find other ways to basicly break the game again they adjust to fix.

Most of these problems stim from the fact of the changes brought in from One Tamriel not Morrowind. Morrowinds changes where because of the data collected sense the release of One Tamriel to fix the things that they did not know who it would effect the game because of the changes made and to there rules. Look back and tell me that these changes where not needed and I can see why alot of changes where made. Half the stuff in the game is not working as intended by design and thats cause no one was or is using them on the intended design. Heck I expect alot more in the next update because by then they will have had time to collect more data not only from the player base here but the surveys they send out to get info from players and what they want to see changed along with many more things.

A mmo is ever changing cause of the intended design and when it changes its to make things work as intended not to make it work in favor of the player base but design or the rules set forth by the devs. Now trust me when I say not everyone will be happy with alot of the changes because it hurts how and why there build works but it also huts more then just them.

Well let's just hope that Alcast will do the justice for us, because on paper only, these are very horrible decision and makes no sense at all.

TequilaFire

I just wish they would concentrate on fixing underlying bugs in existing mechanics before introducing major changes to combat mechanics rather than applying band-aids to make the new mechanics work.

Drakkdjinn

Forgot a step: publisher tests own game before dumping on playerbase. It's ok tho OP, ZoS forgets every patch.

Free labor ftw.

Rainraven

Beardimus wrote: »

I think the point of this thread has been missed... This is the non salty DONT QQ thread. Unsure if people got that!!!!

Being patronizing counts as at least a little salty. And it does set a tone. What response would you have predicted? I'm genuinely curious.

FlamingBeard

Alcast, I like your videos, but you can't seriously be telling players to wait 3 months for more inconsistent balance changes that the players seem to have no actual input for?

MagDK has waited for sustain help in PvE for a year now, and they just made it worse by giving Power Lash a cooldown AND giving Off-Balance a cooldown.

All my MagDK-playing friends are starting to hate ESO. That's a big problem.

Zinaroth

Rainraven wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I think the point of this thread has been missed... This is the non salty DONT QQ thread. Unsure if people got that!!!!

Being patronizing counts as at least a little salty. And it does set a tone. What response would you have predicted? I'm genuinely curious.

People who draw conclusions based on opinion and feeling instead of empirical data and evidence and then disregard/critisize the opposite view should expect to be patronized and ridiculed.

Sure the thread sets a tone but what you percieve as salt I interpretate as a general annoyance with the lack of cognition on these forums.

It can be wildly entertaining to watch the hypocrisy unfold when the same people who celebrated the nerfing of Templar are now crying over Dragonknight nerfs before having even experienced them, but it really sucks when you're trying to create a constructive community - like Alcast is - or want to properly discuss certain aspects of the game.

Most people only provide useless static in the form of own opinion and feelings accompanied by anecdotal experiences and then make wild conclusions based on these - very few people actually bother to collect the data and make the analysis and Alcast is one of these people.

So I think he is in his right mind to make this post and the people who actually gets offended by it should probably look inwards and reflect upon how they conduct themselves on these forums and why they're getting offended in the first place - because Alcast is wrong (hint; he almost never is) or because he is actually touching upon a general problem which they have contributed in creating?

Mic1007

Asardes wrote: »

At the next PTS:

Patch 4.0.2 (Summerset Isle)

Base Game
Introducing spell crafting system to the game, allowing players to customize and use various spells

Class balance
We reduced the damage and healing done by class abilities by about 20% and increased their cost by 10%
Developer comments:

We nerfed class abilities into the ground in order to make crafted spells a meaningful choice for players

I'm already QQing, and this isn't even remotely real yet.

Zinaroth

Mic1007 wrote: »

Class balance
We reduced the damage and healing done by class abilities by about 20% and increased their cost by 10%

Are those the new Templar patch notes?

Asardes

Zinaroth wrote: »

Mic1007 wrote: »

Class balance
We reduced the damage and healing done by class abilities by about 20% and increased their cost by 10%

Are those the new Templar patch notes?

