Reasons for dynamic population caps Vivec EU edition:

Anazasi

Well this explains why NA PC Vivec, AD is constantly pushed by overwhelming numbers during EU Primetime.

IxSTALKERxI

Anazasi wrote: »

Well this explains why NA PC Vivec, AD is constantly pushed by overwhelming numbers during EU Primetime.

Does it?

NightbladeMechanics

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos wrote: »

I just came back to pvp this week after a loong hiatus in pve land.
Started playing in Sotha Sil. Seems it is a bit more balanced (from a faction domination standpoint) from what i've seen hitherto.

I log out at around 03-05 CET, so very late.

Too bad non CP isn't balanced from a gameplay standpoint too!

Jawasa

@Anazasi How? During EU prime ad is down to 3-5 keeps Max most days.

Anazasi

Jawasa wrote: »

@Anazasi How? During EU prime ad is down to 3-5 keeps Max most days.

So the OP shows EU server vivec and AD is pretty much dominating the map there. My guess is the players from EU are on the NA server. The DC group IA is a well know EU group that comes in on the NA server from roughly 3pm EST time which would be EU prime time and runs the map with extremely large numbers. By the time it becomes US East coast primetime 6 or 7 PM est time the AD population peaks and recovers most of the map on NA Vivec.

Now i'm just guessing of course because we have no access to the account data that ZOS has but, if i was playing on a EU server and AD was dominating on the only 30 day CP campaign like what the OP is showing I would migrate to a new place to. The sad part instead of ZOS opening up another server to possibly spread the load out for EU they ignored it and the players simply came to the NA server. The issue overall is now the NA server is really no better off than the EU server with the only difference being its blue instead of yellow.

But i have to hand it the NA AD players. We've been taking this entire migration thing pretty well.

LarsS

Have no Idea what IA standard for

Jawasa

But ad dont control it during EU prime time it's in the off hours that ad point the map on vivec EU atleast from My exp playing as ep.

WeyounTM

Well I have to agree that having a totally yellow map is really boring for this one too. But posting such screenshots only shows a little aspect of a more underlying problem.
I could easily post some screenshots too from 5 AM CET when I usually start playing. More often then not AD got pushed to the door keeps, there is a red or blue emp since 2 AM and you are receiving a warm welcome from Zerg Squad or the likes who defend BlackBoot or Bloodmayne.
But once AD gets into more organized state and the groups starts to form...it all changes. Sometimes bit by bit....but lately (sadly) pretty fast. And yeah, having a yellow map at 7 AM CET is not fun.

I dunno if on the EP and DC side there are no players around who then actually take all the usual "lfg"ers and form a group as well. I do know that AD zone chat is full of people who "lfg" around. And I do know that some of the DC/EP players actually join on their AD toons once the map starts turning. And that is a problem which I assume only got worse because of the transmutation stones at the end of the campaign.
Since you can earn these stones on mulitiple toons in multiple factions....most will go the easy route and log in to the faction that is currently pushing the map.

I guess faction pride...playing for only one alliance....went out of the window a long time ago. And those who still use this kind of codex will never change the minds of those who actually are only there for AP or winning. I will still play AD no matter what since my main is AD. But you should realize that those people are in the minority...

I do realize that playing with your other friends on another alliance can be fun and useful, so I guess ZOS will never revert the change back. But ZOS should put you at least on a one hour cooldown to log onto your faction-X-toon in Cyro. That will also prevent salty players logging into their AD toons and cursing in zone chat.

Before you call me unemployed or a no-lifer and no-skill player because I play at different hours then you do....keep in mind that Cyro is 24/7 and your primetime is usually lagtime where tight ball groups press their one "we-win" button while the other players wait 10 seconds for their buttons to react only to get a "You cant do that while dead message" popping up. Dunno if that is more skilled gameplay to be honest.

In any case...have a nice day ;-)

Derra

WeyounTM wrote: »

Well I have to agree that having a totally yellow map is really boring for this one too. But posting such screenshots only shows a little aspect of a more underlying problem.
I could easily post some screenshots too from 5 AM CET when I usually start playing. More often then not AD got pushed to the door keeps, there is a red or blue emp since 2 AM and you are receiving a warm welcome from Zerg Squad or the likes who defend BlackBoot or Bloodmayne.
But once AD gets into more organized state and the groups starts to form...it all changes. Sometimes bit by bit....but lately (sadly) pretty fast. And yeah, having a yellow map at 7 AM CET is not fun.

