What The...

Quantum_V

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

All DKs do is complain yet they remain the strongest class in a 1v1 patch after patch

OK, shall we change cyrodiil to a 1v1 battleground?

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

This is a huge buff to magicka DK in PvP, and those are already performing VERY WELL.

Live. I can power lash an opponent, interrupt them, and powerlash again, or dodge offbalance, and powerlash again. I can run a charged lighting for more PL. I can't do this anymore.

Dodge fix is a given, it was an old bug. But 3s cooldown is shaky. Because now if someone dodges it, you are SOL. It should be no cooldown. But consume offbalance if it stuns, or if it PLs twice. That way its not permanently spammable, but get can be used 2x in a row if the stun function doesn't work. After that offbalance would need to be reapplied.

Then don't even start on PvE.

OMG can't stop laughting Interrupt ? WHAT do you interrupt in PvP Dark deal ? Snipe ? Hwo is dump enough to play with interreptable abilities and stay in a magicka DK range ? And What the hell do you do with your cps for having 120 in the atronach ? And why you do dodge on a magicka DK for putting ennemies off balance ?

Are you joking ? I'm used to dk non sens for trying to buff and defending their class, but here is a true l2p issue.

What do you interrupt? Resses, dark deals, jbeam spammers (templars are melee, and don't run away to cast.) pets etc. Breath is a life saver in many accounts. Relics in BGs.

Rolling to get out of roots because mist is bad and setting the enemy offbalance. This one requires weird CP settup so isn't really done. But I have seen some niche builds that use it for builds with lightning staff (heavy/light CP) and some high MAA, those that try to max PL for healing.

And then lighting staffs, which you conveniently missed off. That is decently common, even one such build on the forums.

"Hwo is dump enough" to think this is directly a buff for the "overperforming" DKs. Its not a buff, its not a nerf, its just some *** balance.

You don't know how work dk. Actually on live you need to strike first an ennemy you immobilised before to have access to power lash. Now you can directly have power lash immedialty after immobilized/stunning someone, and this is a HUGE buff for burst. You gain 1s.

A lightning staff dks, outside of not being viable is not gonna dodge, because he need stamina for cc break.

Read patch notes again. That is not how powerlash works.

Aedaryl

Quantum_V wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

All DKs do is complain yet they remain the strongest class in a 1v1 patch after patch

OK, shall we change cyrodiil to a 1v1 battleground?

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

This is a huge buff to magicka DK in PvP, and those are already performing VERY WELL.

Live. I can power lash an opponent, interrupt them, and powerlash again, or dodge offbalance, and powerlash again. I can run a charged lighting for more PL. I can't do this anymore.

Dodge fix is a given, it was an old bug. But 3s cooldown is shaky. Because now if someone dodges it, you are SOL. It should be no cooldown. But consume offbalance if it stuns, or if it PLs twice. That way its not permanently spammable, but get can be used 2x in a row if the stun function doesn't work. After that offbalance would need to be reapplied.

Then don't even start on PvE.

OMG can't stop laughting Interrupt ? WHAT do you interrupt in PvP Dark deal ? Snipe ? Hwo is dump enough to play with interreptable abilities and stay in a magicka DK range ? And What the hell do you do with your cps for having 120 in the atronach ? And why you do dodge on a magicka DK for putting ennemies off balance ?

Are you joking ? I'm used to dk non sens for trying to buff and defending their class, but here is a true l2p issue.

What do you interrupt? Resses, dark deals, jbeam spammers (templars are melee, and don't run away to cast.) pets etc. Breath is a life saver in many accounts. Relics in BGs.

Rolling to get out of roots because mist is bad and setting the enemy offbalance. This one requires weird CP settup so isn't really done. But I have seen some niche builds that use it for builds with lightning staff (heavy/light CP) and some high MAA, those that try to max PL for healing.

And then lighting staffs, which you conveniently missed off. That is decently common, even one such build on the forums.

"Hwo is dump enough" to think this is directly a buff for the "overperforming" DKs. Its not a buff, its not a nerf, its just some *** balance.