Brielle the Templar: I have Channeled Focus!
Hides-his-Shalks the Warden: I have Blue Betty!
Bawyn Redoran the DK: [cries for off-balance]

DoonerSeraph

Alcast wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

ZunaRoath wrote: »

Thank Kyne someone posts a guide for people who don't seem to understand how it works! Thanks Alcast!

Bet one day they QQ about something that when they test they actually like so their QQ was for abolutely nothing. So typical.

This happened a lot with Morrowind. Seeing people flip out and rage, then a week after launch telling others to "git gud" and "L2P" over the same issues.

There were people leaving and uninstalling the game before even testing (because limited beta/NDA) who a month or two later had to come back looking rather sheepish.

I fully understand peoples dislike for changes, we've all seen them hit our favourite characters by this point, but come on... every. bloody. update.

But even then, that does not prove that changes made in MW (that I call Moron-Wind btw) were great for the game. I can understand people doing too much damage, skipping mechanics, that should not happen and we (the part of the playerbase who disagrees with the suastain nerf) were ok with it. But I seriously think they screwed up on "how" to solve the problem. IMO they could just nerf CP (that is a constant power creep issue, being the cap increased every patch) and adjust some overperforming skills damage-wise. Heavy attacking wasnt fun there and is not fun now. It takes from class identity, takes from build diversity, now so much people runs heavy attack based rotations. With light attack rotations combas was more fluid and fast paced, some adjustments to make animation cancelling easier or not that importand would accomplish the "lower the ceiling and raising the floor" that was parroted by ZOS so many times that I wonder if they really know what that means. I would love to see sustain back with nerfed damage. What worries me the most is how they refuse to eat the humble pie and admit "Maybe people dont like heavy attacking that much". They do a Rube Goldberg convoluted patch to address something remotely related. Please, lets just use the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid), if the damage is the problem, address damage directly.

FlamingBeard

Zinaroth wrote: »

Rainraven wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I think the point of this thread has been missed... This is the non salty DONT QQ thread. Unsure if people got that!!!!

Being patronizing counts as at least a little salty. And it does set a tone. What response would you have predicted? I'm genuinely curious.

People who draw conclusions based on opinion and feeling instead of empirical data and evidence and then disregard/critisize the opposite view should expect to be patronized and ridiculed.

Sure the thread sets a tone but what you percieve as salt I interpretate as a general annoyance with the lack of cognition on these forums.

It can be wildly entertaining to watch the hypocrisy unfold when the same people who celebrated the nerfing of Templar are now crying over Dragonknight nerfs before having even experienced them, but it really sucks when you're trying to create a constructive community - like Alcast is - or want to properly discuss certain aspects of the game.

Most people only provide useless static in the form of own opinion and feelings accompanied by anecdotal experiences and then make wild conclusions based on these - very few people actually bother to collect the data and make the analysis and Alcast is one of these people.

So I think he is in his right mind to make this post and the people who actually gets offended by it should probably look inwards and reflect upon how they conduct themselves on these forums and why they're getting offended in the first place - because Alcast is wrong (hint; he almost never is) or because he is actually touching upon a general problem which they have contributed in creating?

White-knighting streamers won't get you anywhere around here.

It's a valid complaint to ask that ZOS not wait THREE MONTHS between balance changes (especially when the changes are so out-of-left-field that it confuses players) that maybe we can more efficiently achieve that much-elusive "combat balance" they talk about.

Instead of dishing out new balance-destroying sets with dungeon DLCs, perhaps they should balance the game itself first.

mouton

Turelus wrote: »

... looking rather sheepish.

Somebody summoned me ?

Turelus wrote: »

I fully understand peoples dislike for changes, we've all seen them hit our favourite characters by this point, but come on... every. bloody. update.

And remember, for 1 personne raging about a change, 9 others will like it, find it fair or just don't care. They'll simply not say it or adapt. Some people don't like to be moved out of their confort zone. But ZOS is not forgetting these 9 others, just because 1 is screaming louder than the others i guess.