I think the screenshots do exactly what i want them to do.
They document that the current ava and campaign reward system does not encourage actual pvp encounters but rather logging all into one faction and unicoloring the map.
It´s not important for my argument which faction does it on which campaign (i´d be doing the same if i played ad instead of ep).

The symptom of players hopping on the dominant faction joining vivec AD to raid empty keeps could be alleviated somewhat if players simply could not log onto that faction if it creates or further reinforces an unbalanced campaign population.

It currently reaches the point where it becomes unplayable bc there are not even enough players to retake keeps (while ad sits in the scrollkeeps with 15+ waiting for 4 or 5 attackers).

WeyounTM

To be honest I am a bit confused now. You say everyone is just raiding empty keeps because of faction swapping but then you say 15 AD guys defend their keeps.
But defending is less rewarding then taking, is it? Hence why everyone just attacks empty keeps? And if there are some actually dedicated players of an alliance that then dare to defend....that is wrong too?
Sorry, I don't get that.

Again, i am dedicated to AD and maybe there are less people dedicated to EP or DC. Maybe EP and DC need more people leading groups that then in turn can fight AD at that time. I know some names that come to mind. If you actually manage to rally your people behind you...then I guess it will get easier.
As I said before...we AD have those same scenarios in the early mornings too. Only few players around and when for example today 4 of us tried to take Nikel from behind....the blue emp wiped us out. I could have logged off too....but didnt. Eventually we got something going and the night emp was dethroned.

Remember after all this is an AvAvA game mode. You need your factions help to turn things around. Treat other players with respect, join a group and try to make something happen. You cant change those that are just faction hopping. But after your explaination I doubt that this is your main problem

Derra

WeyounTM wrote: »

But after your explaination I doubt that this is your main problem

So what is your explanation that ad outnumbers both enemy factions 2 or 3 to one every morning and the map is almost completely yellow every day?

Quite simply put: Equal opportunity (atleast theoretically) should be enforced by having mechanics that prevent significant numerical advantage of one faction.

Edit: To make things more clear "hopping on the dominant faction" was simply meant as people joining the campaign as AD (for the vivec eu example) when ad outnumberes the other factions regardless if they´re ad diehards or faction swappers.

Sharee

WeyounTM wrote: »

Again, i am dedicated to AD and maybe there are less people dedicated to EP or DC.

Not really. Think about it. What are the odds that the vast majority of people playing at night in vivec just happen to be dedicated to AD? That is statistically unlikely. Statistically, the people able to play at night would be split evenly between the factions.

Unlikely, but possible. However, what are the odds that at the same time, all the reds doing the same to another campaign again just happen to be dedicated to EP? And in a 3rd campaign, all the dedicated DC play, just by pure chance?

What was statistically unlikely just became virtually impossible. You say you are dedicated to AD, and i have no reason to doubt you(i am dedicated to DC after all). But please realize, most of the other AD sweeping the map against zero opposition alongside you are not dedicated AD. They are realm hoppers going for the low-hanging fruit. And they pretty much kill the campaign in the process.

SodanTok

It is not really just vivec or just AD problem. But yes, something should be done. Playing in morning as AD is choice between joining campaign where map is yellow but lively, joining campaign where map is red and dead or joining campaign where map is blue and dead

And at prime time its better not to play at all

xeNNNNN

Master_Kas wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Day1:

HMMMMMMMMMMMM

THE RETURN OF THE BIG BOSS ;[

For those who are "sensitive" this is a joke... please take it as such.

Secret Aldermeri Dominion Skill line;

The boss.

Ultimate; "THE BOSS COMMETH!"

Cost; 1 ultimate

Description: Summon a horde of pugs from your faction at any given time to your side, throw them almost literally at any keep between 6:00 am and 14:00 pm in a day to knock down keep doors and walls like bowling balls and cap them so fast that the other factions are feared for 5 hours with no immunity or break free option.