You don't know how work dk. Actually on live you need to strike first an ennemy you immobilised before to have access to power lash. Now you can directly have power lash immedialty after immobilized/stunning someone, and this is a HUGE buff for burst. You gain 1s.

A lightning staff dks, outside of not being viable is not gonna dodge, because he need stamina for cc break.

Read patch notes again. That is not how powerlash works.

Misread your'e right, thanks for the correction. But it doesn't change the fact that dk got buffed.

ak_pvp

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

All DKs do is complain yet they remain the strongest class in a 1v1 patch after patch

OK, shall we change cyrodiil to a 1v1 battleground?

Aedaryl wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

This is a huge buff to magicka DK in PvP, and those are already performing VERY WELL.

Live. I can power lash an opponent, interrupt them, and powerlash again, or dodge offbalance, and powerlash again. I can run a charged lighting for more PL. I can't do this anymore.

Dodge fix is a given, it was an old bug. But 3s cooldown is shaky. Because now if someone dodges it, you are SOL. It should be no cooldown. But consume offbalance if it stuns, or if it PLs twice. That way its not permanently spammable, but get can be used 2x in a row if the stun function doesn't work. After that offbalance would need to be reapplied.

Then don't even start on PvE.

OMG can't stop laughting Interrupt ? WHAT do you interrupt in PvP Dark deal ? Snipe ? Hwo is dump enough to play with interreptable abilities and stay in a magicka DK range ? And What the hell do you do with your cps for having 120 in the atronach ? And why you do dodge on a magicka DK for putting ennemies off balance ?

Are you joking ? I'm used to dk non sens for trying to buff and defending their class, but here is a true l2p issue.

What do you interrupt? Resses, dark deals, jbeam spammers (templars are melee, and don't run away to cast.) pets etc. Breath is a life saver in many accounts. Relics in BGs.

Rolling to get out of roots because mist is bad and setting the enemy offbalance. This one requires weird CP settup so isn't really done. But I have seen some niche builds that use it for builds with lightning staff (heavy/light CP) and some high MAA, those that try to max PL for healing.

And then lighting staffs, which you conveniently missed off. That is decently common, even one such build on the forums.

"Hwo is dump enough" to think this is directly a buff for the "overperforming" DKs. Its not a buff, its not a nerf, its just some *** balance.

You don't know how work dk. Actually on live you need to strike first an ennemy you immobilised before to have access to power lash. Now you can directly have power lash immedialty after immobilized/stunning someone, and this is a HUGE buff for burst. You gain 1s.

A lightning staff dks, outside of not being viable is not gonna dodge, because he need stamina for cc break.

No. You cannot. Where did you get that idea from?

The "buff" side of it, is that there is no cooldown on flame lash setting CC'd targets offbalance. No change to the strike first>power lash.

Ragnaroek93

Kilandros wrote: »

Zero experience.

I'm just looking at mDK objectively. I recognize where they're too strong (i.e. vs dodge roll builds) and where being able to Power Lash more often isn't a bad thing (block builds, dmg shield builds).


It's called balance.

Sorry, but I don't agree that it's balanced to have an ability be dodged and then set on cooldown.[/quote]

Do you actually realise that almost none of your abilities are dodgeable? Does any mag Dk really think it's fine to have an undodgeable super strong dot, undodgeable "spammable", undodgeable gapcloser (which isn't used by 99% of the mag Dks for whatever reason), undodgeable ultimate, undodgeable CC and an undodgeable high dmg proc set on top of that? I guess they do, since I still see them complaining about Cloak surpressing dots (while mag Dk is the class which has the least issues to prevent a nb from cloaking). Other medium armor builds than nightblade have even less chances against a mag Dk, it's a roflstomp, period.

Edit: Of course I agree on the PvE part, mag Dk really should get buffed here if it's clearly underperforming.

rustic_potato

Although RIP mDKS in PVE, from a PVP perspective this is awesome. No more unkillable lash spamming DKs.