You'll all find another way to get your DPS back, maybe a bit more difficult than before, but, hey, that's the fun as i guess you're good players !

Zer0oo

How about some post from the combat/balance team explaining there thoughts behind the changes and maybe including the internal testing from the devs them self or some calculations like they did with the blockcost changes in the past? Or in general some feedback to the player what they think about their feedback.
@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_Wrobel,

funguy

Alcast wrote: »

Everyone is loosing their minds, but did someone test the changes yet? No, because the PTS is not even up. Like always, people start QQing before they even test things and that leads to MORE unnecessary nerfs. Once the stuff that ppl QQed about gets a nerf, people realize its weak (it always was ppl just did not test) and then they go to the forum AGAIN and QQ for buffs. /facepalm

Here a simple guide:
Step 1. QQ
Step 2. Test
Step 1. Test
Step 2. QQ

ZOS repeatedly said that they will take a look at overall class balance in the next upcoming Expansion. Not saying it will be balanced (because the main combat lead dev has a very limited understanding of the game), but that is the reason why you do not see a lot of changes.

I dont get it why ppl still listen to u... u obviously sold out long time ago....

We not QQ here for buffs... If u undersdtand ur class, u will know what changes it will make with out testing.
We not talking here about nerf of few Ks of DPS (wont care even if they nerf total DPS to 10k max) it change of style that class (MagDK) play... I know we will find other way to DPS (we always do)...
It just their "balance" is to nerf something and boost other and to see what will happend...
Problem is that they nerf 1 class and boost other.... And it not how CHANGES work... if u take something give something in return... Thats how it should be....
So what they did nerf of whip... ok we will find other skills to use... change of my combat style... ok i will learn few more tricks (mean new style) i not that old dog... But what they gave in return??

Draconic Power
Reflective Scale: Fixed an issue where recasting this ability and its morphs would not refresh the amount of projectile reflections allowed.

Earthen Heart
Ash Cloud: Fixed an issue where this ability and its morphs could sometimes expire early, causing you to miss the final tick of
damage.

.... it fixes... not boost... not exchange...

About tank they nerf Block Enchant... so we can use others... im ok with that... want us to play VIA Heavy Atks... fine
But what they give in return?? Redused 2160 Stam per 0.5sec to 1730... that mean from 746.5stam\0.5sec (with out shield and enchants) to 598stam\0.5sec... And now it 140stam\0.5sec (with out shield but with 3 enchants) they want us to jump from 140 to 598.... ok it hard, but possible...

But all i ask: (wrote it in other discussion, but will copy to here maybe they read yours more).

1)That EVERY weapon heavy atk should regen both stam and mag resources.
Thats will help to tanks with heavy atk play and to Mag DK with Skill lost.... Also will add some profit too hibrids and other strange casual players.

2)Best is that Light and Heavy Atk scale from ur max resource and not Staff-mag, Rest-Stamina. It could make more crazy play styles like Bow+Staff... And add more freedom of choice thats they promisted... BUT... "2)" we can w8 till next big patch.... no rush in it

Jamini

@Alcast

I would be on the PTS, but I don't really have enough free space (nor the money to buy more for several months) to install a second copy of the game. ESO is a huge game, and I don't want to uninstall a large chunk of my steam library for two-three hours of testing.

But seriously, do you honestly think that one of the least-desired classes in raids and one of the worst open-world PvP classes, one that already struggles to be relevant in a great deal of content, really needs to get hit with the nerfbat again?

This is something like the fifth or sixth nerf to Dragonknights in a row, and outside of a few very notable individuals magDK is not used much at all. I honestly can't see a situation where the changes here are going to make the class more viable, when it's already very low on the totem pole for PvE DPS (and sub-par in PvP content that aren't duels.)

Kolzki

And don’t forget to tag as many ZOS staff as possible when you QQ. I’m sure they love that stuff