Morph: "Only BoL boss matters"

New function: Spam breath of life continuously until low health pugs (who for some reason are dying to low level guards) have been fully healed. Gain additional alliance points.

Morph: "The power of the repairing boss compels you!"

New function: Repairing damage too the keep you have just taken, summons an extra horde of players too your side if you have used this ultimate within the last 30 seconds, alliance point gain is increased by 100% for 10 minutes.


Nerf please?

Wish I had this ultimate.

incite

AD's need to get a job

Derra

incite wrote: »

AD's need to get a job

What does that say about the person being able to screenshot it

heng14rwb17_ESO

AD IS THE BEST!
AD IS INVINCIBLE!
AD IS THE ONLY REAL EMP!

Derra

heng14rwb17_ESO wrote: »

AD IS THE BEST!
AD IS INVINCIBLE!
AD IS THE ONLY REAL EMP!

That´s like a fat kid alone on the court doing free throws claiming they´re mvp against their imaginary opponents.

Being best isn´t hard when there is no opposition.

WeyounTM

Sharee wrote: »

What was statistically unlikely just became virtually impossible. You say you are dedicated to AD, and i have no reason to doubt you(i am dedicated to DC after all). But please realize, most of the other AD sweeping the map against zero opposition alongside you are not dedicated AD. They are realm hoppers going for the low-hanging fruit. And they pretty much kill the campaign in the process.

I totally agree with you on that point. It is sometimes beyond stupid that at one point you struggle to get a foot in the map and once the tide turns suddenly a billion random guys follow your group around. And of course after a while you recognize all the names that have been on blue/red before that then just join on our side.
We don't like that too because eventually our dedicated group gets blamed and receives hate whispers for zerging and PvDooring. So yeah, I am all for reverting back the change to let everyone play anywhere. But considering that Rich Lambert and others have emphasized that they want you to be able to play with friends no matter what....this will be not happening for the PvP side of things.

Regarding "dynamic pop locks"....that is just not a viable idea. If you think this to its logical conclusion any faction that is getting its behind whooped will then just log out entirely which then in turns would/should mean that your factions player will get kicked too. "Hey guys, they are about to take the last emp-keep....lets just logg off!".....

And yeah, maybe some AD are unemployed....or maybe they just work different hours....or they have been successfull in their jobs for decades and now are able to enjoy the nicer things in life

Derra

WeyounTM wrote: »

Regarding "dynamic pop locks"....that is just not a viable idea. If you think this to its logical conclusion any faction that is getting its behind whooped will then just log out entirely which then in turns would/should mean that your factions player will get kicked too. "Hey guys, they are about to take the last emp-keep....lets just logg off!".....

Actually it wouldn´t if dynamic pop caps only prevented people from joining the campaign into a dominant faction. If you´re in already you wouldn´t get kicked to prevent the scenario mentioned by you.

incite

Derra wrote: »

incite wrote: »

AD's need to get a job

What does that say about the person being able to screenshot it

Except of Derra ofc, he cool

ilander

Due to being a bit of a no-lifer, I decided to spend some time defending these morningcaps on Vivec. Derra's calculations of relative faction numbers were most definitely an underestimate at least 3 days a week. Some time between 4am and 6am UK time at least half of the week, the yellows were managing 2 bars when the blues and reds are on app. 3-4 players each. I wonder if ZOS realises how demoralising it is to be fighting 40 people with at most, 10% of that number of players.

On top of that, many of these people who are morningcapping are not even pvpers, they're just there for the pvdoor ride and I've seen 4 or 5 non-partied regular blues wipe a group of 20 yellow PVP HEROES because 90% of them play like badly coded bots and open with things like resto staff heavy attacks. They definitely deserve to make a massive contribution to perma-yellow campaign "PVP" victories on Vivec for sure ... NOT

Is this really the true vision ZOS has for PvP as we watch the faction scoreboard points these non-pvpers (and some pvpers of course) made drift exponentially out of reach of either faction within 3 or 4 days of the start of the campaign? It most certainly doesn't encourage any manner of positivity except, I guess, amongst the people who don't actually pvp at respectable times of day against respectable pvpers. The closest they're getting to pvp is killing a couple of Covenant menders using soul trap as their main dps (slight exaggeration but u get the idea)

Sure there are days when guilds like Slaughterhouse take many keeps as well but i don't actually have an issue with that because they're small-middle scale and all experienced players who actually deserve to get points/buffs etc for keep takes or whatever but it seems to be the case that PUGs are more the problem than the regulars and are bolstering the numbers on top of Saras'/Big Boss's regular grp members which, in most cases, are a pretty massive group as it is.