Markrox

Powerlash being dodgeable breaks up the classic meteor, fossilise, whip, powerlash combo into something more manageable for medium armour to take, which is a good thing. Being dotted up, nuked by undodgeable valkyn skoria then hit by the above combo was brutal.

Powerlash is still a free, hard hitting follow up. If it's dodged, the target should remain off balance, and therefore it should remain available, to time between dodge roll evade frames as other classes have to do.

If you look at combat as a whole, single target abilities being dodgeable, and aoe being undodgeable as rules helps combat feel more coherent. Changes that clean up the game are good.

Passifest

In pvp whether it is a nerf or buff is murky. The flame lash change in pvp could be seen as a "buff", negligible and doesn't work vs multiple targets(yay an already *** open world class gets shittier) but sure. I mean I guess you could get 10% extra dmg via the cp passive but it is realistically a 1 second reduction in flame lash procing if using a classic dk build. On the other hand it is also a nerf to lightning staff dks making them non-viable as they relied on being able to continually proc power lash and also the lash is dodgable so that is also another nerf.

The main point of concern is from a PVE perspective where mdks completely relied on the continual procing of power lash for sustain and dmg which was the whole point of the original change in the first place. *** just doesn't make sense.

acw37162

Haven’t tested this and probably won’t get around to it but this is defiantly ass just on the optics of it.

Quantum_V

rustic_potato wrote: »

Although RIP mDKS in PVE, from a PVP perspective this is awesome. No more unkillable lash spamming DKs.

If an mDK is dealing actual damage to you and you consider him unkillable it boils down to one of the two conclusions:

Either your build is bad or it's a deep l2p issue...

rustic_potato

Quantum_V wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Although RIP mDKS in PVE, from a PVP perspective this is awesome. No more unkillable lash spamming DKs.

If an mDK is dealing actual damage to you and you consider him unkillable it boils down to one of the two conclusions:

Either your build is bad or it's a deep l2p issue...

I didnt say the mDK was killing anyone. I just said unkillable. The heal was too strong to burst down mDKs providing support to zergs that could mow you down with damage.

ak_pvp

Synatx mess.

CrazYDunm3r

The only thing I think is quite frustrating, is that lash in general is just slow. The real burst actually hides a lot in your dots in PvP: dots can be easily cleansed. But counters need to exist, so I get why it is in the game. Just as stamblades get hurt by us a lot, they indeed needed some counterplay. Just in general, I still think an undodgable power lash is a good thing (burning embers shouldn't be undodgable): we don't have defile (except ult), we don't have mobility, wings is often buggy (if the PTS notes are right, it might be fixed, but we will see), fossilize is still not fixed and doesn't work sometimes and we got pretty bad sustain (not impossible I agree, was speaking in general). We don't do anything special anymore like other classes, and all we had that was special has been nerfed the past years. I still love to play a DK, but this is my opinion about it.

Vaoh

Jamini wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

.....notice the extremely subtle hint that Sorc is still overperforming

Compared to DK, Sorc is very easy and effective to play in all aspects of the game. Offbalance changes are going to hurt them a bit yes, but they are still far easier to sustain and get good numbers on than DK has been in the last year.

Then again, I shouldn't be surprised that a sorc-only fanboy is going to go spouting off nonsense about sorc not being strong and effective.

"Then again, I shouldn't be surprised that a sorc-only fanboy is going to go spouting off nonsense about sorc not being strong and effective." says a lot about you tbh. Can't hold a constructive conversation when you have no fact-based points to make?

I play all classes, but I do main Sorc (probably moreso Warden these days) - that gives me more insight into how Sorcs are doing every patch, not less. I've completed all trial hardcodes and have played since launch, so I understand fundamentally where Sorcs stand compared to other classes and what makes them valuable, viable, etc. There was a time when Sorc was ridiculous and OP in PvE but that was a looooong time ago. Dramatic changes have happened overtime.