My main worry with introducing dynamic population caps is that there seems to be a massive disparity between actual population on the server and what the bars are reporting a lot of the time and also, having only 4 bars rather than a % full would possibly mean that dynamic pop caps could be quite rigid on how it decides when to let people into the campaign but i honestly can't think of any better solutions than others have suggested with points scoring being reduced according to population bars so that when there is nobody around, campaign scoring can't be taken so far out of sight that it wouldn't require a new catchup mechanism like low pop/low score bonuses (both of which have been exploited in the past)

On the issue of the 132k ap gain from painting a map one colour, you could apply the same points reduction as above for 1 bar/2 bars/3 bars etc. so that it wouldn't be of interest to a lot of people any more. We all know if we left this in the hands of ZOS to make the decision, it wouldn't be particularly well thought out and consideration for player comments/input would be skimmed over, pretty much the same as it does with 95% of the rest of people's pertinent, well thought out suggestions for balance.

Sharee

ilander wrote: »

My main worry with introducing dynamic population caps is that there seems to be a massive disparity between actual population on the server and what the bars are reporting a lot of the time and also, having only 4 bars rather than a % full would possibly mean that dynamic pop caps could be quite rigid on how it decides when to let people into the campaign

Remember that the bars are here only for us to get a rough idea. The algorithm which would decide which players to let in on the other hand would know exactly(down to a single player) how many players each faction has, it does not have to guess.

My idea is that the algorithm would allow for approx. 10% disparity between factions. If blues and reds have 50 players each, it would allow up to 5 more yellows(for a total of 55) into the campaign before putting any more into the queue. This is simply so we don't get a deadlock 50vs50vs50 with noone else allowed in despite the cap being 100 for each faction(for example).

If there is a real(as opposed to perceived) disparity between actual population and what the bars are reporting, the algorithm would not be affected since it does not need to look at bars.

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos

ilander wrote: »

I wonder if ZOS realises how demoralising it is to be fighting 40 people with at most, 10% of that number of players.

They know. Too big of a problem to solve i think, given the resources they put into pvp overall.

Just think about how completely worthless it is to fight for ones faction. They havnt really touched this since beta.
I mean, they could do something as simple as increase the incentives to play for the map in the following way:
Grant 5m AP as a reward to winning faction - can only play in one faction per 30 day campaign.

Something like that. But no... NOTHING.

ilander

"can only play in one faction per 30 day campaign."

I'm pretty sure ZOS were either incapable of or not willing to spend the money fixing the illegal campaign hopping that was going on before they made it a feature and that's why it became a feature. You could already get into a campaign by traveling to grp leader on a campaign you didn't have as your main or guest or get ported in so nothing actually really changed when they made multi-faction play on the one campaign, it just became legal but people were being spotted playing for other factions on the same campaign long before ZOS "allowed" it. Sure it was an exploit but ZOS tends to reward exploiting players by letting them stay in the game despite multiple reports against them showing they've broken the ToS.

AGGROxander_Hamilton

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Aelakhaii_De_Mythos wrote: »

I just came back to pvp this week after a loong hiatus in pve land.
Started playing in Sotha Sil. Seems it is a bit more balanced (from a faction domination standpoint) from what i've seen hitherto.

I log out at around 03-05 CET, so very late.

Too bad non CP isn't balanced from a gameplay standpoint too!

It’s perfectly balanced, magblades are declawed just they way I like it

WeyounTM

So in this version of dynamic pop locks of y'all nobody of the dominating faction will get the boot once the imbalance occurs. Okay, lets look at it from a different angle:
You and your buddies in blue or red dominate during time x of the day. All of a sudden you get a juicy long loading screen and you need to kill the game only to then relog into lovely PvE land. Now you have to wait for the imbalance to fade away while your buddies still are enjoying running around and doing stuff....awesome.
Are you all really that fond of queues in the first place so that you will like to see them all day long? And what about all those players that actually don't play PvP in Cyro at all? Those who want to do the delves, the city quests and the dolmens....or those who go into IC to farm telvar. You tell me that you are willing to sit your time out in Cyro while the majority of your faction is doing those activities?

Because I swear to god I can't count the times when AD has had a pop lock and nobody was around doing anything. You get pushed back to BB and you wonder....where did all those AD go? And that scenario might happen a lot if your idea of dynamic locks comes to fruition.

ilander wrote: »

On top of that, many of these people who are morningcapping are not even pvpers, they're just there for the pvdoor ride and I've seen 4 or 5 non-partied regular blues wipe a group of 20 yellow PVP HEROES because 90% of them play like badly coded bots and open with things like resto staff heavy attacks. They definitely deserve to make a massive contribution to perma-yellow campaign "PVP" victories on Vivec for sure ... NOT

I agree with that. Those that follow the more dedicated groups around are almost always in their PvE gear and using PvE skills. They don't put down siege or if they do they stay in there no matter what and need two dedicated healer to keep them alive. This is quite embarrassing.
But it isnt limited to the morning time or AD. These players are the switcheroinies of Cyro and will join the blue side eventually in the afternoon. Just 2 days ago our small guild group was heading to Glademist in the afternoon while the rest of AD was doing....stuff. We managed to tag the keep while sieging from the mine side. And although we only were 10 players and 4 of those in teamspeak we held our ground against massive numbers of DC and killed them for 15 plus minutes. That is just the reality of Cyro....there are lots and lots of people with questionable skills.

But they need to be there to fill up the place or else all those nice 1vXers wont be able to make some funny youtube montage for the progamer-lot to enjoy

ToRelax

WeyounTM wrote: »

So in this version of dynamic pop locks of y'all nobody of the dominating faction will get the boot once the imbalance occurs. Okay, lets look at it from a different angle:
You and your buddies in blue or red dominate during time x of the day. All of a sudden you get a juicy long loading screen and you need to kill the game only to then relog into lovely PvE land. Now you have to wait for the imbalance to fade away while your buddies still are enjoying running around and doing stuff....awesome.
Are you all really that fond of queues in the first place so that you will like to see them all day long? And what about all those players that actually don't play PvP in Cyro at all? Those who want to do the delves, the city quests and the dolmens....or those who go into IC to farm telvar. You tell me that you are willing to sit your time out in Cyro while the majority of your faction is doing those activities?

Because I swear to god I can't count the times when AD has had a pop lock and nobody was around doing anything. You get pushed back to BB and you wonder....where did all those AD go? And that scenario might happen a lot if your idea of dynamic locks comes to fruition.

Of course I can't get back in if I was removed from Cyro while my faction has significantly more players than the others. That's the whole point. So in that case, either I do something else, ingame or otherwise, or I log on a different faction/campaign.

Forztr

I don't agree with capping populations to ensure that they are balanced but I would like to see scoring changed to take account of the current population. I feel that the current system rewards an early morning cap of the map too much.

On EU Vivec the map is capped daily around 5-6AM GMT and stays low pop and mostly yellow for 6-9 hours before numbers on the other two factions pick up and the map balances out in afternoon. Those hours give AD 300-500 points gain on the day making it impossible for the other two factions to win the campaign.

If a weighted scoring system was introduced based on current campaign population then the campaign would be closer. Two possible systems are either increase the rate at which scores are counted or apply a bonus based on overall campaign population.

Personally, I like the idea of quicker score ticks when the population is high. During primetime, the map can become very dynamic with keeps flipping regularly so quicker score updates would make sense. It may also encourage the player base to spread out more to flip resources for points just before the next score update.

To be honest I hope Cyrodiil gets a shake-up of some sort this year just to freshen things up a bit.

Firstmep

@ZOS_BrianWheeler tagged, a response that you guys are looking to ways to resolve this issue? This isnt just limited to Vivec eu btw, there is a much larger picture here, things have gotten progressively worse since the last change to offensive ap ticks.