Next patch Mag NB will be the only Mag DPS used with maybe one Mag Sorc for their Conduit synergy to proc Alkosh and ofc easy upkeep of concussion/burning to buff the abilities of Mag NB. Definitely the easiest to use in PvE, though actually being good with them in PvP is not easy (rarely see good Mag Sorcs anymore cause they all rolled Stam classes), and killing them has been easy (at least for me) for a very long time now due to their clunky nature, highly telegraphed single target burst, and blatant hard-counters.

I agree, Sorc is very easy to play in PvE. You can be highly effective using Sorc without very much skill at all which is awesome for newer players. However, their "ceiling", which is like the highest level you can play them in PvE, does not put out the necessary DPS numbers to compete with NB meaning that the Off-balance changes are going to legit ruin Sorcs.
On top of this Mag NB is getting a substantial buff that makes them as easy to play as Sorcs, probably removing the need for a Sorc entirely. Mag DK/Warden/Sorc/Templar are likely going to become almost irrelevant in PvE. Im actually happy NB got the buff because it's awesome for the functionality of the class, but all four of the other Mag classes need help in PvE.

PvP-wise mostly the complaints are all opinions and ppl getting getting salty, but in PvE the position each class stands at is obvious and needs adjustment.

Nox_Noir

Aedaryl

Nox_Noir wrote: »

Amazing Can you make one for PvP ?

Minno

Nox_Noir wrote: »

don't give them crown store costume ideas!

Vaoh

Nox_Noir wrote: »

LOL. Sad but wow is it accurate

Malthorne

DILLY DILLY

Kilandros

Hollery wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

Zero experience.

I'm just looking at mDK objectively. I recognize where they're too strong (i.e. vs dodge roll builds) and where being able to Power Lash more often isn't a bad thing (block builds, dmg shield builds).


It's called balance.

Sorry, but I don't agree that it's balanced to have an ability be dodged and then set on cooldown.

Stamblades have dealt with this for years now (Incap), and the cooldown is much longer...

Do you honestly think Power Lash is in the same league as Incap? Really?

They both hit hard... And Power Lash gives you a BoL heal over 2 seconds. Incap puts a debuff on the target and doesn't heal you BUT the debuff is really nice... So yeah, close

They aren't even remotely close. Unless of course by "close" you mean that they are both abilities and that they both do things. Then yes I suppose they are in fact close by those measurements. Just like Destro Ult and Empowering Sweep are "close" because they're both ultimates that do things.

DDuke

Kilandros wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

Zero experience.

I'm just looking at mDK objectively. I recognize where they're too strong (i.e. vs dodge roll builds) and where being able to Power Lash more often isn't a bad thing (block builds, dmg shield builds).


It's called balance.

Sorry, but I don't agree that it's balanced to have an ability be dodged and then set on cooldown.

Stamblades have dealt with this for years now (Incap), and the cooldown is much longer...

Do you honestly think Power Lash is in the same league as Incap? Really?

They both hit hard... And Power Lash gives you a BoL heal over 2 seconds. Incap puts a debuff on the target and doesn't heal you BUT the debuff is really nice... So yeah, close

They aren't even remotely close. Unless of course by "close" you mean that they are both abilities and that they both do things. Then yes I suppose they are in fact close by those measurements. Just like Destro Ult and Empowering Sweep are "close" because they're both ultimates that do things.

Well, I do get 15,5k tooltip on Power Lash with all self buffs on my high dmg mDK - a typical rollerblade Incap is around 16k tooltip fully buffed, so they are kinda close

A gankblade will ofc have significantly higher tooltip (closer to 20k), but they are a dying breed in PvP - hard to come across.

Joy_Division

I think time will tell when it comes to DKs in PvP.

In PvE, they (and magic melee in general), are bad and got worse, which is not something that should happen in a patch.

AverageJo3Gam3r

Qbiken wrote: »

F

Vaoh

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think time will tell when it comes to DKs in PvP.

In PvE, they (and magic melee in general), are bad and got worse, which is not something that should happen in a patch.

Mag DKs are in such a bad spot PvE-wise it’s terrible to see. ZOS obviously knows too so idk why they leave it this way

JamieAubrey

rustic_potato

Vaoh wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think time will tell when it comes to DKs in PvP.

In PvE, they (and magic melee in general), are bad and got worse, which is not something that should happen in a patch.

Mag DKs are in such a bad spot PvE-wise it’s terrible to see. ZOS obviously knows too so idk why they leave it this way

It very simple from ZOS perspective. You need 30k ST dps to clear all content in the game. mDKs can get that with just a lazy HA build so in ZOS' eyes the DPS floor is high enough that the ceiling doesnt matter.

ZOS usually forgets that when the floor and ceiling are the same it means that the house has collapsed.

arkansas_ESO

Kilandros wrote: »

Zero experience.

I'm just looking at mDK objectively. I recognize where they're too strong (i.e. vs dodge roll builds) and where being able to Power Lash more often isn't a bad thing (block builds, dmg shield builds).


It's called balance.

Sorry, but I don't agree that it's balanced to have an ability be dodged and then set on cooldown.[/quote]

NB's been dealing with it for years now with Merciless Resolve, you'll be fine

Vaoh

rustic_potato wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think time will tell when it comes to DKs in PvP.

In PvE, they (and magic melee in general), are bad and got worse, which is not something that should happen in a patch.

Mag DKs are in such a bad spot PvE-wise it’s terrible to see. ZOS obviously knows too so idk why they leave it this way

It very simple from ZOS perspective. You need 30k ST dps to clear all content in the game. mDKs can get that with just a lazy HA build so in ZOS' eyes the DPS floor is high enough that the ceiling doesnt matter.

ZOS usually forgets that when the floor and ceiling are the same it means that the house has collapsed.

That was put very well lol. Good point.

Qbiken

Dracane wrote: »

This looks like a buff to me, compared to live.
People are angry because whip was OP for 2 weeks and it's being taken away before it sees the light of day.
We've all been there, not only DKs. First weeks pts makes you happy and then it's being taken away before it goes live.

People are "mad" because PvE gets totally screwed over. MagDK been dead for 6 months in PvE and will be even more dead for couple more months. For PvP sure it´s a buff, but for PvE it´s a huge nerf.

Domander wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Hollery wrote: »

All DKs do is complain yet they remain the strongest class in a 1v1 patch after patch

Tell me about it...

I'm looking at these changes & I'm seeing buffs vs builds mDK wasn't super strong against before & nerfs (undodgeability being fixed) vs builds mDK just rolled over.


I mean, what's the problem? Can any mDK tell me? <.<

In PvP, you get two Power Lashes after CC or roots (rather than just one that consumes Off Balance immediately).

In PvE, you're no longer bringing down the whole group by stealing Off Balance from targets.

I honestly think it's kind of ridiculous that dps mdk weren't using the dps morph, probably a big reason for some of these changes.

@DDuke MagDK "stealing" off-balance was never the problem, every stambuild using heavy attack in their rotation did they same thing, so not the reason magDK wasn´t viable for endgame PvE (viable sure, but in comparison to other melee classes/builds). Off-balance worked inconsistently and was hard to utilize with the heavy attack META. The best solution would´ve been to keep the "bugged" off-balance on the PTS where it would stay as long as you refreshed it, but in exchange:
- Remove the extra resource return on heavy attacks
- Remove the extra damage on off-balanced enemies
- Remove/nerf or rework the exploiter passive

At least I can rework my DK to something similar to your latest magDK PvP build and have some fun with it at least, but for PvE it doesn´t look like I´ll play it outside of vMA anymore.

@Domander People were using the other morph because you couldn´t SUSTAIN molten whip, and now it´s even worse. The extra resourcereturn on HA will not help the slightest, and more people than I know that´s true. The chance to off-balance would´ve been ok if ZOS reverted the sustain changes to DK´s they did in Morrowind, but I don´t see it happening anytime soon.

Masel

I love how they indirectly nerfed asylum destruction staffs through the off-balance changes...

Masel

Nox_Noir wrote: »

Chris at his finest